Install this CTS K04 or trade up? ditch IE?

[SupraStu]

2016 allroad (CPMB)

Currently: 115,000mi, good condition. IE Stage 1 (as well as a GFB DV+, many little bushings, suspension mods, etc.)

Ready to install next weekend: 034 HFC and Wagner FMIC

Also sitting in the garage: a CTS K04 (NIB condition, recent production non-BW CHRA)

End goal: I want to run ethanol blends but IE won't develop it for the B8 platform, so to do that I must go APR or custom. I've got local APR dealers, but I prefer to flash myself and don't have a problem data logging so an HPT MPVI3 module and a custom tune seems the best route for that, plus it will be able to support a ZF8 tcu tune.

My debate: If I am already going to go the custom route, why not step up to the 2871 in the BOSS500 kit?

What do you all think:

A) Stop worrying and just bolt up the K04 with the rest of it, spend the $200 on IE credits and be done with it?

OR

B) Do only the Stage 2 stuff next weekend (only $50 in credits) and sell the K04 while it is still in new/uninstalled condition to help finance the BOSS500, HPTuners module, WPT tune combo?

I feel like since I have a late-model flex-fuel car with the bigger 2015/16 injectors, then it would be a waste for me to only go 93 octane K04, especially on the notoriously-badly-reviewed IE tune (at least for B8 K04's), though it stings selling the IE since I'll only get about ~$100+ bucks for selling the module.

[Nano909]

2016 allroad (CPMB)

Currently: 115,000mi, good condition. IE Stage 1 (as well as a GFB DV+, many little bushings, suspension mods, etc.)

Ready to install next weekend: 034 HFC and Wagner FMIC

Also sitting in the garage: a CTS K04 (NIB condition, recent production non-BW CHRA)

End goal: I want to run ethanol blends but IE won't develop it for the B8 platform, so to do that I must go APR or custom. I've got local APR dealers, but I prefer to flash myself and don't have a problem data logging so an HPT MPVI3 module and a custom tune seems the best route for that, plus it will be able to support a ZF8 tcu tune.

My debate: If I am already going to go the custom route, why not step up to the 2871 in the BOSS500 kit?

What do you all think:

A) Stop worrying and just bolt up the K04 with the rest of it, spend the $200 on IE credits and be done with it?

OR

B) Do only the Stage 2 stuff next weekend (only $50 in credits) and sell the K04 while it is still in new/uninstalled condition to help finance the BOSS500, HPTuners module, WPT tune combo?

I feel like since I have a late-model flex-fuel car with the bigger 2015/16 injectors, then it would be a waste for me to only go 93 octane K04, especially on the notoriously-badly-reviewed IE tune (at least for B8 K04's), though it stings selling the IE since I'll only get about ~$100+ bucks for selling the module.

Don't forget option C.
Option C) Install the K04 and run a WPT flex fuel tune.

[SupraStu]

Yeah, I did sort of gloss over option C.

If I did that, then would the cost of the HPT credits ($300) and the tuning itself ($???) be worth the extra power over the 93-octane-only IE K04 file ($200 upgrade cost)?

I just feel like if I’m going to go through all the logging and tuning process I might as well be getting major gains.

Should I be worried about con rods here?

[SNice]

Yeah, I did sort of gloss over option C.

If I did that, then would the cost of the HPT credits ($300) and the tuning itself ($???) be worth the extra power over the 93-octane-only IE K04 file ($200 upgrade cost)?

I just feel like if I’m going to go through all the logging and tuning process I might as well be getting major gains.

Should I be worried about con rods here?

It’s been proven over and over again that the only way to get these aftermarket hybrid turbos running right is with a custom tune.

The time, money, and effort you will waste trying to come up with mechanical solutions to a tuning problem will far exceed the cost you outlined above.(check out the K04 threads)

Also check out the 1/4mile time sticky thread in this B8 forum. There is a chart with all types of combos. The numbers don’t lie.

If you want to go BT eventually you will definitely need a custom tune anyway so why not just get the HPT stuff sooner than later and begin to take advantage of it.

HPT and a Custom tune are the only way to go on this platform at the moment (if you want everything running right) - imho. You can go with the OTS tuners but there will be issues. Also realize that they have moved on to developing tunes/products for later models and other platforms so don’t expect much more “product development” for our old platform.


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[Perry01]

Yeah, I did sort of gloss over option C.

If I did that, then would the cost of the HPT credits ($300) and the tuning itself ($???) be worth the extra power over the 93-octane-only IE K04 file ($200 upgrade cost)?

