Do you think the repair mechanic screwed up my intake manifold? 2011 B8 Audi S4

[coolarj10]

Dear all, I'm hoping someone may have experience with this and can chime in on what I should do here...

To summarize, this new mechanic I used eventually fixed my coolant leak after an incomplete job the first time. He replaced the water pump, thermostat, and a pipe. Afterwards, my check engine light turned on, and he told me it would turn off after driving 1,000 miles. After 1,000 miles, it was still on. He then said my car is generating codes P2005 and P2006 which according to him means "the intake manifold needs to be replaced". However, P2005 actually means "stuck open" and P2006 means "stuck closed" which seem contradictory to me. Other threads on Audizine have shown that incorrectly reassembling the engine can lead to the intake manifold getting stuck. The mechanic reopened the car and showed me my intake manifold flaps are stuck.

Is it possible it was the mechanic's fault? Is there a way to loosen them again, and how do I explain to him what the correct assembly procedure is (e.g. vacuum the flaps while assembling). I didn't have this issue prior to getting my coolant leak repaired.

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Full story:
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• Mid last year, my 2011 Audi S4 had a coolant leak. I don't recall seeing a check engine light, but received a "turn off engine and check coolant level" warning if the coolant level dropped way below the "MIN" level. Each time I would fill it to the MAX line with distilled water, it would go back down below MIN within a few days.
  

• Out of convenience, I took the car to a different mechanic than I'm used to. He was recommended by my relative because while he has poor communication skills, his previous work to keep my relative's 2001 Mercedes alive was acceptable, and his prices seemed on the lower end.

• The mechanic replaced the water pump and thermostat. Full invoice is here for reference. Very soon after we received the car back, the check engine light turned on. I had never seen that light come on before. I gave him back the car to inspect it, and a few days later he said everything is fine, and after driving around for me, the light had cleared.

• As I drove my car home, and within two minutes of driving, the check engine light turned on, and two minutes later the "turn off engine and check coolant level" red message popped up! I looked under my car, and sure enough I could see coolant dripping underneath the car. I gave him back my car, and he diagnosed it and realized there was a pipe near the water pump that he missed, and that needs replacing, too.

• He replaced the water pipe, and the coolant leak was gone. BUT, the check engine light remained.

• He told me that the check engine light should disappear automatically after driving 1,000 miles. I drove 1,000 miles, light was still on.

• Then he plugged into my car to check the error codes, and identified that the engine codes being generated were P2005 and P2006, which according to him meant "the intake manifold needs replacing." I did some research, and P2005 means "intake manifold is stuck open", and P2006 means "intake manifold is stuck closed." Those seem contradictory.

• Looking at other threads here on Audizine, it seems that incorrectly re-assembling the engine can result in the Intake Manifold getting stuck:
  Example 1: Intake manifold stuck after incorrect reassembly after thermostat/waterpump replacement
  Example 2: Intake manifold flaps stuck closed because the lips got pushed to the wrong side during reassembly
  Quote:

  What happened was when I removed the supercharger, I had started removing the fuel rail assembly to clean the valves. When doing so, without applying vacuum to the flap actuator the flaps popped up over the lip when they should be on the other side. I will post photos with my phone so you can see what I'm talking about here to help anyone in the future if this happens to them after removal of the supercharger.

• So, I told him that I think the intake manifold might have been jammed during reassembly of the car. My relative takes the car to him, the mechanic opens the car and these pics and videos were taken:

• The mechanic says that the 3 long screws besides each intake manifold ensure that the engine is aligned properly when putting it back together, and there's no way he could have installed it in a way that would cause the intake manifolds to be stuck. Then, they took a picture and a video showing that all 6 of the intake manifold flaps are jammed....
  
