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  1. #1
    Veteran Member Four Rings
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    Question Front and rear sway bars question

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    Anyone upgrade their front and rear sway bars? I’m thinking about it but my car is never tracked or anything so I’m wondering if there’s any benefit to doing it.

    I see that some people say that the ride will be a lot stiffer with the front and rear sway bar upgrade vs the rear alone. Can anyone comment on that? Like how much stiffer are we talking?

    For context, I installed the transmission mount insert, rear diff inserts, and rear subframe inserts and didn’t notice any difference. That’s why I wonder if the sway bars will make any difference in my situation.

  2. #2
    Veteran Member Four Rings Lensch09's Avatar
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    I did rear bar only to make the car more "fruity." I've done that on several Audis' in the past. it comes down to personal preference. This is the way (for me).

    -DL
    2022 RS5 Sportback - Navarra Blue

    Previously:
    2016 Audi S4 Prestige with tons of boltons -Build Thread - http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...016-S4-Ordered!
    2007 Audi A4 S-line Ti APR GT2871R
    1999 Audi A4 Avant (S4 replica)
    2000 Audi S4 Sedan (Stage III)
    1999.5 Audi A4 1.8TQM Sport (bolt-ons)

  3. #3
    Established Member Two Rings compprep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lensch09 View Post
    I did rear bar only to make the car more "fruity." I've done that on several Audis' in the past. it comes down to personal preference. This is the way (for me).
    Same here. Front bar looked like a PITA to change.

  4. #4
    Veteran Member Three Rings B6_Dolphin's Avatar
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    I replaced the stock FRT & RR sway bars & end links on my '23 RS5 with Eurocode Tuning sway bars and end links:

    https://www.ecodetuning.com/ec0202-0...ategory_id=608

    Replacing the rear sway bar is easy. To replace the front sway bar, you need to remove 14-16 bolts, almost all of them TTY bolts, and drop the subframe brace. I had my RS5 on Quickjacks, and I dropped the subframe brace with the aid of a transmission jack. Once the subframe brace is lowered (it will still be attached at the back to the lower control arm pivot), you unbolt and remove the stock front sway bar and end links.

    I bought all new TTY bolts for the subframe based on the advice from my dealer. There are 4 long TTY bolts at the back of the subframe that require a 115 N-m torque + 180 deg. You'll need a 24" breaker bar to complete the final 180 deg. to finish up - I bought an Icon one from Harbor Freight.
    2023 RS5 Coupe - Ascari Blue/Black; Mods: IE A2A IC, 034 Strut Brace, ECS Poly Trans Mount, APR CF Intake, EuroCode FRT & RR STB + Endlinks, PB Pedal Tuner; AskCarbon Steering Wheel
    2021 SQ5 S/B Prestige - Daytona Gray/Black

  5. #5
    Veteran Member Four Rings o1turbo30v's Avatar
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    For the best result, always replace sway bars in pairs! Sway bars work backwards, meaning if you change just the rear bar, you take away grip from the front (and give it to the rear).
    Stage 1 more than you RS3

  6. #6
    Veteran Member Four Rings Lensch09's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by o1turbo30v View Post
    For the best result, always replace sway bars in pairs! Sway bars work backwards, meaning if you change just the rear bar, you take away grip from the front (and give it to the rear).
    You've actually got that backwards. But, okay...

    If you want to really go down the rabbit hole, google "slip angle."

    -DL
    2022 RS5 Sportback - Navarra Blue

    Previously:
    2016 Audi S4 Prestige with tons of boltons -Build Thread - http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...016-S4-Ordered!
    2007 Audi A4 S-line Ti APR GT2871R
    1999 Audi A4 Avant (S4 replica)
    2000 Audi S4 Sedan (Stage III)
    1999.5 Audi A4 1.8TQM Sport (bolt-ons)

  7. #7
    Veteran Member Four Rings
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    I'm not too concerned about the work involved as I'm going to get a shop to do it. I'm more curious about people's experience with aftermarket sway bars; particularly for street driving.

