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  1. #1
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    Squeal at idle, excessive vacuum, pcv hoses replaced. Help!

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    Hi, 2014 rs5.

    Like all other pcv issues. Loud squeal once car is warmed up. Oil cap is hard to remove when car is on, excessive vacuum. Replaced both pcv hoses on top with oem parts. Still makes the noise. Noise goes away once oil cap is removed and engine on. Not sure what else it could be. No online diagrams of pcv system further than the hoses that were replaced.

    Help.
    Please lol.

  2. #2
    Established Member Two Rings TontoLoidRS5's Avatar
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    You replaced the whole PCV, for lacking a better word, units with OEM units? My oil cap does not come off easy, but I don't have a loud squeal, but a "normal" one and just replaced one PCV valve.

    Is the loud coming from the back of the engine by the pcv valves? What happens if you put your fingers over the little openings on the PCV housing?

  3. #3
    Established Member Two Rings TontoLoidRS5's Avatar
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    Either way, oil cap should not come off too easily if the PCV system is working, so it might only be it working too well. If you don't have a stethoscope at hand, you can use a decibel meter app on your phone, and we can compare.

  4. #4
    Established Member Two Rings TontoLoidRS5's Avatar
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    If i am not wrong there must be a little hissing coming from functioning PCV valves as they are on top of the engine, have openings and are in light plastic.

  5. #5
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    On the bottom of the intake hose on the drivers side, there is another hose that goes from the elbow to a plate under the upper intake manifold. That hose has clamps that were broken and that hose was not even attatched to the intake elbow. New hose is back ordered and I have been waiting for it from Audi for 3 weeks 🙄. Also ordered a new plate, gasket, and intake gaskets. Hopefully this is what the noise is. Didn’t have time to attatch the hose or smoke test that as I was already removing the manifold while trying to diag and noticed after it was already removed.

  6. #6
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    The CFSA 4.2L V8 in the B8 RS models integrates four functions into essentially three hoses:

    1. positive crankcase vent - a pathway to allow positive pressure build up in the crankcase due to blow-by gasses to vent out. As these gases contain significant hydrocarbon content, they are routed to the intake manifold to be burned rather than vented to the atmosphere.
    2. negative crankcase pressure - a negative pressure crankcase provides for better ring seal, reducing oil consumption to the combustion chamber and reducing blow-by. Vacuum from the intake manifold is routed to the crankcase to establish the crankcase vacuum. As the intake manifold vacuum is much higher (20 inHg maybe) than desired in the crankcase (maybe 3 inHg), a pressure regulator valve is used. As it happens, the PCV function also uses a pathway from the intake manifold to the crankcase.
    3. fresh air breather - since there is a vacuum path now established, if we vent fresh air into the crankcase, we can always be pulling the water vapor logged crankcase gasses out of the crankcase, preventing the water vapor resettling into the oil on engine off. The CFSA does this by routing a line from the left air intake pipe (after the air filter) to the crankcase.
    4. crankcase gas oil separator - As the crankcase gasses are being burned off, we really don't want to lose the oil itself in the gasses. So oil separators are built into the cylinder heads. As such, the IM vacuum is routed to the cylinder heads, which have integrated oil separators, which route the vacuum to the crankcase.



    https://audi.7zap.com/en/usa/audi+rs.../1/103-103030/


    The fresh air breather path is just a pipe (item 3) from the left intake elbow pipe to the top of the block, to a plate next to the oil filter stand:

    CFSA crankcase breather tube.jpg

    The CFSA is a naturally aspirated engine. Everything is at ambient or vacuum. The air in the intake path is at ambient at most, the air in the engine bay is at ambient. All the having the hose hanging free from the intake elbow did was allow dirty engine bay ambient air into the engine, rather than air cleaned by the engine air filter. The CFSA is a MAP engine, not a MAF engine, so there's no air metering issue that would have been introduced.


    The intake manifold vacuum path is a pair of pipes (items 1 and 2) with regulator valves, going from the intake manifold to each cylinder head. This is likely your problem area.



    It's nice that ECS puts up nice pics of the actual products, but they do love to leave out important aspects. Notice the top of the regulator valve, there's one direction where it has a raised flat.



    Now we can see the outside of that flat, it's a hole.