I just feel like if I’m going to go through all the logging and tuning process I might as well be getting major gains.

Should I be worried about con rods here?

No, you don’t need to worry your rods at this stage. What you need remember is that IE’s K04 tune was written for a BW K04, not a hybrid K04. IE notes this on their website. Others have experienced overboost conditions with IE’s K04 software when matched with the CTS K04. If you go that route, you will need to make a wastegate adjustment before the install.

As Nano suggests, option C seems like a good alternative.

[SupraStu]

To be clear, this turbo I have now is not a hybrid style. This is part no. CTS-TR-1070. The most recent revision they have of the standard K04, but as far as I know, not actually manufactured by BorgWarner.

I could probably sell the K04 for what I’ve got in it (~$1,000USD) and the Memorial Day Sale price for a B500 is ~$2,200, so about a $1,300 or so delta after tax. If I go this route, that is.

[SNice]

To be clear, this turbo I have now is not a hybrid style. This is part no. CTS-TR-1070. The most recent revision they have of the standard K04, but as far as I know, not actually manufactured by BorgWarner.

I could probably sell the K04 for what I’ve got in it (~$1,000USD) and the Memorial Day Sale price for a B500 is ~$2,200, so about a $1,300 or so delta after tax. If I go this route, that is.

We get caught up in the hybrid or no hybrid terminology all the time. The point is if the turbo is not the same as the one that the tune was developed for - you will run into issues at some point. The only way around this is a custom tune.

I have the CTS TR 1070 currently installed an running. Runs great and very happy with it (even though I want more ;)). I was able to get close on my OTS tune with wastegate adjustments,etc.. Overboosting and throttle cuts were my problem. All solved once I went with a WPT custom tune. Now I can focus on performance rather than just getting it to run right.

…but if I had to do it all over - I probably would have skipped the K04 and jumped right to Big Turbo Land!


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[SupraStu]

So are the only true non-“hybrid” K04’s the APR and Unitronic (for longitudinal platforms)?

I had always considered hybrid referred to the next class up with the extended tip comp wheels, like the F23, TTE440, K04-X, etc.

Does the CTS-TR-1070 actually sit in between those two?

[SNice]

So are the only true non-“hybrid” K04’s the APR and Unitronic (for longitudinal platforms)?

I had always considered hybrid referred to the next class up with the extended tip comp wheels, like the F23, TTE440, K04-X, etc.

Does the CTS-TR-1070 actually sit in between those two?

I always thought a hybrid turbo was stock housings with bigger/modified internals (compressor/turbine).

It depends on who you ask. Not sure what the “right” answer is. Regardless - it makes sense that different compressors/turbines will behave differently even if they are the same size. So a tune should ideally be specific to a turbo.


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[Perry01]

So are the only true non-“hybrid” K04’s the APR and Unitronic (for longitudinal platforms)?

I had always considered hybrid referred to the next class up with the extended tip comp wheels, like the F23, TTE440, K04-X, etc.

Does the CTS-TR-1070 actually sit in between those two?

Unless the turbo has the same geometry of turbine and compressor wheels and same wheel sizes as the OE K04 then it’s a hybrid. The only non-hybrid K04 is the Borg Warner K04-0064. It came as OE on the MK6 Golf R and S3. CTS modified it to fit the EA888.2 (longitudinal platform) but discontinued it over six years ago.

Some hybrids have machined housings and use bigger turbines/compressor wheels. Other hybrids are more of a remake of the same k04-064 wheel sizes with slight differences like turbine clipping or billet compressor wheels with different blade geometry.

[marshallnoise]

Unless the turbo has the same geometry of turbine and compressor wheels and same wheel sizes, then it’s a hybrid. The only non-hybrid K04 is the Borg Warner K04-0064. It came as OE on the MK6 Golf R and S3. CTS modified it to fit the EA888.2 (longitudinal platform) and discontinued it over six years ago.

Some hybrids have machined housings and use bigger turbines/compressor wheels. Other hybrids are more of remake of the same k04-064 wheel sizes just with slight differences like turbine clipping or billet compressor wheels with different blade geometry.

So, if I got one of those K04-0064 turbos, it should bolt right up and I could run the OOB K04 tune from IE and it should be happy?

[Perry01]

So, if I got one of those K04-0064 turbos, it should bolt right up and I could run the OOB K04 tune from IE and it should be happy?

