Help

[eyab689]

I'm building a 09 Audi a4 2.0t that has 650hp it currently has a ZF 6 spd tiptronic in it and the codes say KBU KXT on the ID sticker and under type it says 8K2 56L. Now the block is actually a 2013 CAEB block that I've built. What I'd like to do is to switch the transmission to a 8 spd tiptronic. I have checked and the front axel shafts are the same from 09-16 so that should be a problem. Now my issue with changing over to a 8spd is the 6spd at the tail of the transmission the yoke is flat with holes in it that the driveshaft bolts to. So I'm wondering with all the builds us Audi owners make has anyone switched transmissions I also know the 2011's are the first year they switched to a 8spd and they have a spline sticking out. So I'd appreciate any help out there with someone else's guidance on switching these transmissions. Also this is a Quattro so like I said if anyone knows what code transmission I could use with it to make this build complete. I know I might have to change the driveshaft as well. I would be in your debt. Thanks

[Smac770]

KBU is the rear diff. KXT is the transmission. This is the same drive train as mine.

front axles - Three grades of power handling: the 2.0T quattro would have the low end ones (rev P), the 3.0T quattro would have the mid grade ones (rev Q), stronger ones were for TDI FWD. They all have the same flange interface. You might consider swapping up from P to Q (now AJ) given the power intention.
https://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...1#post14648296

cardan shaft -
for 0B6 flange shaft - 8K0 521 101 D, now K
for 0BK spline shaft - 8K0 531 101 H, then P, then R, now AC

rear diff - the 0BC handles more power than the 0BD. Eventually the 0BD KBU was dropped and replaced by the 0BC KRR. The KRR has the same 43:13 ratio and 70.7mm flange shafts. There's also the KCC (later NPR), with the same 43:13 ratio, but 75.5mm flange shafts, which was used with the S5 4.2L V8 (and later B8.5 Q5). Curious, there is a 43:13 0BD with 75.5mm flange shafts, the KHR, used on the Q5.

rear axles -
for 70.7mm flange - 8K0 501 203 J, now M
for 75.5mm flange - 8K0 501 203 K, now N
The J/K pair seems to be for before Aug 15 '11, and the M/N pair seems to be for after Aug 15 '11. The inner CV joint p/n was updated for the M/N axles. But what that means changed, who knows. The flange shafts for the rear diff are the same for the complete B8 run.

transmission - KXT is the 0B6 (6HP28AF) with 43:13 front diff ratio and flange rear output shaft with the mechatronics programming for the 2.0T. This was replaced by LML mid MY09 or so. The 0BK (8HP55A) replaced the 0B6 for MY11, starting with MXW and then NES, NXS, NTA, and PRU. The allroad version NGR had a different primary drive ratio to bump up the overall ratio, but did have the 34:11 front diff ratio (which was the match to the 43:13 rear diff ratio). They're not the same because of the gear ratio from the center diff output to the front drive shaft, which is 31:29. To get a ZF8 with mechatronics programming for a 3.0T, you'd have to look to the B8.5 Q5 versions.

Wiring is not the same. You'll need the harness plug for the 0BK and then reorder the pins as necessary. The one wiring change is the 0B6 had two pins to ground (13 and 16); the 0BK has one large one (14). But otherwise, seems just a depin/repin, if I recall. I worked all this out a long time ago, can't find the post. You might find it in a search.

[eyab689]

OK so if I'm reading this right I would be able to go with would be able to go with the MXW OBK (8HP55A) then I would need to change the wiring pins and also the plug wiring..moving spots because of having 2 grounds..then change out the rear diff and the rear axels correct?

[Smac770]

The transmission and the cardan shaft are all you would need to do. You should consider the rear diff, rear axles, and front axles, I imagine, if you're trying to run some super boosted config. I don't know if I'd use a MXW (MY11). I'd probably try a NES or NXS myself.

Don't forget the J217 is part of the immobilizer group, so you'll need to have the immobilizer adaptation run to get the car "working".

