DL382 torque limitations

[Nick27]

hey guys i got a 2018 a4 with a DL382-7Q transmission, steage 1 ie is putting up almost 400ft lbs on stage 1. the claimed max limit for the transmission is 400nm which is about 295 ft lbs. how is the tune working properly? or is this transmission severely under ratted in power handling? is it a software or hardware fix?

[Kosmaras]

Have IE stage 1 on my A5 SB and have wondered the same thing. The torque is intense and I'm concerned about clutch/transmission longevity.

[Smac770]

DL382 is 400Nm (for 2.0T), DL382+ is 500Nm (for 3.0T). That Audi bothered to build a reinforced variant for the 3.0T should tell you they don't believe the base one will hold up over time with the 3.0T output levels. The DL382+ is only in quattro ultra config (DL382+-7A, type 0HL); that's why they made it, to be able to put quattro ultra on all A6/A7 (which uses both the 2.0T and the 3.0T).

The rear diff used with the DL382 is also structured around a 400Nm transition.

GH1 (Torsen center), DL382-7Q type 0CL, 400Nm:
type 0DB (HL175.S2) for 2.0T engines

GH1 (Torsen center), ZF 8HP65A, type 0D5, 700Nm:
type 0D2 / 0G2 (HL195.S2 / HL195.S3) for 3.0T/2.9T engines

GH1 (Torsen center), ZF 8HP95A, type 0D6, 1000Nm:
type 0DG (HP230.S2) for 4.0T engines

GH4 (quattro ultra), DL382-7A, type 0CJ, 400Nm:
type 0B0 (HL165.U1) for 2.0T engines,

GH4 (quattro ultra), DL382+-7A, type 0HL, 500Nm:
type 09R (HL195.U1) for 3.0T engines

[Nick27]

considering IE stage 1 is beyond 500nm with 400ft lbs on 91 octane... arent the clutchs gonna start slipping? the torque is considerably high... whos right and wrong ?

[Thumper3]

considering IE stage 1 is beyond 500nm with 400ft lbs on 91 octane... arent the clutchs gonna start slipping? the torque is considerably high... whos right and wrong ?

The max torque rating from Audi is for longevity, it's not a mechanical limit that if you exceed it the clutches just start spinning. Yes, they will "slip" when you exceed that limit at some point (it's one thing a TCU tune can adapt for to exert more clamping force, which still comes with longevity concerns but pay to play) which will cut their life short but tuning in the first place places more stress on your turbo and internals and shortens their life versus a stock car. APR, IE, Uni, etc are not going to sell a tune that can't be used or will destroy the car quickly, that's not how you stay in business.

[Millzy32]

hey guys i got a 2018 a4 with a DL382-7Q transmission, steage 1 ie is putting up almost 400ft lbs on stage 1. the claimed max limit for the transmission is 400nm which is about 295 ft lbs. how is the tune working properly? or is this transmission severely under ratted in power handling? is it a software or hardware fix?

Get the Unitronics TCU Tune. You'll enjoy the 4k launch control too.

[Nick27]

Get the Unitronics TCU Tune. You'll enjoy the 4k launch control too.

how has your tranny been holding up with all that torque? did the tcu tune lock it down better, have you experienced any clutch slipping under hard booting?

[Millzy32]

how has your tranny been holding up with all that torque? did the tcu tune lock it down better, have you experienced any clutch slipping under hard booting?

No issues whatsoever even before the TCU Tune although after the shift points are just better and the quickness of the shift in manual mode is instant with no delay. I think the factory transmission is able to hold Stage 2 torque just fine but the TCU tune just helps to make everything a lot smoother in my opinion.

[Nick27]

No issues whatsoever even before the TCU Tune although after the shift points are just better and the quickness of the shift in manual mode is instant with no delay. I think the factory transmission is able to hold Stage 2 torque just fine but the TCU tune just helps to make everything a lot smoother in my opinion.

that's great to know , but why would audi rate the limit to 400nm which is 300ft lbs....?