  8. #8
    Veteran Member Three Rings B6_Dolphin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnEnglish View Post
    I'm not too concerned about the work involved as I'm going to get a shop to do it. I'm more curious about people's experience with aftermarket sway bars; particularly for street driving.
    With the stock sway bars, my RS5 had understeer, and now when I push it, like in a curve on a highway-speed off-ramp, for example, the body roll is less/much more flat with just a hint of oversteer, which I prefer.
    2023 RS5 Coupe - Ascari Blue/Black; Mods: IE A2A IC, 034 Strut Brace, ECS Poly Trans Mount, APR CF Intake, EuroCode FRT & RR STB + Endlinks, PB Pedal Tuner; AskCarbon Steering Wheel
    2021 SQ5 S/B Prestige - Daytona Gray/Black

  9. #9
    Veteran Member Four Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by B6_Dolphin View Post
    With the stock sway bars, my RS5 had understeer, and now when I push it, like in a curve on a highway-speed off-ramp, for example, the body roll is less/much more flat with just a hint of oversteer, which I prefer.
    Thanks, I'll probably end up installing front and rear sway bars and upgraded endlinks.

  10. #10
    Active Member One Ring
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    I did just the rear bar, 034 Motorsport. Didn't really notice any ride degradation/harshness. I too have rear subframe bushings and trans mount/insert (034)...not noticeable/material harshness from those all together, IMO.
    Having said that, I did recently change out the sway bar end links front and rear; 034 Density Line front and Dynamic + on the rear. I would say those rear end links, which are basically solid, are noticeable...some harshness from the rear when going over bumps and sizeable seams in pavement. I may change the rears back out to stock/original to restore some comfort back there. FYI, the rear bar in the 034 front and rear kit is larger than the stand alone 034 rear bar.
    2024 S5 Sportback Premium | Daytona Gray Pearl | Rotor Gray Napa | S Sport Package | Black Optics | ABT S power | a few 034 Motorsport suspension bits | Heavy right foot

  11. #11
    Veteran Member Four Rings
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    I never noticed the different rear sway bar sizes.

  12. #12
    Established Member Two Rings B7Quattro Pete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnEnglish View Post
    Thanks, I'll probably end up installing front and rear sway bars and upgraded endlinks.
    Yep typical for front wheel biased cars, even with AWD, like Audi’s. I’ve done the same with my Audi’s and Volvo’s, though don’t have on my RS5 Sportback yet. For the longer wheel base sportbacks and wagons it also helps lock down the tail wag or whatever you call it..on quick steering inputs.
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  13. #13
    Veteran Member Four Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by B7Quattro Pete View Post
    Yep typical for front wheel biased cars, even with AWD, like Audi’s. I’ve done the same with my Audi’s and Volvo’s, though don’t have on my RS5 Sportback yet. For the longer wheelbase sportbacks and wagons it also helps lock down the tail wag or whatever you call it..on quick steering inputs.
    It's not surprising with Audis considering how much of the engine hangs out ahead of the front wheels. I understand why it is the way it is, I just wish that they had changed things.

  14. #14
    Veteran Member Three Rings Dan99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by o1turbo30v View Post
    For the best result, always replace sway bars in pairs! Sway bars work backwards, meaning if you change just the rear bar, you take away grip from the front (and give it to the rear).
    The effect of sway bars is actually the opposite. The stiffer the sway bar, the less traction you will have on that end of the car. So, a stiffer sway bar in the rear does not reduce traction in the front, it reduces traction in the rear. I'll go into this in more detail below.

