New owner of a 2014 Allroad and a few questions.

[zwiller]

Love this car and wanted one a long time. Long time VAG fan. Had a number of VAG cars over the years, last one being 2003 Passat Wagon. Yep, wagon nut. Well versed in much euro car stuff (use oem parts) and already have VAGCOM to work on daughters 2001 Bug. Not much info came with the car. I am trying to get definitive info about my car. IE whether I have DSG. Signed up to myAudi and cannot find the info but lists the gear ratio. Not much info there either. Excited to find there was much dealer service info at least! Looks taken care at least but it's time for service, I am near 100k. Also need to get another key and already expect that to hurt a little, but was prepared for it at least. Can you get build/definitive info somewhere? IE Car has an s line badge but nothing in my documentation does it indicate s line. Many thanks in advance.

[silver_tt]

check your timing chain if it hasn't already been done. my 2014 was badly stretched at ~80K miles

[zwiller]

check your timing chain if it hasn't already been done. my 2014 was badly stretched at ~80K miles

Yep, thanks. Started reading up on that. This sound right?

SNIP

If you still want to monitor with VCDS, the measuring block 93, field "Phase Position Bank 1 Intake" shows the value in degrees. There is no guidance which value range is 'safe'. Some statistical data collected from several automotive forums suggests the following:
- Green zone: newly installed chains and low-mileage cars 0 to -2 deg.
- Yellow zone: -2 to -4 deg. Some sources suggest to be alert even if the value is below -3 deg. and monitor the value almost as often as check your oil level
- Red zone: -4 deg and more. Be ready to replace the chain. Some people complain about chain noise at these levels, some say it is quiet. Cars are driven with the value from -4 to -6 deg, but this is a lottery.

From the other hand, on forums I've seen reports that the value was measured -5 deg, but the tensioner was extended only by two notches." SNIP

[silver_tt]

yes looks correct.... if it gets to 4-5 degrees (measured at idle with a hot engine, eg after 15+ min highway drive) then it's time to replace tensioner and timing chain (as well as guides, etc.) Sounds like you're already on top of it so good for you.......

[Smac770]

Best build info is the complete PR codes list for your VIN, which a dealership or AoA can provide to you.
US B8.5 A4 allroad (MY13-MY16) only came with 2.0T CPMx (flex fuel) engine with ZF 8-speed transmission and quattro drivetrain.

"DSG" is a VW marketing term for their DCT (dual clutch transmission). "s-tronic" is the Audi marketing term for their DCT. The s-tronic in the US B8 market was only on the S and RS models.

The EA888 ECM uses UDS; there are no measuring blocks. There is only a list of value names, accessed under Advanced Measuring Values in VCDS. The TCM and the Airbag control modules are also UDS. The rest are prior CAN protocol and use the measuring blocks architecture.

Make sure the engine is up to temp, been driven around some, and is idling when you check the camshaft intake adaptation bank 1 value (the value updates at idle, but if you've idled several times during the drive already, then the value should be legit even if you're in motion).

[zwiller]

yes looks correct.... if it gets to 4-5 degrees (measured at idle with a hot engine, eg after 15+ min highway drive) then it's time to replace tensioner and timing chain (as well as guides, etc.) Sounds like you're already on top of it so good for you.......

I waited a LONG time and read lots. THANKS

[silver_tt]

Good deal, no prolbem. I also have a 2014 so if you end up needing to do the timing refresh lmk, I have a parts list you can use.

[Theiceman]

i would start budgeting at 5 but you have a new style tensioner so no reason to panic over it. I think you will be due considering you are at 100K. in fact this could be fun . i will guess you will be 5.4 ( +/- .2) anyone else want a guess ? , this is like a playoff pool lol.

of course the thing you will want to watch is oil consumption. This is the big fear on these engines. if someone dumped it due to oil consumption that would be panful. But you really cant blame yourself as there is really no way to tell. if it is good on oil, sounds like you can have some fun with that ride.

i downloaded the myaudi app and it has every option my car came with. just register and plug in your vin.

[zwiller]

Best build info is the complete PR codes list for your VIN, which a dealership or AoA can provide to you.
US B8.5 A4 allroad (MY13-MY16) only came with 2.0T CPMx (flex fuel) engine with ZF 8-speed transmission and quattro drivetrain.

"DSG" is a VW marketing term for their DCT (dual clutch transmission). "s-tronic" is the Audi marketing term for their DCT. The s-tronic in the US B8 market was only on the S and RS models.

