Cam Position Sensor Bank 2

[calebtbay]

I just did the timing. Ultimate kit. B6 S4.

I was getting 1 code for P0346 implausible signal. VCDS measuring blocks seem to indicate no signal from bank 2 cam sensor.

Both cam sensors have about 6 megohms of resistance and both connectors get 5+ volts with key on.

I swapped the bank 1 and bank 2 sensors. Bank 1 still no problem so its not the sensor. The code changed from P0346 Implausible to P1392 Open Short to plus, bank 2.

Any Ideas? Is my timing off?

[Rol-co]

Just something that came up my mind.

You did the measurements with the negative at the connector or at the battery? These sensors run directly to the ecu i think, maybe check connector ecu, beep the wires if they are o.k.

[calebtbay]

Just something that came up my mind.

You did the measurements with the negative at the connector or at the battery? These sensors run directly to the ecu i think, maybe check connector ecu, beep the wires if they are o.k.

I have a bout got the engine back out

[Rol-co]

I have a bout got the engine back out

Why? If timing was incorrect it trows correlation code's, not implausible signal.

[calebtbay]

Why? If timing was incorrect it trows correlation code's, not implausible signal.

I searched the forum. Its hard to find this code in relation to B6 S4 but almost every time its someone who’s timing has failed or its right after they did the timing and suggestions are always timing is off a tooth. None of them come back to the forum and say what the problem was.

I checked all the grounds and connectors. I swapped the sensor and the code didn’t follow. Its happy with both sensors on bank 1 and has a problem with either sensor on bank 2.

I got the engine all the way back out in less than a day. Im getting pretty good at it. My crank has three different places for the crank pin. One of them is deep and the others are shallow. They are all really close to each other. Im just going to verify the timing rather than parts cannon with sensors.

I broke the rear coolant line connector I think so not sure what Im going to do about that. A plastic ring and a rubber O Ring came out. Not totally sure I broke it. May have just not been seated.

I’ll verify I have the crank pin in the deepest hole in the crank and see if the cams line up. Maybe I can get away with only pulling off the small covers and not the big one.

Sucks but if it was easy it wouldn’t be rewarding. Cars are pain :)

[Rol-co]

The crank pin is the same as cil 8 at tdc, take sparkplug out and a long screwdriver on top of the piston. Fyi, i did timing at bank 2 with engine in and top cover, valve covers off.

[calebtbay]

The crank pin is the same as cil 8 at tdc, take sparkplug out and a long screwdriver on top of the piston. Fyi, i did timing at bank 2 with engine in and top cover, valve covers off.

Im totally going to do that. Good to know where TDC is. I was going to have to look it up. And see if I can lime up crank and cams. And try to get an idea if my trigger wheels are in the right place.

I fired it up probably 20 times and nothing changed. Starter doesn’t crank much and it spings to life with just a bump. Revs to 2k per usual cold start but it falls down immediately with no attempt at an idle. It doesn’t pause at idle on its way down. Cam implausible is only code.

[Old_skool]

I broke the rear coolant line connector I think so not sure what Im going to do about that. A plastic ring and a rubber O Ring came out. Not totally sure I broke it. May have just not been seated.

It doesnt sound like it has broken in the sense that any plastic on the connecter has snapped.

These quick-release connectors (at heater core hoses, and the larger radiator connectors) have to have a plastic ring inserted due to needing to create a channel for the o-ring to sit in and seal properly. This is due to the limitations (and nature of) injection moulding... ie there is no way to have the internal groove/channel for the o-ring to be molded into the connecter in one go.

I have had this ring pop out before numerous times on various radiator connectors.

...they are not difficult to get back in but some can take a few goes/pivoting etc to get it back into the right position ie not on an angle, and with enough room for the o-ring behind it (ie wide enough groove inside the connecter, past the ring that fell out).

[calebtbay]

It doesnt sound like it has broken in the sense that any plastic on the connecter has snapped.

These quick-release connectors (at heater core hoses, and the larger radiator connectors) have to have a plastic ring inserted due to needing to create a channel for the o-ring to sit in and seal properly. This is due to the limitations (and nature of) injection moulding... ie there is no way to have the internal groove/channel for the o-ring to be molded into the connecter in one go.

I have had this ring pop out before numerous times on various radiator connectors.