    Regarding which sway bars to change, it just depends on how your car handles now, and how you want it to handle after the change. I have had on-line classes from both of these authors and found their materials to be useful. Both authors have many resources available, some are free and some are not. Here are a few free ones to get you going:

    How to Tune Your Car's Handling a free pdf file containing 45 pages of information about suspension tuning. It discusses how to modify the handling of a car through suspension modifications, including anti-roll bars:

    https://speedsecrets.com/tune-car-handling/

    These next two links talk about understeer and oversteer, and the effects of softening or stiffening a suspension. They are written by a suspension engineer from a racing perspective. One of the main points he makes is that when you stiffen the suspension to add traction to the outside tire in a turn, you also lose traction on the inside tire. You can stiffen the suspension to the point that you have less total traction between the two tires. These are worth while if you want to learn more about handling and suspension tuning:

    https://www.yourdatadriven.com/under...er-definition/

    https://www.yourdatadriven.com/solvi...ndling-puzzle/

    Of course there are many ways to modify a suspension, including springs, shocks, strut tower braces, sway bars, alignment, etc., but we are discussing sway bars here so I will focus on that.

    First, remember that your car has an independent suspension because that configuration allows the suspension to better adapt to changing road surfaces, keeping the tires in contact with the road surface as much as possible, which maximizes traction. Linking the right and left sides of the suspension makes the suspension more stiff, while also reducing the independent nature of your independent suspension. Less independence equals less traction. For example, a stiffer anti-roll bar in the rear prevents the outside rear suspension from compressing which increases the load on the tire and results in more traction on that tire; however, the same forces that prevent the outside suspension from compressing also prevent the inside wheel from extending, thereby reducing traction on the inside tire. In effect, an anti-roll bar can shift most of the load to the outside tire, leaving you with less overall traction between the two tires. So, it's a balancing act to find the right configuration to maximize traction while also providing balanced handling.

    If you don't care a lot about cornering, you can just lower and stiffen everything to change how the car looks and feels. But, if you are concerned with handling, you need to consider the balance of the car in turns. Does it understeer, oversteer, or is it balanced, and what do you feel most comfortable with? From a safety point of view, manufacturers build in slight understeer in most vehicles as it is considered safer and easier to recover from than oversteer. Some cars, like the M2/3/4, build in oversteer to make it more track-focused, but Audis are built with understeer, as are most vehicles.

    The first step in good handling is to get tire pressure correct, as the tires are the car's only point of contact with the road and your only source of traction. You need to maximize the size of the tire's contact patch to maximize the traction it can provide, and correct tire pressure is the only way to do that. Too much or too little air pressure will reduce traction in that tire. Once tire pressure is correct you can assess handling and adjust how the car behaves in turns by modifying the suspension.

    If the car understeers, that indicates that the front tires have relatively less traction than the rear, so you either need to increase traction in the front, or decrease traction in the rear. Conversely, if the car oversteers, that indicates the front tires have relatively more traction than the rear, so you either need to decrease traction in the front or increase traction in the rear.

    Remembering that stiffer suspensions have less traction, and you want to modify handling with sway bars, you would stiffen an anti-roll bar to reduce both body roll and traction on that end of the car, or soften it to get the opposite effect. So, to address understeer you would stiffen the rear and/or soften the front sway bar; to address oversteer you would stiffen the front and/or soften the rear. If you want to change both sway bars, the principles remain the same and the handling you get will be a function of the relative difference between the front and rear sway bars. If the new sway bars are stiffer in the front than rear, you will have less oversteer and/or more understeer. If the new sway bars are stiffer in the rear than front, you will have less understeer and/or more oversteer.

    So, if your goal is to reduce understeer, just do the rear; if your goal is to reduce oversteer, just do the front; if you want your handling to be as flat as possible do both, but the ride will be more firm and you will have relatively less traction on all four corners of the car because you are making the suspension less independent.

    Finally, if stiff suspensions have less traction, why do track cars have stiffer suspensions? First, the suspension needs to be stiff enough to support the weight of the car and the forces it encounters on the track. Second, as track cars get faster and more aggressive they rely increasingly on aerodynamic down forces to increase traction, and that requires body work to be close to the road surface. If the suspension is too soft, it allows too much suspension movement which would allow the body work to come in contact with the road surface and impact the down force ground effects. Third, the less suspension movement you have, the less impact it will have on steering geometry, thereby making steering response more predictable.