The EA888 ECM uses UDS; there are no measuring blocks. There is only a list of value names, accessed under Advanced Measuring Values in VCDS. The TCM and the Airbag control modules are also UDS. The rest are prior CAN protocol and use the measuring blocks architecture.

Make sure the engine is up to temp, been driven around some, and is idling when you check the camshaft intake adaptation bank 1 value (the value updates at idle, but if you've idled several times during the drive already, then the value should be legit even if you're in motion).

THANKS. That helps alot but will get the build sheet and also the VCDS info.

Can you guys point me or give me cliff notes to using E85? THANKS

[JLAllroad]

THANKS. That helps alot but will get the build sheet and also the VCDS info.

Can you guys point me or give me cliff notes to using E85? THANKS

Allroad is Flex Fuel you can use any amount of E85 and premium pump gas, your mileage will decrease accordingly, up to 30% less with full E85. Personally, I don’t like using full E85 as it attracts water, does not have the detergents of top tier fuel, does not lubricate as well and places additional burden on the fuel system, mind you I’ve been APR stg2 for 60k miles.

My guess for cam phase is 4.5%


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[silver_tt]

Avoid ethanol and run top tier gas with highest octane you can get

My phase position was 5.32 at 78K miles and I also have a 2014, so based on that I am going to guess you are north of there at 100K miles........ but let us know.

[zwiller]

i would start budgeting at 5 but you have a new style tensioner so no reason to panic over it. I think you will be due considering you are at 100K. in fact this could be fun . i will guess you will be 5.4 ( +/- .2) anyone else want a guess ? , this is like a playoff pool lol.

of course the thing you will want to watch is oil consumption. This is the big fear on these engines. if someone dumped it due to oil consumption that would be panful. But you really cant blame yourself as there is really no way to tell. if it is good on oil, sounds like you can have some fun with that ride.

i downloaded the myaudi app and it has every option my car came with. just register and plug in your vin.

Went with the A8.5 in hopes of avoiding the OC thing but yep, there is the chance. I just emailed the dealer where the work was done for the service records and curious what shakes out. I would imagine OC issues would have come up by now. In my mind the new tensioner style helped the issue.

Very interesting about the gas thing. Other forums talk up E85 like tune or power boost. I have to try a tank at least, never used the stuff. I tend to agree with you guys due to the single stroke stuff experience.

Guess I need to take a short trip and find out where I am it. Come on 2! LOL

[JLAllroad]

Went with the A8.5 in hopes of avoiding the OC thing but yep, there is the chance. I just emailed the dealer where the work was done for the service records and curious what shakes out. I would imagine OC issues would have come up by now. In my mind the new tensioner style helped the issue.

Very interesting about the gas thing. Other forums talk up E85 like tune or power boost. I have to try a tank at least, never used the stuff. I tend to agree with you guys due to the single stroke stuff experience.

Guess I need to take a short trip and find out where I am it. Come on 2! LOL

Around 100k is where the 8.5’s start using oil, my theory is those that lived most of their lives with a 10k OCI will have it, updated tensioner will not have any impact on oil consumption.

I love E85 with my APR stg2 tune, very noticeable difference vs premium. I just choose to use it in moderation, as previously described.


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[Smac770]

Audi ventured into the flex fuel idea around late '00s with the CFKA engine in Europe, then expanded that to US emissions with the CPMA and CPMB. Audi's concern for E85 was not about higher octane or more output; the CPMA/CPMB is rated the same as the CAEB/CAED. You can find more than enough about the political side of Ethanol fuel out on the Internet.

Unless you're running a tune to make extra power from the higher octane basis of E85, E85 just seems more trouble than it's worth. But yes, the engine you have is E85 capable. The fueling system and engine components are suitable for the more corrosive nature of Ethanol. Even so, Audi still says to run a tank of premium from time to time, whatever it says in the owner's manual.

As for mpg, simple system. More knock resistance, ie higher octane, means more stable, means less volatile, means less energy on demand. Diesel is design to ignite on compression, low octane, most energy per gallon. The opposite end, E85, 100+ octane, least energy per gallon. So if you have a basic engine built around 87, using 91 gives you nothing but a slight sliver of loss of mpg, and a lighter wallet. But our engines are built around premium, 91/93. So just use 91/93 premium gasoline.

[silver_tt]

Around 100k is where the 8.5’s start using oil, my theory is those that lived most of their lives with a 10k OCI will have it, updated tensioner will not have any impact on oil consumption.

