Power upgrade 1.8t

[bajo_01]

I am planning on going up with power on my b5,fmic injectors and exhaust,so my question is what blow off valve do I need for 250-ish hp or should I get better diverter valve

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[HibiscusB5_A4]

I would stick with a diverter valve unless you are going with a BT(Big Turbo) application with an external wastgate in which I would reccomend Tial. These cars were not designed for the use of a "blow off valve" they were intended to use a bypass "diverter" valve and the ECU will just see a blow-off valve as a big vacuum leak. Forge 008 or 007 valves are a great option with different interchangeable spring rates for different psi goals.

There are countless threads where people have discussed this very exact topic.

[bajo_01]

I would stick with a diverter valve unless you are going with a BT(Big Turbo) application with an external wastgate in which I would reccomend Tial. These cars were not designed for the use of a "blow off valve" they were intended to use a bypass "diverter" valve and the ECU will just see a blow-off valve as a big vacuum leak. Forge 008 or 007 valves are a great option with different interchangeable spring rates for different psi goals.

There are countless threads where people have discussed this very exact topic.

Plan is to buy k04 turbo and make a hybrid of it,not going to use full potential because my engine code can go only to 250hp without opening it,do you have any recommendation for diverter valve if change is needed

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[Blazius]

First of all.. Compression drop if you wanna make decent power on pump fuel, unless you got WMI, even then...

I'd avoid the K04 line , because you will want more, and you need to change the whole setup then.

Stick with diverter valve unless you want the car run like shit, stock ECU requires it. A 710P will be fine , Forge piston DV's are hit and miss.

Injectors, intercooler etc all auxiliary items and needed.

[Blazius]

So after talking with OP in PM's here is some general information for people:

First of all if you wanna make some serious power on the 1.8T or 2.7T on PUMP fuel you NEED to drop compression. Why? Because the 150hp/180hp etc 1.8T come with ridicolously high compression for a turbo port injected motor at 9.5. It is done because of emissions and the original design of the engine, with such minor boost 0.6/0.8 bar it can be done to get decent efficiency.

However as you start chasing power you need to increase boost among things, and simpley 9.5 CR is not doable to run the engine optimally. It will run and can be done but its not optimal or any good, the only reason these engines survive a long time even with non favourable conditions is because its made well and specially the ECU has good safety features that will save the block in the background sometimes without major indication towards the driver.

It is physics, even VAG did this by dropping CR to 9 only on 225 and 240 HP, imagine above 300 or 400 or 500.
So on pump fuel drop CR to 8.5 or 8 even, there are gaskets you can buy from Germany if you wish for around 100-120 $. Got one myself even.
Dropping the CR to 8.5 you loose 4% of mechanical compression but your dynamic compression will be much higher netting higher power and torque.

Another thing avoid K03 BASED hybrids at all COSTS, the K03 internals are not made to handle the bigger wheels or anything they put on them, it is simply unsafe,similar thing happens with the IHI hybrids on the later engines but thats another story :) . K04 original core hybrids are a bit better, but personally I think they are a waste of time and money, UNLESS your goal requires them.

So most important: You need a goal/plan from the start:
- What is the target power goal, what type of fuel?
- Budget?
- Regarding turbo selection, will the car be tracked(is transient response needed - ball bearing turbos) or not?
- Engine bay setup / restraints: Is external wastegate needed or not, is space available.
- Any "laws" that you might need to take into consideration? also can affect the planned setup.

So try to answer this and you will get much more concrete info on how to proceed.

[B5carl]

My plan is to make 500whp+ on 9.5:1 JE Pistons eventually with W/M, AEB cylinder head, 93, and don't plan on exceeding 30psi. I keep seeing people talk about how they wish they didn't drop compression to 8.5:1...

[bajo_01]

So after talking with OP in PM's here is some general information for people:

First of all if you wanna make some serious power on the 1.8T or 2.7T on PUMP fuel you NEED to drop compression. Why? Because the 150hp/180hp etc 1.8T come with ridicolously high compression for a turbo port injected motor at 9.5. It is done because of emissions and the original design of the engine, with such minor boost 0.6/0.8 bar it can be done to get decent efficiency.

However as you start chasing power you need to increase boost among things, and simpley 9.5 CR is not doable for run the engine optimally. It will run and can be done but its not optimal or any good, the only reason these engines survive a long time even with non favourable conditions is because its made well and specially the ECU has good safety features that will save the block in the background sometimes without major indication towards the driver.

It is physics, even VAG did this by dropping CR to 9 only on 225 and 240 HP, imagine above 300 or 400 or 500.
So on pump fuel drop CR to 8.5 or 8 even, there are gaskets you can buy from Germany if you wish for around 100-120 $. Got one myself even.
Dropping the CR to 8.5 you loose 4% of mechanical compression but your dynamic compression will be much higher netting higher power and torque.