    The regulator valve regulates the amount of vacuum from the intake manifold exposed to the crankcase (cylinder heads) by opening up or closing down the opening through it. There's a spring that holds it open, and ambient air pressure is filling the backside through that port. When the valve is filled with ambient pressure, the inside and outside pressure cancel and there's just the spring pressure holding the valve open. But when vacuum is presented, now the ambient pressure on the outside is no longer offset and now pushes down on the valve against the spring, closing it in accordance with the amount of vacuum present.

    What you have most likely is a torn diaphragm. Now the balance act is broken, the valve opens fully, full IM vacuum is passing to the cylinder heads and crankcase, and the IM vacuum is likely pulling in air at a high rate through that little port. If your car sounds like a freight train whistle, that's your whistle.

    The CFSA, as mentioned, is a MAP vehicle, so you won't get a rough idle per se, certainly not like my 2.0T, but you're still exposing the crankcase seals to extreme vacuum. More than one RMS has been blown by such conditions.
    2009 A4 Avant 2.0T quattro Prestige, 275k miles

  7. #7
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    Hi, thanks for the information.
    I have replaced both of those hoses as mentioned in my original post. The noise persisted. After doing a smoke test, smoke was found under the manifold in this area.

  8. #8
    Established Member Two Rings TontoLoidRS5's Avatar
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    If you are referring to the back of the engine and the manifold, there's a few hoses there.

    The confusion, i think, is if you replaced also the spring and diaphragm, or just the hoses of the PCVs. This is as very well explained above, a good measure to do every few years.

  9. #9
    Established Member Two Rings TontoLoidRS5's Avatar
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    This is an excellent write up, for function 2 there are vaccuum hoses underneath the UIM, upper intake manifold. Function 3, I think on the other side is for the ABS but I could be wrong.

    At the back of the UIM there is one coolant hose and multiple, I believe vaccuum hoses, unsure where they lead to, at least two of them.

  10. #10
    Established Member Two Rings TontoLoidRS5's Avatar
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    If I understand correctly, when everything is functioning properly, should then be a strong vaccuum in the cylinder heads, just weaker than that in the UIM. I think we can also conclude a weak vaccuum sound should be heard from the back of the intake. Do other owners concur?

  11. #11
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    The only path for IM vacuum to the crankcase via the cylinder heads is the PCV path, that I can tell. There are a lot of hoses on the 4.2L though, including the SAI hoses. But the other vacuum functions like brake boost and SAI run off the vacuum pump, not the intake manifold. And they don't connect back to the cylinder head oil passages.

    If you wanted to confirm it was/wasn't the PCV path, unplug the PCV hoses from the cylinder heads and see if the errant excess vacuum goes away. You'd ideally want to cover any unconnected openings (make sure nothing gets sucked into the IM via the hoses); then you could also just unplug one hose at a time to see if that hose is causing the excess vacuum.

    You'd need someone with a working 4.2L to put a vacuum gauge on the dipstick tube to get a measurement of normal crankcase vacuum. The 2.0T runs 100 mbar, the 3.0T runs 150 mbar, no idea what the spec for the 4.2L is.
    2009 A4 Avant 2.0T quattro Prestige, 275k miles

  12. #12
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    So, I first had the loud noise after car was warmed up. Like all other pcv related issues on this motor from research. If remove oil cap, the noise stops. And there is significant vacuum holding the cap on. So I replaced both pcv hoses w the valves that attatch to the uim from the valve covers. Noise was still there. Smoke tested and found smoke coming under the intake manifold around that plate where the “free air” turn goes into and then attatches via a hose to the bottom side of the drivers side air pipe.

    I’m still waiting on the hose to be sent to me from Audi 🙄 for 3 weeks. Should be in sometime this week.

    Contrary to what you’re saying, I really hope this fixes the issue as I have no idea what else could be the culprit.

    I thought it wasn’t pcv after replacing the hoses and noise persisted, but was insured by jhm and another shop that works on Audi that if the noise went away when the oil cap was removed it has to be pcv related.

    When I put everything together I will inspect all other hoses that I can to see if there are any blockages etc.

