TROUBLE re timing my 2011 AUDI A4

[fmontalvo311]

Me and my dad have worked on cars a lot and I just recently bought this car 139,000 mi. I found that the harmonic balancer was wobbling and mechanic told me I had to re do the entire timing chain if a new harmonic balancer didn't fix the issue. I proceeded did everything perfect (or so it seemed), from the manual and multiple videos. Once all done I crank the engine and it cranks and cranks but doesn't ignite. I check and it's the same code p0016. I start turning the crank by hand maybe 15-20 times just double checking if maybe the crank moved or wasn't TDC, idk. as I'm turning it slowly, I feel it have resistance and I was like f*** this I was scared to damage anything, I tried to see if I could turn it backward and it would probable only go 45-60 degrees the opposite way as well. Because I can't turn it back to TDC, I feel.
The only solution is to take the valve cover off, remove the cam shafts, then turn the crank to TDC, then put the cam shafts back to be able to retime it.

[StuckAntichris]

If you feel like the timing is off, put the car in service position so you can see everything clearly. It doesn't take long and is worth the time for the access it gives you. Once you get the cams out of the way go ahead and take the lower timing cover back off so you can line up the timing marks again.

Did you measure between the cam's timing marks when you were putting it back together?
It can be tricky when putting the balancer back on since the keyway is not very pronounced. Some people here have put paint marks when reinstalling to make sure it gets back in the right position.

When you get the engine re-timed, take some pictures of all the timing marks and balance shaft marks and post them here. We have quite a few members that have done this many times and are very helpful.

[Theiceman]

Me and my dad have worked on cars a lot and I just recently bought this car 139,000 mi. I found that the harmonic balancer was wobbling and mechanic told me I had to re do the entire timing chain if a new harmonic balancer didn't fix the issue. I proceeded did everything perfect (or so it seemed), from the manual and multiple videos. Once all done I crank the engine and it cranks and cranks but doesn't ignite. I check and it's the same code p0016. I start turning the crank by hand maybe 15-20 times just double checking if maybe the crank moved or wasn't TDC, idk. as I'm turning it slowly, I feel it have resistance and I was like f*** this I was scared to damage anything, I tried to see if I could turn it backward and it would probable only go 45-60 degrees the opposite way as well. Because I can't turn it back to TDC, I feel.
The only solution is to take the valve cover off, remove the cam shafts, then turn the crank to TDC, then put the cam shafts back to be able to retime it.

ummm no ....

you do NOT want to remove that cover, unless you believe you have bent the valves or have more going on .

Do you have the factory manual ?
front timing covers have to come off to time cams ( at least the top one ) .. I hope you have not bent any valves. but if you are playing with the damper , id take all the timing covers off and inspect carefully

[MongoMcG]

ummm no ....

you do NOT want to remove that cover, unless you believe you have bent the valves or have more going on .
...
I hope you have not bent any valves. but if you are playing with the damper , id take all the timing covers off and inspect carefully

Agree. "Let's see what happens" is not a good strategy here. Especially after rotating the engine backwards which can result in the chain skipping a tooth/teeth. If the spark plugs are in while rotating by hand there will be increasing resistance as each cylinder reaches the top of its compression stroke and could also explain the difficulty in rotating backwards (never a good idea).

[fmontalvo311]

If I feel there is resistance when turning the crank shaft forward, then how do I go about retiming it, if it isn't TDC

- - - Updated - - -

Spark plugs where out

[fmontalvo311]

yes measured the marks multiple times, after car would just crank and crank, measured over and over again as well. And yes I had paint marks and everything on the new sprocket I bought.
Unless you guys know of a way I can bring it to TDC without accidentally hitting a valve...
At a loss though.

[fmontalvo311]

Yes I have the Erwin factory repair manual and followed It, Also the upper timing cover is off at the moment.

[Theiceman]

chain has to come off. back off crank so all are roughly in the middle of stroke, reset cams and lock them then you should be able to draw up cyl one to tdc and put chain on at the right spot .. then release pin on tensioner

if you do this and you have solid interference, you have bent a valve.

