B10 S5 EA839evo Engine & Drivetrain Technical Details

[034Motorsport]

TECHNICAL BLOG: https://www.034motorsport.com/blog/t...been-unveiled/

While plenty of news media outlets covered the overall information of the new B10 S5, 034Motorsport got access to some leaked Self-Study documents that go into more technical detail of the new generation 3.0T, dubbed the EA839evo, and the associated drivetrain changes. These changes are pretty fascinating, and some will certainly be topics of further discussion.

Check out the wide range of changes coming with the B10 S5 in our recent technical blog, and let us know if there's anything you want expanded on further!



TECHNCIAL BLOG: https://www.034motorsport.com/blog/t...been-unveiled/

[angrycatmeow]

Brakes are disappointing, also disappointed no MPFI to cope with carbon.

Sent from my Samsung smart fridge

[Burrcold]

579 ft-lbs of torque is crazy! I wonder what the curb weight will be?

[Turbanator]

579 ft-lbs of torque is crazy! I wonder what the curb weight will be?

The S5 Sedan is 1950kg (4300lbs), while the S5 Avant is 1965kg (4332lbs). That's an increase of 376lbs and 287lbs respectively (latter number is based on Euro-spec B9.5 S4 Avant, which had a diesel engine).

Also, are we sure that the hybrid system's torque/power is additional to the engine? Audi has never claimed a figure more than the 550Nm/270kW of the engine, which makes me think that's the total system output and you can't just add the electric motor's power/torque to those numbers.

[Burrcold]

The S5 Sedan is 1950kg (4300lbs), while the S5 Avant is 1965kg (4332lbs). That's an increase of 376lbs and 287lbs respectively (latter number is based on Euro-spec B9.5 S4 Avant, which had a diesel engine).

Also, are we sure that the hybrid system's torque/power is additional to the engine? Audi has never claimed a figure more than the 550Nm/270kW of the engine, which makes me think that's the total system output and you can't just add the electric motor's power/torque to those numbers.

Torque number seems awfully high even with a ~400 lb increase (sedan/Sportback). Let 034 chime in as that's what they posted.

[034Motorsport]

The S5 Sedan is 1950kg (4300lbs), while the S5 Avant is 1965kg (4332lbs). That's an increase of 376lbs and 287lbs respectively (latter number is based on Euro-spec B9.5 S4 Avant, which had a diesel engine).

Also, are we sure that the hybrid system's torque/power is additional to the engine? Audi has never claimed a figure more than the 550Nm/270kW of the engine, which makes me think that's the total system output and you can't just add the electric motor's power/torque to those numbers.

Based on the information available regarding the engine mapping, the 550nm is purely from the gasoline engine, and the added power from the electric motor is additional. In order for the E motor to be within that 550nm torque figure you are referring to, that would mean they would have to reduce the engine's torque output itself by over 100+ Ft-lbs between the B9 and B10, which given the E motor could only for 24hp, would not be enough to counteract the horsepower losses by reducing torque output from the gasoline engine that much. We'd see far less horsepower rated with that much reduction in gasoline engine torque for that to be a 550nm combined figure.

Of course, time will tell, but as of now it looks as though the electric power of 24hp and 174tq is separate from the 362hp/405tq. The additional documentation outlining engine performance by RPM further helps substantiate this theory, as that diagram and following chart would denote if the figures were including E-power, which it does not.

[JohnEnglish]

Also, are we sure that the hybrid system's torque/power is additional to the engine? Audi has never claimed a figure more than the 550Nm/270kW of the engine, which makes me think that's the total system output and you can't just add the electric motor's power/torque to those numbers.

Generally you can't as the E-motor and engine aren't designed to work at maximum power at the same time. That's why the published HP and torque specs for hybrids is always lower than just adding the total power figures of the engine and E-motor(s) together. I wonder if that can be changed with tuning.

[Smac770]

The PTG is on the output shaft, not the input shaft. Not surprising since it sits at the output end of the transmission. So to relate engine speed/torque numbers, you first have to convert them based on the gear ratio. And it's only 24kW, so that torque output gets diluted rapidly as rpm increases. The engine still has the MHEV BAS; the PTG is to enable some (very) low load electric only movement and additional efficiency gains. It's also the primary 48v regen mechanism (regen braking, I presume).

I don't see an easy access stop/start disable button. Wonder if it's even permitted. Having to dig into the screen every vehicle start would suck.