  
  Picture the mechanic sent me of the intake manifold: click here in case image isn't showing above directly embedded in the post
  Video the mechanic sent me of the intake manifold: https://www.dropbox.com/s/88quyyk8rh...stuck.mov?dl=0

To me this seems incredibly unbelievable that I didn't have this issue before and after the repair, I have a car with a check engine light and spontaneously an intake manifold issue. I brought up another thread I read where it mentions vacuum pressure should be applied to ensure the intake manifold flaps are in the correct orientation during installation...but he goes back to the video where he shows the flaps are stuck. So now he wants to charge me to replace both left and right intake manifolds...

Do you think this really is a coincidence and the wear and tear is there, or is there some sort of instruction I can give this mechanic as to the proper way to keep the intake manifold flaps loose and to re-assemble the car in a way that they don't get jammed?

Sorry for the long post...but if you're still reading this, all I can say is thank you!!! Any advice is appreciated!

[CardFan]

The mechanic says that the 3 long screws besides each intake manifold ensure that the engine is aligned properly when putting it back together, and there's no way he could have installed it in a way that would cause the intake manifolds to be stuck.

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Based on the above your mechanic does not know what he is doing. Those long screws have nothing to do with the position of the intake flaps during reassembly. It sounds like you are fighting an uphill battle to convince him otherwise, one that may not be worth it. I would consider finding someone more knowledgeable to work on your car. Good luck.

[a1dan_87]

He fucked it up. I recently did the job, and it's by no means difficult to do it right, but it's easy to do it wrong too. It's the tumble generator flaps between the supercharger and valves. Literally all you have to do during reassembly when you bolt them back down is hold them slightly open so they don't catch on the little lip.

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[Chris@EPL]

Either the vacuum hoses are switched or the flaps were not in the correct position when the manifold was reinstalled.

[a1dan_87]

https://youtu.be/c7C7OAul3yc

11:20 is EXACTLY what you need

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[coolarj10]

He fucked it up. I recently did the job, and it's by no means difficult to do it right, but it's easy to do it wrong too. It's the tumble generator flaps between the supercharger and valves. Literally all you have to do during reassembly when you bolt them back down is hold them slightly open so they don't catch on the little lip.

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Thank you so much for your replies, a1dan_87, CadFan, and Chris@EPL! I really appreciate the insight!

I know CardFan is right in that I should consider finding someone more knowledgeable to work on my car. I actually do have a reliable mechanic that I normally go to but a combination of his lack of availability, price, and the fact that I got really mentally fatigued after taking my car to 3 different places for a quote, I kind of gave in and went with this mechanic. I've learned my lesson, because the time and headache I would have saved for waiting a bit longer and paying a bit more would have greatly outweighed the situation I'm in now.

a1dan_87, that youtube video was EXTREMELY helpful because it helped me understand how the flap mechanism actually works and how it's supposed to get blocked by the shiny lip.

I would love to try to salvage the situation so I can get my car back without additional expense, so I'm wondering:
a1dan_87, in the video you shared, at the 11min30sec timestamp he dives into the intake manifold. If the flap (is that what is referred to as the "tumble generator flaps"?) has accidentally moved past the lip and is now stuck, what does one do to get it unstuck? That part wasn't clear to me from the video. Does one simply unscrew and lift the intake manifold, physically (with fingers) force the flap back down past the shiny lip, and then carefully reinstall the intake manifold?

Really appreciate all your help everyone!

[Surfer8210]

DO NOT let that individual touch your vehicle again.
Find an independent shop with experienced Audi techs.
Where are you located?


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[coolarj10]

DO NOT let that individual touch your vehicle again.
Find an independent shop with experienced Audi techs.
Where are you located?


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Thank you for the reply, I'm in East Bay California.

[Fresh.S4]

request a charge back from however you paid.

loosen the bolt on the intake flaps that you can pull up enough so that you can hold open the flaps so they are being help open by the metal flaps on the engine side. tighten everything back down. reinstall everything, clear codes.

profit.

[coolarj10]

Ah ok thank you for clarifying, what you mentioned helps me better understand the video a1dan_87 shared at the 12min05sec mark: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7C7OAul3yc#t=12m5sec

So in the video at 12min5s, he says "I'm going to try to lift it up slightly to be able to put [the flap] back in, but I have a feeling I'm going to have to take everything apart again."