[Smac770]

One instance of exceeding spec and not yet breaking does not mean the specification is invalid. A spec doesn't mean it's going to break 1 Nm over it; it means it's assured to hold up every production instance for operational lifetime without warranty claim issues. People run stuff past spec all the time, it's fine so long as they understand the implications of doing so.

[Millzy32]

that's great to know , but why would audi rate the limit to 400nm which is 300ft lbs....?

The speed limit doesn't stop people from speeding. Or so I've been told. Food doesn't really go bad on the expiration date. German car manufacturers also don't tell you the true 0-60 times or even the true HP from the factory. I'm sure they set these "limit" far below what is actually going to do any damage to the vehicle to save themselves. Torque is a reason I wouldn't go Stage 3 though until there is a reputable Stage 3 tune with accompanying TCU Tune. Stage 3 could easily go over 400 wtq and that would scare me a little bit even with my Stage 2 TCU tune.

[Millzy32]

One instance of exceeding spec and not yet breaking does not mean the specification is invalid. A spec doesn't mean it's going to break 1 Nm over it; it means it's assured to hold up every production instance for operational lifetime without warranty claim issues. People run stuff past spec all the time, it's fine so long as they understand the implications of doing so.

I'm sure they are selling a lot of Stage 1 and Stage 2 Tunes for this platform and I'm not hearing about transmissions failing. They all claim to exceed these "limits" but not by a whole lot. I'd take my chances because stage 1 is so much better than stock. With only stage 1 you have a complete sleeper that is also quiet. Stage 2 quiet goes away and that was probably my biggest drawback but I did it anyway and love it. You can control the noise somewhat.

[Thumper3]

that's great to know , but why would audi rate the limit to 400nm which is 300ft lbs....?

Did I use invisible ink?

The max torque rating from Audi is for longevity, it's not a mechanical limit that if you exceed it the clutches just start spinning. Yes, they will "slip" when you exceed that limit at some point (it's one thing a TCU tune can adapt for to exert more clamping force, which still comes with longevity concerns but pay to play) which will cut their life short but tuning in the first place places more stress on your turbo and internals and shortens their life versus a stock car. APR, IE, Uni, etc are not going to sell a tune that can't be used or will destroy the car quickly, that's not how you stay in business.

It's not like how they rate bridges......




The Audi limit is for warranty as they consider the parts "lifetime" and it should be mentioned the rating and expectation for lifetime is also how they come up with service schedule. As soon as you start putting more power into the transmission you should increase service frequency.

[Millzy32]

Did I use invisible ink?




It's not like how they rate bridges......




The Audi limit is for warranty as they consider the parts "lifetime" and it should be mentioned the rating and expectation for lifetime is also how they come up with service schedule. As soon as you start putting more power into the transmission you should increase service frequency.

I think the cartoon explains it all. If the tuners thought that the stage 1 or 2 tunes they are selling would break the DSG they would have big problems on their hands. They aren't tuning the cars to max limits because they could never stay in business doing it that way. They tune it to limits that are drivable and still reliable.

[djapeA4]

DL382 is 400Nm (for 2.0T), DL382+ is 500Nm (for 3.0T). That Audi bothered to build a reinforced variant for the 3.0T should tell you they don't believe the base one will hold up over time with the 3.0T output levels. The DL382+ is only in quattro ultra config (DL382+-7A, type 0HL); that's why they made it, to be able to put quattro ultra on all A6/A7 (which uses both the 2.0T and the 3.0T).

The rear diff used with the DL382 is also structured around a 400Nm transition.

GH1 (Torsen center), DL382-7Q type 0CL, 400Nm:
type 0DB (HL175.S2) for 2.0T engines

GH1 (Torsen center), ZF 8HP65A, type 0D5, 700Nm:
type 0D2 / 0G2 (HL195.S2 / HL195.S3) for 3.0T/2.9T engines

GH1 (Torsen center), ZF 8HP95A, type 0D6, 1000Nm:
type 0DG (HP230.S2) for 4.0T engines

GH4 (quattro ultra), DL382-7A, type 0CJ, 400Nm:
type 0B0 (HL165.U1) for 2.0T engines,

GH4 (quattro ultra), DL382+-7A, type 0HL, 500Nm:
type 09R (HL195.U1) for 3.0T engines

Do you know if the DSG differences are in software only with limiters imposed by Audi for specific engines, or are they mechanically different as well? Aren't many RS models also using the same 7-speed DSG or are theirs completely different units?