[fmontalvo311]

If I turn the crank while the chain is off won't it forsure hit the valves?
Also I just checked and cylinders 2 and 3 are near the top, cylinders 1 and 4 are near the bottom, they are about 85 mm from each other.

[Theiceman]

well the idea is to take the chain off so you don't. sounds like you are not at TDC for any piston right now.. so you set the cam and slowly bring piston one up to TDC.. cylinder 2 and 3 should be going down and cylinder 4 should be fine as 1 and 4 always move together . manual should explain this

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[DanielHamilton]

If I turn the crank while the chain is off won't it forsure hit the valves?
Also I just checked and cylinders 2 and 3 are near the top, cylinders 1 and 4 are near the bottom, they are about 85 mm from each other.

Theoretically, if you take the chain off without locking the cams, they'll each rotate from spring pressure to their "neutral" rest position (intake goes clockwise, exhaust goes CCW). So you *should* be safe to rotate the crank to TDC at that point, but I would definitely get the willies doing so without knowing for sure that the valves were closed.

What I would do (and what the manual advises when replacing cams entirely) is take the chain off, back the crank away from TDC about 45 degrees (I like to put a long extension in the #1 spark plug hole; it'll ride the top of the piston so you can see what it's doing), and then get the cams to approximately their TDC position. You don't have to worry about hitting valves because none of the pistons will be at the top of their stroke. TDC is about 11 o'clock for the exhaust cam and 1 o'clock for the intake cam. From there, measure from the valve cover ridge to the intake cam, get it to about 64mm, then lock the intake cam. Measure 125mm from the intake to exhaust cam, then lock the exhaust cam. Your cams are now at TDC (approximately - they'll probably be off a tooth or two, but that's fine).

Now put the timing chain on, starting with the intake cam colored link. This is backwards from the part of the manual that describes replacing the chain; in that procedure, you're timing the cams to the crank. Here though, you're timing the crank to the cams; TDC does not matter. What matters is the relationship between the crank and the intake cam. It's nerve wracking, but if you think about it it makes sense; the valves are in their TDC position, so they're "ready" for the piston to get to TDC. You won't hit them.

Since your crank is rotated 45 deg CCW, the mark for the crank tooth that times to the crank colored link will be off. So now you rotate the crank CW slowly until you can slip the colored link over the marked tooth (it's tricky to see because it's at the six o'clock on the sprocket). Now your intake and crank are timed. You'll be off by a few teeth on the exhaust cam, so you'll want to unlock it individually and use the wrench flats behind the sprocket to rotate it so you can get the colored link onto the right tooth. Then lock the exhaust cam too.

Now you're in time, but you have to get all the tensioners back on; if you unlock the cams in this position, they like to jump out of time from valve spring pressure. So get the right guide, tensioner, and top guide bolted in. Then work the left guide in but leave the intake locked. You'll have to unlock the exhaust cam to get the left guide in position; this was a PITA for me because my exhaust cam kept jumping back a tooth when I unlocked it, and with the tensioner still pinned, there's not enough tension on the chain to really hold it. The manual says to have a helper hold the cam with a wrench but I didn't have a helper. I eventually stole a trick from Humble Mechanic: zip tie the chain to the exhaust sprocket. Worked perfect.

Once you have all the guides in, pull the pin on the tensioner. Then you can unlock the intake cam, cut the zip tie, put the bridge on, and be on your merry way.

[fmontalvo311]

So, your saying to remove the chain, move the crank slightly backwards(in my situation is the shortest path to make sure all the pistons are not at TDC [all in the middle free from interference]), then move the cams to be at 11 and 1 o clock?
Then. after locking the cams, I can move the crank to TDC, since the cams are locked at 11 and 1?

[DanielHamilton]

Exactly. I added some more detail for clarity, but it sounds like you understand the fundamental procedure.

[fmontalvo311]

If the top cams are at 11 and 1, there is no possible way the crank will hit a valve?
turning the crank clockwise a whole 190-200 degrees?