    So, track cars will attempt strike a balance between suspension compliance and body work to maximize traction through tires and down force, in an effort to get the best handling for the specific track.

    Street cars have to handle well, but they also have to be livable on public roads. In the end, the correct anti-roll/sway bars to change depend on how your car handles now, and how you want it to behave after the modifications. Know what you are trying to accomplish before you start buying hardware.

  15. #15
    Established Member Two Rings
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    I just did My front swaybar, endlinks and UCA since I am taking it to get an alignment. The install is pretty elaborate considering its just a sway bar... I haven;t driven it yet and won't until alignment is done. Then hoping to get the rear in soon too and seeing how it feels.

  16. #16
    Junior Member Two Rings
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    Dann99, good read. Thanks for taking the time to post.

  17. #17
    Veteran Member Three Rings Dan99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdm-v35 View Post
    I just did My front swaybar, endlinks and UCA since I am taking it to get an alignment. The install is pretty elaborate considering its just a sway bar... I haven;t driven it yet and won't until alignment is done. Then hoping to get the rear in soon too and seeing how it feels.
    I would not expect a swaybar to affect the alignment. When the car is stationary there is no load on the swaybar, so the suspension sits the same way as it would without any swaybar. Swaybars only affect the suspension when the load on opposite tires is not equal. And installation of the swaybar should not change any part or adjustment that determines the current alignment. At least, that's how I see it. If someone knows otherwise, please share.

  18. #18
    Established Member Two Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan99 View Post
    I would not expect a swaybar to affect the alignment. When the car is stationary there is no load on the swaybar, so the suspension sits the same way as it would without any swaybar. Swaybars only affect the suspension when the load on opposite tires is not equal. And installation of the swaybar should not change any part or adjustment that determines the current alignment. At least, that's how I see it. If someone knows otherwise, please share.
    The sway bar itself doesn't but the install does because you need to remove the front subframe to swap it out. I also installed adjustable UCA so those needs to be aligned.

  19. #19
    Veteran Member Three Rings Dan99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdm-v35 View Post
    The sway bar itself doesn't but the install does because you need to remove the front subframe to swap it out. I also installed adjustable UCA so those needs to be aligned.
    Makes sense. I did not know the subframe had to be removed. Let us know how it works out.

  20. #20
    Established Member Two Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan99 View Post
    Makes sense. I did not know the subframe had to be removed. Let us know how it works out.
    I did the install yesterday and it was a real PITA. All the subframe bolts are difficult and one time use TTY. With removing the undershrouds its about 50 bolts total. Took me 6 hrs. 1.5 was the UCA and the other 4.5 was front sway.

    I would say if you feel very motivated to do the sway bar set and really want it, its doable but not fun. If you want it as an addon of convenience its certainly not a walk in the park unless you pay to have it done.

  21. #21
    Veteran Member Three Rings B6_Dolphin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan99 View Post
    Makes sense. I did not know the subframe had to be removed. Let us know how it works out.
    I did this job, too. It really helps to have a Quickjack or lift and a transmission jack at your disposal. I used the transmission jack to hold up the subframe brace as I removed the last few TTY bolts, and then lowered it down enough to snake the front sway bar out. The 4 rear TTY bolts are really long, and there's 2 shorter TTY bolts w/washers that are somewhat hidden by the control arm pivots. It looks intimidating, but if you have the right tools & lift/jack support, it's not that bad.

    Oh, and those TTY bolts need 90 to 180 deg of additional tightening after setting the initial torque to stretch the threads. I had to buy a 24" ICON breaker bar from HF for that step.
    2023 RS5 Coupe - Ascari Blue/Black; Mods: IE A2A IC, 034 Strut Brace, ECS Poly Trans Mount, APR CF Intake, EuroCode FRT & RR STB + Endlinks, PB Pedal Tuner; AskCarbon Steering Wheel
    2021 SQ5 S/B Prestige - Daytona Gray/Black

  22. #22
    Established Member Two Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan99 View Post
    The effect of sway bars is actually the opposite. The stiffer the sway bar, the less traction you will have on that end of the car. So, a stiffer sway bar in the rear does not reduce traction in the front, it reduces traction in the rear. I'll go into this in more detail below.