[eyab689]

Oh ok I will remember that...yeah I'm gonna be running like 28lbs of boost...thanks I really appreciate the help it means a ton..I will check out those transmissions for sure.

[eyab689]

OK I have another question. I found a transmission for 150 bucks (NES) so you mentioned about having to repin the plug on the transmission. What if I were to get a new wir8ng harness fr9m same year transmission? Would I need to have to do anything to the (TCM) or would it just be a plug and play swap? I can get a used wiring harness for 200 bucks. Thanks for your help.

[Smac770]

How you source the plug, that's just something that has to happen. As well as remapping the wires on your car going to the correct pins on that new plug for an 0BK. There's no simple quick disconnect TCM harness to swap.

[eyab689]

OK so even if I swap the wir8ng harness with a factory wiring harness made for the 8 spd tranny something will still need to be done with the ECU such as remapping it? If I am understanding that correctly? I just thought it would be easier if I went out and got the wiring harness for that year engine harness to make it easier? Thanks Chuck

[Smac770]

https://www.ilcats.ru/audi/?function...25&language=en

Yeah, guess you could replace your 8K1971072FN with 8K1971072KP. That's a lot of wiring to replace just to swap the 16-pin to the TCM and reorder the pins (assuming the terminal pins are the same). But yes, there is the change in the term 30 and term 31 wires. If the easier route to amend that difference is to just replace the whole engine harness, so be it.

0B6 vs 0BK wiring.png

[Smac770]

I find it curious that they bother to swap term 30 and term 31 between pins 13 and 14. That just seems like it's trying to be devious.

Also, the 8K (A4) wiring diagram has black/green for the 0BK but the 8T (A5) wiring diagram has black/violet for the 0BK. In either case, it's the wire on 9 that has 12v when ignition is on.

[eyab689]

OK I see what your talking about with the wiring maybe I will just do like you said instead of pulling the whole wiring harness out. I will look through the wiring harness now that you have shown me a picture of it. Thanks alot I will be in touch if I have anymore questions.

[eyab689]

Smac77...OK so yeah not going to change out harness. I'm going to do as you suggested and swap pins. So on the round plug pins I just follow the number 17's and change them based on color to the different holes as in diagram. And then for the other ones like the fuse panel ones as well? If I read it right it's actually pretty easy. We'll not easy but not really that complicated. I will let ya know if I run I nto any issues or questions.

Thanks Chuck

[Smac770]

Yeah, it's just connect the dots. The pin positions will be marked on the plug, it's also marked in the 8xx sections of the wiring diagrams. So the wire in position 9 on the 0B6 plug, put it wherever the 9 is on the 0BK plug, etc.

[eyab689]

OK that's what I thought I appreciate sorry not used to doing wiring on these cars with ECU's I'm from old school muscle

[Smac770]

Yeah, go by the chart I posted earlier. Once you depin the 0B6 plug and have all the wires, then sort which positions they belong in on the 0BK plug, addressing the change in the ground line, and it should play out fine. Having messed with car stereo stuff a lot way back, this is straight forward type stuff for me. But it should become clear once you just start doing it.

[eyab689]

OK Smac770 sweet thanks now one last question. How did you remove the wires from the plug? I have the circle tool to slide over pins but on the round plug isn't there a locking ring or something that holds those pins so they dont come out? I got the plastic corner off no problem but im trying to figure out what holds the round outside ring over the inner circle of the connector?

Thanks Chuck

[eyab689]

OK I just read back so I've gotta get a new connector plug because the plug itself is different. I seen on ebay the plug isn't the same as mine where as mine the plug isn't at the same level as the locking ring the plug actually sticks out and the locking ring is back so the plug actually goes deeper in the transmission where on the old one it's flush.

Thanks Chuck

[eyab689]

OK I see said the blind man I gotta get the 8hp plug and then repin that one..sorry I just got back from a cruise to Alaska and I ended up with covid so my brain is a lil scrambled at the moment.