Generally agree. I think it's engines that were subject to long OCIs and/or used poor quality oil. I know someone that owned a 2.0T (it was a 2010 or 2011, don't recall the exact year but an early B8 nonetheless) since new and they are very knowledgeable about cars and diligent -- changed the oil every 3K miles.....but with M1 0W-40, eek. Started drinking oil around 70-80Kish and by 100K miles the rings were toast and it was drinking oil.

There is no question short OCIs and higher quality oil will bring better luck. However, there exists the possibly that later B8s have design features which make them less predisposed to OC. I don't know what year they changed it but in the erWin documentation I downloaded for my car there is specifically a section on the injectors. It states that they moved from a single-port injector to a multi-port injector which among other benefits provides better mixture preparation. And they switched the angle of the cone of the spray jet to 50 degrees. It goes on to explicitly say that these changes resulted in less particulate matter (aka soot, which is the root cause of OC). Either way, a lot was learned in the industry about DFI over the period of time that the B8 was first released to market until it was discontinued for the B9, so it would make sense that Audi would incorporate some of those learnings as they iterated with B8 improvements.

[ps2cho]

I don’t think you can call M1 0-40w poor quality oil…it is consistently is rated a top oil.

[silver_tt]

Consistently rated as a top oil by who? No one with any credibility. I have never seen an oil shear out of grade so fast. It's a 30 weight oil by definition if you look at its viscosity. Avoid.......

[zwiller]

Around 100k is where the 8.5’s start using oil, my theory is those that lived most of their lives with a 10k OCI will have it, updated tensioner will not have any impact on oil consumption.

I love E85 with my APR stg2 tune, very noticeable difference vs premium. I just choose to use it in moderation, as previously described.


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Gas was low and I found some nearby so I got a tank of E85 and do actually feel a difference. I like your take on it, moderation with some premium now and then. Misspoke about the tensioner, I meant new PCV valve and "tune" like @silver says. I recall there was something done as no doubt the OCI was well known by then. Hoping it at least helps. My 1996 Grand Cherokee drank oil but ran well despite.

No time to check the timing last night but took snap of the oil level via MMI and reset the trip counter. We'll see...

AHH the old forum debates. Been awhile for me on that.

[DrGER]

Love this car and wanted one a long time. Long time VAG fan. ... Can you get build/definitive info somewhere? IE Car has an s line badge but nothing in my documentation does it indicate s line. Many thanks in advance.

Start by taking a picture of the vehicle information sticker affixed to the body under the rear cargo area and translating the PR codes.
If the SA at your local Audi dealer (Jessie Nida at Sylvania?) can't/won't get you the build sheet for your VIN, you can get it at erWin.audiusa.com when you get the service manual PDF docs for your Allroad (if you haven't done this already).

BTW, I can point you to MMI software & nav database updates, as needed. --g

[zwiller]

Start by taking a picture of the vehicle information sticker affixed to the body under the rear cargo area and translating the PR codes.
If the SA at your local Audi dealer (Jessie Nida at Sylvania?) can't/won't get you the build sheet for your VIN, you can get it at erWin.audiusa.com when you get the service manual PDF docs for your Allroad (if you haven't done this already).

BTW, I can point you to MMI software & nav database updates, as needed. --g

THANKS. Great info. Haven't decided on a dealer but service was done at Mentor. Looks like I need to purchase a subscription for Erwin and harvest the info. I thought erwin was pro only for some reason. Heck yeah, please point me to the MMI/nav info! Nice to see a buckeye around these parts.

[DrGER]

THANKS. Great info. Haven't decided on a dealer but service was done at Mentor. Looks like I need to purchase a subscription for Erwin and harvest the info. I thought erwin was pro only for some reason. Heck yeah, please point me to the MMI/nav info! Nice to see a buckeye around these parts.

The 24-hour subscription for $35 is a great value when you know what to look for beforehand. You can poke around https://erwin.audiusa.com/erwin/showSearch.do to get an idea of what all is available at the site.

I've had decent experiences with Audi Sylvania in the past. They R&R'ed the pistons/rings in our previous A4 as an extended warranty claim with AoA, though Mentor has a good reputation, too.

MMI software update info is HERE.