Another thing avoid K03 BASED hybrids at all COSTS, the K03 internals are not made to handle the bigger wheels or anything they put on them, it is simply unsafe,similar thing happens with the IHI hybrids on the later engines but thats another story :) . K04 original core hybrids are a bit better, but personally I think they are a waste of time and money, UNLESS your goal requires them.

So most important: You need a goal/plan from the start:
- What is the target power goal, what type of fuel?
- Budget?
- Regarding turbo selection, will the car be tracked(is transient response needed - ball bearing turbos) or not?
- Engine bay setup / restraints: Is external wastegate needed or not, is space available.
- Any "laws" that you might need to take into consideration? also can affect the planned setup.

So try to answer this and you will get much more concrete info on how to proceed.

Current power goal is 300hp maybe in future I will go above that.Budget 3000euros.Car will be used as weekend car probably,so idk if I need dual ball bearing turbo or external wastegate.Only problem is exhaust loudnes in db,but I can pass the registration with that.I would stay on fuel pump 98 ron or 100 ron fuel.

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[QuattroBucc]

From personal experience for a car used on the road also I wouldn't recommend external wastegate unless its re-routed back into the Downpipe, its just way way too loud to do any pulls on street or HWY without drawing all attention towards your car

[Blazius]

My plan is to make 500whp+ on 9.5:1 JE Pistons eventually with W/M, AEB cylinder head, 93, and don't plan on exceeding 30psi. I keep seeing people talk about how they wish they didn't drop compression to 8.5:1...

Anything above 10PSI is ridicolous on pump fuel really on these cars... but its not just boost, its total combustion chamber pressure obviously.

Absolutely nothing will happen if you drop compression to 8.5 or 8 , you wont feel the effects of it on street until you start going below 8. Like I said 9.5 to 8.5 is a 3.x thermal efficiency loss. I forgot to mention, there is static compression which is what CR refers to and there is dynamic compression which is influenced by many things.
If TECHNICALLY you were to drop compression to 8.5 and change nothing you would get 4% loss obviously but you dont, because you can actually start running the engine how its supposed to run close to MBT(fyi the MBT map from Bosch on these cars were made on 120RON fuel you aint ever getting close on 9.5).

Like I said. VAG dropped compression to 9 just with a tiny 400 mbar~ boost increase and slightly bigger turbo because it was needed to run the engine optimally for thousands and thousands of miles, you think they wouldve done that if it wasnt absolutely needed specially when emissions were the goal?

But lemme give you another example outside of VAG and FSI injection(where you can run higher / 1.8T 20V stock levels of CR due to direct injection) motor. BMW M series. The M series motor(S58) dropped CR from 10.2 to 9.3 to make the power reliably.

TLDR: Pump fuel car = drop compression

Those people have no idea what they are talking about mechanically or physically, and possibly whatever they "felt" was down to shit calibration of said modifications.

[B5carl]

Anything above 10PSI is ridicolous on pump fuel really on these cars... but its not just boost, its total combustion chamber pressure obviously.

Absolutely nothing will happen if you drop compression to 8.5 or 8 , you wont feel the effects of it on street until you start going below 8. Like I said 9.5 to 8.5 is a 3.x thermal efficiency loss. I forgot to mention, there is static compression which is what CR refers to and there is dynamic compression which is influenced by many things.
If TECHNICALLY you were to drop compression to 8.5 and change nothing you would get 4% loss obviously but you dont, because you can actually start running the engine how its supposed to run close to MBT(fyi the MBT map from Bosch on these cars were made on 120RON fuel you aint ever getting close on 9.5).

Like I said. VAG dropped compression to 9 just with a tiny 400 mbar~ boost increase and slightly bigger turbo because it was needed to run the engine optimally for thousands and thousands of miles, you think they wouldve done that if it wasnt absolutely needed specially when emissions were the goal?

But lemme give you another example outside of VAG and FSI injection(where you can run higher / 1.8T 20V stock levels of CR due to direct injection) motor. BMW M series. The M series motor(S58) dropped CR from 10.2 to 9.3 to make the power reliably.

TLDR: Pump fuel car = drop compression

Those people have no idea what they are talking about mechanically or physically, and possibly whatever they "felt" was down to shit calibration of said modifications.

Not saying your wrong but doing this because I plan on using W/M eventually after I figure out a good fail safe system for it. Not many people have had issues with high compression though. I'd like to see an example of something not being able to make 500whp on pump gas and stock compression as long and tuning is precise.

I know the stock Evo comes with 8:1 or something like that since the stock motor can make around 500whp

[Blazius]

You either believe me and physics or you dont and you do your own research if you wish.. but it how it is.

I guarantee you if you were to put a car with 500hp on pump fuel on 9,5 against a 8.5 car the 8.5 car would win anytime because of the increased timing and volumetric efficiency, you make more than what you lose with static compression.
Most important thing people forget that is that fuels KNOCK, there is no perfect fuel. Why isnt everyone running diesel like compression in a gas engine ? its impossible bc of the knock tendency, if there was(perfect fuel) everyone would be running perfect setups. It should be enough to believe VAG engineers right? they just mightve known what they were doing :D.

