Timing chain replacement at -3.45 degree cam phase?

[Quattroking101]

2012 Audi A4 at ~113k miles, still on original tensioner and chain. Just used vcds and got a reading of -3.45 degrees. Should I go ahead and replace the timing chain or skip on it for now? Thanks

[Theiceman]

if that's not the latest tensioner revision I would get it done stat. if it is the latest revision your are half way to needing it

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[Quattroking101]

Thanks for the reply. The tensioners job is to hold the chain when it's really stretched, correct? I'm assuming it's survived thus far because it hasn't been stretched that much? Also do you have any good manuals for the job? I've never really worked on engines before lol

[DrGER]

The older tensioner (VAG p/n 06H-109-467-T) is known to fail without warning. You should confirm yours through the inspection port. The updated part (since 2012 or so) is 06K-109-467-K.

You can get all the official Audi service manuals you need (or want) from erwin.audiusa.com ($35 for a 24-hour subscription is a great value, IMO). --g

[Theiceman]

Thanks for the reply. The tensioners job is to hold the chain when it's really stretched, correct? I'm assuming it's survived thus far because it hasn't been stretched that much? Also do you have any good manuals for the job? I've never really worked on engines before lol

no this is not correct....
the tensioners job is to hold the chain under tension when the engine is off and there is no oil pressure.. new or old chain...even a new chain needs this. as mentioned the tensioner can fail at any time and even be already failed and you are just lucky oil pressure builds fast enough to not notice, but once that chain jumps, it is rarely recoverable without serious engine work
it can be checked very easily through an inspection port. have that done asap and get pics

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[Quattroking101]

The older tensioner (VAG p/n 06H-109-467-T) is known to fail without warning. You should confirm yours through the inspection port. The updated part (since 2012 or so) is 06K-109-467-K.

You can get all the official Audi service manuals you need (or want) from erwin.audiusa.com ($35 for a 24-hour subscription is a great value, IMO). --g

Thanks! My car was built in June 2011 so I doubt I have the latest revision

[Quattroking101]

no this is not correct....
the tensioners job is to hold the chain under tension when the engine is off and there is no oil pressure.. new or old chain...even a new chain needs this. as mentioned the tensioner can fail at any time and even be already failed and you are just lucky oil pressure builds fast enough to not notice, but once that chain jumps, it is rarely recoverable without serious engine work
it can be checked very easily through an inspection port. have that done asap and get pics

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Thanks again for your insight. I bought a full timing chain kit from fcp euro (link is below). Getting the balance shaft chain and its guides + tensioner is gonna be a challenge since fcp euro didn't really show that part in their video. Almost every mechanic around my area wants $3000-4000 for parts and labor. Looks like I got a big job on my hands.


https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/aud...-06k109158adkt

[Quattroking101]

Also just another question is if the cam phase degree matters if it's on the original tensioner, since I see this number come up a lot when people discuss replacing timing chains on b8 a4s

[Theiceman]

they are different issues .... but related..

the first 2 tensioner designs can fail due to their poor design that's why you should get the newest one regardless of cam phase.

The cam phase is a measure of stretch of the actual chain , anything above 5-6 and you should be scheduling a chain replacement.

They are related because obviously the more stretched the chain is the more extended the tensioner is and the higher risk.. the new tensioner is pretty good though . i was at 8.5 phase on the last notch of the tensioner and the car still ran fine... but i did feel like i was sprinting through a mine field though lol.

[mrg_B8TFSi]

Yep everything that the replies have been discussing about the tensioner on the 2009-11 design is correct it was known as the “ticking time bomb” basically from the original design it only had about 3 back cut teeth to hold the chain position when there was no oil pressure. Yeah both tensioners are fine when the oil pressure is there since the tensioner plunger is hydraulically driven against the tensioner guide. It’s when on a cold start where that original tensioner can fail to keep tension on the chain and that slip of a couple teeth usually results in valves colliding. So, we recommend to pull the inspection plug and see your tensioner with a flashlight and mirror.. the humble mechanic on YouTube has a video on this. At -3.45° your about 50% stretch of the chain. But like mentioned you should be on the newest revision of the tensioner.. you need to find out if you are. BTW there is tons of information on this app to guys that have done a complete timing upgrade on our B8 CAEB motors or similar motors all the B8’s are basically all the same timing components.. but it is a rather expensive job and it’s a complex job requiring some mechanical expertise.. if you are not in perfect TDC or miss your measurements you can do engine damage. First find out what tensioner you currently have.