Recent (released 2019) NAR nav database update info is HERE. --g

[Smac770]

ODIS is the diagnostic toolkit that requires a subscription for full use. ERWIN (erwin.audiusa.com) is just an information repository. Pay for a day pass and grab all the PDFs for your VIN. ETKA (implemented by partslink24.net) is the online parts catalog, but price prohibitive for private owners. Free to use an ETKA clone site like https://audi.7zap.com/en/usa/ instead.

[zwiller]

Thanks gents! All signed up and playing around at erwin. Will pull the trigger soon and get the info. I should be able to update the MMI and NAV but I have zero clue how the NAV works. Looks like cellular so need a subscription/cell? Would rather not have to pay for that.

Car only came with 1 key and want another. I know the drill but any workarounds? Buy OEM used and find locksmith that has erwin? Was quoted like $700 and I need to make 2 trips to do it.

[DrGER]

Thanks gents! All signed up and playing around at erwin. Will pull the trigger soon and get the info. I should be able to update the MMI and NAV but I have zero clue how the NAV works. Looks like cellular so need a subscription/cell? Would rather not have to pay for that.
...

Navigation is vector-based. Before the 3G shutdown this spring, MMI 3G+ systems could also use an image overlay from Google Earth through the integrated 3G data modem and an AT&T-based SIM. Alas, that all went away on or about 20 March this year. In case you're really interested, it is possible to provision MMI 3G+ systems with internet data through a USB ethernet connection -- see my current solution to this HERE. --g

[Smac770]

There's two kinds of keys you can get, ones that are cut for your car and ones that are just blanks. You'd need to check with the dealership on the pricing of the two options. If you don't get it cut, then you won't be able to use the metal key in the driver's door to lock/unlock it in the event of a key fob problem or power loss. But as long as you have at least one on hand, .... Then once you have the key, the immobilizer needs to be programmed with it. Shouldn't be more than an hour labor to do that (and won't be an hour to actually do it). So $700 for the key and the programming certainly seems a tad on the premium priced side.

8K0959754B TKE - standard key fob with cut key, $320
8K0959754B ROH - standard key fob without cut key, $165
8K0959754BB TKE - "S/S-line" key fob with cut key, $275
8K0959754BB ROH - "S/S-line" key fob without cut key, $155

The BB version just has the S logo on it. The prices are roughly general prices out there such as audioemparts.com and genuineaudiparts.com. Shipping costs will be the difference. Then $200 or so for an hour labor to program it.

The dealership should be able to confirm that the above are the correct part numbers for the key fobs for your vehicle. Might ask them to confirm the difference between TKE and ROH. I'm posting simply what I can piece together from the available information.


Key cutting and immobilizer programming requires a higher level of Audi authorization than a standard ODIS subscription. Has to be part of that locksmith program, etc. Of course, the dealership can always process it. But I wouldn't buy the actual key there unless they are really good at pricing.


The NAV is based on the data stored on the hard drive in the MMI 3G unit. Any online services are/will be offline as 3G gets shut down. The hard drive data is updated from SD card.

[ps2cho]

Consistently rated as a top oil by who? No one with any credibility. I have never seen an oil shear out of grade so fast. It's a 30 weight oil by definition if you look at its viscosity. Avoid.......

I occasionally read the Bob the Oil Guy forums and their results typically show it more than acceptable.

Also my person OA results from Blackstone mirror the sentiment. More important to be honest than the oil (as long as you’re not using bargain Walmart oil etc) is the engine itself. Garbage engines will trash the oil. Solid engines are easy on the oil.

The EA888 Gen 1 and Gen 2 are just garbage engines.

[silver_tt]

Gasoline direct injection is the problem. It is what trashes the oil. My 2014 at 105K miles doesn't burn a drop of oil yet I see people with 2014s, 2015s, 2016s, and 2017s with the same or less mileage drinking oil. From what I can see they are doing long OCIs and/or using cheap oil.

My beef with M1 0W-40 is the same as everyone else's: that it shears out of grade quickly. Your Blackstone report will show this -- what is the cSt Viscosity at 100C?

[JLAllroad]

Gasoline direct injection is the problem. It is what trashes the oil. My 2014 at 105K miles doesn't burn a drop of oil yet I see people with 2014s, 2015s, 2016s, and 2017s with the same or less mileage drinking oil. From what I can see they are doing long OCIs and/or using cheap oil.

My beef with M1 0W-40 is the same as everyone else's: that it shears out of grade quickly. Your Blackstone report will show this -- what is the cSt Viscosity at 100C?

Here’s my Blackstone after my longest OCI using LiquiMoly Hitech(German) 5w-40, with 50/50 91 vs E50.