...they are not difficult to get back in but some can take a few goes/pivoting etc to get it back into the right position ie not on an angle, and with enough room for the o-ring behind it (ie wide enough groove inside the connecter, past the ring that fell out).

Oh good I didn’t break it. I thought it odd that it came apart but I couldn’t find any broken plastic. The ring didn’t look like it broke off. Im guessing the plastic ring goes in front of the rubber o-ring.

Does the tapered edge of the plastic ring face the engine or the firewall? Guess I can look at one of the other similar connectors.

[Old_skool]

Oh good I didn’t break it. I thought it odd that it came apart but I couldn’t find any broken plastic. The ring didn’t look like it broke off. Im guessing the plastic ring goes in front of the rubber o-ring.

Does the tapered edge of the plastic ring face the engine or the firewall? Guess I can look at one of the other similar connectors.

Makes sense, as the ring doesn't break off in the traditional sense as it is is a separate piece of plastic to begin with and i believe it is just pressed in when manufactured anyway, and just held in by very tight tolerances. It is known as an 'interference' fit, or in plain speak... held in by friction of a tight enough fit between 2 components. Either way for whatever reason sometimes they come free and come out.

When looking into the connector, the tapered edge of the ring faces out, so as to act as a funneled guide when fitting onto whatever corresponding nub/protrusion the connector fits over, then the o-ring sits behind the ring

[calebtbay]

I searched and found..

“What was your course of action to fix the P0016? It sounds like whatever you did, the car is timed incorrectly now. I would check belt and chain timing first. To answer your wiring question, pin 3 black wire goes to pin 108 at the ECU, pin 2 green/grey wire goes back to pin 86 at the ECU, and pin 1 white/black wire goes back to pin 98 at the ECU. Pins 1 and 3 tie in with a couple other wires feeding to other sensors at a crimp as well”

I thought I would check the pins to the ECU before I started taking the engine apart. They all have continuity.

On to checking TDC on cylinder 8 with the crank pin. Cylinder 8 is rearmost cylinder on bank 2 (driver side) I think…

If thats good I guess I will need to take it apart and check my trigger wheels.

[calebtbay]

Cam pin matches TDC on 8.

Took the valve cover off to check trigger wheel on bank 2. No matter how I orientate the cam tool the trigger wheel doesn’t match. Not sure what I did wrong.

Im going to go back to Alex’s and JHM’s videos and see how the cam tool should be oriented. I think I just got it backwards or upside down.

I was following directions to a T and double checking everything so I’m not sure how this happened. Trigger wheel is definitely wrong.

[Rol-co]

Glad you found something!

Is it way off? Or just the leg of the tool in the hex of the bolt?

[calebtbay]

Glad you found something!

Is it way off? Or just the leg of the tool in the hex of the bolt?

It seemed about 30 degrees out. New bolts. New torque wrench. 100nm+90. I doubt it moved. The flat side of the indexing tool faces up. Doesn’t matter which tool for which side as flat side facing up results in same orientation of trigger wheel with either tool. Its hard to screw up. The crank and cams all lined up perfect with 8 at TDC.

Got the engine back in but I didn’t put the fan/rad assembly back on the front in case I gotta pull the engine a third time.

It cranks nice but won’t take off and start. Almost sounds like its not getting fuel. No codes. No cam codes. I got one code for the cooling fans not hooked up, because they aren’t hooked up. Its nice the cam codes are gone.

last time I thought I might have to crank it for a minute to get fuel up to it. I didn’t. It started immediately. When I took the engine back out, there was lots of pressure still in the fuel rail. I know the fuel pump works and I am certain it’s getting fuel. I didn’t put the airbox back in, but I did put the assembly with the MAF on and the solenoid looking thing next to it. Throttlebody is hooked up. Electronic adjusters are plugged in. I’m certain it would complain about those things with a code if they weren’t.

I gave up for tonight. I’ll get back after it tomorrow. I wish it would give me a code so I would know what to do.

[HudsonBarrett]

It seemed about 30 degrees out. New bolts. New torque wrench. 100nm+90. I doubt it moved. The flat side of the indexing tool faces up. Doesn’t matter which tool for which side as flat side facing up results in same orientation of trigger wheel with either tool. Its hard to screw up. The crank and cams all lined up perfect with 8 at TDC.

Got the engine back in but I didn’t put the fan/rad assembly back on the front in case I gotta pull the engine a third time.