In theory, yes. Their K04 software was written using my vehicle (equipped with a BW K04) for development. The problem is CTS discontinued the turbo over six years ago. I haven’t seen one for sale in years. I think you would be better off using the CTS-1070 you have sitting new in a box and going with a custom flex-fuel tune from WPT. I’ve been using ethanol blends for a while and I really notice a difference.

[JLAllroad]

As an aside, being able to run E85 is a bit better than running 100oct (on the cheap), regardless of turbo (stock, K04, BT) you will see/feel significant gains, being able to run any percentage of E on the fly (flex tune) priceless.


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[marshallnoise]

In theory, yes. Their K04 software was written using my vehicle (equipped with a BW K04) for development. The problem is CTS discontinued the turbo over six years ago. I haven’t seen one for sale in years. I think you would be better off using the CTS-1070 you have sitting new in a box and going with a custom flex-fuel tune from WPT. I’ve been using ethanol blends for a while and I really notice a difference.

I'm not the same guy who has a CTS-1070, FYI. Thanks for responding though! Good to know about this option. I don't have a turbo sitting in a box, so I am working from scratch. Didn't meant to thread hijack.

@JLAllroad, E is supposed to be the bee's knees. I have been running a mix of e85 and 87 octane combined with my IE Stage 1 93 octane tune and have not had any issues. Before I get any cautionary tales, I have a spare engine waiting to go in should I grenade this one.

[Nano909]

Yeah, I did sort of gloss over option C.

If I did that, then would the cost of the HPT credits ($300) and the tuning itself ($???) be worth the extra power over the 93-octane-only IE K04 file ($200 upgrade cost)?

I just feel like if I’m going to go through all the logging and tuning process I might as well be getting major gains.

Should I be worried about con rods here?

Yes it's worth it. Not only are you getting your E85 capabilities back, you're also getting a true custom tune and not a 10 year old tune that can't even be optimized. Put that together with WPT's awesome customer service, and no limit to how many maps you can have. And if in the future you want to go Boss500 or bigger, then you'll be ready to easily tune it as well.

In this day and age, no one with a B8 should ever buy a staged tune.

[SupraStu]

Yes it's worth it. Not only are you getting your E85 capabilities back, you're also getting a true custom tune and not a 10 year old tune that can't even be optimized. Put that together with WPT's awesome customer service, and no limit to how many maps you can have. And if in the future you want to go Boss500 or bigger, then you'll be ready to easily tune it as well.

In this day and age, no one with a B8 should ever buy a staged tune.

I really have to agree with you here, but I felt I had to ask. I don’t think I’ll have all that shipped & set up before my install day, so I think I’ll do only the intercooler and stop wasting even another $50 on the IE flash link (Stage 1>2 cost).

Next step: pick a dealer or find a used mpvi3 and load up 10 credits (6 for med17.1.1 + 4 for ZF8).

Reset and unlink IE and start the baseline tune process with Tyler.

Then install turbo & hfc at the same time.

But I’m still not sold on the 1070 k04 vs B500. If Tyler can do either just as easily, and neither is a “real” B/W mfg’d chra anyways, and I won’t really need to open up the bottom end since the very nature of a custom tune would mean the tuner knows and accounts for the torque in process, then help me understand the drawbacks (other than cost, as outlined earlier).

I would not consider the 600 for this build.

[Nano909]

The MPVI3 is a great tool to have. Definitely buy it.

The 1070 is a cool turbo for today's market. You can also sell it and buy the K04x instead. Or perhaps switch up the CHRA in the 1070 to something better. There's really no limit to what you can do when you custom tune.

I'd stay away from the China Boss500. If you can find a legit Garrett Boss500 then I'd jump on that. Otherwise, I don't recall anyone having issues with the 1070. The 1070 with a WPT flex fuel tune and your Allroad gearing will be a great combo to kill mostly anything on the streets.

[JLAllroad]

I would suggest losing those APR coils, see a pretty high failure rate and what’s worse, they don’t just fail they cause intermittent misfires.


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[SupraStu]

I'd stay away from the China Boss500. If you can find a legit Garrett Boss500 then I'd jump on that. Otherwise, I don't recall anyone having issues with the 1070. The 1070 with a WPT flex fuel tune and your Allroad gearing will be a great combo to kill mostly anything on the streets.

What gives the Chinese-made 1070 a better reputation than the Chinese-made BOSS turbos? (This might sound confrontational, so please take it at face value only)

Also, while I do understand your point, I feel better buying NIB rather than used turbos. On the one hand, a used turbo has been proven to not be dead out of the box, but also has unknown history. And they are hard to find; I might wait all summer until one pops up.