[Smac770]

B10 S5 output shaft numbers.jpg

That's what you get on the output shaft in first gear (3.188 ratio). So the PTG's 174 ftlbs is a constant from 0 until you reach 24 bhp at 724 rpm, then who knows how it actually falls off, but we know it's capped to no more than 24 bhp. So the e-motor will be useful where it's meant to be useful, low rpm and no rpm assist. It's not the 188 bhp e-motor of the 2.9T PHEV drivetrain.

[Smac770]

The technical specs are already published, S5 sedan is 4300 lbs unloaded, 5500 gross. 4.5s 0-62.
https://www.audi-mediacenter.com/en/...102?node=34530

[Burrcold]

The technical specs are already published, S5 sedan is 4300 lbs unloaded, 5500 gross. 4.5s 0-62.
https://www.audi-mediacenter.com/en/...102?node=34530

They have to update their technical specs. The S5 still says Quattro with Ultra.

[Smac770]

They have to update their technical specs. The S5 still says Quattro with Ultra.

That assumes they have something to update. As I posted elsewhere, the wording specifically used in Audi's response leaves faith in the accuracy or what any of them are saying up in the air. It would have been simple for any one of those reviewers to just look under the car. The Torsen center diff transfer case cover is very different from the quattro ultra clutch transfer case cover. For example, the big control module slapped on the side of it.

[034Motorsport]

That assumes they have something to update. As I posted elsewhere, the wording specifically used in Audi's response leaves faith in the accuracy or what any of them are saying up in the air. It would have been simple for any one of those reviewers to just look under the car. The Torsen center diff transfer case cover is very different from the quattro ultra clutch transfer case cover. For example, the big control module slapped on the side of it.

Audi addressed "The Drive" directly following their first article release regarding this, stating

The original version of this story stated the 2025 Audi S5 would use a Quattro Ultra all-wheel-drive system, based on an official Audi document. Audi did not respond to The Drive’s questions by publication time. Audi later informed The Drive that the contents of the article were incorrect; the entire piece has since been updated to reflect this. Per Audi, “the B10 S5 employs the same standard quattro with sport diff as today’s B9 S5 with the S sport package,” while Quattro Ultra will remain on the A5, as before.

Based on this update, that would seem to be good cause to figure that the B10 S5 will come with the Torsen AWD we all know.

https://www.thedrive.com/news/2025-a...ll-wheel-drive

[Smac770]

Hopefully for those S5 buyers, that'll be the case. But the complete Audi text that thedrive listed was:

"Quattro ultra only comes on the B10 A5, not the S5. The B10 S5 employs the same standard quattro with sport diff as today’s B9 S5 with the S sport package. The B10 S5 comes standard with a rear sport differential, which means the quattro system is fully engaged all the time (like the torsen setup). It does not and cannot disengage the rear axle."

It's that they included the text in bold that makes it confusing. Plus, how the f does that kind of screw up make it through to a product release presentation in such a company? Because it's not like it was just a copy/paste error on one slide. It's wrong across multiple documents. Were the documents correct, and someone higher up became aware and said "wtf are you idiots doing", and backtrack they go? I'm sure the world will never really know.

The better question is why are they not yet shifted to the Porsche style system? What S buyer probably wouldn't want full RWD with selectively engaged/controlled front axle drive? Is this more "you can't have an R8 because Porsche said so" type stuff? Or did they look at the lawsuits involving those vehicles and thinking "yeah, we'll pass"?

[Turbanator]

Hopefully for those S5 buyers, that'll be the case. But the complete Audi text that thedrive listed was:

"Quattro ultra only comes on the B10 A5, not the S5. The B10 S5 employs the same standard quattro with sport diff as today’s B9 S5 with the S sport package. The B10 S5 comes standard with a rear sport differential, which means the quattro system is fully engaged all the time (like the torsen setup). It does not and cannot disengage the rear axle."

It's that they included the text in bold that makes it confusing. Plus, how the f does that kind of screw up make it through to a product release presentation in such a company? Because it's not like it was just a copy/paste error on one slide. It's wrong across multiple documents. Were the documents correct, and someone higher up became aware and said "wtf are you idiots doing", and backtrack they go? I'm sure the world will never really know.

The better question is why are they not yet shifted to the Porsche style system? What S buyer probably wouldn't want full RWD with selectively engaged/controlled front axle drive? Is this more "you can't have an R8 because Porsche said so" type stuff? Or did they look at the lawsuits involving those vehicles and thinking "yeah, we'll pass"?

Is the Porsche setup on any MLB vehicles? Because if not, I can imagine there are mechanical incompatibilities trying to fit MSB components in.