30psi on 9.5 CR is something like 25:1 EFFECTIVE CR, that is just ridicolous.

[B5carl]

You either believe me and physics or you dont and you do your own research if you wish.. but it how it is.

I guarantee you if you were to put a car with 500hp on pump fuel on 9,5 against a 8.5 car the 8.5 car would win anytime because of the increased timing and volumetric efficiency, you make more than what you lose with static compression.
Most important thing people forget that is that fuels KNOCK, there is no perfect fuel. Why isnt everyone running diesel like compression in a gas engine ? its impossible bc of the knock tendency, if there was(perfect fuel) everyone would be running perfect setups. It should be enough to believe VAG engineers right? they just mightve known what they were doing :D.

30psi on 9.5 CR is something like 25:1 EFFECTIVE CR, that is just ridicolous.

Again, not saying your wrong but why would JE make 9.5:1 stroker pistons off the shelf for the 1.8t since there isn't much of an option unless you talk to a JE dealer for a custom compression. Either way I think I'll be good. I already bought these and not trying to sell unless I decide to do a 2.1L

[Blazius]

Because you can run that compression with race fuel or e85 not pump fuel. The manufacturers will make whatever people want, I could go custom order 12:1CR pistons or whatever the block heigh and head design allows if I want.

You can get compression dropping modified elring headgasket for 120$ shipped to the US... Pistons aint the only way to drop compression.

[B5carl]

Because you can run that compression with race fuel or e85 not pump fuel. The manufacturers will make whatever people want, I could go custom order 12:1CR pistons or whatever the block heigh and head design allows if I want.

You can get compression dropping modified elring headgasket for 120$ shipped to the US... Pistons aint the only way to drop compression.

I bought some supertech 83mm head gaskets.. hard to keep trying to sell stuff after I change my mind. Trying to do all of this once.

[QuattroBucc]

You're fine with your CR because you said you're gonna run e85, Also to lower CR it a small amount(not really sure if it'd lower it significantly enough like .5) you could have your heads combustion chamber ported/polished to get all the casting imperfections/hotspots out, I've read from multiple trusted head porters that polishing the combustion chamber so its fully smooth down to 1000-2000 grit with no hotspots can help you run up to 3-4* more timing, and with the increased volume it would lower your compression ratio- not sure how much though maybe blazius can add his 2 cents to how much port/polishing combustion chamber would lower CR. This also unshrouds the valves and Improves the heads flow and makes the step from the valve seat into combustion chamber a smoother transition which are all good bonuses

[B5carl]

You're fine with your CR because you said you're gonna run e85, Also to lower CR it a small amount(not really sure if it'd lower it significantly enough like .5) you could have your heads combustion chamber ported/polished to get all the casting imperfections/hotspots out, I've read from multiple trusted head porters that polishing the combustion chamber so its fully smooth down to 1000-2000 grit with no hotspots can help you run up to 3-4* more timing, and with the increased volume it would lower your compression ratio- not sure how much though maybe blazius can add his 2 cents to how much port/polishing combustion chamber would lower CR

I'm actually not going to use e85 anymore because it's hard to get in my location. One of my friends runs e85 but he has to go wayyy to far to get it. It's not worth it anymore.

People claim to have no issues with stock compression so I'll just stick to what I have but I doubt i will have trouble making 500whp. A thicker gasket will probably be the cheapest route at this point.

[QuattroBucc]

I'm actually not going to use e85 anymore because it's hard to get in my location. One of my friends runs e85 but he has to go wayyy to far to get it. It's not worth it anymore.

People claim to have no issues with stock compression so I'll just stick to what I have but I doubt i will have trouble making 500whp. A thicker gasket will probably be the cheapest route at this point.

maybe you could get an e30 tune and mix it to make it last longer between trips, I have a friend with a mazda speed 6 that does that and the e30 tune helps him make another 50wheel. but Yeah he has those Big racing gas tanks so he fills them all up and has enough for a month or so

[B5carl]

maybe you could get an e30 tune and mix it to make it last longer between trips, I have a friend with a mazda speed 6 that does that and the e30 tune helps him make another 50wheel. but Yeah he has those Big racing gas tanks so he fills them all up and has enough for a month or so

Water methanol will be what I'm aiming to do because I still might want to daily it. And I'd rather not have to do all that lol

[Blazius]

You're fine with your CR because you said you're gonna run e85, Also to lower CR it a small amount(not really sure if it'd lower it significantly enough like .5) you could have your heads combustion chamber ported/polished to get all the casting imperfections/hotspots out, I've read from multiple trusted head porters that polishing the combustion chamber so its fully smooth down to 1000-2000 grit with no hotspots can help you run up to 3-4* more timing, and with the increased volume it would lower your compression ratio- not sure how much though maybe blazius can add his 2 cents to how much port/polishing combustion chamber would lower CR. This also unshrouds the valves and Improves the heads flow and makes the step from the valve seat into combustion chamber a smoother transition which are all good bonuses

Minimally you are talking about thousands when polishing that was likely going to "away" in zero total when you deck the head for example., this gasket is 2.5mm thick to drop CR by one point.

