Modern oil weight recommendations . . .

[ingraha3]

My 2018 A5 Sportback takes recommended 5W-40 synthetic. I'm curious why the newer A5 recommendations are for 0W-20. I would think the 2023 A5's engine/turbo would require heavier weighted protection. Is this strictly for improved fuel economy or have the engine tolerances changed?

Have a great weekend.

[kuroitenpi2]

Where are you seeing that weight recommendation? I have a 2018 A5 as well and it calls for 0w20. I use 0w30 though.

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[ingraha3]

The attached document above is from the 2018 Audi Maintenance Schedule.

[JohnEnglish]

I think the general consensus is that the oil weight recommendations were changed for fuel economy reasons.

[ingraha3]

Attachment 323133

[ingraha3]

Where are you seeing that weight recommendation? I have a 2018 A5 as well and it calls for 0w20. I use 0w30 though.

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Where do you see the 0W-20 recommendation for your 2018 A5?
Thank you.

[ingraha3]

I think the general consensus is that the oil weight recommendations were changed for fuel economy reasons.

Thanks John!

[Smac770]

"why the newer A5 recommendations are for 0W-20", because it's not the same engine.

The CYMC Gen3 evo engine took 502, which Audi dropped across the board and replaced with 504 starting MY19.
The DBPA Gen3 b-cycle engine takes 508.
The MY21+ DPAA Gen4 evo and DMSA Gen4 b-cycle engines take 508.

[ingraha3]

"why the newer A5 recommendations are for 0W-20", because it's not the same engine.

The CYMC Gen3 evo engine took 502, which Audi dropped across the board and replaced with 504 starting MY19.
The DBPA Gen3 b-cycle engine takes 508.
The MY21+ DPAA Gen4 evo and DMSA Gen4 b-cycle engines take 508.

Appreciate the clarification.

[Gregory_Tolson]

The recommended oil weight is listed in the engine bay on a sticker. My '19 A5 Sportback recommends 0W-30. Pretty sure '18-'20 A5's use the same oil weight

[ingraha3]

https://www.audizine.com/forum/attac...&thumb=1&stc=1


My 2018 A5 Sticker just lists 502 00 & 504 00, not a specific weight.

[wwhan]

My 2019 RS5 under hood Sticker lists VW504 00 & SAE 0W-30 weight.

[wwhan]

For 502.00, only one weight oil recommended; 5W-40

For 508.00 oil, only one weight oil recommended; 0W-20

For 504.00 oil, only two weights of oil are recommended; 0W-30 & 5W-30



B-cycle engine uses 508.00 oil

[Gregory_Tolson]

0W-20 and 5W-20 are basically the same so the same must be for 0W-30 and 5W-30. My 2003 BMW Z4 with the M54 motor says it can use 5W-30 and 5W-40. Gotta imagine these 2 weights can be used interchangeably for the most part. From my experience with the BMW people mentioned they went 5W-30 earlier in its life and then when surpassing 100k miles they move up to 5W-40. Something about a thicker oil at operating temps helps the engine run smoother when it has a lot of miles.

[Smac770]

502 baseline is 5w-40, but 502 compliant oils can be found as 0w and 5w and as -30 and -40.
504 was originally baselined as 5w-30, but then was adjusted to 0w-30. So you'll find 504 compliant oils in both viscosities.
508 will only be found as 0w-20. This is 508.00, not to be confused with the 508.88 which is South America specific and a 5w-40.
511 will only be found as 0w-40.

The spec is important, whatever viscosity is fine as long as it's spec compliant. Spec first, viscosity second, as the spec will inherently limit the viscosity options.

You won't find a 5w-20 oil that passed 508. Is the spec artificial in requiring 0w? Is there just no need for a supplier to validate a 5w20 when they can just make a 0w20 in the modern era? No idea.

Adjustment for age, yeah, probably a thing. But nothing we'll get statistically valid insight on as that would take money, and the manufacturers have no interest in how their engines shift and how to accommodate that after 1/4 million miles, etc.

[ingraha3]

I'm trying to learn what I can regarding the benefits and limitations of low SAPS(504) and high SAPS(502) oils with regards to DI Audi engines. Some would argue that we don't get the benefits of low SAPS here in North America due to inferior fuel quality compared to Europe. I'll probably just continue to use M1 0W40.