    Regarding which sway bars to change, it just depends on how your car handles now, and how you want it to handle after the change. I have had on-line classes from both of these authors and found their materials to be useful. Both authors have many resources available, some are free and some are not. Here are a few free ones to get you going:

    How to Tune Your Car's Handling a free pdf file containing 45 pages of information about suspension tuning. It discusses how to modify the handling of a car through suspension modifications, including anti-roll bars:

    https://speedsecrets.com/tune-car-handling/

    These next two links talk about understeer and oversteer, and the effects of softening or stiffening a suspension. They are written by a suspension engineer from a racing perspective. One of the main points he makes is that when you stiffen the suspension to add traction to the outside tire in a turn, you also lose traction on the inside tire. You can stiffen the suspension to the point that you have less total traction between the two tires. These are worth while if you want to learn more about handling and suspension tuning:

    https://www.yourdatadriven.com/under...er-definition/

    https://www.yourdatadriven.com/solvi...ndling-puzzle/

    Of course there are many ways to modify a suspension, including springs, shocks, strut tower braces, sway bars, alignment, etc., but we are discussing sway bars here so I will focus on that.

    First, remember that your car has an independent suspension because that configuration allows the suspension to better adapt to changing road surfaces, keeping the tires in contact with the road surface as much as possible, which maximizes traction. Linking the right and left sides of the suspension makes the suspension more stiff, while also reducing the independent nature of your independent suspension. Less independence equals less traction. For example, a stiffer anti-roll bar in the rear prevents the outside rear suspension from compressing which increases the load on the tire and results in more traction on that tire; however, the same forces that prevent the outside suspension from compressing also prevent the inside wheel from extending, thereby reducing traction on the inside tire. In effect, an anti-roll bar can shift most of the load to the outside tire, leaving you with less overall traction between the two tires. So, it's a balancing act to find the right configuration to maximize traction while also providing balanced handling.

    If you don't care a lot about cornering, you can just lower and stiffen everything to change how the car looks and feels. But, if you are concerned with handling, you need to consider the balance of the car in turns. Does it understeer, oversteer, or is it balanced, and what do you feel most comfortable with? From a safety point of view, manufacturers build in slight understeer in most vehicles as it is considered safer and easier to recover from than oversteer. Some cars, like the M2/3/4, build in oversteer to make it more track-focused, but Audis are built with understeer, as are most vehicles.

    The first step in good handling is to get tire pressure correct, as the tires are the car's only point of contact with the road and your only source of traction. You need to maximize the size of the tire's contact patch to maximize the traction it can provide, and correct tire pressure is the only way to do that. Too much or too little air pressure will reduce traction in that tire. Once tire pressure is correct you can assess handling and adjust how the car behaves in turns by modifying the suspension.

    If the car understeers, that indicates that the front tires have relatively less traction than the rear, so you either need to increase traction in the front, or decrease traction in the rear. Conversely, if the car oversteers, that indicates the front tires have relatively more traction than the rear, so you either need to decrease traction in the front or increase traction in the rear.

    Remembering that stiffer suspensions have less traction, and you want to modify handling with sway bars, you would stiffen an anti-roll bar to reduce both body roll and traction on that end of the car, or soften it to get the opposite effect. So, to address understeer you would stiffen the rear and/or soften the front sway bar; to address oversteer you would stiffen the front and/or soften the rear. If you want to change both sway bars, the principles remain the same and the handling you get will be a function of the relative difference between the front and rear sway bars. If the new sway bars are stiffer in the front than rear, you will have less oversteer and/or more understeer. If the new sway bars are stiffer in the rear than front, you will have less understeer and/or more oversteer.

