Engine is Out!!! What next? - B8.5 2.0T Engine Upgrade/Rebuild

[SNice]

2014 Audi A4 B8.5 CPMB Flex Fuel Engine 2.0TFSI

Welp - I finally did it… I pulled the engine. What’s next?
- Inspection & teardown
- Replace what needs replacin’
- Fix what needs fixing’
- leave what can be left!
- Install upgraded Pistons & Rods & Rings
- Fit EFR 6758 turbo
- Timjng chain (been putting this off for years - almost at -6.5 camshaft adaptation)
- Paint block - got some rust I’d like to deal with.

The above is my short list. It may grow as I get into the project. This will be more of an account of what I am doing and how I have done it. I probably won’t go too much into detail as I am really doing nothing new. Others have definitely blazed the trail here. I’m picking the best route as I see fit based on those that have done this before.

More to come. But I will start with a picture of the engine out and clear from the car!!!
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This was a major victory for me! Let’s Gooo!!! Nothing broken. Came out clean. Off to a good start!


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[SNice]

…engine pic before I started. For reference.
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[Theiceman]

i guess the real question is why did you take it out ... ?
are you trying to repair something like oil consumption ? in that case its a tear down and rebuild with new pistons and rings, you wont need rods as you have a later car.
Then just all the stuff that goes with it ( see my 8.5 engine refresh thread. that covers what i did )

If you took it apart to upgrade it then really the sky is the limit and you are only limited by imagination and budget. This is not my area of expertise so i will leave that part to others.

The only thing i wished i had done when i took it apart was pay closer attention to the turbo as after my rebuild i pop a 299 every 3 months or so.

[JLAllroad]

i guess the real question is why did you take it out ... ?
are you trying to repair something like oil consumption ? in that case its a tear down and rebuild with new pistons and rings, you wont need rods as you have a later car.
Then just all the stuff that goes with it ( see my 8.5 engine refresh thread.

If you took it apart to upgrade it then really the sky is the limit and you are only limited by imagination and budget. This is not my area of expertise so i will leave that part to others.

The only thing i wished i had done when i took it apart was pay closer attention to the turbo as after my rebuild i pop a 299 every 3 months or so.

For [mention]SNice [/mention] if you’re not digging into the head, look at carbon cleaning the intake/valves, I’m guessing you already have new injectors for your turbo, the main water pump and belt will be easier, RMS and motor mounts.

For[mention]Theiceman [/mention] just tweak the wastegate actuator bracket 3-5mm towards the front of the car, adds some preload and removes a bit of the slop. If you want to be a bit more technical, you can slide the cat off so you can feel the wastegate flapper while adjusting.


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[SNice]

i guess the real question is why did you take it out ... ?
are you trying to repair something like oil consumption ? in that case its a tear down and rebuild with new pistons and rings, you wont need rods as you have a later car.
Then just all the stuff that goes with it ( see my 8.5 engine refresh thread.

If you took it apart to upgrade it then really the sky is the limit and you are only limited by imagination and budget. This is not my area of expertise so i will leave that part to others.

The only thing i wished i had done when i took it apart was pay closer attention to the turbo as after my rebuild i pop a 299 every 3 months or so.

Engine is running great. Oil consumption has gone down to near zero. At its worst, I was adding a 1/2 quart every 600-1kmiles based on how hard I was driving it. Now my oil reader stays at the top with no change between oil changes.

I think my consumption improvement is due to the dual catch cans, e85 every once in a while, and the port meth injection.

Ever since installing the catch cans (and keeping the stock pcv) my charge pipes and turbo inlet have been free of oil. I no longer have a puddle of oil in my intercooler!

I think the e85 and port meth are helping to keep things clean and prevent further buildup. It may have even broken some deposits down.

I was trying to avoid opening up the head but my curiosity may get the best of me! When I installed the port meth, I did take a look at the valves and they definitely had a good amount of buildup on them. It would be interesting to see how they look now.

