Swapping in AWM block w/ AEB head, also manual trans swap

[Spectre1130]

Day one of my build. I have a 1997 A4 Quattro. I hope to make a nice work log of this all. I'm pulling out my AEB motor and auto tranny and replacing it with an AWM block with my AEB head. Also switching my transmission to manual. I have the block bored .5mm over and am going to use supertech pistons with my AEB rods on an auto AWM crank.

[IMG][/IMG]

The first day involved the paint for the block, and starting to put the accessories and pulleys on the block. I got stopped very fast unfortunately because I forgot to grab alot of the bolts from the junkyard when I pulled the motor. I also grabbed the wrong bracket, I got the bracket for the transverse AWM, not the longitudinal. And the biggest frustration was I forgot to get new Main Bearing Bolts. I've never re-used these bolts in previous engine builds, but has anyone else ever done it and had no problems. I don't mind paying for them, but I am needing to build this in 15 days (transferring duty stations) and waiting another 4-7 days for the bolts to be shipped is really going to slow me down. I called into the Audi dealership hoping I could buy some from them if they were in stock, which makes me ask do the 2.0 and 1.8t have the same main bearing bolts?

[IMG][/IMG]

Hopefully tomorrow goes alot better. I have taken more productive poops.

[redline380]

do not reuse main bolts as they are stretch style, as are all important bolts on your car. any vw or audi dealership should be able to get them in a day or two.

[Spectre1130]

Alrighty. I figured so much. Hopefully the stealership can get some fast.

[redline380]

if you absolutely need them, you can always buy ARP main studs from any of a number of suppliers and have them overnighted. it will cost a ton more, but youll have them when you need them, and a stouter alternative

[catbed]

if you absolutely need them, you can always buy ARP main studs from any of a number of suppliers and have them overnighted. it will cost a ton more, but youll have them when you need them, and a stouter alternative

Plus they are reusable so you only have to buy once.

[Caffeinated]

The ARP main studs are really not much more expensive than stock.

[Spectre1130]

I spent $60 at ECStuning last night for the regular bolts to be 2 day shipped. But unfortunately they don't ship Saturdays. So I won't be getting them until Monday. So it looks like no work on this Audi over the weekend. And on a side note, I picked up a 2001 A6 2.7t. It was leaking oil somewhere onto the exhaust manifold. I was planning on fixing that this weekend, but also couldn't get the parts in time.

I thought about doing ARP main studs since I already have the ARP rod bolts, and ARP head studs (looking back on it, I probably should have). But I'm not planning on a huge horsepower motor with this setup. I was mainly wanting to fix my old motor, and allow for a little more horsepower (eventually planning on going to a T28 turbo and tune with an AEM FIC and shoot for 300 whp). I did a cylinder leakdown test about a year ago and they were all pretty bad, and I keep fouling my #4 plug with alot of oil, so I decided it was time for a rebuild.

If I do any work on my motor over the weekend it will probably be very minor, like threading a bolt into a hole.. and subsequently unthreading it from the hole. Or I may grind down the end of my crank, since I'm using an auto crank with a manual tranny. Something to feel productive. Which brings me to a question. I'm going off of Biketsai's DIY http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...ual-Conversion and I noticed he doesn't mention anything about spacers or shims in between the crankshaft and flywheel. When I removed this crankshaft from an auto car, it had 2 1mm shims in between the crankshaft and flexplate, do I use these with the manual setup, or are they for the auto only?

[Artiemas]

I spent $60 at ECStuning last night for the regular bolts to be 2 day shipped. But unfortunately they don't ship Saturdays. So I won't be getting them until Monday. So it looks like no work on this Audi over the weekend. And on a side note, I picked up a 2001 A6 2.7t. It was leaking oil somewhere onto the exhaust manifold. I was planning on fixing that this weekend, but also couldn't get the parts in time.