[Smac770]

502/505 (ACEA A3/B4) is from the 90s. 503/506 was introduced as a long life / flexible change interval alternative. 504/507 (ACEA C3) replaced 503/506 with a low saps formulation suitable for particulate filters. That's why 502 was dropped and replaced by 504 in MY19, when GPFs were now required in EU. That didn't impact US spec vehicles, so not sure why AoA bothered changing 502 to 504. The CYMC engine was unchanged. But probably just following the corporate ball. 508/509 is ACEA C5 spec, seems to be strictly about better mileage over C3. 511 is a heavier weight C3 spec for the 4.0T, in 0w-40. The 3.0T uses 508 but the 2.9T uses 504, so some probably use 504 in their 3.0T because they feel better, as the relevant parts seem the same. But the 2.0T b-cycle is different specifically to handle the 508 viscosity. As for the MY21+ Gen4 evo (DPAA), since it was built with 508 in mind from the start, probably stick to 508. As for changing from 502 to 504 in a CYMC, I don't know why you'd bother. We don't do flex intervals here, and we don't have GPFs.

[sammo]

I find there are more options in 502 spec here in Australia. From what you're saying, 502 is as good as 504 in a 2019 RS5 (safety / longevity wise), given we also did not get particulate filters back then. Correct?

[Smac770]

Like the CYMC, the DECA engine oil spec in MY18 was 502. It was replaced with 504 in MY19, not for any reason of engine component change. Every 502 usage in MY18 was replaced with 504 starting MY19. Probably a factory fill change, since maybe they didn't want to start messing with two different oil loads depending on target market. Which seems odd given all the other vehicle parts that vary by emissions standard, including the GPF exhaust parts. But the only oil you'll find in the parts catalog under the B9 RS5 is the 504 0w30 p/n.

It's interesting that Audi's label terms in the parts catalog for 502 is "high lubricity" and the others "long life". And don't see any 508.88/509.99 even under Brazil, wonder if that's an outdated concern for down there.

As for is 502 5w40 better than 504 5w30, get searching and have fun reading the too-many-pages debates on that subject that come up over and over again. Because after spec and viscosity, then you get into the chemical composition and LSPI, etc. But I think for the CWGD, it's not a stretch to say 504 0w30 is perfectly fine over 508 0w20, unless you ever need to make a warranty claim re engine failure. Then you probably need to hope you used the Audi spec on your purchase documentation.

[ingraha3]

Smac770, I appreciate your knowledge and insight. In your opinion, is there any reason for me not to continue to use M1 0W-40 for my 2018 A5 SB with IE Stage I? We share the same weather as I am near Nashville and I typically stick to 5K OCI.
Appreciate your opinion and anyone else who wants to share their thoughts.
👍🏻

[Smac770]

If it's the 502 spec compliant Mobile 1 FS 0w-40 (https://www.mobil.com/en/lubricants/...bil-1-fs-0w-40), then that's the spec for your MY18 CYMC engine anyway. So it's "a correct oil". Is it the best 502 spec oil? That's a debate I don't really get into. I personally use 502 spec compliant Castrol Edge Euro Car 5w-40.

[Gregory_Tolson]

Oil.jpg
Finally took a pic of the sticker on '19 A5 SB. the '18 model is the same engine. Must of put a different sticker on that year. Seeing your sticker says 504 you probably should just go 0W-30 and be done with it. I use this stuff from FCP euro and ship back the used oil and oil filter and drain plug, costs me only the initial purchase price and $20 afterwards (shipping costs via USPS) since FCP gives you your money back on all the parts. I get 6 liters and a Mann Filter and Drain Plug
https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/0w3...qui-moly-22158
https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/0w3...qui-moly-22156
https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/vw-...mann-06l115562
https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/aud...teco-06l103801
https://blog.fcpeuro.com/what-happen...rts-to-fcpeuro

[ingraha3]

If it's the 502 spec compliant Mobile 1 FS 0w-40 (https://www.mobil.com/en/lubricants/...bil-1-fs-0w-40), then that's the spec for your MY18 CYMC engine anyway. So it's "a correct oil". Is it the best 502 spec oil? That's a debate I don't really get into. I personally use 502 spec compliant Castrol Edge Euro Car 5w-40.

Appreciate it.