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[Quattroking101]

Yep everything that the replies have been discussing about the tensioner on the 2009-11 design is correct it was known as the “ticking time bomb” basically from the original design it only had about 3 back cut teeth to hold the chain position when there was no oil pressure. Yeah both tensioners are fine when the oil pressure is there since the tensioner plunger is hydraulically driven against the tensioner guide. It’s when on a cold start where that original tensioner can fail to keep tension on the chain and that slip of a couple teeth usually results in valves colliding. So, we recommend to pull the inspection plug and see your tensioner with a flashlight and mirror.. the humble mechanic on YouTube has a video on this. At -3.45° your about 50% stretch of the chain. But like mentioned you should be on the newest revision of the tensioner.. you need to find out if you are. BTW there is tons of information on this app to guys that have done a complete timing upgrade on our B8 CAEB motors or similar motors all the B8’s are basically all the same timing components.. but it is a rather expensive job and it’s a complex job requiring some mechanical expertise.. if you are not in perfect TDC or miss your measurements you can do engine damage. First find out what tensioner you currently have.


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Really appreciate the insight from you guys. I've called half a dozen mechanics that have experience with Audis and other german cars and they all said I shouldn't worry about it if I don't see a check engine light or experience any dramatic performance issues. Obviously each time I try to explain how the old style tensioners can go out the door any minute they get confused or dismiss it. They seem to all wanna fix it only when the chain has skipped enough to bend the valves. Anyways I will inspect the tensioner physically and report back what I see.


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[Theiceman]

Really appreciate the insight from you guys. I've called half a dozen mechanics that have experience with Audis and other german cars and they all said I shouldn't worry about it if I don't see a check engine light or experience any dramatic performance issues. Obviously each time I try to explain how the old style tensioners can go out the door any minute they get confused or dismiss it. They seem to all wanna fix it only when the chain has skipped enough to bend the valves. Anyways I will inspect the tensioner physically and report back what I see.


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that's a great start.

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[MyDimeIsUp]

Yeah def find out what tensioner is installed on the car, though I would say the old-style (Pre-2012) unless the car was previously taken to Audi because of the class action lawsuit settlement. Also that FCPEuro list gets you most of the way, but you don't need EVERYTHING on that list. The cam bridge you don't really need to replace, just remove the clogged oil screen that breaks off and gets stuck in the head of the engine. Also the lower timing cover, a simple piece of stamped steel, accounts for $125 of the cost. I got an unused brand-new Audi-stamped one from eBay for $25 so shop around on eBay or aftermarket companies that are reputable. All in with the OEM parts (new guides and chains for crank AND balance shaft, gaskets, bolts, etc.) and timing tools, I spent around $700. I didn't replace my tensioner since I had a B8.5 with the updated tensioner, and I haven't heard of any of the new style tensioners failing. I also didn't need to refill coolant or evacuate/recharge my A/C since you can just put the front end into service position rather than removing the entire front radiator core support.

I can drop my parts list here if you'd like, though there may be some VERY slight difference between your CAEB engine and my CPMA.

[Quattroking101]

that's a great start.

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Check this morning, got the old style tensioner but it doesn't seem very stretched. Heres the pic, I got a lot more if you want. Should I still get it replaced?


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[DrGER]

Yes: see my post, above. A colleague from a previous job related the story of her destroyed '09 A4Q engine due to failure of this chain tensioner. We had ours replaced not long after that conversion (back in Sep '16). --g

[Theiceman]

oh yeah I'd be getting that thing out of there asap.... the severity is very high if that thing fails.