People claim loads of stuff, yes, it will run blabla, but like I said why not make the best you can make it , because someone with a proper build even similar category will beat yours just because you didnt wanna do research or listen to people. Running less than 10 degrees at peak torque on 1.8T is bad, and under 20 at high rpm (6k) same thing. Gotta dump fuel just to be able to not burn the car down on highway run etc. etc. Anyway.. or do you want me to show you what 0.7-1 bar looks like on 95ron on 10.x CR and like 10 AFR, let me tell you its not pretty.

Regardless if you stick to stock compression I would like to see your timing graph and AFR at 30 psi when its done :)

[bajo_01]

@Blazius did you make a research about parts about mine future build,no rush just asking..

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[Blazius]

@Blazius did you make a research about parts about mine future build,no rush just asking..

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Well.

With your budget I would definitely focus on building the car instead of bolt ons.

If you decide to go for a bolt on, you can go for an orignal BW K04 upgrade or some of the "K04" hybrids but I do not recommend them for multiple reasons, one mentioned above, 2. as you start going above 250 hp(and decent torque) there is a very high chance you will bend rods with these turbos. TTE280 would be one option but its 1000 euros(if you can send in old unit) alone for 280hp or so, you tell me if that is worth it for you.

For original turbo upgrade from BW refer to this




Now the other option is to build it now and worry about power level later on:
Compression dropping headgasket/pistons to 8.5CR atleast.
H-beam rods , maxspeeding or any other you can find would be fine
A T3 manifold at the very least , cast log will serve you well, better choice would be a twinscroll built one but IMO they cost way too much to justify it.
If you planned to stay below 400-450 you can avoid touching the head, apart from maintenance, if you dont drop CR you will run high EGT's = risk dropping an exhaust valve, Supertech stainless is one budget option for good(500+) power goals. Rev above 7k ? = springs upgrade

Now as for turbo, mentioned you would be better off getting a T3 manifold atleast because it gives you many choices. I would probably recommend a BW S200SXE for you, could easily do 350-650 HP depending on your goal.

With both paths would defo recommend running an FMIC a common bar and plate one found everywhere will serve you well too. Along with that you will need the supporting upgrades such as injectors (in both cases), fuel pump if higher power goal etc.
Also you'd need to find yourself a good tuner who knows what hes doing with these cars, if one exists over there :)

Whatever you decide, if you want more details and/or help , let me know and we can go deeper.
Cheers.

[bajo_01]

Well.

With your budget I would definitely focus on building the car instead of bolt ons.

If you decide to go for a bolt on, you can go for an orignal BW K04 upgrade or some of the "K04" hybrids but I do not recommend them for multiple reasons, one mentioned above, 2. as you start going above 250 hp(and decent torque) there is a very high chance you will bend rods with these turbos. TTE280 would be one option but its 1000 euros(if you can send in old unit) alone for 280hp or so, you tell me if that is worth it for you.

For original turbo upgrade from BW refer to this




Now the other option is to build it now and worry about power level later on:
Compression dropping headgasket/pistons to 8.5CR atleast.
H-beam rods , maxspeeding or any other you can find would be fine
A T3 manifold at the very least , cast log will serve you well, better choice would be a twinscroll built one but IMO they cost way too much to justify it.
If you planned to stay below 400-450 you can avoid touching the head, apart from maintenance, if you dont drop CR you will run high EGT's = risk dropping an exhaust valve, Supertech stainless is one budget option for good(500+) power goals. Rev above 7k ? = springs upgrade

Now as for turbo, mentioned you would be better off getting a T3 manifold atleast because it gives you many choices. I would probably recommend a BW S200SXE for you, could easily do 350-650 HP depending on your goal.

With both paths would defo recommend running an FMIC a common bar and plate one found everywhere will serve you well too. Along with that you will need the supporting upgrades such as injectors (in both cases), fuel pump if higher power goal etc.
Also you'd need to find yourself a good tuner who knows what hes doing with these cars, if one exists over there :)

Whatever you decide, if you want more details and/or help , let me know and we can go deeper.
Cheers.

Tte280 is not worth for me,I want a turbo that can handle that 250-ish hp but also to have room for more hp so your suggestion for BW s200x is I think fine?Supertech intake valves would they be okay for future upgrades?I want revs above 7k rpm.IE H beam rods(rifle drilled) should be fine for future upgrades?They also have option for mahle race bearings included with aditional price...You didn't mention nothing about external wastegate would it be needed.FMIC will be ordered and mounted at the end of this summer.Tell me more about what injectors cc would I be running and what kind of headgasket would it be used for compresion drop..You can text me here or in PM your choice

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[Blazius]

Tte280 is not worth for me,I want a turbo that can handle that 250-ish hp but also to have room for more hp so your suggestion for BW s200x is I think fine?Supertech intake valves would they be okay for future upgrades?I want revs above 7k rpm.IE H beam rods(rifle drilled) should be fine for future upgrades?They also have option for mahle race bearings included with aditional price...You didn't mention nothing about external wastegate would it be needed.FMIC will be ordered and mounted at the end of this summer.Tell me more about what injectors cc would I be running and what kind of headgasket would it be used for compresion drop..You can text me here or in PM your choice

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So if you wanna that route you need to build the engine yes.