I thought about doing ARP main studs since I already have the ARP rod bolts, and ARP head studs (looking back on it, I probably should have). But I'm not planning on a huge horsepower motor with this setup. I was mainly wanting to fix my old motor, and allow for a little more horsepower (eventually planning on going to a T28 turbo and tune with an AEM FIC and shoot for 300 whp). I did a cylinder leakdown test about a year ago and they were all pretty bad, and I keep fouling my #4 plug with alot of oil, so I decided it was time for a rebuild.

If I do any work on my motor over the weekend it will probably be very minor, like threading a bolt into a hole.. and subsequently unthreading it from the hole. Or I may grind down the end of my crank, since I'm using an auto crank with a manual tranny. Something to feel productive. Which brings me to a question. I'm going off of Biketsai's DIY http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...ual-Conversion and I noticed he doesn't mention anything about spacers or shims in between the crankshaft and flywheel. When I removed this crankshaft from an auto car, it had 2 1mm shims in between the crankshaft and flexplate, do I use these with the manual setup, or are they for the auto only?

On the 2.7t, it's probably all of the head orieneted gaskets, but mainly the valve cover gaskets. Those will leak the most. The rest just weep oil for the most part.

[Spectre1130]

On the 2.7t, it's probably all of the head orieneted gaskets, but mainly the valve cover gaskets. Those will leak the most. The rest just weep oil for the most part.

Thanks for the input. The guy I bought it off said the mechanic said it was the rear main seal, but I looked around on the car, and it looked like it was leaking higher.

So I bought http://www.ecstuning.com/Audi-C5_A6-...over/ES259658/ last night.

I've also seen mixed reviews on the AEB rods. Some people say they are forged and the bolts are the weak link, others say the rods are not forged and are the weak link themselves. I was under the impression they were not forged, but beefy and the 20mm wrist pin helped and that the bolts were the weak part. Also will an AEB rod hold up to a well tuned 300 whp setup?

[redline380]

Thanks for the input. The guy I bought it off said the mechanic said it was the rear main seal, but I looked around on the car, and it looked like it was leaking higher.

So I bought http://www.ecstuning.com/Audi-C5_A6-...over/ES259658/ last night.

I've also seen mixed reviews on the AEB rods. Some people say they are forged and the bolts are the weak link, others say the rods are not forged and are the weak link themselves. I was under the impression they were not forged, but beefy and the 20mm wrist pin helped and that the bolts were the weak part. Also will an AEB rod hold up to a well tuned 300 whp setup?

the weak point of the rods is the neck. i am not aware of any 1.8t's that came with forged rods. maybe the tt225 did, but i still dont think so.

300awhp is pushing it for those rods. they have been snapped with stock turbos before. i personally wouldnt run anything over a frankenturbo with stock rods, although plenty of people run a 2860 on stock rods. if you are going to have the engine apart, upgrade the rods. plain and simple

[Spectre1130]

Second day of work. Picked up the bracket from a junkyard and did as much as I could. Just waiting on my Main bolts and the block will be going together.

[IMG][/IMG]

Put on the AWM accessory bracket. I accidentally got a Transverse one first, which they don't work for the longitudinal. Also the drivers side motor mount bracket is different otherwise it gets in the way of the oil filter bracket. I removed the viscous fan pulley and am going to run a shorter serpentine belt with an electric fan. Almost all parts bolting onto the AWM block need to be AWM parts as far as I can see except the AC bracket, AC compressor, PS pump, and Alternator. I didn't really see anyone else say that in write-ups so I'm just throwing that out there. As I continue to build the motor I will put up a list of compatible parts between the AEB and AWM.

[Caffeinated]

Looking good! I'm in the process of bolting on the final accessories of my 06A + AEB as well.

[SGS]

Hey OP I know this is kinda off topic but I am stationed in Charleston SC. You wouldnt happen to be at the Navy or the Air Force base there would you?

[Spectre1130]

Hey OP I know this is kinda off topic but I am stationed in Charleston SC. You wouldnt happen to be at the Navy or the Air Force base there would you?

Yes. I am stationed at the Naval Weapons Stations. I'm in the nuc program.