    So, if your goal is to reduce understeer, just do the rear; if your goal is to reduce oversteer, just do the front; if you want your handling to be as flat as possible do both, but the ride will be more firm and you will have relatively less traction on all four corners of the car because you are making the suspension less independent.

    Finally, if stiff suspensions have less traction, why do track cars have stiffer suspensions? First, the suspension needs to be stiff enough to support the weight of the car and the forces it encounters on the track. Second, as track cars get faster and more aggressive they rely increasingly on aerodynamic down forces to increase traction, and that requires body work to be close to the road surface. If the suspension is too soft, it allows too much suspension movement which would allow the body work to come in contact with the road surface and impact the down force ground effects. Third, the less suspension movement you have, the less impact it will have on steering geometry, thereby making steering response more predictable.

    So, track cars will attempt strike a balance between suspension compliance and body work to maximize traction through tires and down force, in an effort to get the best handling for the specific track.

    Street cars have to handle well, but they also have to be livable on public roads. In the end, the correct anti-roll/sway bars to change depend on how your car handles now, and how you want it to behave after the modifications. Know what you are trying to accomplish before you start buying hardware.
    Dan99, thanks for sharing all the detail above... I wanted to add little bits here and there but I think this stands quite well on its own without going too deep down the rabbit hole. Great job!
    CURRENT: Quantum Grey 2019 S5 Sportback Prestige, Black Optics, S Sport Package
    Neuspeed RSe102's, 034 Trans Mount Insert & tranny mount upgrade, ABT HAS, 034 intake and inlet, 034 Stage 1 ECU/ Stage 2 TCU tune, 034 front strut brace, 034 subframe and diff mounts, 034 RSB, 034 RSB & end links, iSweep IS2000 pads, Neuspeed braided SS brake lines, Wagner Comp intercooler, more to come...
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  23. #23
    Veteran Member Four Rings Lensch09's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan99 View Post
    The effect of sway bars is actually the opposite. The stiffer the sway bar, the less traction you will have on that end of the car. So, a stiffer sway bar in the rear does not reduce traction in the front, it reduces traction in the rear. I'll go into this in more detail below.

    Regarding which sway bars to change, it just depends on how your car handles now, and how you want it to handle after the change. I have had on-line classes from both of these authors and found their materials to be useful. Both authors have many resources available, some are free and some are not. Here are a few free ones to get you going:

    How to Tune Your Car's Handling a free pdf file containing 45 pages of information about suspension tuning. It discusses how to modify the handling of a car through suspension modifications, including anti-roll bars:

    https://speedsecrets.com/tune-car-handling/

    These next two links talk about understeer and oversteer, and the effects of softening or stiffening a suspension. They are written by a suspension engineer from a racing perspective. One of the main points he makes is that when you stiffen the suspension to add traction to the outside tire in a turn, you also lose traction on the inside tire. You can stiffen the suspension to the point that you have less total traction between the two tires. These are worth while if you want to learn more about handling and suspension tuning:

    https://www.yourdatadriven.com/under...er-definition/

    https://www.yourdatadriven.com/solvi...ndling-puzzle/

    Of course there are many ways to modify a suspension, including springs, shocks, strut tower braces, sway bars, alignment, etc., but we are discussing sway bars here so I will focus on that.

    First, remember that your car has an independent suspension because that configuration allows the suspension to better adapt to changing road surfaces, keeping the tires in contact with the road surface as much as possible, which maximizes traction. Linking the right and left sides of the suspension makes the suspension more stiff, while also reducing the independent nature of your independent suspension. Less independence equals less traction. For example, a stiffer anti-roll bar in the rear prevents the outside rear suspension from compressing which increases the load on the tire and results in more traction on that tire; however, the same forces that prevent the outside suspension from compressing also prevent the inside wheel from extending, thereby reducing traction on the inside tire. In effect, an anti-roll bar can shift most of the load to the outside tire, leaving you with less overall traction between the two tires. So, it's a balancing act to find the right configuration to maximize traction while also providing balanced handling.