The main reason I pulled it was to upgrade the rods and pistons. While it’s out, I also plan to do the timing chains as I’ve been sitting on those parts for almost 3 years!

The lower timing cover is rusty along the bottom and it looks like there is some bubbly oil seepage coming from somewhere along the seam. It also looks like the lower oil separator is a bit moist.

And yes! I have read your thread several times! It convinced me to leave the harness in the car (which I did). Also a great resource because you are also healing with a b8.5!


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[SNice]

For [mention]SNice [/mention] if you’re not digging into the head, look at carbon cleaning the intake/valves, I’m guessing you already have new injectors for your turbo, the main water pump and belt will be easier, RMS and motor mounts.

For[mention]Theiceman [/mention] just tweak the wastegate actuator bracket 3-5mm towards the front of the car, adds some preload and removes a bit of the slop. If you want to be a bit more technical, you can slide the cat off so you can feel the wastegate flapper while adjusting.


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Unless I find a leak, I will probably hold off on opening the head until next round. I do plan on eventually upgrading the head. I will have ARP studs after this so removal later will not be an issue.

Still running stock injectors! Need to look into that and if/how I can utilize my port meth setup for additional fueling when needed.

Water pump is still relatively new - I replaced it about 20k miles ago. I’ll probably pull it off, inspect, replace all gaskets and put it back on.

RMS - definitely will upgrade that
Motor mounts - mine are still relatively new - I changed them not too long ago.


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[Theiceman]

I was shocked how my engine mounts were completely coroded and falling apart .

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[SNice]

Slowly but steadily making progress…
Initial inspection of the engine showed that my only oil leak was coming from the top of the oil filter/acc bracket. There was a small breach in the gasket that was allowing a slow, drip. Lots of caked up oil residue along the path. IMG_0847.jpg

Lower timing cover and crank pulley both had rust and will need to be replaced. I will replace the crank damper with a fluidamper.
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I originally intended on removing the head fully assembled. All was going great until I got a piece of tape stuck in the head while trying to remove the head bolts. The tape was holding an extended socket together. I couldn’t grab it and decided it wasn’t worth the risk. So I proceeded to take the necessary steps to pull off the valve cover. So… while removing the fuel assembly(hpfp, fuel lines, etc) - guess what I found?
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Do you see it??!!! A piece of a screen!
Turned out it was from the cam bridge!

I do have a new cam bridge. I was on the fence about removing the screen on the new one - but now I most likely will!

Also take note of my tensioner position. Definitely time to do the timing chain!
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[Allowencer]

I dont see the piece of the screen, unless you're referring to the screen in the vacuum pump? If so, that is supposed to be there.

Great progress btw! Very odd and unusual the gasket for the engine accessory bracket caused a leak.

For sure get a new front cover. Seems like a lot of water and salt even got there over time?

I would highly recommend to take the head apart. Get it cleaned, inspected, and checked for flatness. If you're going to go this far and not take the extra steps for the cylinder head, you're doing yourself a disservice.

Edit: I DO see the piece of the screen now! Haha. Just to the left of what I said is supposed to be there. Wow.

I dont run a screen in my cam bridge anymore. Haven't for 4 or 5 years now.

[Theiceman]

if you had posted links to imgur or something the pics would have been bigger for us to see, but yeah looks due for servicing of this nature and you may need quite a few new parts. :)

[old guy]

[Theiceman]

oh there she is...

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[silver_tt]

So… while removing the fuel assembly(hpfp, fuel lines, etc) - guess what I found?

Awesome job, really great work. For the cam bridge screen looks like you found it in the vacuum pump, which makes sense

[mc_hotmail]

@SNice I took an '09 engine out 7/23, a few days before you. Did you do it with the ECM off the car? I did the opposite -- wire harness off, ECM untouched.