[SGS]

Nice man. thats a hard ass carreer field. i assume you graduated from it and are going to your duty staion. If I wasn't deployed right now I'd be there balls deep helping you. I'm air force and a mechanic on the C-17s on the Air Force Base. Where you headed to? you may have seen my brilliant yellow Audi with the stupid exhaust driving around (plan on buying milltek exhaust when i get back.)

[Seerlah]

Read earlier that you have ARP head "studs". If you have the studs, they are the wrong ones. You will mess up the threads on the block. You need ARP head "bolts" specified for the AWM (06A block).

[redline380]

Read earlier that you have ARP head "studs". If you have the studs, they are the wrong ones. You will mess up the threads on the block. You need ARP head "bolts" specified for the AWM (06A block).

im pretty sure the studs are for 06a block only. they do make 06a bolts as well, but no 058 studs


edit- just looked at ie's website. they are selling studs for both engines

[Raacerx]

Read earlier that you have ARP head "studs". If you have the studs, they are the wrong ones. You will mess up the threads on the block. You need ARP head "bolts" specified for the AWM (06A block).

Huh? ARP makes head studs in 10mm and 11mm.

I've got a set in my 06A block, and a set of 11mm sitting at my desk for the 058 block.

[Seerlah]

ARP has studs for the 058 and bolts for the 06A. I'm positive about this. But I think they recently released a stud kit for the 06A. I am lead to believe IE is wrong with their description, even though they should be masters at this (just did some research and it may be ARP's info is simply wrong, and companies list in their description what ARP has for their bolts). The 058 and 06A have different thread pitches to them. 058 head bolt size is m11 while the 06A (AWM) is m10. How can they list studs for 2000+ if the 2000 is an 058 block and the 2001+ is an 06A block? I am also seeing this listed wrong on other sites.

MJM is correct and gives people fair warning. But look at the 2000+ description, then their warning in italics. You will indefinitely f*ck up your threads and basically trash the block unless you can somehow fix the threads to still carry a threshold for the proper seal. It says not to use in AEB, but look below where it only states AWM and AMB for them. ATW is an 058...2000...listed as ok to use on the top description...and you will f*ck up your threads.

http://www.mjmautohaus.com/catalog/p...oducts_id=3091

Huh? ARP makes head studs in 10mm and 11mm.

I've got a set in my 06A block, and a set of 11mm sitting at my desk for the 058 block.

Not sure how long ago they made studs for the 06A, but in the past there was only bolts for the 06A and studs for the 058.

edit: did a little more research, and there is still not an ARP head "bolt" for the 058. like I said, in the past it was studs for the 058 and bolts for the 06a. not sure how long the arp 06a studs have been out for. but could not have been long.

[Raacerx]

I don't mean to photobomb the thread but: 06A block, ARP stud kit, AEB head. Been out for some time.

[Seerlah]

Not more than 2-3 years. Compared to how old this vehicle is, that is not a long time.

OP, just make sure have get the correct sized studs.

[Spectre1130]

Nice man. thats a hard ass carreer field. i assume you graduated from it and are going to your duty staion. If I wasn't deployed right now I'd be there balls deep helping you. I'm air force and a mechanic on the C-17s on the Air Force Base. Where you headed to? you may have seen my brilliant yellow Audi with the stupid exhaust driving around (plan on buying milltek exhaust when i get back.)

I'm actually transferring to the prototype training they have next. I've completed all the school, now I'm just in hold waiting for the hands on training. I am just unsure as to whether I will have time in my next hold period where I can work on my car.

I will check the studs. What makes them different from the AEB studs? The diameter?

And I get held up yet again. The main bearing kit I bought from integrated engineering came only with the main bearings. I was under the impression it would come with the thrust washers as well. So I have to wait a few more days. Also I accidentally ordered the PCV breather line for the AEB engine and not the AWM. This is just really turning out bad so far.

[Seerlah]

I will check the studs. What makes them different from the AEB studs? The diameter?