Thanks Chuck

Ps I tried to attach Pic of new plug but I think I got it

[JLAllroad]

Oh ok I will remember that...yeah I'm gonna be running like 28lbs of boost...thanks I really appreciate the help it means a ton..I will check out those transmissions for sure.

You’re going to need a lot of rpms to hit 650hp, what turbo and tuner? Fueling?


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine Forum

[eyab689]

JLallroad I'm gonna be running a CTS big boss 600 turbo, 034 upgrade kit, and Norstrum injectors. I'm also running Snow-Performance water meth/injection and HP Tuner. The engine has been completely rebuilt except crank IE 700hp Rods, JE Ultra racing pistons bored to 84.5mm with hapless rings.

[eyab689]

Oh and ARP studs, new head, grams 70mm throttle body and it will be running 28psi of boost

- - - Updated - - -

Oops one mistake 83.5mm pistons sorry

[eyab689]

OK so I got my new plug today and started repinning the plug and I noticed that the brown wire is 2 wires and it only uses one of the holes. Where does the other brown wire go?

[Smac770]

That's been something I've pointing out, also noted in the chart. The 0B6 has two ~17awg ground wires to two pins, 13 and 16. Though those two wires join before grounding to the chassis. The 0BK instead has one 14awg ground to only one pin, 14. The wiring diagram is unclear that other wire sizes might be possible on one of the ground lines for the 0B6.

So do you have two ~17awg brown wires? You'd want to splice them together with a 14awg and run that 14 to pin 14. Or tape the original browns off and run a new 14awg from the plug to the chassis ground.

[eyab689]

Yes I have 2 17awg brown wires. I will splice them together and run them to pin 14. Then I noticed as it states the OBK doesn't have a green/yellow wire. So does that wire just get taped off??....thanks so much for the help.

[Smac770]

I don't see green/yellow for the 0B6 in my chart. What pin was the green/yellow on, and what (roughly) wire size is it?

[eyab689]

OK here's what it says on the paper '0AW abd 0B5 have a green -yellow wire from J623; OB6 and OBK do not" so seeing I have this green/yellow wire what do I do with it? So that's on the bottom of the wire diagram it's a small thin wire so I'm curious what gets d9ne with ir? It measure 1.2mm it's pretty thin. Thanks for the help seriously it means alot.

Chuck

[Smac770]

0AW is the CVT for FWD. 0B5 is the DCT in the S model. There's no green/yellow on the ZF diagrams (0B6, 0BK). What pin was that green/yellow on in your 0B6 plug? Is one of the other wires I listed missing, or are they all accounted for?

For those Audi built automatics, that wire runs back to the J623 ECM. What's interesting is on those transmission diagrams, the blue/black goes only to the J393. On the ZF diagrams, there is no green/yellow, and the blue/black goes to both the J393 and the J623. In the 6MT, that wiring seems to be for the G476 clutch position sensor. I wonder if on the automatics, it's some kind of "is the brake pressed".

[eyab689]

It went to pin number 13. All wires are accounted for.. The blue/black go to number 1.

[Smac770]

13 on the 0B6 should have been the second brown ground wire (the other on 16), not a green/yellow wire, according to the wiring diagrams.

And 13 on the 0BK should be the gray/yellow term 30 wire (which was on 14 on the 0B6, but you need a larger one for the 0BK, as noted in the chart).

Blue/black went to 10 on the 0B6, goes to 1 on the 0BK.

8K, 8T, 8R, none of them document a green/yellow for a ZF (0B6 or 0BK). If I look at the 4G (C7) wiring diagrams at the 0BK (no 0B6 in the C7 era), we do see a green/yellow, on pin 15, which is not documented as used in the B8 wiring diagrams. It's the J217's ground control line for the N509 "Transmission Fluid Cooling Valve". No idea what that is, never heard of it in the B8 discussions. But in that diagram, the blue/black is just like the ZFs for the B8, goes to both J393 and J623. So I doubt the green/yellow there is at all related to the green/yellow you have.