[Nano909]

What gives the Chinese-made 1070 a better reputation than the Chinese-made BOSS turbos? (This might sound confrontational, so please take it at face value only)

Also, while I do understand your point, I feel better buying NIB rather than used turbos. On the one hand, a used turbo has been proven to not be dead out of the box, but also has unknown history. And they are hard to find; I might wait all summer until one pops up.

I know of only a few people with the China Boss500 and all of them had issues. The 1070 has been good so far with those I know using it. By this time it's already been a few years. Maybe someone else will chime in. Snice has said he loves it as well.

I don't disagree. I would rather buy new as well, but I wouldn't hesitate to buy a used Garrett Boss500 over a new China Boss500.

[SNice]

I know of only a few people with the China Boss500 and all of them had issues. The 1070 has been good so far with those I know using it. By this time it's already been a few years. Maybe someone else will chime in. Snice has said he loves it as well.

I don't disagree. I would rather buy new as well, but I wouldn't hesitate to buy a used Garrett Boss500 over a new China Boss500.

Yup - very happy with my TR-1070. I’ve had it installed since 2020. I did have some wastegate crack pressure issues in the beginning but that was only with an OTS GIAC tune. I did upgrade the actuator and the diverter valve. Once I had the WPT custom tune - all issues were solved. Had I gone custom tune in the beginning I probably would not have needed to mess with the wastegate.

I’m also CPMB flex fuel (2014).


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[Jason11213]

I’ve had both the TR 1070 and 1070-X. Currently running the X version and haven’t had any issues with either. Ended up selling the 1070 when I upgraded to the X.

[Nano909]

I’ve had both the TR 1070 and 1070-X. Currently running the X version and haven’t had any issues with either. Ended up selling the 1070 when I upgraded to the X.

I say OP sells the 1070 and goes for the X.

[SupraStu]

I am leaning more towards the 1070-X at this point.

What’s my power-limiting factor at that point?
Fuel? Are the S3 injectors still an upgrade for the ‘15 & ‘16 model years?

I also feel like stock cat-back will get restrictive around that time as well, but that’s a different convo. I’ll figure later.

[SupraStu]

Let me clarify:

Will full E85 on a 1070-X stress or max the OE injectors?

From what I can find, the B8.5 2.0 main injectors are 1050cc/min, S3 injectors are just over 1200, and the Mabotech customs are around 1500, right?

I may not make any more power than ~40-50% ethanol, but it would make it easier to fill up without mixing at the pump.

[SupraStu]

Man, I gotta tell y’all, Jake dropping the 20G kit last week really threw me for a loop. I’ve got the FMIC on now, and everything feels fine. Ready for the next step.

So… if I really did skip the K04 altogether, my build list grows quite a bit, but it’s not out of the realm of possibility. Here’s what I figure so far:

JHM 20G “tuner” kit $2,200 (Mem Day sale)
JHM dual outlet cat-back $1,300 (eurocode’s regular price is better than JHM direct on sale?)
Mabotechs $850 (I’ve read the idle on these can be better controlled than the Nostrums?)
HPFP piston $350
MPVI3 $400
HPT credits (6+4) $500
p3 gauge $350 (cuz I want one :D )
install my 034 hfc (free)
WPT tune(s) ($??? Hopefully less than a grand)
Did I miss anything?

That puts me at somewhere close to $7k for what would get me a low 12 / high 11 second car that’s still comfortable.

Or I could sell it as a stage 1/2 and buy something else entirely. I had a “sporty” wagon as a compromise family car, but now that my wife has an Outback, I’ve been conflicted over converting the allroad from daily to project/fun status. One the one hand, it’s a known good value. On the other, it can still fetch a decent price and I could go a whole other route.

*sigh*

[Tech/Sales@JHM]

Man, I gotta tell y’all, Jake dropping the 20G kit last week really threw me for a loop. I’ve got the FMIC on now, and everything feels fine. Ready for the next step.

So… if I really did skip the K04 altogether, my build list grows quite a bit, but it’s not out of the realm of possibility. Here’s what I figure so far:

JHM 20G “tuner” kit $2,200 (Mem Day sale)
JHM dual outlet cat-back $1,300 (eurocode’s regular price is better than JHM direct on sale?)
Mabotechs $850 (I’ve read the idle on these can be better controlled than the Nostrums?)
HPFP piston $350
MPVI3 $400
HPT credits (6+4) $500
p3 gauge $350 (cuz I want one :D )
install my 034 hfc (free)
WPT tune(s) ($??? Hopefully less than a grand)
Did I miss anything?