As for the damages I observed, the screen on the top was from last year in a 2010 engine with 170k miles, in perfect condition. The screen below it was from this '09 engine with only 98k miles, totally punched through.



One intake roller detached from its retaining clip, because both clip edges that folded back onto the roller snapped, very unusual damage:



I asked about spring in this thread: B8 exhaust cam ball and spring

[SNice]

I left the ECM and the main harness in the car too. In fact, the rest of the car still has power as I did not unplug the battery. I removed the power cables from the positive terminal tray. The cables provide power to the alternator and starter among other things. That “lower harness” came out with the engine.

I also did not have to go into service position to get the engine out. This would not have been possible without a load leveler on my engine crane. I also had to jack up the transmission a bit to get it to clear.

I did remove the alternator and the A/C pump. I hung the pump to the side and was able to lift the engine out pretty easily! I just hope I can get it back in the way it came out!

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[Allowencer]

You must have an auto trans. No way that would of come out easy with a MT due to the input shaft and needle bearing. Something would have been damaged.

Taking off the front clip on these cars is so well worth the effort and less strain on your back and arms. Worth the < 2 hours it takes to do.

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[SNice]

You must have an auto trans. No way that would of come out easy with a MT due to the input shaft and needle bearing. Something would have been damaged.

Taking off the front clip on these cars is so well worth the effort and less strain on your back and arms. Worth the < 2 hours it takes to do.

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You are correct! She’s an auto!!! And honestly - I did it the way I did it just to see if it could be done. If I started to get hung up on the front, I was ready to put it into service position at minimum. Surprisingly - it never did! The actual pulling of the engine was the easy part. It took about 10mins to get it out and clear of the front clip. 5 of those minutes was spent placing a jack under the tranny to help get the exit angles right.

I spent way more time making sure everything was unhooked and free and double checking to make sure I didn’t miss anything. One thing that ate up a lot of time was trying to figure out what to do with the starter. It seemed like it would have been very challenging to try and unplug the plug and get the power cord off. I was able to get the plug off from under the car - that power cord was not reachable easily. It seemed like I would have needed to remove the engine mount bracket for access. So… I ended up pulling that lower power harness with the engine.

Another fear of mine was that I was not going to be able to clear the front of the car and hood with the hoist I had. Even though the front of the car was jacked up, I was still able to lift the engine above the front clip with my little 1 ton harbor freight engine hoist! The hoist’s hydraulic ram was about 1/2in away from my front bumper lip so I had to be very careful - but it all worked out!IMG_0811.jpg


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[AOW162435]

Impressive! I always thought the entire front needed to come off.


Andreas

[mc_hotmail]

1/2in away from my front bumper lip so I had to be very careful - but it all worked out!

@SNice That's because you were able to get to all 4 cat-to-turbo nuts. My bolts have an extra long head: the nuts require a deep socket, but the cat blocks the extension to my 12mm deep socket. May be you have a curve box head wrench, I don't. I have to take the engine out with the cat attached, so have to move or remove the core support.

Before the turbo goes back in, I gonna cut off those extra length so that I can use my shallow 12mm socket and a wobble join:

[Allowencer]

@SNice That's because you were able to get to all 4 cat-to-turbo nuts. My bolts have an extra long head: the nuts require a deep socket, but the cat blocks the extension to my 12mm deep socket. May be you have a curve box head wrench, I don't. I have to take the engine out with the cat attached, so have to move or remove the core support.

Before the turbo goes back in, I gonna cut off those extra length so that I can use my shallow 12mm socket and a wobble join:

Easier fix, swap out the studs on the turbo. I'd recommend it anyways for the next time you have to unbolt it. You know there will be a next time

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[SNice]

@SNice That's because you were able to get to all 4 cat-to-turbo nuts. My bolts have an extra long head: the nuts require a deep socket, but the cat blocks the extension to my 12mm deep socket. May be you have a curve box head wrench, I don't. I have to take the engine out with the cat attached, so have to move or remove the core support.