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[Quattroking101]

oh yeah I'd be getting that thing out of there asap.... the severity is very high if that thing fails.

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Gotcha, any takeaways from the picture or cam phase degree? Does the tensioner seem stretched? Could I wait a little longer before I replace it?


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[Quattroking101]

Yes: see my post, above. A colleague from a previous job related the story of her destroyed '09 A4Q engine due to failure of this chain tensioner. We had ours replaced not long after that conversion (back in Sep '16). --g

From my understanding, the tensioner fails when it gets stretched beyond a certain point. How likely is failure? Almost every mechanic in my area is telling me that it doesn't need to be replaced


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[old guy]

From my understanding, the tensioner fails when it gets stretched beyond a certain point. How likely is failure? Almost every mechanic in my area is telling me that it doesn't need to be replaced

The situation is/was not good, I don't care what your mechanics are telling you. It was bad enough for THIS to occur.

[Theiceman]

Gotcha, any takeaways from the picture or cam phase degree? Does the tensioner seem stretched? Could I wait a little longer before I replace it?


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im not sure you are listening .. you are sitting on a grenade lol.

[Theiceman]

From my understanding, the tensioner fails when it gets stretched beyond a certain point. How likely is failure? Almost every mechanic in my area is telling me that it doesn't need to be replaced


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its your car ... go with what your mechanics say if you are comfortable with it.

[Quattroking101]

im not sure you are listening .. you are sitting on a grenade lol.

I'll get it done next week :)


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[Quattroking101]

its your car ... go with what your mechanics say if you are comfortable with it.

Is it a good idea to also get the pcv valve replaced at the same time? Heard those can go bad


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[DrGER]

Is it a good idea to also get the pcv valve replaced at the same time? Heard those can go bad

Replacing the PCV is DIY, IMO. Just make sure you replace with the correct spec, since two versions of these will fit the 2.0T petrol engine. If the current PCV has the black top:

look for 06H-103-495-AH (OE is Hengst).
Otherwise, the white top:

p/n 06H-103-495-AK. --g

[Theiceman]

yeah PCV is just good pm.

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[mrg_B8TFSi]

Agree I think this thread is clearly saying that the old style tensioner (which stemmed the CAL) was a bad design and there are no warning signs to know when that clasp can fail on a cold start up.. yeah even if you show a cam adaptation value of -3.0 which means your in the safe range (I’m just using an arbitrary value of -3.0 because based on how much your plunger is exposed I’d say that’s the area of the adaptation) nevertheless you are prone to fail without warning.. the advice is at minimum to swap out that tensioner to the upgrade version.. and it’s up to you to decide what else to replace, but with the removal of the lower case it’s the time to upgrade everything if you plan on keeping the car. The local mechanics telling you to wait for CEL are very uninformed on this random bomb in your engine.. with and interference motor which all these TFSi are your looking at major expenses.. I don’t have to tell you a preemptive decision now may save you thousands later.. but yeah interesting your running old tensioner maybe one of the last ones? That being said, at bare minimum I’d replace that tensioner and the chain it’s old style links..


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[Quattroking101]

Agree I think this thread is clearly saying that the old style tensioner (which stemmed the CAL) was a bad design and there are no warning signs to know when that clasp can fail on a cold start up.. yeah even if you show a cam adaptation value of -3.0 which means your in the safe range (I’m just using an arbitrary value of -3.0 because based on how much your plunger is exposed I’d say that’s the area of the adaptation) nevertheless you are prone to fail without warning.. the advice is at minimum to swap out that tensioner to the upgrade version.. and it’s up to you to decide what else to replace, but with the removal of the lower case it’s the time to upgrade everything if you plan on keeping the car. The local mechanics telling you to wait for CEL are very uninformed on this random bomb in your engine.. with and interference motor which all these TFSi are your looking at major expenses.. I don’t have to tell you a preemptive decision now may save you thousands later.. but yeah interesting your running old tensioner maybe one of the last ones? That being said, at bare minimum I’d replace that tensioner and the chain it’s old style links..