11mm diameter vs 10mm. Thing that sucks is you can thread the 10mm into the 11mm, thinking it is correct. Next thing you know you f*cked your threads up. It happens.

[Spectre1130]

Will the 10mm feel a little sloppy in there? I threaded mine in and they seemed pretty snug. I will post some pics. I also put my main bearings in and set my crank in there with some assembly lube to keep my bearings clean. I am however waiting on thrust washers which will show up tomorrow. Also I loosely put the caps and bolts on but was unsure as to the order of the caps, when I took it to the machine shop he just kinda mixed them up. But I did cap one closest to the timing belt side and five closest to the flywheel.

I was however slightly more productive on my 2.7t motor today. I had a bad oil leak and replaced the valve cover gaskets, timing chain tensioner gaskets and the end cap seals. Spent about 3 hours of work on it with a friend and it seems to have fixed the problem. Got the car for $2200 because the guy thought it had a leaky rear main seal and didn't want to replace it.

ARP head studs installed
[IMG][/IMG]

Some bearings installed before assembly lube was added
[IMG][/IMG]

Crank set in place with main cap #1 loosely on
[IMG][/IMG]

Crank in with all caps loosely on
[IMG][/IMG]

[Spectre1130]

Got the thrust washers and installed them. Torqued down mains to 48 ft-lbs plus 90 deg turn.

Tomorrow is the day for motor and transmission extraction.

[Seerlah]

I hope you used assembly lube for those bolts. Not bearing lube but fastener lube (I used ARP assembly lube). Progress looks good.

[Spectre1130]

I hope you used assembly lube for those bolts. Not bearing lube but fastener lube (I used ARP assembly lube). Progress looks good.

For the main bolts? I unfortunately didn't. I completely forgot. :\ I will make sure to use it on my ARP rod studs and head studs though.

[Seerlah]

Your block is still open. Take those bolts out, get replacements, and redo them before you regret it. There was a big discussion on this before. There are Audi mechanics (real dealership mechanics) who say that they don't place assembly lube or any type of lube on the main bolts, while others say they do. Then 034 chimed into the thread and said it was an absolute must.

[Spectre1130]

I just pulled my motor today and transmission today and started the 1 week rental of the shop. I won't be able to wait until Tuesday to get some new main bolts. As bad as it sounds and I know you will criticize for it, but I'm going to chance it. If I was able to get new bolts by Sunday I would, but UPS and Fedex don't overnight on Saturdays or Sundays. Meaning it wouldn't ship til Monday and get there Tuesday.

However when I threaded the bolts in the first time to hold the crank in overnight, I removed them and they had a little oil (not assembly lube) on them about 1/4 of the way up the threads. I didn't wipe off the oil when I installed them and torqued them, so they did have a little lubricant. And I didn't feel them bind at all when I was torquing them.

On a different note, like I said I pulled engine and tranny today. Unfortunately in the first hour of removing the front clip I dropped a pair of pliers that magically fell at the perfect angle to poke a hole in my AC condenser. So I need to pick up another one of those. Also once my motor was pulled I checked my engine mounts and they literally fell in half. So I need some new ones of those by Tuesday or so. Other than that it went all smooth, I didn't take many pictures but will list off what I did to remove it all.