Given that you are from Europe IE rods are a no go, unless you wanna pay premium. Get a set of FCP engineering, MAXspeeding, or etc. Personally I have FCP.
You dont ever need to upgrade intake valves in a 20V, exhaust valves yes.

The S200SXE series require an external wastegate yes so you'd need a manifold with hole for one. Or if not you can go for an internally wastegated if you want to ? Holsets come into mind and it would certainly bring the costs down while performing very well still, or in that case you can go for an EFR series those come with integrated DV and WG, top of the line stuff.

For injectors I would buy once, same Bosch EV14 1000cc's, will be good for whatever.

[bajo_01]

So if you wanna that route you need to build the engine yes.

Given that you are from Europe IE rods are a no go, unless you wanna pay premium. Get a set of FCP engineering, MAXspeeding, or etc. Personally I have FCP.
You dont ever need to upgrade intake valves in a 20V, exhaust valves yes.

The S200SXE series require an external wastegate yes so you'd need a manifold with hole for one. Or if not you can go for an internally wastegated if you want to ? Holsets come into mind and it would certainly bring the costs down while performing very well still, or in that case you can go for an EFR series those come with integrated DV and WG, top of the line stuff.

For injectors I would buy once, same Bosch EV14 1000cc's, will be good for whatever.

FCP rods seem a fair price of 439 euros and beiing rated at 600hp for that price.What about pistons and rings what should I get?If I would stay to 7k rpms I don't need springs upgrade?BW s200xe is fine for me for price of 700 euros(I am not sending my old turbo for it?).About external wastegate you mentioned I would need T3 exhaust manifold for BW S200XE so is there an manifold with integrated wastegate or some easier way to mount it?

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[B5carl]

Now I'm really debating getting 8.5:1 JE Pistons but nobody offers them. I can contact ringer racing but no guaranteed that I can get them if I sell my current JE Pistons.

I still haven't heard about anyone having problems with 9.5:1. I'm eventually going to run a W/M system but I really like the idea of high comp, 93 for 500whp on lowish boost pressure. I already have 2 supertech 83mm custom gaskets so I'm just loosing money from constantly changing my mind.

People are also claiming better spool with 8.5 but I keep seeing mixed options. With a big intake manifold and big cams it's already going to lack alot of low end.

Was also reading about dynamic compression ratio(Actual) when upgrading to larger cams and it's saying that they will lower actually compression ratio. In my case if I use the Brain Crower 272 street/strip at my altitude in Boston at say 25psi(estimate) for 500whp after calculating comes out to 8.96:1 which should be good. CR doesn't seem to change from 20-25psi. And lower would obviously be better and more efficient.

[Blazius]

Now I'm really debating getting 8.5:1 JE Pistons but nobody offers them. I can contact ringer racing but no guaranteed that I can get them if I sell my current JE Pistons.

I still haven't heard about anyone having problems with 9.5:1. I'm eventually going to run a W/M system but I really like the idea of high comp, 93 for 500whp on lowish boost pressure. I already have 2 supertech 83mm custom gaskets so I'm just loosing money from constantly changing my mind.

People are also claiming better spool with 8.5 but I keep seeing mixed options. With a big intake manifold and big cams it's already going to lack alot of low end.

Was also reading about dynamic compression ratio(Actual) when upgrading to larger cams and it's saying that they will lower actually compression ratio. In my case if I use the Brain Crower 272 street/strip at my altitude in Boston at say 25psi(estimate) for 500whp after calculating comes out to 8.96:1 which should be good. CR doesn't seem to change from 20-25psi. And lower would obviously be better and more efficient.

W/M will help a decent amount however.. remember you cannot get to a certain power without boost, and its always going to be high boost scenarios because we wanna keep some lowend too - this is part of turbo matching process, so there is no such thing as saying you want 600BHP with 10PSI, it will simply not happen with an EFR7670.

Yes better spool is achievable and possible with lower compression ratio on a turbo engine. Why? Because remember spool is exhaust gas flow right simplified, higher rpm, higher flow, what actually rotates the crank, its torque. With lower compression ratio you can run much more optimal angles which in turn produces more torque = faster RPM gain. The simple fact is that on a stock 1.8T on pump gas anytime you step on the gas you are severly knock limited.

DCR is affected by cams yes, your ECR(effective compression ratio) changes with boost. The 150hp 1.8T wasnt designed for massive power , its why such high compression was used for minor boost. As time went on, they even started cheaping out more things and going more eco friendly too. On models where power was the goal such as 225 , they actually made the necessary changes to achieve said power, again they wouldnt have sacrificied anything in said times if it wasnt necessary to hit the goals.