That puts me at somewhere close to $7k for what would get me a low 12 / high 11 second car that’s still comfortable.

Or I could sell it as a stage 1/2 and buy something else entirely. I had a “sporty” wagon as a compromise family car, but now that my wife has an Outback, I’ve been conflicted over converting the allroad from daily to project/fun status. One the one hand, it’s a known good value. On the other, it can still fetch a decent price and I could go a whole other route.

*sigh*

I love the idea of going this route with the TD05 Kit. I have had 2 cars now with the TD05 and they were both very fun and super reliable. I would go this route if I were you simply saying it will be a far more enjoyable car in my opinion.

Dru@JHM

[19birel]

I mean if you're considering jumping platform, that $7k goes much farther in an MQB based VAG car. I say this with both a FBO Stage 2+ B8.5 and a big turbo MK7.5 GTI in my garage. Get an A3 to retain AWD, throw a Vortex std turbo on with an hpfp and your typical basic bolt-ons and it will fly (you can probably do this for $4k). You will be spoiled for choice with the turbo and tuning options on the MQB platform.

There's cheaper options too, for reference, my GTI (same engine as A3) has ~$2,500 in mods with a conservative tune and has taken down a C7.5 S7 and a 6th gen Camaro SS.

If you're inclined to keep the allroad though, I get it, your outlined plans are still pretty darn sweet!

[SupraStu]

I mean if you're considering jumping platform, that $7k goes much farther in an MQB based VAG car. I say this with both a FBO Stage 2+ B8.5 and a big turbo MK7.5 GTI in my garage. Get an A3 to retain AWD, throw a Vortex std turbo on with an hpfp and your typical basic bolt-ons and it will fly (you can probably do this for $4k). You will be spoiled for choice with the turbo and tuning options on the MQB platform.

There's cheaper options too, for reference, my GTI (same engine as A3) has ~$2,500 in mods with a conservative tune and has taken down a C7.5 S7 and a 6th gen Camaro SS.

If you're inclined to keep the allroad though, I get it, your outlined plans are still pretty darn sweet!

“Considering” might be too strong a verb…
If I went MQB, it would prob be a Golf R over an A3/S3 tbh. Sedans bore me, so I’d go hatch. It would be faster than the allroad, for sure, but I’m not totally sold on the idea.

[19birel]

“Considering” might be too strong a verb…
If I went MQB, it would prob be a Golf R over an A3/S3 tbh. Sedans bore me, so I’d go hatch. It would be faster than the allroad, for sure, but I’m not totally sold on the idea.

I agree the hatches look better to my eyes too

I get that though, definitely more to choosing a car than mod potential, and you still have a potent platform on your hands, especially with the JHM offering now available


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[SupraStu]

Well, I appreciate everyone’s thoughts and concerns, but enough of all that contemplative bs and time for some action…




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[SNice]

Well, I appreciate everyone’s thoughts and concerns, but enough of all that contemplative bs and time for some action…




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Woo hoo! I think you made the right choice for your goals! Can’t wait to see what this new option can do!

(All this talk is also motivating me to get back to action!)


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[Jason11213]

Are you going to tune with JHM or WPT?

[SupraStu]

Are you going to tune with JHM or WPT?

I know it’s more expensive this way, but I would like to see what Tyler can do with this turbo and I don’t mind the extra time it will take. I also already had the MPVI3 on the way when Jake posted that video.


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[SupraStu]

Also, this past week I found some older posts here and VWVortex and it looks like the Nostrums are actually the way to go. Plus they are $200 cheaper than Mabotechs shipped if you go direct to the Nostrum shop site.

[SupraStu]

Nostrum shipped immediately and will be here this week.
MPVI3 is here and credits loaded.
JHM said all the parts for the exhaust are in stock and should be built quickly.

K04 posted for sale in classifieds.

Not sure about y’all, but I’m excited! Would be nice to get this all installed and tuned in time to get some results on a track. Next availability for that is second weekend in August. That gives me about 9 weeks to put this together.

[19birel]

Heck yeah! Can't wait to see this some times when she's dialed!

[SupraStu]

Here is the new TD05 kit next to a K04. Major flow differences in this manifold. HFC test fits just fine.





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[marshallnoise]

Boner alert!

[A4 Centaur]

Holy shit!