1) started by removing the bumper, unhooking the battery, and draining all fluids
2) to remove the front clip, remove the four torx bolts on either side that bolt the bumper support bars on. On top near your headlights are 2 torx bolts on either side. On the side below your headlight there are also 2 more torx bolts on either end. Then unhook the various wires including your headlight wires, unbolt the power steering cooler, either unbolt or disconnect the A/T cooler lines, drain and unhook the top and bottom radiator hoses, either unbolt or disconnect the AC condenser, disconnect the rubber elbows that go from turbo to hard pre-intercooler pipe and elbow leading to intercooler.
3) unbolt the driveshaft from the transmission, 6 allen bolts
4) at this point, I removed the head with turbo manifold, turbo, and intake manifold since I will be using it all on my new block. To do this: remove coil packs, remove valve cover, remove fuel rail with fuel injectors in it, unhook charge pipe to throttle body hose, unhook the heater hose connection from the back of the head, remove coolant line from the metal coolant line to coolant overflow tank, remove the coolant line from metal coolant pipe to the filter adapter, remove the air box and air intake system, unbolt the turbo from the exhaust, remove bottom turbo cooling line from the block, unbolt the turbo oil drain from oil pan, disconnect the turbo oil line from the crank case breather/oil filter adapter, disconnect vacuum lines, unhook wires, unbolt the head.
5) unbolt the CV axles from the transmission now, 6 torx bolts each axle.
6) at this point I disconnected any wire or hose leading to the block from the engine bay that was not already disconnected
7) go inside the car and remove the shift selector nob, remove the center console, unbolt 4 nuts that bolt the shifter assembly to the body, remove any wires or cables attached to the assembly inside the car, push the assembly down through the hole
8) unbolted the bracket to engine mount nut on either side of the engine, removed the bolt from the transmission bracket to transmission mount
9) hooked up the engine hoist and lifted motor and transmission out. When I did it, I lifted it up until it was at a steep angle with the block higher than transmission, checked for any wires still attached and pulled the motor and tranny out.

If I missed something please chime in, this is all from memory of today. It took me about 8 hours of work (7 hours working 1 hour of lunch and smoking)

Preparing to remove the front clip
[IMG][/IMG]

Block and transmission removed from car
[IMG][/IMG]
[IMG][/IMG]

[A1 A2 German]

That side shot is what I've been looking for forever!

Talk to me about the AC.

What ac bracket did you bolt to the 06A block, the 06A or the 058, or are both the same?

Are you able to use your 058 ac compressor on this 06A block in any way or fashion?

------------------

Drivers side block motor mount bracket, to line up to AEB preface motor mount, use the O6A or 058 mount off the 06A block?

[Spectre1130]

That side shot is what I've been looking for forever!

Talk to me about the AC.

What ac bracket did you bolt to the 06A block, the 06A or the 058, or are both the same?

Are you able to use your 058 ac compressor on this 06A block in any way or fashion?

------------------

Drivers side block motor mount bracket, to line up to AEB preface motor mount, use the O6A or 058 mount off the 06A block?

I am using the 06A bracket with my 058 compressor supposing they work. They look exactly the same to me, but I should know more when I get to work on it Sunday.

I looked at the drivers side motor mount brackets and they look different, I can try to snap some pictures on Sunday. I'm just unsure if the passenger ones are the same or not.

If you need me to snap any other pictures just holler at me, and I will try to remember when I work on it.

[A1 A2 German]

Alright, the AC issue has me kinda relieved as I refuse to vent, open or crack open my system to swap compressors.

I do know, you must use one of each...or others are saying.....one doesn't work. However, when they say one works one doesn't, I don't know what orientation they are stating that from, having swapping the 058's over to the 06A block, or keeping the 06A's on from the get go. So, this leaves to fact, you use 1) 058 motor mount bracket and 1)06A motor mount bracket. Yet, I do not know what side each is on.

I believe, both a 058 and 06A passenger side bracket are the very same part #. So people are swapping the drivers side, yet I do not know what they are using on that side. However not proven fact yet folks.

[Spectre1130]

I will tell you there is a definite difference between the driver side brackets shape. But I didn't try them on the opposite blocks. The 06A one has a relief cut into it to fit around a part that must be bolted onto the motor. The 058 does not have that relief.

Also ECStuning has the passenger side brackets listed as the same for the motors, and the drivers side is engine specific. http://www.ecstuning.com/Audi-B5_A4-...ngine_Bracket/

EDIT: Today after working on the car for a few hours it looks like: Drivers side motor mount brackets are not interchangeable, Passenger side brackets are interchangeable, You have to use the AEB A/C bracket on the 06A motor to use your AEB A/C compressor, alternator will bolt up to either bracket, and power steering pumps are different between the AEB and AWM, and mine will not bolt up to the AWM bracket. However the AEB accessory bracket will bolt to the 06A block, but it will not allow you to attach the thermostat housing. You could probably cut a relief into the AEB bracket so that it will not interfere, then you could use your AEB power steering pump.