The OP's question is totally legitimate as he wonders (same as I do) how it will affect it long term. This is a $15k transmission, and the Stg-1 Torque will go above it's limit every time you accelerate to overtake someone (since it's maxed out at 3000 rpm). I get that there aren't any blown DGS's reported 'as of yet' but it's only been few years since B9 tunes came out. It remains to be seen.

[Smac770]

B8 S and RS used the DL501 DCT (DSG is a VW marketing name, the Audi equivalent is s-tronic). The B9 S and RS models switched to the ZF torque converter automatic (while the A model made the opposite switch).

I'm sure the DL382+ is more than just a software change. There's also a stronger rear diff, as shown.

[djapeA4]

B8 S and RS used the DL501 DCT (DSG is a VW marketing name, the Audi equivalent is s-tronic). The B9 S and RS models switched to the ZF torque converter automatic (while the A model made the opposite switch).

I'm sure the DL382+ is more than just a software change. There's also a stronger rear diff, as shown.

So what I think you are saying is Audi once had a bad ass 1000Nm S-tronic (let's talk Audi not to confuse with other VW gimmicks) designed for powerful RS models, but now switched those over to ZF transmission proving to be just as fast, then decided to spend extra money on a new weaker S-tronic unit made just for 2.0t & 3.0t. And not just one, but to manufacture 3 different DL382 versions just in order to limit torque? I have a hard time believing these are mechanically different at all, aside from the diff. Unless any mechanical limitations were easy to make just to stick to the tuners if for no other reason.

[Smac770]

The DL501 (550Nm spec) supported:
B8 S4/S5 3.0T: 333hp, 440Nm (325 ft-lbs)
B8 RS4/RS5 4.2L: 450hp, 430Nm (317 ft-lbs)
C7 S6/S7 4.0T: 450hp, 550Nm (406 ft-lbs)

The DL382 (400Nm spec) is the second gen DCT, replacing the DL501. It's transverse sibling is the DQ381 in VW products, replacing the 6-speed DQ250E. To extend quattro ultra to the 3.0T in the C8 A6/A7, Audi needed more, and made the DL382+.

Don't know what your issue is with products get improved (but only to the application target), products get build cost optimized, etc. The overview of changes for the DL382+ are shown in SSP 669 pages 32-33.

Wonder if the service TV videos are anywhere to be watched.

[Thumper3]

B8 S and RS used the DL501 DCT (DSG is a VW marketing name, the Audi equivalent is s-tronic). The B9 S and RS models switched to the ZF torque converter automatic (while the A model made the opposite switch).

I just rolled my eyes when they did this, the suburban housewife in the bare bones A4 gets a performance DCT and the performance dedicated S4, not to mention the RacingSport (RS)4, gets an archaic ZF. LOL It's a cost thing mostly I am sure, and yes the computer controls for the ZFs are advanced and can simulate a DCT.........but they aren't a DCT, they can imitate very well for the average driver. But ZFs that can hold the power of those models are cheaper than a DCT that can and smaller sales numbers means they can't absorb the cost the same. Still just logically crazy.

I have a hard time believing these are mechanically different at all, aside from the diff. Unless any mechanical limitations were easy to make just to stick to the tuners if for no other reason.

Torque handling is down to clutchpack strength (and holding pressures), it would certainly be a cost savings to use the exact same housing and design but put extra clutchpacks (thereby increasing cost per unit, more material/parts = more cost) to obtain additional holding. Just as sure as I am that the trans will not explode instantly when the published rating is exceeded I am also sure that Audi/VW does not maintain separate designations and part numbers for mechanically identical parts. So yes, the mechanical changes would be super easy to do, simply adding an additional plate to a clutch pack and boost holding.