[Blazius]

FCP rods seem a fair price of 439 euros and beiing rated at 600hp for that price.What about pistons and rings what should I get?If I would stay to 7k rpms I don't need springs upgrade?BW s200xe is fine for me for price of 700 euros(I am not sending my old turbo for it?).About external wastegate you mentioned I would need T3 exhaust manifold for BW S200XE so is there an manifold with integrated wastegate or some easier way to mount it?

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You should look around for best deals, you dont have to specifically get FCP rods, and maybe you can find em local or on other site than theirs for a better price.
7000 RPM is fine for stock springs yes, would not go much above that. People pushed it to 7200 and above but that is just playing with fire.

Yes 700 euros sounds right for an 200SXE but actually remember that exhaust housing on them is actually a T4 bolt pattern with T3 opening. Regardless if you get a T3 manifold, you need a T3-T4 adapter. You should be able to find manifolds with external wastegates, have to look around.

If you wanna opt for internal wastegate for any reason Holset turbos come into to play, there price vs perfomance is unbeatable, and it might fit your scenario and goals without going over the budget limit.

[B5carl]

W/M will help a decent amount however.. remember you cannot get to a certain power without boost, and its always going to be high boost scenarios because we wanna keep some lowend too - this is part of turbo matching process, so there is no such thing as saying you want 600BHP with 10PSI, it will simply not happen with an EFR7670.

Yes better spool is achievable and possible with lower compression ratio on a turbo engine. Why? Because remember spool is exhaust gas flow right simplified, higher rpm, higher flow, what actually rotates the crank, its torque. With lower compression ratio you can run much more optimal angles which in turn produces more torque = faster RPM gain. The simple fact is that on a stock 1.8T on pump gas anytime you step on the gas you are severly knock limited.

DCR is affected by cams yes, your ECR(effective compression ratio) changes with boost. The 150hp 1.8T wasnt designed for massive power , its why such high compression was used for minor boost. As time went on, they even started cheaping out more things and going more eco friendly too. On models where power was the goal such as 225 , they actually made the necessary changes to achieve said power, again they wouldnt have sacrificied anything in said times if it wasnt necessary to hit the goals.

I know Im gonna need like 30psi for the 7670. There's a guy in the B6 section that has basically my identical setup but with the 7064 and he says he's making 480-500whp at 35psi. But he also has the IECVA1, which I might get if they are in stock but can't find a cam card for them. If I get 8.5:1 then I'll be at 8:1 which I think is too low for the street but easier to tune.

That guy bill wall on YouTube says he wishes he kept it at 9.5 and I tried to explained that his comp is lower than 8.5 is pretty low but he's making 600whp.

I'm done in this guy's thread. My apologies, I'm going to start my build thread real soon.

[bajo_01]

You should look around for best deals, you dont have to specifically get FCP rods, and maybe you can find em local or on other site than theirs for a better price.
7000 RPM is fine for stock springs yes, would not go much above that. People pushed it to 7200 and above but that is just playing with fire.

Yes 700 euros sounds right for an 200SXE but actually remember that exhaust housing on them is actually a T4 bolt pattern with T3 opening. Regardless if you get a T3 manifold, you need a T3-T4 adapter. You should be able to find manifolds with external wastegates, have to look around.

If you wanna opt for internal wastegate for any reason Holset turbos come into to play, there price vs perfomance is unbeatable, and it might fit your scenario and goals without going over the budget limit.

There are manifolds with external wastegate,but they do not ship to my country.Pistons do not need upgrade?What kind of headgasket should I use to drop compresion,Victor Reinz?If you have IG could you drop it here to see your project car?

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[B5carl]

Last note. Cat 3658 have a DCR of 8.68:1 with an ABDC of 43° when using 9.5 pistons, which is very close to 8.5:1 so with these I can run 30psi without worrying about knock on 93. Hopefully will be able to clear 500whp.

I didn't realize how much a set of cams can change actual compression ratio so maybe that's another reason why JE made 9.5:1 stroker pistons readily available. 8.5:1 with cams would seem to be a bad idea and rob alot of low end power if you dont understand DCR when planning a build.

I figured it would be good info for this guy's thread.

[Blazius]

Again tho, remember 8.5 Static compression is not 8.5 DCR. 8.6 DCR is still very high for pump fuel, specially at 30 psi lol. Also I am not sure how exactly you got 8.6 DCR because, because it would be a lil higher on estimate, since JE didnt give any piston information online. your effective dynamic compression ratio (DCR+boost) will be like 20+ which is very high ofcourse and static would be like 25... I wouldnt go above 8DCR on pump fuel and that power goal.

I can show you what happens on an 93 octane with stock compression ratio with an S200SXE (s257), which is exactly the same as a 7670, same compressor wheel, and 99% same turbine wheel at 21 PSI only. 6-8 degrees knock limited at 6k RPM , 11.5 AFR(already loosing power from optimal btw, the 1.8T makes best power at 12.2-12.4)
6-8 degrees at 6000 RPM is basically unacceptable, you are wasting huge amount of power and most of the combustion is happening when the exhaust is open = high EGTs , this is how you burn valves OR sparkplugs on a highway run.