    If you don't care a lot about cornering, you can just lower and stiffen everything to change how the car looks and feels. But, if you are concerned with handling, you need to consider the balance of the car in turns. Does it understeer, oversteer, or is it balanced, and what do you feel most comfortable with? From a safety point of view, manufacturers build in slight understeer in most vehicles as it is considered safer and easier to recover from than oversteer. Some cars, like the M2/3/4, build in oversteer to make it more track-focused, but Audis are built with understeer, as are most vehicles.

    The first step in good handling is to get tire pressure correct, as the tires are the car's only point of contact with the road and your only source of traction. You need to maximize the size of the tire's contact patch to maximize the traction it can provide, and correct tire pressure is the only way to do that. Too much or too little air pressure will reduce traction in that tire. Once tire pressure is correct you can assess handling and adjust how the car behaves in turns by modifying the suspension.

    If the car understeers, that indicates that the front tires have relatively less traction than the rear, so you either need to increase traction in the front, or decrease traction in the rear. Conversely, if the car oversteers, that indicates the front tires have relatively more traction than the rear, so you either need to decrease traction in the front or increase traction in the rear.

    Remembering that stiffer suspensions have less traction, and you want to modify handling with sway bars, you would stiffen an anti-roll bar to reduce both body roll and traction on that end of the car, or soften it to get the opposite effect. So, to address understeer you would stiffen the rear and/or soften the front sway bar; to address oversteer you would stiffen the front and/or soften the rear. If you want to change both sway bars, the principles remain the same and the handling you get will be a function of the relative difference between the front and rear sway bars. If the new sway bars are stiffer in the front than rear, you will have less oversteer and/or more understeer. If the new sway bars are stiffer in the rear than front, you will have less understeer and/or more oversteer.

    So, if your goal is to reduce understeer, just do the rear; if your goal is to reduce oversteer, just do the front; if you want your handling to be as flat as possible do both, but the ride will be more firm and you will have relatively less traction on all four corners of the car because you are making the suspension less independent.

    Finally, if stiff suspensions have less traction, why do track cars have stiffer suspensions? First, the suspension needs to be stiff enough to support the weight of the car and the forces it encounters on the track. Second, as track cars get faster and more aggressive they rely increasingly on aerodynamic down forces to increase traction, and that requires body work to be close to the road surface. If the suspension is too soft, it allows too much suspension movement which would allow the body work to come in contact with the road surface and impact the down force ground effects. Third, the less suspension movement you have, the less impact it will have on steering geometry, thereby making steering response more predictable.

    So, track cars will attempt strike a balance between suspension compliance and body work to maximize traction through tires and down force, in an effort to get the best handling for the specific track.

    Street cars have to handle well, but they also have to be livable on public roads. In the end, the correct anti-roll/sway bars to change depend on how your car handles now, and how you want it to behave after the modifications. Know what you are trying to accomplish before you start buying hardware.
    LOL - I said something very high level earlier in the post and just told him to google "slip angle." Thank you for putting in the work I didn't feel like doing LOL

    -DL
    2022 RS5 Sportback - Navarra Blue

    Previously:
    2016 Audi S4 Prestige with tons of boltons -Build Thread - http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...016-S4-Ordered!
    2007 Audi A4 S-line Ti APR GT2871R
    1999 Audi A4 Avant (S4 replica)
    2000 Audi S4 Sedan (Stage III)
    1999.5 Audi A4 1.8TQM Sport (bolt-ons)

  24. #24
    Veteran Member Four Rings initiala4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnEnglish View Post
    Anyone upgrade their front and rear sway bars? I’m thinking about it but my car is never tracked or anything so I’m wondering if there’s any benefit to doing it.

    I see that some people say that the ride will be a lot stiffer with the front and rear sway bar upgrade vs the rear alone. Can anyone comment on that? Like how much stiffer are we talking?

