Oiled the lug bolts

[spindlewood]

Since my tire change, I've read many threads on why I shouldn't have oiled the lug bolts. I'm trying to figure out whether having carefully wiped the threads off with a paper towel was enough to remove the oil sufficiently, or if I need to remove each bolt and clean with brake cleaner or some other substance.

Originally, my first wheel required a breaker bar to loosen each bolt and even after loosened, it was rough going for the next 20 turns and creaking to get them off. After using a wire brush, I sprayed with Seaform Deep Creep and let sit for 5+ minutes to help remove residual rust before I carefully wiped down the threads with a paper towel and reinstalled at 100 ft lbs. I did the same with the other 3 wheels, although only a couple more bolts required a breaker bar to get off. Something about that one front wheel...

The consensus says the torque spec is for dry and torquing with any lubricant will result in over-torquing. My logic says that rust must result in under-torquing. Even after wire brushing, there's still rust in the wheel threads and the bolts aren't fully rust free either.

So, the question is, how much oil lubricant remains on the bolt threads after a wipe down? Am I more at risk for over-torquing or the bolts coming loose? What would you do at this point? Re-torque after 25 - 50 miles? Clean with brake cleaner? Chill and not worry?

[spacecase]

Since my tire change, I've read many threads on why I shouldn't have oiled the lug bolts. I'm trying to figure out whether having carefully wiped the threads off with a paper towel was enough to remove the oil sufficiently, or if I need to remove each bolt and clean with brake fluid or some other substance.

Originally, my first wheel required a breaker bar to loosen each bolt and even after loosened, it was rough going for the next 20 turns and creaking to get them off. After using a wire brush, I sprayed with Seaform Deep Creep and let sit for 5+ minutes to help remove residual rust before I carefully wiped down the threads with a paper towel and reinstalled at 100 ft lbs. I did the same with the other 3 wheels, although only a couple more bolts required a breaker bar to get off. Something about that one front wheel...

The consensus says the torque spec is for dry and torquing with any lubricant will result in over-torquing. My logic says that rust must result in under-torquing. Even after wire brushing, there's still rust in the wheel threads and the bolts aren't fully rust free either.

So, the question is, how much oil lubricant remains on the bolt threads after a wipe down? Am I more at risk for over-torquing or the bolts coming loose? What would you do at this point? Re-torque after 25 - 50 miles? Clean with brake fluid? Chill and not worry?

I think you're overthinking this and actually causing a hazard for yourself. Oiling bolts that need to be torqued to spec that mount your wheels just sounds like a recipe for disaster. Youre adding a slick coating on something that needs to be tightened and required to hold something that generates heat and vibrations. You would actually spray WD-40/PB blaster or some type of lubricant on very stuck on bolts to help remove them..I'd remove each bolt and spray some brake cleaner on em to remove the oil. I know audi torques to around 90 ft-lbs which is on the higher side, but I'd just follow manufacturer's recommendations. Make sure you also clean out your inner threads on your hub as there will be some oil on them too.

[spindlewood]

I think you're overthinking this and actually causing a hazard for yourself. Oiling bolts that need to be torqued to spec that mount your wheels just sounds like a recipe for disaster. Youre adding a slick coating on something that needs to be tightened and required to hold something that generates heat and vibrations. You would actually spray WD-40/PB blaster or some type of lubricant on very stuck on bolts to help remove them..I'd remove each bolt and spray some brake cleaner on em to remove the oil. I know audi torques to around 90 ft-lbs which is on the higher side, but I'd just follow manufacturer's recommendations. Make sure you also clean out your inner threads on your hub as there will be some oil on them too.

Of course I've never been accused of overthinking things... :)

Can I spray brake cleaner into the inner threads and then wipe with a rag? Otherwise it won't be any different to how I cleaned the bolt threads to begin with - with a rag. Sounds like a rag won't be enough to remove oil - which was really my realization this morning after having gone through this.

I was debating doing this one bolt at a time to save having to take each wheel off and put back on again - but it's becoming clear I've created a lot more work for myself.

Audi spec for the SQ5 is 100 ft lbs.

[spacecase]

Of course I've never been accused of overthinking things... :)

Haha, same here
Your idea is good man, just remove one bolt at a time and clean it thoroughly. If you can try to get your finger in the bolt hole after to see if it feels slick at all. If you want to be extra careful, clean it, torque it, remove it and check if there is any slickness on the bolt, if you're good torque again and move on to the next one.

[SHCKR]

Dude, I always hand tighten my lugs with an 18" 1/2“ ratchet, until it's snug, about 1/2 my body weight if I had to guess, and I've always been able to break them loose with the same ratchet or breaker bar. If yours are seized and require significant force to break loose, I think you're way over tightening.