He seems to be referring to the technique you mentioned, but if it doesn't work, is it just the intake manifold that has to be completely removed and put back on? Or is it a massive ordeal with many other things that have to be done?

Also, for future reference, for water pump and thermostat replacements, is a crane required to lift heavy parts? Because I'm a pretty handy guy and am comfortable working on parts if I learn how...I just don't have a crane. So if this is stuff I can do myself in the future, I don't mind...

[LYKUNO]

For reference, in the "Air Supply:" section of the 3.0 TFSI self-study program document on Page 28, covering the intake manifold flaps, is this important note: "When installing the intake manifold flap module, the intake manifold flaps must be moved into the "power" position (intake port open)."

The associated illustration shows the intake manifold flap module for the left cylinder bank and describes how the intake manifold flap control valve (N316) and vacuum cell are mounted and control the position of the flaps. The document further describes failure of the flap module, stating: "If N316 is not activated or faulty, no partial vacuum will be supplied. In this condition, the intake manifold flaps close the "power" port in the cylinder
head under the spring pressure produced by the vacuum cell, reducing engine output."

The following page (29) covers the Intake Manifold Runner Position saying:

Two sensors monitor the positions of the intake manifold flaps:
– Cylinder bank 1: Intake manifold runner position sensor G336
– Cylinder bank 2: Intake manifold runner position sensor 2 G512

The sensors are integrated directly in the vacuum cell flange. They are contactless incremental encoders and work on the Hall sender* principle. The sensor electronics generate a voltage signal, which is evaluated by the engine control module.

Signal utilization
The signal is used to monitor the position of the intake manifold flap and for diagnostic purposes (e.g. to check for wear etc.).

Effects of signal failure
The position of the intake manifold flap will no longer be correctly sensed. No diagnosis will be possible.
This component is subject to OBD; i.e. if it fails, the malfunction indicator lamp K83 (MIL) is activated. Loss of power can occur.

As to how one gets the flaps "unstuck", I'm sure that one of the many helpful folks who've been through the process of removing and replacing the supercharger will be able to jump in and describe the procedure to fix the problem in detail, and perhaps can point you to DIY videos of exactly how the flaps are restored to correct functionality. Okay all you experts, time to chime in!

Edit to add this video link to replacing the supercharger on a 3.0TFSI. The video is for an Audi C7 but its basically the same procedure. Scroll through to approximately 11 minutes into the video to the section on the flapper valves:

(Paths crossed while editing -- This is the same video the previous poster added! Oh well!

[Fresh.S4]

Ah ok thank you for clarifying, what you mentioned helps me better understand the video a1dan_87 shared at the 12min05sec mark: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7C7OAul3yc#t=12m5sec

So in the video at 12min5s, he says "I'm going to try to lift it up slightly to be able to put [the flap] back in, but I have a feeling I'm going to have to take everything apart again."

He seems to be referring to the technique you mentioned, but if it doesn't work, is it just the intake manifold that has to be completely removed and put back on? Or is it a massive ordeal with many other things that have to be done?

Also, for future reference, for water pump and thermostat replacements, is a crane required to lift heavy parts? Because I'm a pretty handy guy and am comfortable working on parts if I learn how...I just don't have a crane. So if this is stuff I can do myself in the future, I don't mind...

ignore that last part about needing to remove. you can totally just loosen the bolts, lift up on the manifold enough to press the flaps back and press back down into the correct position. for that reason alone, id request a charge back from said shop. you are now spending time to fix the problem that they created.

[coolarj10]

Wow thank you so much!! LYKUNO really appreciate that link to the self study program document - that is incredibly helpful!

And thank you Fresh.S4 for the clarification! ...and I really feel you on the chargeback...I have drained so much time and energy (and everyone's time and energy on this thread)...first priority is going to be to get my wonderful S4 back up and running, and then we'll see how to deal with the mechanic since he was recommended by a relative and I don't want to put a wrench in their relationship.