[djapeA4]

The DL501 (550Nm spec) supported:
B8 S4/S5 3.0T: 333hp, 440Nm (325 ft-lbs)
B8 RS4/RS5 4.2L: 450hp, 430Nm (317 ft-lbs)
C7 S6/S7 4.0T: 450hp, 550Nm (406 ft-lbs)

The DL382 (400Nm spec) is the second gen DCT, replacing the DL501. It's transverse sibling is the DQ381 in VW products, replacing the 6-speed DQ250E. To extend quattro ultra to the 3.0T in the C8 A6/A7, Audi needed more, and made the DL382+.

Don't know what your issue is with products get improved (but only to the application target), products get build cost optimized, etc.

I've no issue with products getting improved, but as you pointed out "only to the application target" is exactly the question being asked here. As stated above "The DL501 (550Nm spec) supported:" you list 3 different HP/TQ specs are that are representative of those engines' specs (B8 S4/RS4, C7 S6/S8 etc), it sounds like all those cars used the same transmission that supported all engines up to 550 Nm torque (at least that's how it appears). That would be good cost optimizing in my view, just with the new and better generation of DSG.
Instead DL382 has 3 variants and all 3 have been made weaker than DL501. Why?

[Smac770]

"it sounds like all those cars used the same transmission", that's why I listed them, that's the cars the DL501 was used in. The new RS 2.9T comes in at 600 Nm.

Agendas change. And bean counters are the bane of logic. Why didn't we get a stronger DCT and that continue to be used in the S and RS models? No idea. And you'll probably never get an (honest) explanation from Audi either. Why didn't Audi just get a version of the PDK (ZF makes it, not Porsche)? Cost I imagine. Looks like BMW has been doing the same thing, from the quick google searching.

https://www.drive.com.au/news/audi-s...160616-gpkryu/
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...-audi-rs5.html
https://rennlist.com/forums/992/1232...-lineup-3.html

[djapeA4]

Yeah, we can only guess the reasons behind the switch to ZF. Some sources say it's reliability when it comes to high torque engine applications that affects the cost of the DSG unit. DL501 had a lot of issues (being a 1st gen) and Audi probably concluded that most of those resulted from it not being able to properly handle torque above 400 Nm. They are expensive to begin with and now cost even more to reinforce like in the case of Porsche's PDK. This extra cost is easily past on to a Porsche customer who can afford a 911, but scaled back to 'almost just as quick' ZF 8 for a more mass produced and cheaper Panamera. For the same reason 2023 R8 is still continuing with the ultra fast DSG, while S/RS cars get to have ZF8.

Circling back to gen-2 DL382 (400 Nm) vs DL382+ (500 Nm) I wonder if anyone knows if they use the same clutch packs or not. I might actually call Unitronic dealer to ask them since they are the only ones offering TCU upgades to a stage-2.

[Nick27]

Yeah, we can only guess the reasons behind the switch to ZF. Some sources say it's reliability when it comes to high torque engine applications that affects the cost of the DSG unit. DL501 had a lot of issues (being a 1st gen) and Audi probably concluded that most of those resulted from it not being able to properly handle torque above 400 Nm. They are expensive to begin with and now cost even more to reinforce like in the case of Porsche's PDK. This extra cost is easily past on to a Porsche customer who can afford a 911, but scaled back to 'almost just as quick' ZF 8 for a more mass produced and cheaper Panamera. For the same reason 2023 R8 is still continuing with the ultra fast DSG, while S/RS cars get to have ZF8.