[Smac770]

Is the Porsche setup on any MLB vehicles? Because if not, I can imagine there are mechanical incompatibilities trying to fit MSB components in.

It's a bolt on ("hang-on") transfer case to the ZF transmission. It's made by Magna, same people that make the "quattro ultra", another "managed" transfer case solution ("Flex4"). So same concept, same manufacturer, "inverted" implementation where the rear output is forged to the input and the front output is the clutched output. Also, unlike the DL501, the DL382 has the same arrangement of front shaft inside of output shaft as the ZF transmission. The DL501 was inverted, same as the 6MTs it was based on, thus why the Torsen center diff p/ns were always different (0B2,0B4,0B5) vs the ones for the ZFs (0B6, 0BK, 0BL).

If you look at diagram of the DL382 type 0CL with Torsen center on pages 46-47 of the SSP 644, you see the clutch K2 in blue and the shaft with gearing that it drives cutaway in blue. Then the clutch K1 in orange, with the shaft through the middle of the blue input shaft, to the orange geared input shaft. These both mesh with the output shaft in dark tan (?). We see that drives the Torsen housing, with the Torsen front output coming back down the center of the output shaft to the front, where it drives the spur gear to the front drive shaft.

If you look at the diagram of the AL552 (ZF 8HP65A) type 0D5 with Torsen center on pages 34-35 of the SSP 662, we see the same general arrangement at the transmission rear end. Output on the outside, input to the front diff returning through the inside of that output.

Pages 38-39 of the SSP 657 shows the 0CJ version of the DL382, with the long inside shaft to the front axle spur gear removed and that gear driven directly by the output shaft. Then the output shaft feeds through at the rear to the "AWD clutch", where the clutch pack governs the transfer to the rear drive shaft output. The transfer case for the Porsche would be like the 0CL config, taking the output which would be hard linked with the rear drive shaft output, and the clutch pack connecting the front axle shaft returning back up the transmission to the front spur gear.

[Burrcold]

Hopefully for those S5 buyers, that'll be the case. But the complete Audi text that thedrive listed was:

"Quattro ultra only comes on the B10 A5, not the S5. The B10 S5 employs the same standard quattro with sport diff as today’s B9 S5 with the S sport package. The B10 S5 comes standard with a rear sport differential, which means the quattro system is fully engaged all the time (like the torsen setup). It does not and cannot disengage the rear axle."

It's that they included the text in bold that makes it confusing. Plus, how the f does that kind of screw up make it through to a product release presentation in such a company? Because it's not like it was just a copy/paste error on one slide. It's wrong across multiple documents. Were the documents correct, and someone higher up became aware and said "wtf are you idiots doing", and backtrack they go? I'm sure the world will never really know.

The better question is why are they not yet shifted to the Porsche style system? What S buyer probably wouldn't want full RWD with selectively engaged/controlled front axle drive? Is this more "you can't have an R8 because Porsche said so" type stuff? Or did they look at the lawsuits involving those vehicles and thinking "yeah, we'll pass"?

Yeah I don't get why they still haven't pulled the spec documents from their very own media page if it's in fact wrong. Seems very half @ssed.

[DesslerSoto]

Hopefully for those S5 buyers, that'll be the case. But the complete Audi text that thedrive listed was:

"Quattro ultra only comes on the B10 A5, not the S5. The B10 S5 employs the same standard quattro with sport diff as today’s B9 S5 with the S sport package. The B10 S5 comes standard with a rear sport differential, which means the quattro system is fully engaged all the time (like the torsen setup). It does not and cannot disengage the rear axle."

It's that they included the text in bold that makes it confusing. Plus, how the f does that kind of screw up make it through to a product release presentation in such a company? Because it's not like it was just a copy/paste error on one slide. It's wrong across multiple documents. Were the documents correct, and someone higher up became aware and said "wtf are you idiots doing", and backtrack they go? I'm sure the world will never really know.

The better question is why are they not yet shifted to the Porsche style system? What S buyer probably wouldn't want full RWD with selectively engaged/controlled front axle drive? Is this more "you can't have an R8 because Porsche said so" type stuff? Or did they look at the lawsuits involving those vehicles and thinking "yeah, we'll pass"?

The entire Audi product line has stagnated after the departure of Ferdinand Piëch as Chairman of VAG. The new Porsche management appears to hold back the performance of new Audi vehicles to minimize competition. Just look at the performance of Audi vehicles vs. BMW over the last 10 years.