[Requiescat]

Oil... lug bolts... what? Never have I ever heard of anyone lubricating lug bolts/nuts

[spindlewood]

Dude, I always hand tighten my lugs with an 18" 1/2“ ratchet, until it's snug, about 1/2 my body weight if I had to guess, and I've always been able to break them loose with the same ratchet or breaker bar. If yours are seized and require significant force to break loose, I think you're way over tightening.

Rust - that's all. I use a torque wrench - always to 100 ft lbs. Not sure why the driver's front wheel is different than all the others, but that's the one I started with and it squeeked and squawked until they were out. Inspection showed more rust than the other wheels subsequently did. Hasn't happened in prior years and I've been doing the same routing twice a year for 4 1/2 years. Strange since at night I'm parked in my garage and since July, no longer commute and park outside.

Oil... lug bolts... what? Never have I ever heard of anyone lubricating lug bolts/nuts

I applied the penetrating oil to help dissolve the rust and not to lube them, although the forums of full of people who do lube. I figured you could wipe off the residual oil, but that is what I'm now questioning - how much a residual amount of oil after a wipe down counts as "lubed".

The other question is if SeaFoam's Deep Creep should even be considered an oil. It's mainly solvent. Over and over I'm reading posts like, "I never lube, but use WD40 or Kroil if needed. Deep Creep is in the same group. Seems like the small amount of oil isn't really lubing and the residual after a wipe down will be negligible.

[thermobryan]

Just buy Titanium lugs...

[spindlewood]

Just buy Titanium lugs...

At first I scoffed, but then realized this is probably pretty good advice. My wife bristled at the idea of spending $238.40 (ECS) until I described what the cost would be drilling out a snapped lug. I might then be able to dispense with the inconvenient gray caps that hide the existing corroded bolts.

Thanks for the suggestion. We'll see.

[spindlewood]

Going down the rabbit-hole of other options, I noticed that 034 has Bullet Nose Stud and Nut replacements. While not titanium, they are coated in Black Zinc. Wondering if anyone has gone this path and if you'd recommend? They're 1/3 the price and seem to offer an easier on/off experience for the tire changes.

Anyone know if the SQ5 is cone seat or ball seat?

[Smac770]

From the 2020 workshop manual

To install wheel bolts correctly, follow the sequence and instructions below.
Note - Do “not” use an impact wrench to install the wheel bolts.
♦ Before mounting a wheel, carefully clean all rim contact surfaces for the wheel hub, the wheel hub and the surfaces for the wheel bolts on the rim.
♦ Before installing the wheel bolts, carefully clean the thread and the cap contact surfaces.
♦ Apply the Optimol paste to the threads on the wheel bolts. Refer to the Parts Catalog.
♦ The ball bearing surfaces of the wheel bolts must be free of grease and clean.
♦ Do “not” use an impact screwdriver or impact wrench to insert the wheel bolts.
♦ Install all wheel bolts in a diagonal sequence until the wheel is seated securely on the wheel hub. Only then can the vehicle be placed on the ground.
♦ Place the vehicle on the ground.
♦ Use a wrench that is the correct size for the vehicle when tightening the wheel bolts to the specification.
♦ Set the required torque on the torque wrench.
♦ Tighten all wheel bolts in a diagonal sequence to the tightening specification when the vehicle is stationary on the ground.
♦ Check each wheel bolt with the torque wrench set to the correct torque at least once.
♦ By checking the torque, make sure “all” wheel bolts on “all” wheels are tightened to the required specification.
If all of the assembly steps were performed carefully and correctly, the wheel bolts do not need to be re-tightened after the vehicle has been driven a specific distance.

An image such as included in this post is from an old version of the manual, from 2010 in my case: https://www.audiworld.com/forums/a8-...osion-2988431/
The 2020 manual no longer includes that image and seems pretty clear to not contaminate the ball seat surfaces with anything, only the threads. It still has the section about the wax for the wheel hub contact surfaces, but that section no longer discusses lug bolts such as referenced in that image.

Optimol paste, https://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-3...ste-100-grams/
https://www.ilcats.ru/audi/?function...20&language=en
The catalog shows two items of relevance. I presume the G 052 109 A2 is the "Optimol" paste: https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-...ste/g052109a2/

I've only done completely dry lug bolts; I don't live in the land of salt corrosion.

[spindlewood]

From the 2020 workshop manual



An image such as included in this post is from an old version of the manual, from 2010 in my case: https://www.audiworld.com/forums/a8-...osion-2988431/
The 2020 manual no longer includes that image and seems pretty clear to not contaminate the ball seat surfaces with anything, only the threads. It still has the section about the wax for the wheel hub contact surfaces, but that section no longer discusses lug bolts such as referenced in that image.