At this point, thanks to all of you, I think I have everything I need to address the problem with the mechanic, and if need be, have him put the engine back together as-is and take care of this myself or elsewhere.

I suppose the last wrench in this would be IF the vacuum cell happens to be malfunctioning, or if I am unable to recognize if he incorrectly screwed on the intake manifold sensor (though it was probably never removed), or if I am unable to recognize that the vacuum hoses are switched (as Chris@EPL mentioned).

But based on the chain of events, it seems like loosening the bolts, lifting the manifold, and pressing the flaps back down as Fresh.S4 said should most likely solve this.

Thank you! We'll see how it goes...🤞 *fingers crossed*

[EZRO]

If you don’t push the flaps out of the way when reinstalling the supercharger you’ll get that code 100% of the time. Don’t replace anything go somewhere else. Easy way to check is to try to move the arm in front with your finger, it should move with some resistance not be stuck. I circled the arm. IMG_8265.jpg


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[coolarj10]

If you don’t push the flaps out of the way when reinstalling the supercharger you’ll get that code 100% of the time. Don’t replace anything go somewhere else. Easy way to check is to try to move the arm in front with your finger, it should move with some resistance not be stuck. I circled the arm. IMG_8265.jpg


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Thank you for the explanation and picture! I'm going to head over to the shop today or tomorrow. The black arm in the picture you shared - is it possible to move that while the intake manifold is installed? Comparing that to the picture of my intake manifold already installed in the car, the arm looks pretty buried under the pipe.

[EZRO]

Yes you should be able to move it with everything installed. I believe it faces forward on one bank and back on the other.


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[coolarj10]

Quick question: we loosened the manifold and reseated it after pushing the flaps down AND THEY WORK!

Mechanic says he doesn’t want to tighten them all the way down and give me back my car unless he replaces the gaskets underneath because he is worried it could be a fire hazard.

He said he will replace the gaskets and re install the manifold with the technique I showed him.

I want to get my car out of here as soon as possible but also want to do the right thing.

[coolarj10]

Sorry for double posting, I was typing the above message while at the mechanic’s shop in case someone managed to reply really quickly haha.

I left his shop and can type this summary in peace:

All 6 intake manifold flaps were stuck when I inspected it.

I told him the plan: we’re going to loosen the bolts, lift it up just enough to let the flaps have room to be pushed down, and then tighten the manifold back down. So we did it on the left manifold, and now all 3 flaps are able to move freely exactly as everyone on this thread mentioned! Thank you everyone for your help!!

He said that he never touched the intake manifolds during the water pump and thermostat replacement, and had no reason to lift it up or remove it. (Is that possible??)

I then asked him for us to repeat the process on the right intake manifold to free those flaps. He said he doesn’t want to do that right now because first we need to replace all the gaskets inside the manifold. I told him that we barely even lifted it, and that replacing the gaskets would only be needed if we full on removed the intake manifold.

He said no, your life and safety is the priority and that we should order the gaskets, and that he will replace them and afterwards re-install the manifold using this same technique ensuring they are in the open position.

He also wants to replace the gaskets at the top of the intake manifold that are visible in the original picture I shared in the first post (the oval ones)

I want to get my car out of his shop ASAP, but I also want to do the right thing.

Should I have those gaskets replaced before asking him to put the car back together?

And lastly, I noticed that when the flaps close, that shiny metal thing that blocks them is very thin - I mean I feel like it barely blocks them so with enough force they could possibly flip past the metal shiny things and get stuck again. Maybe that’s actually how little it is and it’s how they always work, but it got me thinking: was there ever a reason for him to touch the vacuum hoses? If he swapped them, then would the vacuum PUSH the flaps open instead of trying to suck them closed? Would that then potentially force all flaps to get stuck? If so, how can I check to make sure he installed the vacuum hose correctly?

[EZRO]

It’s up to you but if your not confident in his technical competence then tow it out and pay once cry once. Lots more goodies he can destroy pulling that manifold off. Gaskets aren’t a fire hazard and 90% of the time they’re ok to go back on.