[Caffeinated]

You really decided to use your old main bolts? So wait...you went to the trouble of doing head studs, but then used your old already stretched main bolts? I'm failing to understand the logic here.

[redline380]

You really decided to use your old main bolts? So wait...you went to the trouble of doing head studs, but then used your old already stretched main bolts? I'm failing to understand the logic here.

check post 7. it says he bought new bolts from ecs. I hope hes using them

[Spectre1130]

You really decided to use your old main bolts? So wait...you went to the trouble of doing head studs, but then used your old already stretched main bolts? I'm failing to understand the logic here.

Yes, I bought new ones since I wanted to do a decent rebuild and not skimp and risk breaking it. There are some things I will skimp on with this build but not important things.

I put my pistons and rods in today, bolted in my oil pump, cleaned up my cylinder head and replaced the gaskets and seals in it, it is ready to be torqued down, but I'm waiting to get a dust cover plate that has the TDC mark for the crankshaft pulley. I was planning on doing alot more but I had to help my friend replace the U-joint and spark plugs in his Nissan Frontier and then my other friend needed help with his B7 A4 that he was putting coil overs on. I snapped a few pictures today but will wait till I do more work tomorrow and post all those pictures.

BTW I thought I read somewhere that someone said when you do the AEB head on the AWM block you use all the AWM timing components. My friend rounded off the timing belt tensioner roller nut so I had to drill off the bolt head to remove it, only to find that the AWM one I bought doesn't bolt up due to it having a smaller diameter bolt hole. So I need to buy an AEB timing belt tensioner roller now. So if anyone else is thinking about doing AEB head and AWM block, use the AWM timing components on the block and AEB timing components on the head.

EDIT: It looks like ECStuning sells the stud for the timing belt tensioner roller for the AWM. http://www.ecstuning.com/Audi-B5_A4-...ller/ES279996/ Is this the same thread pitch as the AEB bolt, allowing me to use the AWM tensioner roller?

[Seerlah]

Wrong. You need to use the awm cam gear. The cam gear needs to have exactly twice the amount of teeth than the crank gear. You also need to know the awm has 2 types of rollers. That is why they have the vin split. One has a stud use, and the other has a larger bolt with washer. I actually took that stud out and run with the early AWM timing belt kit (cylinder head is from late AWM). I like it better. And not sure if it was my goof or what, but I ran the late kit on an early block (replacement block i built i did not know was an early AWM) and my timing skipped 2 teeth over time. Not sure if was an underlying issue or the result of running the wrong kit.

[walky_talky20]

The AWM vin split doesn't matter. You can use whichever kit you want, early or late (so long as you also get the special stud if you want to run the "late" version).

To answer the OP's question, yes that special stud has the same threads. You can thread that into *any* 1.8T head. What you cannot do is run an AEB roller with your 06A block. That's not going to work due to belt offset differences.

[Spectre1130]

Wrong. You need to use the awm cam gear. The cam gear needs to have exactly twice the amount of teeth than the crank gear. You also need to know the awm has 2 types of rollers. That is why they have the vin split. One has a stud use, and the other has a larger bolt with washer. I actually took that stud out and run with the early AWM timing belt kit (cylinder head is from late AWM). I like it better. And not sure if it was my goof or what, but I ran the late kit on an early block (replacement block i built i did not know was an early AWM) and my timing skipped 2 teeth over time. Not sure if was an underlying issue or the result of running the wrong kit.

Okay, thankyou for the information. Thanks for clearing it up for me. I'm trying to order the stud from either a dealer or parts store, we will see how that goes, but I may get one from a jy motor.

It doesn't look like I'm going to get a whole lot done on the motor today. The Navy switched my holding period job to one that I work every day. So here are a few from yesterday.
[IMG][/IMG]
[IMG][/IMG]

[redline380]

you aren't seriously using stock rods are you?