  13. #13
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    Just unplug the PCV hoses from the cylinder heads while it's running (or maybe before starting it), see what happens.
    It's highly unlikely the breather hose will change anything, it's not connecting the crankcase to any source of vacuum.
    2009 A4 Avant 2.0T quattro Prestige, 275k miles

  14. #14
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    Maybe it releases vacuum from the block back into the intake? And the intake pulling air in created the vacuum to pull from that line? Lol just making something up to help my cause as this is mind boggling.

    When I receive the new hose I will put everything back together and remove each hose. Seeeing as I replaced them with brand new oem from Audi I can’t see how they would be the issue.

    I also noticed that the clips on the side of this hose that attatch to the intake are completely broken and cannot be attatched properly. Also, somehow the bolt that attatched this hose to the plate it snapped off. So I ordered a new plate, gasket, and hose to fix that.

  15. #15
    Established Member Two Rings TontoLoidRS5's Avatar
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    When removing the oil cap, I'd have thought the noise would only go away if the issue was the driver side PCV, as that is side of the cylinder head with the oil cap.

  16. #16
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    Removing the oil cap is going to equalize the entire system; the vacuum being presented by the intake manifold > PCV hose with regulator valve > bank 1 > crankcase will pull through the bank 2 cylinder head to the open oil cap.

    The block doesn't create vacuum, the intake manifold does (from having the throttle plates mostly closed while the intake valves are open with the cylinder dropping while idling). The vacuum in the crankcase only comes from connecting it to the idling intake manifold, via the PCV hoses, modulated to a reasonable pressure level via the regulating valve.

    Apparently, the CFSA does not have a cam driven vacuum pump for the brakes like the 2.0T or 3.0T. It has an electric vacuum pump (id V192) for the brakes. So that vacuum system is completely isolated from the crankcase vacuum concerns.

    But I'm trying to process what the Audi SSP is saying about the oil separator in the cylinder heads for the 4.2L. The vacuum from the intake manifold is routed through the oil separators to the crankcase; this pulls the crankcase vapors through the oil separators and into the intake manifold. The oil separators are built into the cylinder heads (unlike my 2.0T, e.g., where the main oil separator is on the side of the block and the fine oil separator is on top of the cylinder head). Still, regardless, the only source of vacuum is the IM, and the only source of that IM vacuum coming through full force is a failed regulator valve. https://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...1#post13815018 Pretty decent summary.

    The excess vacuum with a squeal noise, going to be that regulator valve.

    I am curious, have you put a vacuum gauge on the dipstick tube and measured the actual crankcase vacuum? If it's 20-something inHg, that's full IM vacuum. If it's a couple inHg, that's normal.
    2009 A4 Avant 2.0T quattro Prestige, 275k miles

  17. #17
    Established Member Two Rings TontoLoidRS5's Avatar
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    I was unable to pull the oil plug out, with my fingers, just before I changed the quiet but confirmed slightly faulty PCV valve out. That should probably give a rough idea that there is too much vaccuum.

  18. #18
    Established Member Two Rings TontoLoidRS5's Avatar
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    Pulled the oil cap with the engine warmed up and running and you do hear, i am 99 % sure, both of the diaphragms contracting similarly much. Without analysing other symptoms maybe indicates both are OK, wo a simple test to do.

  19. #19
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    Just replaced hose….
    Hate that damn hose but of course it fixed nothing.
    Squeal happens at idle but sounds more like a bad bearing like a idler pulley going bad squeal. I have previously replaced the tensioner assembly and new belt but noise was happening before that.
    Also, squeal goes away when I remove oil cap, and then comes back the minute I put it back.
    I disconnected both side pcv hoses from valve cover and noise stops as soon as one is disconnected. And then continues when I replace them.

    To the naked ear, noise sounds like it’s coming from in between the crank pulley and the water pump. Removed the underbelly pan and heard it between there. Used a stethoscope but couldn’t pinpoint anything. Again only happens when car is warm. Water pump has been replace about 30k miles ago.

    I’m lost. Again.

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    I have also sprayed wd40 on belt and no change to noise.

  21. #21
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    The breather hose from the crankcase to the intake pipe? Yeah, that would change nothing except now you're no longer sucking in engine bay air into the crankcase and into the intake manifold.