Sent from my SM-S9080 using Audizine Forum mobile app

[JohnEnglish]

Hopefully for those S5 buyers, that'll be the case. But the complete Audi text that thedrive listed was:

"Quattro ultra only comes on the B10 A5, not the S5. The B10 S5 employs the same standard quattro with sport diff as today’s B9 S5 with the S sport package. The B10 S5 comes standard with a rear sport differential, which means the quattro system is fully engaged all the time (like the torsen setup). It does not and cannot disengage the rear axle."

It's that they included the text in bold that makes it confusing. Plus, how the f does that kind of screw up make it through to a product release presentation in such a company? Because it's not like it was just a copy/paste error on one slide. It's wrong across multiple documents. Were the documents correct, and someone higher up became aware and said "wtf are you idiots doing", and backtrack they go? I'm sure the world will never really know.

The better question is why are they not yet shifted to the Porsche style system? What S buyer probably wouldn't want full RWD with selectively engaged/controlled front axle drive? Is this more "you can't have an R8 because Porsche said so" type stuff? Or did they look at the lawsuits involving those vehicles and thinking "yeah, we'll pass"?

I'm guessing it's because the S5 will continue to use the crown gear differential which is not a Torsen unit. However, most people are probably more familiar with Torsen than crown gear so they used Torsen to describe it's behavior.

[JohnEnglish]

Check out the wide range of changes coming with the B10 S5 in our recent technical blog, and let us know if there's anything you want expanded on further!

If you can find out, I'd be interested to hear about the reasoning to switch back to the DSG especially since the 8 speed is available with a 160 kw e-motor.

I guess the decision to switch to air to water cooling for the turbo has to do with turbo response since there will be less air volume to move.

[Burrcold]

I'm guessing it's because the S5 will continue to use the crown gear differential which is not a Torsen unit. However, most people are probably more familiar with Torsen than crown gear so they used Torsen to describe it's behavior.

I thought the B9 did not get a crown gear differential? Wasn't the last model to use a crown gear the B8 RS4/5?

[JohnEnglish]

I thought the B9 did not get a crown gear differential? Wasn't the last model to use a crown gear the B8 RS4/5?

I know the A6 and A7 used it before the switched to Quattro Ultra and the A8 also uses it. My B8.5 S4 also listed "Crown Center differential" on the spec sheet so I figured that Audi kept using it since it gives a space and weight savings over a Torsen differential.

[Smac770]

I'm guessing it's because the S5 will continue to use the crown gear differential which is not a Torsen unit. However, most people are probably more familiar with Torsen than crown gear so they used Torsen to describe it's behavior.

Crown gear died with the 0B5 transmission. The only crown gear center diffs had 0B5 p/ns and were only installed in 0B5 transmissions. Only B8 RS had it, along with some B8 Q5 and A4 allroad with the 0B5 transmission (B8 means B8, I will never type B8 to mean specifically B8.0). As for C7 vehicles with 0B5 transmissions that may or may not have had 0B5 center diffs, no idea. Not something I ever dug into. But a quick glance says no. The 0B5 in the C7.0 A7/S7 used an 0B2... center diff, therefore Torsen.

[Smac770]

If you can find out, I'd be interested to hear about the reasoning to switch back to the DSG especially since the 8 speed is available with a 160 kw e-motor.

I guess the decision to switch to air to water cooling for the turbo has to do with turbo response since there will be less air volume to move.

Both the ZF 8HP and the DL382 have PHEV e-motor variants in the MLBevo TFSIe vehicles:

DL382E-7A (type 0DK) [A so means ultra] had a 55 kW continuous / 105 kW peak (3000-7000 rpm) / 350 Nm (0-2500 rpm) e-motor EBCA, used with the 2.0T in FY Q5 and 4K A6/A7
AL552E-8Q (type 0D7) [Q so means Torsen] had 60 kW continuous / 100 kW peak (2800-6000 rpm) / 400 Nm (0-2200 rpm) e-motor EALD, used with the 3.0T in 4M Q7/Q8
AL553E-8Q (type 0DY) [Q so means Torsen] had 60 kW continuous / 100 kW peak (2800-6000 rpm) / 400 Nm (0-2200 rpm) e-motor EALD, used with the 3.0T in 4N A8

The 0DY differs from the 0D7 because the A8 has less space and it needed to be modified to fit.
Also note, originally, the ZF e-motor was the EALB, which was only 94 kW peak and 350 Nm.

[gor134]

Brakes are disappointing, also disappointed no MPFI to cope with carbon.

Sent from my Samsung smart fridge

Downsize brakes are due to the regen-braking capability with the new 48V system. Almost certain the US-market S5 without the 48V will come with larger brakes.