Circling back to gen-2 DL382 (400 Nm) vs DL382+ (500 Nm) I wonder if anyone knows if they use the same clutch packs or not. I might actually call Unitronic dealer to ask them since they are the only ones offering TCU upgades to a stage-2.

id be interested in what unitronic has to say on this based on there testing with the eco and tcu tune they developed. someone has to have an answer to how much this transmission/transfercase can handle. if it comes down to a clutch pack issue or a software clamping force issue. its not a question for 700$ for the tune... its the question who's gonna pay for a 10k transmission based on numbers that exceeded the max amount "claimed"

[djapeA4]

id be interested in what unitronic has to say on this based on there testing with the eco and tcu tune they developed. someone has to have an answer to how much this transmission/transfercase can handle. if it comes down to a clutch pack issue or a software clamping force issue. its not a question for 700$ for the tune... its the question who's gonna pay for a 10k transmission based on numbers that exceeded the max amount "claimed"

So the guy at Unitronic could not confirm if the clutch packs are exactly the same as let's say DL501 or DL382+, but says that DL382 is mechanically strong enough to at least handle up to 374 ft/lbs which is what their stg-2 ECU tune is rated at. He made me feel a bit more comfortable with this idea by saying that Unitronic had refused to create a TCU tune on some older VW models because their engineers discovered mechanical flaws in those transmissions. By releasing this TCU stage 2 software for DL382 it shows that they feel confident it will last as long as the torque limited stock version of DL382, otherwise it would be a risky business proposition.

[Nick27]

Seems fair, IE stage 1 is right about there….although there stage 2 is higher then 400.. it’s nice to know that a tcu tune can aid in the high torque under the max amount of stress the stock clutch packs can handle…clearly Audi like always, under rates there hardware lol

[Goned]

From what I know besides the figures mentioned is that I asked IE and UNI for a STAGE 1 if it was necessary to put the TCU... and they both confirmed to me that it was not necessary - Uni just told me for stage 2 it is necessary, but IE told me that even with stage 2 it was not necessary that they had tested very hard and intensely their cars.

After...again - STOCK or STAGE 1 - you are not ALWAYS in the gas pedal at the bottom. It is sometimes that you do it...so the wear yes it will surely have more quickly than STOCK but it is also the case STOCK to do it often it does not help over time.

[djapeA4]

IE stage 1 is right about there….although there stage 2 is higher then 400.. it’s nice to know that a tcu tune can aid in the high torque under the max amount of stress the stock clutch packs can handle…

From what I understand, Uni's software temporarily increases factory torque limits and clutches' clamping force only during times when it about to go over 295 ft/lbs. DL382 both 400 and 500 Nm variants have wet clutches that are apparently more reliable and not prone to getting burnt out due to overheating. He recommends purchasing Uni's STg-1/2 ECU tune since their TCU software was tested inhouse to go hand in hand with those ECU tunes. Obviously a sales pitch as well, but it does make sense even though we know many people have paired this with IE's stg-1 and it works great.

According to this thread (https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techn...earbox-15.html), the 382 designation is supposed to mean max torque in ft/lbs which translates to 500-550 Nm. I would like to believe this to be true, as it would then explain why Uni's Stg-2 doesn't go over 374 ft/lbs leaving a small buffer zone to not overly stress the transmission beyond what should be it's lifetime durability maximum by design.

[Smac770]

Audi is a German company, they do things in Nm, not ft-lbs. "The 0HL gearbox is a further variant of the DL382 gearbox series. Specific measures have been implemented in order to raise the torque capacity from the previous level of 400 Nm to 500 Nm."

[djapeA4]

Audi is a German company, they do things in Nm, not ft-lbs. "The 0HL gearbox is a further variant of the DL382 gearbox series. Specific measures have been implemented in order to raise the torque capacity from the previous level of 400 Nm to 500 Nm."

It looks like those 'specific measures' are nothing more than software limitations/different clamping forces imposed on the same transmission, at least that's according to UNI and others who offer TCU upgrades on it. You really think companies with multi-million $ revenue like to gamble with this stuff? I doubt it.


Screenshot_20230309_100035.jpg

[Smac770]

I already said a general overview of the 0HL modifications are detailed in the SSP.

[Kerbouchard]

Any new thoughts on this since March?

Considering picking up a 2.0t (and would like to be able to take it to stage 2 at least).

Is the uni ecu/tcu combo still the best thing running?