    I'm still voting on the regulator valve diaphragm in the PCV hoses. Did you ever measure the crankcase vacuum through the dipstick tube?

    The only real way to know would be to cover the vent holes on the PCV hoses, but I don't know if you can even get to them the way they are mounted in the V8.

    When you disconnected on PCV hose from the cylinder head, you said the noise stopped. But did you leave the port on the cylinder head and the PCV hose end unplugged, open to ambient air? Did the sound return if you plugged the open port on the cylinder head, with the other PCV hose still connected to the other cylinder head?
    2009 A4 Avant 2.0T quattro Prestige, 275k miles

  22. #22
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    I have replaced both pcv hoses on the top with new oem parts and the issue still remains. Even swapped back the old ones.

    Yes, when I unplugged pcv hoses, I left the cylinder head port open to ambient air as well as the hose and the noise stops. As soon as I plug back in the noise continues.

    I do not have a vacuum meter to measure.

  23. #23
    Veteran Member Four Rings hahnmgh63's Avatar
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    When you say the PCV hoses, you do mean the hoses with the Pressure contol valve at the end? One of the pressure contol valve is what I was thinking was causing the problem.
    2003 RS6 (6Spd)
    2013 RS5 (Headers, Aluminum DSG Flywheel,JHM Stg2, etc...)
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    Yes. The ones that attatch to the back of the intake manifold to the valve cover with the pressure release valves.

    The ones pictured in the detailed explanation above that smac posted.

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    Update.

    Letting the car warmup at idle only… noise never happens. As soon as I rev it up a few times, the noise starts to happen more and more. My idle is also at 670~. And reading off of the snap on scanner, my target idle is 670… seems a little low but idles fine.

    When I remove one side pcv hose from the cylinder head, idle jumps up and then settles down. Noise stops. When I plug the pcv hose with finger(there is vacuum present in the line), the idle stays around 800 rpm and noise stops. The cylinder head port for pcv is open to ambient air.
    This happens for either side hose.

    It would seem my pcv is either pulling too much vacuum or my idle is set too low. Possibly from throttle bodies or intake manifold flaps. These are guesses obviously.

    Gonna see if there is someway to do throttle body adaptation maybe?

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    Update again lol
    Idle is fine at 650-670 from research.

    When idling. If I remove both the pcv hoses from the cylinder head, and then reattach them not fully, aka the clips don’t clip on but they are covering the whole, noise goes away and car idled fine, but can hear vacuum/suction coming from both pcv valve assemblies. Really tempted to drive this way forever as it’s been 4 months since I have driven My car 🙄

    But I won’t. Just not sure where to go from here. 🤷🏾*♂️

  27. #27
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    If it was the regulator diaphragm, it should make the noise as soon as the engine is running.

    You really need a vacuum gauge to diagnose this. You have to know what the vacuum levels are, numerically, at various points to assess if the regulator valve in the PCV hose is working correctly, etc.

    It could well be that the PCV host regulator valve only reduces the vacuum a small amount and the rest is expected to happen in the oil separator in the cylinder head.

    But the noise, you can't isolate it to the engine V center vs one of the cylinder heads, or top of engine vs bottom of engine? If it was the regulator valves in the PCV hoses, the noise would be coming from that hole I pointed out earlier, which would be center back below the intake manifold.
    2009 A4 Avant 2.0T quattro Prestige, 275k miles

  28. #28
    Veteran Member Four Rings hahnmgh63's Avatar
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    2003 RS6 (6Spd)
    2013 RS5 (Headers, Aluminum DSG Flywheel,JHM Stg2, etc...)
    2013 S5 (034 Stg2 & TCU)
    1974 911 (3.6ltr)
    2006 CTTS
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  29. #29
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    The noise SEEMS to be coming from the bottom. Right in between the crank pulley and the water pump. Using a stethoscope I cannot pinpoint it however.

    I will look into a vacuum gauge.
    Can I read the pressure using the live data from a scanner?

    At engine off the intake manifold absolute pressure I believe was at 14 psi
    And while engine idling I believe I saw 5 psi this morning.

  30. #30
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    You need to be able to measure vacuum around various points. The IM MAP is helpful there, in that you see it's reading ambient pressure at off and a vacuum of 9 psi when idling. That's 18 inHg, so near but low for what one would expect (low 20s). So you might be bleeding some vacuum to a leak (ie, the sound).