[fmontalvo311]

The harmonic balancer timing notch is at about 9 o clock. going clock wise will bring pistons 2 and 3 up toward TDC.
So do you feel its safer to turn the crank counter clockwise the 150 degrees about, which is the shortest path to TDC for 1 and 4.
of course after having the cams at 11 and 1.
Because it wouldn't be safe to go fully clock wise, as pistons 2 and 3 will be approaching TDC then dropping after, before 1 and 4 approach TDC.
Kinda get what im saying?

[DanielHamilton]

I get what you're saying.

No matter where the crank is, there will always be a way to get it to TDC on cylinder 1 without passing through TDC for cylinders 2/3. That's what you want to do.

Or the nuclear option is to pull the valve cover and take out the cams. It's kind of a pain because the cam bearings are integrated with the valve cover, so all the bolts are single-use. It also uses silicone sealant, not a gasket, so some technique is required. It's not hard, just takes time and patience. You've also got to be really careful with the exhaust cam because the sliding lobes have little ball spring detent lockers that fly out and disappear forever if you fiddle with it too much.

That would also allow you to see the top of the valve stems, which could show you if you've bent any valves. If you've already done so, no sense worrying about timing.

[fmontalvo311]

one thing im starting work on it tomorrow.
I was having trouble taking off the harmonic balancer and wasn't able to turn it to a good spot to have leverage on the frame, due to me being scared to interfere.
When the pistons are in the middle, and the cam is in its neutral state, do you think is the best time to try to take the crankshaft bolt off?
Just in case there is slight movement when turning the tool with the pegs, if it slips by accident.

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Hard to explain but, should I try to take the crank off when it's in the neutral state or should I set it 11 and 1 then do it?

[Smac770]

It doesn't matter, you're taking it all apart. You can move anything as you need afterwards.

[Theiceman]

It doesn't matter, you're taking it all apart. You can move anything as you need afterwards.

^ this

[fmontalvo311]

Daniel Hamilton said, where I can move it without having take take the cams off.
Do you feel that's a good idea?

[fmontalvo311]

lmk Theiceman, if you feel that's a good idea. you can see how Hamilton explains in the big paragraph. Assuming I don't have bent valves as I never put much pressure on the crank to begin with

[Theiceman]

i told you the same think in the post before his. your pistons arent at TDC so just take the chain off, set the cams. then put chain on with links in correct places. brining the piston up to get the last link in place on the crank, then set the tensioner, roateta twice, do your measurement

[fmontalvo311]

Just got the whole new chain on, everything lines up and was able to turn the crank twice to see if everything turns freely and it did.
My question is, if there is a permanent code for P0016, how long would it take for that to clear? or is it immediately, once the car starts to crank?

[Theiceman]

Just got the whole new chain on, everything lines up and was able to turn the crank twice to see if everything turns freely and it did.
My question is, if there is a permanent code for P0016, how long would it take for that to clear? or is it immediately, once the car starts to crank?

it doesnt " heal" reset the code with a scanner..

also when you did your two complete rotations did you bring it to TDC again and measure your 62mm and 124mm again ? if it all checks out , good to go .

[BlkS5]

NEVER TURN BACKWARDS

[fmontalvo311]

But does the code not come back after clearing it once, the timing chain is done?
or does it need to be on/ actually drivem for a while? Yes ,everything's all good measured 125 and 63, all links as well.

[DanielHamilton]

If you've fixed the issue, cleared the code, and you're sure the engine is timed, it shouldn't come back.

If it does come back, you have another problem. Possibly the phaser or the cam position sensor.

[Theiceman]

But does the code not come back after clearing it once, the timing chain is done?
or does it need to be on/ actually drivem for a while? Yes ,everything's all good measured 125 and 63, all links as well.

no it will not if you fixed the issue . if you have vcds monitor Intake phase adaption

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[fmontalvo311]

could you explain that again, sorry Theiceman.
my code reader is just a regular VW reader autophix. is intake phase adaption only on cars that have had it programmed?
sorry real confused

[Allowencer]

OP, I think you really need to post pictures of what you're seeing and what you've specifically measured.

Have you read through my engine thread where I explain and discuss, in very good detail, how this is done?

I have a feeling what you're interpreting from us is different than what we're actually saying and that is misleading you down the incorrect path.

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