It cranks nice but won’t take off and start. Almost sounds like its not getting fuel. No codes. No cam codes. I got one code for the cooling fans not hooked up, because they aren’t hooked up. Its nice the cam codes are gone.

last time I thought I might have to crank it for a minute to get fuel up to it. I didn’t. It started immediately. When I took the engine back out, there was lots of pressure still in the fuel rail. I know the fuel pump works and I am certain it’s getting fuel. I didn’t put the airbox back in, but I did put the assembly with the MAF on and the solenoid looking thing next to it. Throttlebody is hooked up. Electronic adjusters are plugged in. I’m certain it would complain about those things with a code if they weren’t.

I gave up for tonight. I’ll get back after it tomorrow. I wish it would give me a code so I would know what to do.

I would get the air box and anything besides the fan assembly put back together. I just did this project and I did the same exact thing as you by not putting everything back together. The car started but had a very high idle.

In regards to it not starting, make sure your crank position sensor in plugged in as the spark plugs will not fire with it unplugged. Turn the key to the on position and wait to hear the pump prime itself. Do this a couple times then try to start it.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine Forum

[calebtbay]

The car sat all night. I had the battery on a charger. I opened the door a few times to do the clutch and when I went to crank it, the battery was at 12.6 V. I cracked open the fuel rail and there’s lots of pressure in there.

I went ahead and bled the clutch. The crank sensor being something that could cause this problem. I wanted to make sure that the transmission was all good to go. Clutch pedal feels good. The crank sensor is an OEM part with less than 1000 miles on it. I replaced it when I did the clutch a while back. It worked great before I did this timing and I don’t see any reason why it shouldn’t work now. It’s fresh and OEM and definitely plugged in.

I hooked up the cooling fan to get rid of the one code I had, and after two attempts still no more codes.

I pulled up VCDS measuring blocks 91, 92, 93. It’s definitely reading engine speed while it’s cranking on both banks. It has a cam adjustment number for both banks that match and are under 6%.

I’m at a loss here. I don’t know what else to check. It’s spark that it’s not getting I think and the computer won’t tell me why.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Rol-co]

Start simple, no fuses blown? Connector maf sensor ok?

Is vcds properly working during start? Picture says no engine speed?
First check what is missing, no petrol or no spark.

S344


S116

[calebtbay]

Alex is awesome. He helped me out.

He had me unplug the cam sensors one at a time. With bank 2 unplugged it fired up and died again. He said it was a cam correlation problem.

So I pulled the engine again. This time I took the covers off both sides and installed all the timing tools.

Bank 1 is spot on perfect. Exactly where I set it the very first time.

Bank 2 is off AGAIN. I swear it’s moving. I know I set it right the first time. Im really sure it was right the second time. This will make the third time I set it. It was more than 180 degrees off. I gave it 105nm and 93-95 degrees. If it doesn’t work this time I will get a new bolt. The bolt is new short of the two times I had to break it loose to set this stupid trigger wheel.


Bank 1, spot on, never had an issue.


Bank 2, wayyyyy out, resetting 3rd try. Its not even right if I turn the tool upside down.


Done. I swear to god Im doing it right.

[calebtbay]

I searched a million threads for different stuff and what irritates me is people don’t come back and tell what the solution was. So for completeness of the thread here is was Alex said and he almost certainly right. I should have installed ALL the timing tools the second time.

“ I can see how this could have happened without both banks locked in place. A 4 stroke spins the cams at ½ the speed as the crank. So if you locked the crank and only checked one side, you could be 180 degrees off from one bank to another. You have to make sure the cam front locks are in as the cams have a off centered cutout and will only lock into plate in the correct orientation.”

If I can find the rear coolant crossover o-ring that vanished like a fart in the wind I might be able to see if third times a charm tonight.

[Rol-co]

What did you do the first time? I would expect all the tools in, at least on the cam's. When i did in car at bank 2 i had both flat camshaft plates in, 8 at tdc, and yes, a 4 stroke has 2 times tdc in one rotation camshaft. Exhaust stroke and compression stroke.

Hope this is last time, i will lighten a candle for you. 😀

[calebtbay]

What did you do the first time? I would expect all the tools in, at least on the cam's. When i did in car at bank 2 i had both flat camshaft plates in, 8 at tdc, and yes, a 4 stroke has 2 times tdc in one rotation camshaft. Exhaust stroke and compression stroke.

Hope this is last time, i will lighten a candle for you.