@bajo

Hmm, in that case you can get just a manifold you can find that comes with a T3 flange wihtout ext wg port and get yourself a HX35 within certain specs. If not you will have to make a custom one or something.
Pistons are fine , no need to upgrade, but you might wanna do a full bearing and ring job on the engine before building it.
I dont really use insta or anything I dont really post pics of my car.

[B5carl]

I know 8.5 isn't the lowest compression ratio you can use but thats what most people resort to when they want to use a big turbo and use up most of its potential. And 500whp isn't even alot to ask for at 30psi on 93, it's just harder to tune if I understand this correctly. There are many different variations of setups with mild cams in the Evo community and they are able to make 500whp pretty easily. From my current knowledge its all a matter of getting the 1.8t to flow as well and as efficient as the 4G63T. Not much info in the 1.8t community unfortunately.

I got 8.6 using the ABDC from the catcam info card, and the basic 1.8t specs including 9.5 pistons to get the DCR of 8.6. so that's only if you use the 3658's and stock 9.5 CR so the DCR will vary depending on what set up you choose is what I'm trying to get at.

I think I understand what your saying about being knock limited. I just read about the VVT being able to adjust up to 22° so your telling me if I leave my cam gear at 0 degrees then ill only have 14° to 16°(6-8° limitation as you stated) of available timing that my VVT will allow me to adjust without hitting a wall? Some guy who built his A4 says that the ME7 has the capability to turn on and off VVT at certain times to allow for the max power at certain rev bands. Which I'm guessing will prevent irregularities like high EGTs. Not sure If I fully grasp what he was saying because I don't have any tuning experience.

[Darepoole]

Now I'm really debating getting 8.5:1 JE Pistons but nobody offers them. I can contact ringer racing but no guaranteed that I can get them if I sell my current JE Pistons.

I still haven't heard about anyone having problems with 9.5:1. I'm eventually going to run a W/M system but I really like the idea of high comp, 93 for 500whp on lowish boost pressure. I already have 2 supertech 83mm custom gaskets so I'm just loosing money from constantly changing my mind.

People are also claiming better spool with 8.5 but I keep seeing mixed options. With a big intake manifold and big cams it's already going to lack alot of low end.

Was also reading about dynamic compression ratio(Actual) when upgrading to larger cams and it's saying that they will lower actually compression ratio. In my case if I use the Brain Crower 272 street/strip at my altitude in Boston at say 25psi(estimate) for 500whp after calculating comes out to 8.96:1 which should be good. CR doesn't seem to change from 20-25psi. And lower would obviously be better and more efficient.

To piggyback off what you are saying sb parts direct doesn’t stock diamond pistons below either 9.3.1 or 9.1.1. There is pros and cons to both having 9.5.1 and 8.5.1 like people have already stated but IMO you’ll be fine. Make sure you are able to get someone to take the time to tune the car properly if you are running 9.5.1

[RENOxDECEPTION]

I'm getting ignition retard on 24psi w/ a k24 7400 turbo on 91 octane, stock CR. Not terrible, -3 degrees after I got it under control, but I'm also dropping the compression ratio to gain some extra headroom for timing advance.

I regret not dropping CR earlier, but luckily there are full point head spacers like Blazius mentioned that can drop it into the range I want, I actually picked up the exact same one he's got in his hand there.

Yes, it is more work to stay out of ignition retard on stock CR, but then you'll have self-retarded timing and you're not using the full potential of the setup imo. With lower CR, you can also advance timing out of boost to gain back some of the off boost peppiness.

Yes, you can adjust the point where the VVT tensioner kicks in, but the ecu will utilize two different timing tables (KFZW/KFZW2) and they have to be adjusted individually as well, and the timing and setpoint really should be done on a dyno to find the point where it provides the most benefit.

[B5carl]

To piggyback off what you are saying sb parts direct doesn’t stock diamond pistons below either 9.3.1 or 9.1.1. There is pros and cons to both having 9.5.1 and 8.5.1 like people have already stated but IMO you’ll be fine. Make sure you are able to get someone to take the time to tune the car properly if you are running 9.5.1

That's what I'm hoping. And the cams helping lower actual compression should help also. I'm my case if I use the 3658, BC272, IECVA1's etc I will be able to have an actual compression of anywhere from 8.69-8.98 from after doing the DCR calculations. Something I didn't understand until now.

[B5carl]

I'm getting ignition retard on 24psi w/ a k24 7400 turbo on 91 octane, stock CR. Not terrible, -3 degrees after I got it under control, but I'm also dropping the compression ratio to gain some extra headroom for timing advance.

I regret not dropping CR earlier, but luckily there are full point head spacers like Blazius mentioned that can drop it into the range I want, I actually picked up the exact same one he's got in his hand there.