Optimol paste, https://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-3...ste-100-grams/
https://www.ilcats.ru/audi/?function...20&language=en
The catalog shows two items of relevance. I presume the G 052 109 A2 is the "Optimol" paste: https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-...ste/g052109a2/

I've only done completely dry lug bolts; I don't live in the land of salt corrosion.

Your post is incredibly helpful, thank you. There are probably 20 threads on the Bob the Oil Guy forum with a preponderance of testimonials for using anti-seize compound. Many others take the company line of "never do that", the manufacturer says so - for reasons of over torquing and harming the bolts. It's a bit of a religious debate. It's refreshing to see at one point Audi made an attempt to address one size does NOT fit all. Those of us in the salt belt have different needs.

I've concluded after hours of reading that penetrating oil wiped off doesn't change the torquing spec. There's not much oil in it to begin with. There's some debate whether you need to reduce torque with anti-seize paste, but your post conclusively shows Audi didn't think so. Thanks again.

[WtA4WtQ5]

Anyone know if the SQ5 is cone seat or ball seat?

OEM is Spherical or “Ball”.

[FromS60toB61.8t]

For the last 15 years I've used anti-seize and an impact. The only time I have ever lost a lug was when I purchased my B9 S4 in May, brought it back to the dealer to get a tire replaced, they replaced it and "torqued everything to spec." Come home after my 20 mile drive to a missing lug and the remaining lug bolts being tightened to 45-70 ft/lb when I inspected them.

Per spec, tighten to 90-100 ft/lb (depending on the car) dry, recheck after 50 miles. Per personal experience, anti-seize on the lugs and between the wheel mounting surface and hub/rotor and apply even torque across all lugs. My gun does ~140 ftlb on the low setting, so I just tighten until they all stop.

Do with that info as you wish.

[CELison]

Next time try dipping them in cheese first. I know, this is a very complicated subject, putting wheels on a car.

[spacecase]

Next time try dipping them in cheese first. I know, this is a very complicated subject, putting wheels on a car.

Lol. Tbh I think a good chunk of people don't even know how to swap their own tires. I don't think we should bash the guy for asking a question. For the uninitiated his idea might be reasonable since oil helps with stuck on bolts but for the people that know, we know that's a horrible idea. Live and learn. Atleast he asked rather than lose a tire on the highway and hurt someone else.

[ssanderson1]

90-100 ft-lb seems like nothing when I’m tightening the lugs. Anyone else feel the same? I usually tighten them to 110-115 ft-lb….I’ve had the wheels off and on probably 8 times in 30k miles and they’ve never shown any signs of problems. Always easy to get off (at about the same torque spec).

[RickNY]

90-100 ft-lb seems like nothing when I’m tightening the lugs. Anyone else feel the same?

Yes, it feels that way -- the actual spec is 89 ft-lb (120 Nm) -- and thats what I torque to. That being said -- they've never loosened up on me or felt loose the next time I removed them.

[SHCKR]

90-100 ft-lb seems like nothing when I’m tightening the lugs. Anyone else feel the same? I usually tighten them to 110-115 ft-lb….I’ve had the wheels off and on probably 8 times in 30k miles and they’ve never shown any signs of problems. Always easy to get off (at about the same torque spec).

Yeah I was gonna say that you actually tighten it with a 3/8" 12" ratchet, and it'll be good, but didn't want the slew of criticism from internet warriors

[JRYtheS4]

Just tighten them, drive it, check if they're loose after a few hundred miles, and move on. Same procedure you're supposed to use every time you take them off.

Sent from my SM-G991U1 using Audizine Forum mobile app

[Jetta03]

Next time try dipping them in cheese first. I know, this is a very complicated subject, putting wheels on a car.

LOL! My thoughts exactly, forums tend to drastically overcook this type of topic.
Honestly, who doesn't know about the cheese dip?

[Smac770]

They all use the same wheel hubs and M14x1.5 lug bolts (just different lengths and 1-piece vs 2-piece). Just different clamping forces for different weight capacities. So what does it mean to run the 120 Nm (A4/A5) to 160 Nm (Q7/Q8) instead? No idea. But I expect the hardware should handle it just fine. Why doesn't Audi just spec 160 Nm for all vehicles? No idea; would be interesting what they had to say.

I've never had any issue just doing it to spec for my vehicle, 120 Nm.

[thermobryan]

I heard that putting a lot of yellow loctite on the threads can also help with corrosion. Can someone try it out for me?

[SHCKR]

Or this

[thermobryan]

Those are bad ass.