Main concern is the high flow filter letting dirt in.IMG_9910.jpg


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[ps2cho]

Gasoline direct injection is the problem. It is what trashes the oil. My 2014 at 105K miles doesn't burn a drop of oil yet I see people with 2014s, 2015s, 2016s, and 2017s with the same or less mileage drinking oil. From what I can see they are doing long OCIs and/or using cheap oil.

My beef with M1 0W-40 is the same as everyone else's: that it shears out of grade quickly. Your Blackstone report will show this -- what is the cSt Viscosity at 100C?

Fair enough- my old NA engine was not direct injected. I looked at a 9k interval at 147k on the odo and cST Viscosity at 100C was 11.18

I looked up my Allroad's oil change that used the factory oil (Audicare oil change), with only 3k on the oil the cST Viscosity at 100C was 12.89.

At my next oil change at 4/5k I'll send in another analysis (used LM Hitech this time since it was on my shelf).

[silver_tt]

Here’s my Blackstone after my longest OCI using LiquiMoly Hitech(German) 5w-40, with 50/50 91 vs E50.

Main concern is the high flow filter letting dirt in.IMG_9910.jpg


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Liqui Moly Leichtlauf High Tech 5W-40 full synthetic is a good oil. Your UOA looks pretty good given that you ran drain interval of 8800 miles -- but I would do the exact opposite of what Blackstone is telling you and drop the OCI to 5K miles instead of increasing it to 10K miles. With regards to the reported fuel dilution percentage, Blackstone does not use a separate FTIR test so it's more or less an estimate based off flashpoint of the oil; I doubt it's really <.5 (DFI engines can run 2% or more fuel dilution and still be operating normally). One thing I don't like is the Calcium level is high in that oil. Research has shown that lowering the level of Ca is one way to help reduce LSPI. It also doesn't use moly, which has been shown to have a synergistic relationship with ZDDP (which the Liqui Moly does have good levels of).

I am running Driven DI40. Among many other benefits it has an additive package that includes a specialized soot dispersant. Here's my UOA for comparison:

screenshot_2022_06_24_135219_3a765ce6286a68edeaf4d8a017b89b5406d39c28.jpg

[silver_tt]

Fair enough- my old NA engine was not direct injected. I looked at a 9k interval at 147k on the odo and cST Viscosity at 100C was 11.18

I looked up my Allroad's oil change that used the factory oil (Audicare oil change), with only 3k on the oil the cST Viscosity at 100C was 12.89.

At my next oil change at 4/5k I'll send in another analysis (used LM Hitech this time since it was on my shelf).

Ya, 11.18 is more like a 30 weight than a 40 weight oil. I have seen the oil shear down to such a thin oil after just a couple of thousand miles. Look at the UOA I just posted above. After 5K miles my viscosity was 14.3.

In general you can get away with a lot more on older port injected engines.


https://wiki.anton-paar.com/en/sae-viscosity-grades/

30 weight ~= 9.3 - 12.5

[ps2cho]

Ya, 11.18 is more like a 30 weight than a 40 weight oil. I have seen the oil shear down to such a thin oil after just a couple of thousand miles. Look at the UOA I just posted above. After 5K miles my viscosity was 14.3.

In general you can get away with a lot more on older port injected engines.


https://wiki.anton-paar.com/en/sae-viscosity-grades/

30 weight ~= 9.3 - 12.5

Is there another alternative that’s not $15-18/qt? I mean I’d rather run a 3-5k oil change at half the price, than run 6-10k OCs at twice the price…

[silver_tt]

I know oil is through the roof. But, ya, buy 5 quarts from FCP Euro for $100 total and then use their lifetime replacement and never pay for oil again except shipping:
https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/por...cing-oil-18406

Also worth pointing out that IMHO you have to be mindful when mixing or switching oils. For example it is not you but I see people that burn oil doing top-ups with different brands than what they filled with (and almost always poor quality oil), which will accelerate their consumption. When you mix oils or even switch to a different oil altogether there is a period of cross contamination that will take ~2-3 OCIs to stabilize and wind down. For this reason my UOAs improved significantly from when I first switched. Depending on which oils you are mixing, the additive packages in some oils will clash more than others. Either way, something to keep in mind that IMHO when you switch to an oil it makes sense to pick the best one and stick with it.