[ingraha3]

Oil.jpg
Finally took a pic of the sticker on '19 A5 SB. the '18 model is the same engine. Must of put a different sticker on that year. Seeing your sticker says 504 you probably should just go 0W-30 and be done with it.

I hear you and appreciate it. Just can't separate myself from the idea that 40 weight is possibly more engine/turbo protective in the Summer heat. I know I'm overthinking it, just certainly wish Audi would have clarified why they removed the 502.00 approval from year 2018 to 2019.

[RMode]

I hear you and appreciate it. Just can't separate myself from the idea that 40 weight is possibly more engine/turbo protective in the Summer heat. I certainly wish Audi would have clarified why they removed the 502.00 approval from 2018 to '19.

Because a new spec came out and cafe laws change all the time.

The owners manual goes through your options for oil. As I recall the 504 is your spec if it’s a ‘19 2.0. If it’s an ‘18, it’s 502. The manual will list all compatible viscosities.


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[Smac770]

Believe we already mentioned it, 502 is not particulate filter compatible. MY19 introduced GPF for the EU market.

"The new rules will apply for all new car models by September 2017 and for all new vehicles by September 2018"
"In practice, all gasoline direct injection vehicles will have to introduce Gasoline Particle Filters (GPF) in order to reach the particle limits in real driving tests"

[ingraha3]

Believe we already mentioned it, 502 is not particulate filter compatible. MY19 introduced GPF for the EU market.

"The new rules will apply for all new car models by September 2017 and for all new vehicles by September 2018"
"In practice, all gasoline direct injection vehicles will have to introduce Gasoline Particle Filters (GPF) in order to reach the particle limits in real driving tests"

Got it and makes sense.
Appreciate your knowledge!

[ingraha3]

Hey Smac770,
Since you use Castrol Edge Euro 5W-40, can you share your opinion on any significant difference between that and Castrol Edge Euro 0W-40(Belgium)?
Appreciate it!
👍🏻

[Smac770]

The number with w (or W) is the cold viscosity. I would imagine Belgium would be much colder than where I am and prefer an oil that gets moving quicker in the cold. Both Castrol Edge Euro 0w-40 PA and Castrol Edge Euro 5w-40 A3/B4 are VW 502.00 and ACEA A3/B4 compliant. Castrol appears to have updated the testing, and maybe the composition, of the 5w-40 to add API SP compliance.

5w-40 A3/B4 2020 PDS - https://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/FusionPDS.nsf/Files/BC02228946E6670C802585B300470DFA/$File/WEPP-BRY7K6.pdf
0w-40 AP 2022 PDS - https://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/FusionPDS.nsf/Files/D65408168B7080AA802588EF005B7927/$File/WEPP-CKUUDB.pdf
5w-40 A3/B4 2023 PDF - https://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/FusionPDS.nsf/Files/2C99816232DFEAF08025896B00481315/$File/WEPP-CPPJ66.pdf

How they compare to the 5w-30 A3/B4 and 0w-30 A3/B4, no idea. I don't see a need to run 30, and I don't have a need to run 0w. So they seem similar enough that I don't need to bother considering the minor details. If I were looking for something different, it would be an oil by a different company with a different chemical composition. All the 502 spec Edge Euro are similar enough that you just pick the one of viscosity of interest.

[c99]

Believe we already mentioned it, 502 is not particulate filter compatible. MY19 introduced GPF for the EU market.

"The new rules will apply for all new car models by September 2017 and for all new vehicles by September 2018"
"In practice, all gasoline direct injection vehicles will have to introduce Gasoline Particle Filters (GPF) in order to reach the particle limits in real driving tests"

So because Audi wants to make life easier for services, they changed oil from VW502 to VW504 for all engines, with or without GPF/OPF or for newer engines VW508 which is life killer (lower HTHS), but better fuel economy.

Another reason is low SAPS oils help to get lower exhaust emissions.

But for engine life and wear, VW502 is better (more phosforus, more zinc, more sulfur = more ZDDP, usually higher HTHS). These days emissions are more than engine wear/life, which is sad.

Important is change oil earlier than Audi recommends, I change oil every 5000 miles, because after 4000 miles engine begins to be little bit louder.