If we go the other direction and look at the 09E/09L 6-speed on the C6 A6, it's all the same as B8, again with an additional wire. For that, it's on pin 3, and is the K-line for the scan tool. So again, no relevance to a B8 MLB platform vehicle.

No idea on that wire. I can try and see if it's there on my 0B6, but that means getting the car in the air. When I can get to it. But you'd still need someone to visually confirm the wiring on their factory 0BK and see if any green/yellow exists.

[eyab689]

Smac770 sorry getting back late. I did take both brown wires from engine bay left term 31 and splice them together and put them in pin 14. I know the transmission I'm getting is a OBK. So I followed that pin diagram the only wire I had the question about was the but it states on the bottom that the OAW and OB5 have a green/yellow wire from J623; OB6 and OBk do not". So that's what I was wondering if it doesn't have then if you have one do you just not use it? Sorry for late reply I'm dealing with some health issues so I do a lil and have to take some time off. I appreciate your patience thanks so much for the help it means a great deal. And if you like to email me you can [email protected] if it makes ir easier.

Thanks eyeb(Chuck)

[Smac770]

Chuck, keeping it all here works best for me. Adding more interfaces to have to keep tabs on is just extra work. I never use this web site through a phone or anything like that either, PC with a 34" only for technical work.

The 16-pin harness plug 3D0973993 is used for the 0B6 and the 0AW.
The 16-pin harness plug 420973716 is used for the 0BK and the 0B5.

The green/yellow wire is from the ECM to the TCM only for the 0AW and 0B5, the Audi engineered automatics. It's an engine speed signal, and apparently only as a fallback should there be a CAN communications issue.

For the ZF engineered automatics, going all the way back to the first gen 6HP 09E and 09L through the second gen 8HP 0D5 and 0D6, I don't see that engine speed signal wire from the ECM in any wiring diagram I've looked thus far.

Did the green/yellow wire actually have a terminal pin on it? Was it actually installed into plug 3D0973993; if so, which pin position? You mentioned 13, but it could not have been that. 13 was one of the two brown ground wires.

I cannot risk issue with my vehicle, so I'm not inclined to disassemble my 15-years old plug. Even if I confirmed there was a green/yellow left there in the harness, it wouldn't help explain to us where to put it on an 0BK.

I suspect you should just tape it and park it aside. Maybe the wire was there because they started from a common harness, simply with the wires on the correct pins for the 0B6 vs 0AW, and the person didn't know what to do with the unnecessary green/yellow wire.

[eyab689]

Chuck, keeping it all here works best for me. Adding more interfaces to have to keep tabs on is just extra work. I never use this web site through a phone or anything like that either, PC with a 34" only for technical work.

The 16-pin harness plug 3D0973993 is used for the 0B6 and the 0AW.
The 16-pin harness plug 420973716 is used for the 0BK and the 0B5.

The green/yellow wire is from the ECM to the TCM only for the 0AW and 0B5, the Audi engineered automatics. It's an engine speed signal, and apparently only as a fallback should there be a CAN communications issue.

For the ZF engineered automatics, going all the way back to the first gen 6HP 09E and 09L through the second gen 8HP 0D5 and 0D6, I don't see that engine speed signal wire from the ECM in any wiring diagram I've looked thus far.

Did the green/yellow wire actually have a terminal pin on it? Was it actually installed into plug 3D0973993; if so, which pin position? You mentioned 13, but it could not have been that. 13 was one of the two brown ground wires.

I cannot risk issue with my vehicle, so I'm not inclined to disassemble my 15-years old plug. Even if I confirmed there was a green/yellow left there in the harness, it wouldn't help explain to us where to put it on an 0BK.

I suspect you should just tape it and park it aside. Maybe the wire was there because they started from a common harness, simply with the wires on the correct pins for the 0B6 vs 0AW, and the person didn't know what to do with the unnecessary green/yellow wire.