Before the turbo goes back in, I gonna cut off those extra length so that I can use my shallow 12mm socket and a wobble join:

Ahh. Yeah full disclosure - both my turbo and cat are aftermarket! The turbo has shorter studs and the HFC provides much better access. But when I unbolt the cat from the transmission spring mount, I have a lot of play - enough to push it back and off the turbo… you could remove the turbo too!


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[SNice]

…so got the bottom end stripped, cleaned, and painted - added 10HP easy! Lol. Just kidding.
I was torn between red or blue - I already have a lot of red accents on the car. Decided to add some contrast. Also my paint is moonlight metallic blue….so the decision was made. Another reason for the paint was to better identify future leaks. The black made origins or any moisture hard to detect.

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Also got ahead of myself and didn’t read Allowencer’s warning regarding the intermediate sprocket. I removed it.

Very expensive to replace. The aftermarket ones are so cheap that there has to be a difference. I think I would prefer to reuse the old one over taking a chance on one of the sub $50 versions. Maybe the backlash wear-away coating increases the cost?

I will look into it more. But right now I’m leaning toward just reusing the old one…we shall see.


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[Allowencer]

The backlash is a big thing. Too much backlash, the gear will wear down, cause noise, and eat at the gear.

Technically, you could take the current one, have it stripped down and re-coated if you can find the correct coating for it. Prolly be pretty cheap. I didn't care to figure it out.

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[schwiz23]

Looks good so far! Thanks for documenting and sharing.

[SNice]

The backlash is a big thing. Too much backlash, the gear will wear down, cause noise, and eat at the gear.

Technically, you could take the current one, have it stripped down and re-coated if you can find the correct coating for it. Prolly be pretty cheap. I didn't care to figure it out.

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Yeah… after doing research and seeing horror stories and pics of issues - I’m going to replace it. There are several notes about it in the Audi documentation too. Not worth the risk. I should not have removed it in the first place! I took it off because I thought I would be removing balance shafts. I also took off the little reverse threaded water pulley bolt - that will need to be replaced as well!


Also found this video which really helped me to better understand the oil system.

https://youtu.be/NJp85pRqrm8

So based on my current findings, I will:
-Leave the balance shafts. They spin freely with no hang ups. No leaks, out of spec play, or grinding.
-Replace intermediate sprocket
-Pull screen out of my new cam bracket


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[SNice]

I cleaned all mating surfaces. Removed the pistons/rods. Checked crank for play, and measured bores for roundness.

Everything was clean and well within spec. I’m very happy with how clean everything is looking. It’s almost a shame I am tearing this engine apart! It (was) in great shape! My findings are making me want to leave as much alone as possible. I will not remove the crank. I will also just be dropping my new rods and pistons and rings into the bores as is. I will not do any honing. I know this may be a controversial choice but I won’t be afraid to get back into the engine in the future if need be!

I don’t think the carbon in my rings is enough to cause problems. Most of the holes in the rings are unobstructed. My car is currently NOT an oil burner. However, it used to be! I was up to 1/2 quart every 500miles. Then I started running it hard with a tank of e85 every once in a while. Then I installed my dual catch can system with stock PCV… and then I added port injected meth.

My theory is that the catch cans have removed most of the oil getting into my intake and the meth has been helping to prevent and break down some existing carbon. Whatever it is - it is working!
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[Allowencer]

If you removed the main caps already, do replace the bolts. Also, since you've already cracked them, check runout on each main. That will give you an idea on the straightness of the mainline.

I would highly recommend checking bore measurements just to be sure there isn't excessive wear. In addition, this will double check piston to bore clearance.

I would replace rings at least and size the gap appropriately to your application (i.e. what turbo and how much boost/cylinder pressure you want to run). Much easier to do that now then later.