There is lot of info about oils, very interesting article is here: https://lnengineering.com/oil.html

[ingraha3]

So because Audi wants to make life easier for services, they changed oil from VW502 to VW504 for all engines, with or without GPF/OPF or for newer engines VW508 which is life killer (lower HTHS), but better fuel economy.

Another reason is low SAPS oils help to get lower exhaust emissions.

But for engine life and wear, VW502 is better (more phosforus, more zinc, more sulfur = more ZDDP, usually higher HTHS). These days emissions are more than engine wear/life, which is sad.

Important is change oil earlier than Audi recommends, I change oil every 5000 miles, because after 4000 miles engine begins to be little bit louder.

There is lot of info about oils, very interesting article is here: https://lnengineering.com/oil.html

Appreciate it. 👊🏼

[Foxunit68]

New here to the Audi world. My 2018 S5 SB Prestige doesn't have the oil recommendation sticker any where in the engine bay or door jambs, do they exist on this model? I live outside of the Houston area with no real winters here, but it does stay warm and humid the majority of the year.

Also, being that I purchased the S5 3rd hand, where would I be able to get one? I suppose I just really need the maintenance schedule and the specs info., I'm at 76K.
Thanks in advance.

[kuroitenpi2]

For some reason the 2018 models audi didn't include the weight, only the oil spec. It's on the fan shroud on a sticker, it will say something like "use only oil with VW xxxxx approval". That code will tell you what weight to use, e.g. 50800 is 0w20.

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[Smac770]

For the 3.0T CWGD engine (B9 S4/S5/SQ5), the oil spec is VW 508.00, for which there is only one viscosity, 0w-20.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...t-test-review/
scroll down to the engine bay pic. You see the gray oil spec sticker, that should be p/n 8E0010560N for an S model.
https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-...er/8e0010560n/

Could be the lock carrier cover was replaced at some point, but they didn't replace the stickers that would have been on it?

[Volvo_Expert]

I think the general consensus is that the oil weight recommendations were changed for fuel economy reasons.

I can confirm this. Volvo switched from 5w30 to 0w20 on all their motors after MY2012 for fuel mileage.

[freshjive]

I can confirm this. Volvo switched from 5w30 to 0w20 on all their motors after MY2012 for fuel mileage.

Is this region specific? Only reason I ask is i made the move from Audi to Volvo as a tech and alot of the early SPA and P3 models i see 5W-30 stickers.

[Volvo_Expert]

Is this region specific? Only reason I ask is i made the move from Audi to Volvo as a tech and alot of the early SPA and P3 models i see 5W-30 stickers.

This was VCNA so I would think it included you. You can look up the TJ yourself in TIE. It was required on every model from 2012 and newer. The TJ tells techs to put a new 0w20 sticker over the 5w30 sticker but we didnt because screw volvo and their warranty times.

When did you start with volvo? I left two years ago as an Expert tech with every single class/certification they had including BEV battery repair and PHEV battery repair.

[freshjive]

This was VCNA so I would think it included you. You can look up the TJ yourself in TIE. It was required on every model from 2012 and newer. The TJ tells techs to put a new 0w20 sticker over the 5w30 sticker but we didnt because screw volvo and their warranty times.

When did you start with volvo? I left two years ago as an Expert tech with every single class/certification they had including BEV battery repair and PHEV battery repair.

I'll have to do some digging for that TJ. I just started at Volvo almost a year ago (6 days to the anniversary). I just went for my 'level 1' hybrid training so i can do everything outside of the battery. Once i go back for the second part of it i can do any repairs inside of the battery. Though there were talks of changing it as a fair amount of people have been hurt from lid off battery repairs.

[Volvo_Expert]

I'll have to do some digging for that TJ. I just started at Volvo almost a year ago (6 days to the anniversary). I just went for my 'level 1' hybrid training so i can do everything outside of the battery. Once i go back for the second part of it i can do any repairs inside of the battery. Though there were talks of changing it as a fair amount of people have been hurt from lid off battery repairs.

Last I heard before leave the dealer is that Volvo no longer lets you open the BEV battery for repairs. It has been centralized to Texas for repairs so you only remove and replace. I spent four days in the damn class for them to change their minds a few months after. My last week at Volvo involved opening of an XC90 PHEV battery to replace a circuit board for the SRS light. There is a tj on that too and sucked. I will never return to the industry,