[ps2cho]

I know oil is through the roof. But, ya, buy 5 quarts from FCP Euro for $100 total and then use their lifetime replacement and never pay for oil again except shipping:
https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/por...cing-oil-18406

Also worth pointing out that IMHO you have to be mindful when mixing or switching oils. For example it is not you but I see people that burn oil doing top-ups with different brands than what they filled with (and almost always poor quality oil), which will accelerate their consumption. When you mix oils or even switch to a different oil altogether there is a period of cross contamination that will take ~2-3 OCIs to stabilize and wind down. For this reason my UOAs improved significantly from when I first switched. Depending on which oils you are mixing, the additive packages in some oils will clash more than others. Either way, something to keep in mind that IMHO when you switch to an oil it makes sense to pick the best one and stick with it.

Ethically I dont really support doing oil returns with FCP, its scummy. Yeah they have lifetime warranty and they say you can use it for engine oil, but IMO its stupid. Oil is a consumable, its not exactly the same as a lifetime part like a bushing. They are a decent company which I'd prefer they stick around than use the oil/fluid warranty. Won't really argue more on this.
Maybe I'll look into PP Euro or Castrol Edge Euro and see how they hold up compared to M1.

[Smac770]

There's no way that's operating legit for consumables. I don't know how they are working it on the backend, but there has to be something under the table going on. I like them and use them, but I don't buy anything from them that could be "recycled" from their lifetime "warranty".

[silver_tt]

I'm not sure why you think it's scummy. They fully know what they are doing, this is not a loophole if that's what you are implying? They have a whole section on their website and Youtube video about how to do it:
https://help.fcpeuro.com/hc/en-us/ar...-I-return-oil-

It seems like you don't understand how FCP's business model works but I digress as I was simply answering your question, "Is there another alternative that’s not $15-18/qt?".

Don't know why it matters but I have never actually purchased oil from FCP Euro. I purchased about 5 years supply of DI40 over the last several years at $8-10/quart when Advance Auto Parts was selling it and you could use coupons. They have since discontinued allowing coupons on it but I also don't consider myself "scummy" for using the coupons during the two years they allowed it. There was never even the slightest bit of shadiness about what I was doing.

[silver_tt]

There's no way that's operating legit for consumables. I don't know how they are working it on the backend, but there has to be something under the table going on. I like them and use them, but I don't buy anything from them that could be "recycled" from their lifetime "warranty".

If it's not legit why do they have this link on this website?

https://help.fcpeuro.com/hc/en-us/ar...-I-return-oil-

They even address the situation for burners:

https://help.fcpeuro.com/hc/en-us/ar...r-all-the-oil-

I really don't know what you guys are talking about on this one........ smac usually I am with you buddy

[Smac770]

Coupons are not anything the same as "free for life". If the return is for partial discount, ie, similar to doing a core return, ok. But their wording is misleading if that's the case.

[silver_tt]

We can agree to disagree on this one. It seems you are saying that to buy oil from FCP, use it, and then return to FCP under the lifetime warranty is not ethical or otherwise not kosher. It says right on their website how to do it. Many people in the Porsche community have been doing this for a long time (thus probably why FCP falsely calls it Porsche DI40). I honestly don't understand why you are so bothered by that or find it misleading or otherwise not plain vanilla. Sure it is a cool program, but their losses are "priced in". I see it's now $20/quart from them and I recall not long ago (last year or so) it was more like $15/quart from them. If they are losing money they will adjust their price accordingly but let's leave it to them to run their own business.......

[Smac770]

"is not ethical or otherwise not kosher", I assume you're talking to ps2cho. Because at no time did I use any such words regarding buyers or ethics. Whatever is going on there at FCP, what I did say is I don't trust it, so I don't use it. I don't care one way or the other about people who use it. It would be really easy to call the oil out by just sending it in for testing, so one would imagine that would have happened long ago if something was up with the product. I don't use Liqui Moly anyway.

No one should be buying individual quarts for oil changes. Their oil change kit using 5qt Liqui Moly and an oil filter is around $60. So it cost them $X to obtain those products, handle those products, ship those products to you. For that, you gave them $60, which is some amount above X, one would hope. Then 4 months later, I'm supposed to be able to buy another one for $60, take the old oil and filter and ship it back, then they give me $60 back? So if I did this 10 years ago, I'd be out $60 and 30x return shipping costs. FCP would be out 120 quarts of oil and 24 oil filters at a cost of 24*$X, for $60 revenue? Maybe it adds up in some accounting math way, but it adds up to negative income to me.