For rods, get new bolts. Also, be 120% sure what rod cap goes to what rod and to what orientation. They are cracked rods and MUST match.

As long as there isn't excessive wear on the bores and there's visible cross-hatching, you'll be fine with them and new rings.

If I was in your shoes, I would have removed the balance shafts anyways to check them. Too many times these have taken out engines.

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[Allowencer]

I forgot to add, some Dino oil and a scotch Brite pad can do wonders to get rid of carbon and clean up pistons, rods, and even cylinder bores. Once cleaned, rinse off with brake clean and then lightly apply a coat of oil. NOT assembly lube.

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[SNice]

…and so my backyard build continues! Lol
Clearly I am not doing this in ideal conditions but I’m working with the facilities I have ( a driveway and a back yard).

I’m doing everything to keep the cleanest environment possible. Honestly, right now -
Dog hair is my biggest concern! Lol. I clean parts, bag them up, and store them for final assembly.

Because I am taking so long - I decided to pull the crank. This allowed me to properly check and clean the crank and squirters.

I’m measuring everything as I go and so far everything is falling within spec. Main bearings looked good and were not all the same so a bit of a headache (and worry) to replace. The lower bearings were easy to identify as the crank was marked. I could not find a marking on the block for the upper bearings. The bearings had to be pulled to see the color markings and read the part numbers.

I opened up the head and found a lot more carbon than I expected. I’ve decided to just replace/upgrade the valves, seals, and keepers. I will save the springs for a later date. After pulling the injectors, I have also decided to just replace them rather than attempt to clean. The new Bosch injectors will be fresh with seals and I’m sticking with the stock b8.5 flex ones so it’s easier to just replace them rather than spend the time and worry about them.



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[SNice]

I ended up ordering the new intermediate sprocket after I removed my original one (discussed earlier in thread).

It was for peace of mind. I ended up ordering the OE Audi version. I was a bit hesitant to order one of the aftermarket versions after learning about the backlash coating. The Audi version definitely has some sort of grey coating that wears away to set the proper backlash. I’d be very curious to know if the aftermarket versions (which are A LOT cheaper) have the coating. I guess I’ll just looking for some justification for the Audi markup!
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[JLAllroad]

Aren’t you going BT? EFR? Just wondering due to your injector choice.


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[SNice]

Aren’t you going BT? EFR? Just wondering due to your injector choice.


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Yes! I just don’t know the actual fueling requirements yet. I looked at other’s builds and have an idea but I definitely need to do some more research. I also don’t have a new tune yet so I’d rather be on the road sooner than later. From my understanding, fueling upgrades would require a new tune.

So I will take advantage of the engine being out to get the final fit on the EFR 6758. But I’ll put the K04 back on before I put the engine back in the car.

Other things I have to consider with the fueling are that I’m a flex fuel car and that I have port injected meth.

…so in the interest of time and getting the car back on the road - I will be running the stock fuel system. This will also help me to confirm all is well before adding the stress of a bigger turbo!

This was originally just supposed to be rods, pistons, and timing… the job has snowballed into a lot more!


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[Allowencer]

For the cylinder walls and bearings, you must keep it very clean. A hair can interfere with tolerances; could also affect proper ring bedding into the cylinder wall.

There are 2 locations where the bearing markings are on the block. One is on the back of the block, above the rear main seal area. The other is on the mating surface of the block for the upper oil pan/girdle tray.

Get the new, updated, oil squirters. I did for my build. Better spring and ball bearing design.

As for injectors, send your old ones out to get cleaned and balanced. It will save you a few bucks and you will know for sure the flow rates and how balanced they all are.

As for the intermediate sprocket, I'll bet Calico could recoat a non damaged sprocket. I didn't dig into it during my build, but quite confident it isn't anything too crazy. The coating starts to come off once the balance shafts are assembled and you start to spin the assembly (expected).