    It could be your front main seal is trashed from the super high crankcase vacuum and it's pulling air in through there, maybe why the sound appears to come from that area.

    https://www.amazon.com/Mityvac-MITMV...dp/B0002SQYUA/
    combo vacuum/pressure pump/gauge

    https://www.amazon.com/MV8000-Automo.../dp/B00265M9SS
    vacuum only pump/gauge

    Not "that" expensive; super useful. I own both.
    2009 A4 Avant 2.0T quattro Prestige, 275k miles

  31. #31
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    Turns out to be the crank seal. We think when my belt exploded that some pieces cut into it.
    Replaced the seal. Noise is gone but now it leaks oil after warmed up from what looks like the crank seal. Nothing else there to leak and wasn’t leakin before. Thought I installed incorrectly so did it all over again only for it to leak oil once more.
    So once again.
    Stuck.
    Yes I bought the oem seal, yes I have the proper install tool.

    Next step is to burn this car and smile as the flames burn this terrible experience from my mind.

  32. #32
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    So the front main seal? Curious. The crankcase vacuum would have pulled air through it; but since you're MAP not MAF, no operational error. Same as having that breather hose hanging open. But that makes no explanation for an increased crankcase vacuum experience. Ambient pressure outside air filling a vacuum space is not going to increase vacuum, will do the opposite.

    A torn regulator valve allowing full IM vacuum to the crankcase is bad because the excess vacuum can mess up seals, like the main seals. Crankcase vacuum while running is now correct value (couple inHg at most)?

    Sucks that you might be going in again on it, but at least it's not a rear main seal.
    2009 A4 Avant 2.0T quattro Prestige, 275k miles

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    Hey I’m going through the same thing and have a separate thread for it. Mine is a slight whistle coming from the driver side intake duct. Strong vacuum if I try to open the oil cap. Had a rough idle and with misfires and replaced the oem pcv system with JHM billet system. Car had a rough idle again a few weeks after installing the new system.

    Pcv system is sucking oil from the crank case into the IM. It’s leaking out and all down the engine. I was also guessing the fresh air line that Archi replaced was blocked or that I had excessive vacuum from the IM.

    Archi I hope you’re still checking this thread. Did the crank seal fix your vacuum issue? As Smac mentioned it doesn’t make much sense for that to have created a vacuum in the crank case but interested if you solved it.

    I was thinking my jhm billet pcv sys was bad. Reading through this thread I’ll start checking vacuum at the dip stick and other places to see if I can pin it down..

    Here is the thread I started for this:

    https://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...8#post14953838

  34. #34
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    Yes, I completely removed the front end and had another technician I knew come install the seal. I guess both times I installed I rolled the seal.

    As for your issue,
    Where is the oil leaking from?
    Have you recently had an oil change? Check the oil filter gasket.

  35. #35
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    My oil leak was from the upper IM and it was a pretty big leak! I took off both the UIM and LIM and found a lot of oil in the valley area. I could see where it was dripping from the UIM.

    I’ll do some research on the crank seal. Do you know why that was causing your vacuum leak?

    For the thread: I measured my vacuum at the dip stick location and it is 10inHg at idle. The JHM PCV system is pulling 20inHg at idle from each side. Shouldn't that pcv system regulate how much vacuum it pulls? 20 inHg seems high.

  36. #36
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    Hey All,

    I just wanted to follow-up that I eventually changed my crankshaft seal (removing the lower radiator hose is a nightmare) and my excessive vacuum went away. Thanks for this tip Archi!

    I’ll update the thread I had linked earlier with my findings and remaining questions.

  37. #37
    Veteran Member Four Rings hahnmgh63's Avatar
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    That's good news. I've had the front end off my car twice now including the engine on a stand, sure wish I had installed a new front main seal just in case. Not a lot of miles on my motor but that rubber is now 9yrs+ old.
    2003 RS6 (6Spd)
    2013 RS5 (Headers, Aluminum DSG Flywheel,JHM Stg2, etc...)
    2013 S5 (034 Stg2 & TCU)
    1974 911 (3.6ltr)
    2006 CTTS
    944T

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