Smac770 OK let me look and see if I got a picture of the wiring so I can see where the green/yellow wire was. I'm out of town currently out in ohio. Yeah I was just curious I can understand how it is easier for you. I do appreciate your help so much.

Thanks Chuck

[eyab689]

Smac770 ok I do got a line on a PRU transmission with 34k on it for 300 bucks and free shipping. It's out of a 2014 so that sound like a good deal? I think it is but I was curious what you thought?

Thanks Chuck

[Smac770]

For the 2.0T CAE/CPM engine, the 0BK was:
MY11 - MXW
MY12 - NES then NXS
MY13 - NTA
MY14 - PRU

So should be fine, it's a correct code for the mechatronics programming and diff ratio for a 2.0T A4.

[eyab689]

Hey Smac770 I been getting stuff done around house. So I finally got transmission bolt in and the rear differential. I'm waiting on the fluid for the transmission and the gear boxes. I didn't realize there are 2 on transmission for gear oil and then the differential. So once I get that done the turbo is back in stock again. So I will be putting on the CTS 600. I ordered the 500 cause the 600 was backordered but then they made them available so I canceled order which ECS wasn't to happy about then reordered the 600. They wanted me to pay for the other one and then wait. I'm like hell no. I'm like it says it's available I'm not taking a chance been waiting since Feb not waiting anymore. So I got the KRR rear differential as well. I will probably switch out the rear shafts from Q5 to put on it. But for now I need to get it running. So I don't have to do anything goes as far as transmission goes now that it's installed and wired?

Thanks Chuxk I really appreciate the help it means alot.

[Smac770]

There's three fluid chambers in the 0BK, same as the 0B6: ATF (2), front diff gear oil (3), and center diff gear oil (4). The Torsen center diff uses a different gear oil than the front and rear diffs.
https://www.ilcats.ru/audi/?function...60&language=en

Yeah, I had a similar issue with ECS with Bilstein dampers way back. "we determined we don't have any, and it'll be three months", yeah cancel that order.

[eyab689]

Oh sweet to know...I already changed the transmission fluid and filter. The guy and junk yard used impact gun to remove fill plug so I had joy getting it out. I did the fluid change on the right side up front I didn't realize there were 2 up front. I also didn't realize the torsen in the rear used a different fluid. Getting ready to change the rear differential itself today. I got the downpipe from AWE installed last night. I will make sure I get the correct one for that rear Torsen. Thanks SMac770 I appreciate it. I will be in tough with any other issues.

Thanks Chuck

[eyab689]

Smac770...OK I got all the fluid changed. I can't believe they wanted 120 bucks a liter for the front differential where the driveshaft is and you need 2...so I called a local Audi repair place and said I could use Ligui Moly 75W90 with GL5 and that was 20 a liter...OK I have a question I figured I would see how it shifts even though I can't get it started cause the 600 turbo isn't here yet. So I put the key in and didn't start it I waited for the lights to go off then pressed the brake but it won't shift. Is this because the car needs to be running? I'm gonna double check the cable but I was curious. I guess I can double check the cable again and then shift it manually without cable attached. Thanks Chuck

[eyab689]

OK I'm not familiar with this section you wrote. Could this be this issue why it's not going into gear J217 is part of the immobilizer group, so you'll need to have the immobilizer adaptation run to get the car "working...I noticed this above reading through all the messages. Thanks Chuck

[Smac770]

Not sure what you mean by "this section you wrote". The TCM is in the immobilizer group, yes. I don't know if the SAFE mode is you can't shift, or you can't go more than very slow. To move the transmission from Park to Neutral, ignition has to be on, brake has to be pressed. You can also defeat the parking lock; you have to press that "button" under the ashtray or such. https://youtu.be/CuDhNlc9dTo?t=83

To get the car to 100%, yes, you will need the immobilizer adaptation run through to adapt the new to vehicle J217 to the immobilizer master, the J393.