It wasn’t complaining about bank 1 so I didn’t fool with it. Even now bank 1 is spot on and I only had to undo the valve cover and timing cover to put the stupid tools on. I put an extension in 8 and lined up the cam pin. 8 TDC and cam pin lined up. I took the valve cover off bank 2 and the cams were lined up and would have accepted the plate but I didn’t use it. I just had someone hold the cam with a wrench while I loosened it enough to move the trigger wheel, reset it, torqued it back. The cams still lined up when I was done:)

Now I removed the combi valves, coolant crossover line, dipstick, valve covers, and both upper timing covers. I put in all the timing tools both banks and pin. I still only adjusted bank 2. Simply looking at bank 1 by taking off the valve cover would have told me I was in the wrong spot. What I did the 2nd time probably would have worked if I spun the crank one more time.

The bright side is that a problem was identified. How is there no code for this? Craziness. My rod bearings are working. My piston rings are working this far. My rebuilt heads are working. Timing lines up still after all this screwing with it. Rebuilt starter and alternator are working. So I did 95% of it right.

I got it almost in. I really wanted to test it tonight. I threw in the towel at the rear coolant hose. I want to rip it from the firewall. Needs to be AN fitting or similar. I got more grease in it than Id like already. Hoist shifted and almost crushed my arm. Ill have it back in to test in the morning.

[calebtbay]

Bank 2 when I got done the first time.


Bank 2 as I just set it for a 3rd time



Those don’t look the same to me. Looks like tool was upside down.

[Rol-co]

Seems like it yes, wondering how, maybe the tool would fit but not with the good gap's in place.

[calebtbay]

Now it starts. It will give me one throttle pump. Cuts throttle. Dies. NO CODES. No freaking codes!!

https://youtu.be/GUZJb-BxTUA

[calebtbay]

Unplugged MAF. IT RUNS. It idles! The idle hops a bit but it stays running!

[Pnflds]

Making progress. 👍

[Rol-co]

Unplugged MAF. IT RUNS. It idles! The idle hops a bit but it stays running!

Yeahhh, grab a beer!

[calebtbay]

I had zero problems with the MAF before all this work and I am not convinced the MAF is bad. It won’t run with the MAF hooked up.

After running (MAF unhooked) the idle began to smooth out. The video below is it running with the smoothest idle it had all day.

Can someone that understands these numbers tell me if the cam adjustment numbers are normal? Is it just learning all the new parts?

Ill have another MAF tomorrow but I almost bet it doesn’t run with that one either.

https://youtu.be/_ayhMAqMYqQ

[Rol-co]

Hard to tell, idle is not steady, this is mine after adjuster repair.


Wrong one, this is good one

[calebtbay]

Hard to tell, idle is not steady, this is mine after adjuster repair.


Wrong one, this is good one

It’s running base map because MAF unhooked. You are right its not steady but had notable improvement the longer it ran. Couldn’t run it long because no coolant. Tomorrow Ill put coolant in and should have new MAF. I can let it warm up.

I was a little concerned seeing over 15 but I see you were going a little over 15 there once or twice.

[Rol-co]

It’s running base map because MAF unhooked. You are right its not steady but had notable improvement the longer it ran. Couldn’t run it long because no coolant. Tomorrow Ill put coolant in and should have new MAF. I can let it warm up.

I was a little concerned seeing over 15 but I see you were going a little over 15 there once or twice.

Don't run too long without coolant, not so good because these engines running very hot even with coolant. After some repairs i had also a bit fishy idle runs for a few minutes, getting better when it runs for a while. Without the maf sensor its never like it should, I'm curious if a new one solve that. Hang in there 😅

[CT Bay]

Well shit.

IMG_8821.jpg

[sid33]

Mine idled funky after I did the timing service. After pulling the intake manifold to check for leaks and replacing the MAF, all it took to fix was doing a throttle relearn using a vag scanner.

[calebtbay]

Mine idled funky after I did the timing service. After pulling the intake manifold to check for leaks and replacing the MAF, all it took to fix was doing a throttle relearn using a vag scanner.

I got her going. MAF was bad. Chinese MAF didn’t work straight away. Put on a Bosch MAF idles perfect.

VCDS says Throttle adaptation OK. Throttle valve angle reporting correctly in VCDS. I did a throttle adaptation but its my understanding it does that on its own every time you turn it on. Could be wrong.