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I went to a knowledgeable VW Audi mechanic and he was the first to tell me that it should be replaced. I dropped off the car this morning and it's going to lighten my wallet $2500. Oh well.


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[Spike00513]

I dropped off the car this morning and it's going to lighten my wallet $2500. Oh well.

[Theiceman]

that's spendy ... but i am sure it will include all new chains guides for timing and balance shaft...

and at the end of the day ... cheaper than a new car ..

make sure you get a detailed work order and please share what parts are replaced.

[Quattroking101]

that's spendy ... but i am sure it will include all new chains guides for timing and balance shaft...

and at the end of the day ... cheaper than a new car ..

make sure you get a detailed work order and please share what parts are replaced.

No balance shaft, cam bridge, or anything like that. It's basically the cam chain, tensioner, its 3 guides, upper timing gasket, and lower timing cover. The labor is $1200 and the parts and tax came out to another $1200 or so. I wanted to give them my own timing cover since Audi's is almost $400 but then it would've voided the warranty.


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[Theiceman]

No balance shaft, cam bridge, or anything like that. It's basically the cam chain, tensioner, its 3 guides, upper timing gasket, and lower timing cover. The labor is $1200 and the parts and tax came out to another $1200 or so. I wanted to give them my own timing cover since Audi's is almost $400 but then it would've voided the warranty.


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wow , i would have thought for that they would replace the BS chain since it is literally right there...

oh well... i know prices are up everywhere these days.

[Quattroking101]

wow , i would have thought for that they would replace the BS chain since it is literally right there...

oh well... i know prices are up everywhere these days.

That was the cheapest shop too, I have every other shop in the bay area in california give me a quote. Here are all the shops and the quotes they gave me:


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[Quattroking101]

With this job, $7000 of repairs/maintenance has been spent on this stupid car in the last 12 months. And it still burns oil


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[Theiceman]

With this job, $7000 of repairs/maintenance has been spent on this stupid car in the last 12 months. And it still burns oil


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oh crap , that isnt good,, motor is beat. rings ..

[Theiceman]

That was the cheapest shop too, I have every other shop in the bay area in california give me a quote. Here are all the shops and the quotes they gave me:


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thats some good research ,,, you should post that in our timing chain thread .. people are always asking what this job would cost

[DrGER]

With this job, $7000 of repairs/maintenance has been spent on this stupid car in the last 12 months. And it still burns oil

I hear what you're saying -- we have $5K+ in TDI emissions work in our '11 Golf Variant (aka SportWagen) 6MT wagon since the dieselgate warranty expired in early '22. On the plus side, VWoA put another $8K+ in corrosion warranty repairs earlier this year, so we're still ahead (for now). Too bad a previous owner wasn't able to get new pistons/rings before AoA stopped repairing this under warranty/goodwill/class action. --g

[mrg_B8TFSi]

Ahhh now I see these are 415 area code prices.. make sense now..


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[Quattroking101]

I hear what you're saying -- we have $5K+ in TDI emissions work in our '11 Golf Variant (aka SportWagen) 6MT wagon since the dieselgate warranty expired in early '22. On the plus side, VWoA put another $8K+ in corrosion warranty repairs earlier this year, so we're still ahead (for now). Too bad a previous owner wasn't able to get new pistons/rings before AoA stopped repairing this under warranty/goodwill/class action. --g

They did a complimentary inspection and they said my front control arm bushings are torn. They posted pics too, and want $1800 to fix. Thoughts?




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[Quattroking101]

thats some good research ,,, you should post that in our timing chain thread .. people are always asking what this job would cost

Can you link the thread? Will do


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[audrobotic]

They did a complimentary inspection and they said my front control arm bushings are torn. They posted pics too, and want $1800 to fix. Thoughts?

I wouldn't worry about these bushings unless you notice issues (uneven tire wear, clunking, etc) or you see some major issues with deterioration. An inspection about a year ago on my 2013, some cracking noticeable, mechanic noted as 3/10 in terms of need to address.