Yes, it is more work to stay out of ignition retard on stock CR, but then you'll have self-retarded timing and you're not using the full potential of the setup imo. With lower CR, you can also advance timing out of boost to gain back some of the off boost peppiness.

Yes, you can adjust the point where the VVT tensioner kicks in, but the ecu will utilize two different timing tables (KFZW/KFZW2) and they have to be adjusted individually as well, and the timing and setpoint really should be done on a dyno to find the point where it provides the most benefit.

I see what your saying but are you using stock or upgraded cams?

[zandrew]

You should look around for best deals, you dont have to specifically get FCP rods, and maybe you can find em local or on other site than theirs for a better price.
7000 RPM is fine for stock springs yes, would not go much above that. People pushed it to 7200 and above but that is just playing with fire.

Yes 700 euros sounds right for an 200SXE but actually remember that exhaust housing on them is actually a T4 bolt pattern with T3 opening. Regardless if you get a T3 manifold, you need a T3-T4 adapter. You should be able to find manifolds with external wastegates, have to look around.

If you wanna opt for internal wastegate for any reason Holset turbos come into to play, there price vs perfomance is unbeatable, and it might fit your scenario and goals without going over the budget limit.

People looking for 250hp usually are looking for something that drives better as a daily driver. Your suggesting lower cr and s200 turbo? That would completely suck in bumper to bumper, around town, or any hilly type of drives. Those s200 spool very slow and taking cr away is only going to make it worse especially at this power level.

250hp could be done very easily on a stock block with very little work and be fun.

I would much rather have franken turbo setup making 250hp then a s200 setup making 350hp.

[Blazius]

People looking for 250hp usually are looking for something that drives better as a daily driver. Your suggesting lower cr and s200 turbo? That would completely suck in bumper to bumper, around town, or any hilly type of drives. Those s200 spool very slow and taking cr away is only going to make it worse especially at this power level.

250hp could be done very easily on a stock block with very little work and be fun.

I would much rather have franken turbo setup making 250hp then a s200 setup making 350hp.

Well I am not sure if you read his replies but hes not only looking for 250.. If a tte280 isnt worth it for him then nothing else will. This path is build once.

"Tte280 is not worth for me,I want a turbo that can handle that 250-ish hp but also to have room for more hp"

If you keep stock and hybrid parts later on you gonna have to change basically everything to get any higher, so you better make up your mind now, do you want sub 300 or not.

Also second the smaller the turbo and higher your power goals, the more likely you are to bend rods, which a franken WILL do on the 'eco' 06A rods(which btw OP didnt specify what engine/year he is working with so assume dbw)

[zandrew]

Yes but the suggested range on the s257 starts at 380hp (not to mention they love boost). It also has potential for more then a lot of parts on these cars can safely handle. 300hp is the safe limit on a stock block if tuned properly. The stock trans will do about 450hp if you are playing it safe. You need to build for the limits. It does not make sense to put a turbo on that you can make 600hp with as your going to suffer lag. If you are not willing to go the full length of a build then that should be considered.

The s200 7070 is the one that interests me.

I have seen bent rods on a lot of cars and it is more typical of people doing dumb shit then anything else. If you know the limits these motors will handle gt3071r on a stock block. I know this for a fact. I have over 30xxx miles on mine.

[Blazius]

Yes but the suggested range on the s257 starts at 380hp (not to mention they love boost). It also has potential for more then a lot of parts on these cars can safely handle. 300hp is the safe limit on a stock block if tuned properly. The stock trans will do about 450hp if you are playing it safe. You need to build for the limits. It does not make sense to put a turbo on that you can make 600hp with as your going to suffer lag. If you are not willing to go the full length of a build then that should be considered.

The s251 is the one that interests me.

I have seen bent rods on a lot of cars and it is more typical of people doing dumb shit then anything else. If you know the limits these motors will handle gt3071r on a stock block. I know this for a fact. I have over 30xxx miles on mine.

Well, no shit , he wants to build a proper car not a stock according to his replies. I know what the limits are of the 1.8T like the back of my hand, afterall what do I know I only turbocharged the NA one years ago and flashed 1.8T' over 200 times probably by now :)
The S200SXE either the 76mm or the smaller one is an amazing turbo and it performs extremly well so I dont know why you keep mentioning lag , its just like any big turbo you put on a coke bottle sized engine, combine that with someone who can actually tune and you'll be golden.

No not dumb shit, the 06A rods are cheese, the 058 are slightly thicker and better construction but do not approach the 300HP mark with either on a hybrid it will bend em.. Ofcourse you can run a gt3071 or 76 a lil bit higher due to the torque onset but it can still result in catastrophic damage.

The S251 is literally a worse S200SXE, afterall the reason for E was that they put the EFR wheels , which is miles ahead of the cast wheel on the S200SX series. If you want a 251 then get a SXE lolz. Also you seem to forget costs for him I could suggest much more suitable turbos for the lower power goal(sacrificing potential ofcourse) but they might not fall into total budget, and the fact that he might not even be able to get an externally gated manifold, which means Holset time.