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[Allowencer]

A note on the recluctor wheel, IF those bolts are even touched (loosened), all 3 bolts and the reluctor wheel MUST be replaced. None of it can be reused. The countersunk holes for the reluctor wheel flatten out to ensure a proper mating surface between the crank and reluctor. I might have an extra reluctor if you need one.

If you are taking the crank in to get a balance (highly recommend if you're going with different pistons, wrist pins, and rods) and want to achieve a complete neutral balance, that reluctor will have to come off and you'll be in this position.

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[Allowencer]

As for fueling, you gotta start with are you going to run E85 or RON. If RON, are you going to mix like VP fuel or a "good" octane booster/adder? Or even mix with E85?

It all starts there. You can only go so much with DIs. If you need more, then you'll need to get a secondary fuel controller, IEs intake manifold with injector bungs, and you run a 2nd set of [normal] injectors.

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[SNice]

This weekend - made a lot of headway (literally).
…been procrastinating on gaping the rings so I dove into the head.

My original plan was to just clean it up - do the standard carbon clean, and put it back on.

I thought my valves would be pretty clean due to my use of water methanol. I don’t think they were that bad, but they were worse than expected. I am also no longer under the illusion that meth prevents carbon buildup… but that is for another thread!

As I go through this process, I keep remembering that my car is almost a decade old and has over 120k miles on it! The original parts on my car have done their job so I am definitely doing more replacing than cleaning at this point.

That being said, I disassembled the head, and am installing ferrea valves & springs with ie seals. Gonna keep the stock guides. I did the “wobble” test via the manual and they are all still well within spec. Test was done with the new ferrea valves.

All head parts have been cleaned and are awaiting installation once the springs arrive.
Pictures are of the dirty parts :)

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This oil return valve lives on the bottom of the head and was blown out! Will be replaced!
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I have also started to gather items for final assembly. While checking parts diagrams, I realized I was missing a rubber washer seal that goes on the bottom of the oil baffle. Once I have that, the upper and lower oil pan assemblies will be good to go!
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[SNice]

Today I yanked the balance shafts. At first I wasn’t going to. I’ve gone this far and figured I might as well “clear” the block. This would just give me piece of mind - I was curious about the condition of the screens and I was worried about the plastic piece being brittle. Also - pulling the balance shafts would allow me to really clean the block.

In preparation, I ordered new balance shafts and a new seal for the intake side. I also found the puller tool on eBay for $30. (I thought it was a great deal for the “right tool” at the time).

The tool turned out to be a waste of money. The shafts wouldn’t budge. In fact - it started to pull the gear off. I ended up popping the freeze plugs and knocking out both balance shafts from the back with an extension socket. They came out pretty quickly. So now all I need to find is new freeze plugs.

The tool seems like it could be useful if the engine is still installed. If you have access to the back of the engine - just pop the freeze plugs and knock’em out. It will save you a lot of time.

Upon inspection, the balance shafts looked great. All screens were in tact. The plastic cover was still pliable. It would seem that I could have left them alone. The only thing that definitely needed to be replaced was the seal on the intake side. It was dry rotted and stuck. It had to be punched out from the front with a long rod. I don’t know if it would be possible to replace this with the shaft still installed.

I have a few more clearances to measure, and then a lot of cleaning to do. Can’t wait to get this thing back together!

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[Theiceman]

well on your way... did you get Audi BS or aftermarket ?

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[SNice]

well on your way... did you get Audi BS or aftermarket ?

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I got the Audi balance shafts. I did look for aftermarket options but couldn’t trust that the ones I found were OE.

I think the reason they are replace if removed is because they need to be beaten out. A couple smacks of the hammer definitely shifted the position of the gear.

I don’t want to “hammer” the new ones back in. I will definitely put them in the freezer to shrink prior to installation. Hopefully that will allow me to install them by hand.


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[Allowencer]

How are the bearings on the balance shafts? Sloppy at all? Smooth spinning?

Any end play within the housings?