    For context, I installed the transmission mount insert, rear diff inserts, and rear subframe inserts and didn’t notice any difference. That’s why I wonder if the sway bars will make any difference in my situation.
    Stability of the car is improved compared to stock swaybar.
    2019 B9 RS4 - O.CT Tuning Stage 1 | Wagner Intercooler / Radiator | Ohlins R&T DFV | 034 Motorsports Dynamic + Sway bars | 034 Motorsports Transmission mount | Ignition Projects Coilpacks | HHC Rear rotor upgrade 370mm + Endless MX72 brake pads

    Formerly - 2003 Audi B6 A4 1.8T QM, 2013 VW Passat Variant 2.0 TSI

  25. #25
    Senior Member Two Rings
    Join Date
    Dec 12 2022
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    Quote Originally Posted by B6_Dolphin View Post
    I replaced the stock FRT & RR sway bars & end links on my '23 RS5 with Eurocode Tuning sway bars and end links:

    https://www.ecodetuning.com/ec0202-0...ategory_id=608

    Replacing the rear sway bar is easy. To replace the front sway bar, you need to remove 14-16 bolts, almost all of them TTY bolts, and drop the subframe brace. I had my RS5 on Quickjacks, and I dropped the subframe brace with the aid of a transmission jack. Once the subframe brace is lowered (it will still be attached at the back to the lower control arm pivot), you unbolt and remove the stock front sway bar and end links.

    I bought all new TTY bolts for the subframe based on the advice from my dealer. There are 4 long TTY bolts at the back of the subframe that require a 115 N-m torque + 180 deg. You'll need a 24" breaker bar to complete the final 180 deg. to finish up - I bought an Icon one from Harbor Freight.
    How much of a difference are they over the stock Comp bars? Was it an obvious night and day difference or more subtle?
    ’23 RS5 Sportback
    Glacier White | Competition | Nav | RS Drivers Assist | Side Assist

    Mods: Full XPEL ULTIMATE PLUS 10 PPF | XPEL Fussion Plus Ceramic Coat | XPEL PRIME XR PLUS Tint | Taillights XPEL Slate 50 | Satin Black Vossen HF-5 20x10.5 | Future Design Carbon Full Blaze Kit | 034 Front Strut Brace | 034 Transmission Mount Insert | 034 Catch Can Kit | 034 S34 SüperDüper Intake

    ACNA Lifetime Member

  26. #26
    Veteran Member Three Rings B6_Dolphin's Avatar
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    Apr 10 2005
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    PNW

    Quote Originally Posted by KOSTIC View Post
    How much of a difference are they over the stock Comp bars? Was it an obvious night and day difference or more subtle?
    Night and day. I have a cloverleaf nearby which has both a right, long sweeper on-ramp, and a right/left/right transition off-ramp. Less front-end push in the sweeper, and quicker recovery in the transition. I use these as my test segments for my suspension setups :)

    Right now I have the Michelin A/S 4's on Vorsteiner forged rims for fall/winter (42 psi front/39 psi rear), and the factory coil-over settings are set-up as it was delivered, except the rear dampening is set softer for highway comfort. When I had the Comp wheels and Pirelli Corsas installed, I could carry these same segments with a little higher speed, with the rear giving-up at the limit, which is my personal preference.

    Looking forward to some AudiClub HPDEs this year. I'm happy overall with its street behavior - I'll need to play around with the coil-over settings for the track, but I think with the rear STB set in the middle position and the front STB at its softest setting, it's about the right for street use. Note: I also have the Eurocode endlinks installed.
    2023 RS5 Coupe - Ascari Blue/Black; Mods: IE A2A IC, 034 Strut Brace, ECS Poly Trans Mount, APR CF Intake, EuroCode FRT & RR STB + Endlinks, PB Pedal Tuner; AskCarbon Steering Wheel
    2021 SQ5 S/B Prestige - Daytona Gray/Black

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