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[Fresh.S4]

I hope you aren't paying for any of that gasket replacement he's so worried about. Shop mechanic still sounds like a chump.
We can guide you to correct the situation with ease.

Technically you can do the thermo/ water pump without touching the intake runners.
The metal shim is fine and won't force the flaps.
Theirs really it one way to connect the vacuum lines to the actuators so if he fks that up, just take your car and find another shop or we can help you.

[coolarj10]

Thank you so much everyone for all your help and replies...I'm having the car put back together so I can drive it out of the shop as soon as possible.

At this point, after showing the mechanic the correct way to install the flaps, I can't do anything other than pray he re-seats the right intake manifold properly, and that I don't get an engine light again when I take the car back. If I do, I'll just go to another mechanic and eat the cost as a learning lesson.

Hopefully these will be my last two questions on this issue:

1) If he didn't remove the intake manifold to replace the waterpump and thermostat, what could have caused all 6 flaps to get stuck closed in the first place? Side note: A week or two before taking the car to him, I had the Audi Dealership perform a 95k mile service, transmission service (transmission oil) as preventative maintenance, and replace the oil in my rear sport differential as preventative maintenance. I don't recall ever seeing an engine light after going to the Audi Dealership.

2) Is it possible for me to use something like an OB2 reader to read the engine code timestamps myself? That way I could know when the intake manifold flap error actually started. Since the mechanic is going to reset the codes after re-assembling the car, I'm not sure if there will ever be a way for me to know when this issue originally surfaced.

Thank you again to each and every one of you for your time and patience in helping me with this!!

[Fresh.S4]

You should not eat any costs going elsewhere because you will ask for a refund and or charge back.
The only way for the flaps to get stuck in the closer position is by improper installation by not holding them open while they are reseated behind the metal flap.

Once he resets the ecu all set codes will erase.
You can use vcds to scan the ecu before the reset to find out when the cel set.

[coolarj10]

Thank you Fresh.S4,

If I do end up putting forth a case for a chargeback, the question becomes how to confirm that he did something to cause this... if he claims he didn't uninstall the intake manifold, what during his work would have caused him to allow the intake manifold flaps to get reseated while closed? Because it sounds like the only way for this to have happened is if he is lying and he actually did do something to the intake manifolds...

I don't have a VCDS so I guess I won't be able to know for sure, and not like he's going to give me a clear answer anyway.
Edit: on second thought, I found a VCDS rental service for $10 for 3 days in Palo Alto, CA. Maybe I'll swing by there before the car is put back together.

[EZRO]

Thank you Fresh.S4,

If I do end up putting forth a case for a chargeback, the question becomes how to confirm that he did something to cause this... if he claims he didn't uninstall the intake manifold, what during his work would have caused him to allow the intake manifold flaps to get reseated while closed? Because it sounds like the only way for this to have happened is if he is lying and he actually did do something to the intake manifolds...

I don't have a VCDS so I guess I won't be able to know for sure, and not like he's going to give me a clear answer anyway.
Edit: on second thought, I found a VCDS rental service for $10 for 3 days in Palo Alto, CA. Maybe I'll swing by there before the car is put back together.

Your reading too far into it. You took the car to him and he caused a problem you had to help him solve with the help of members of an Internet forum. If all he’s charging you for the gaskets then no biggie he shoulda charged you for them in the first place if they were being removed but don’t pay any labor additional.


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[Fresh.S4]

You stated the car was at the dealership on a certain date and you received the car back with no codes/ errors related to the flaps.
You then took car to indie shop to have work done. When you received the car back, only then did you have problems regarding the flaps. Upon further inspection it was determined that the flaps were not installed properly. It was brought to said shops attention? And then the problem was corrected?
If the shop knew what to do, this problem would of never started. The fact that you had to explain to them how to correct the issues, backs up your claim. Also why would they suggest replacing the gaskets if it the runners were never lifted?
It's physically impossible for the intake runner flaps to push past the metal fins.

This is what I'm getting from the story, unless theirs something missing. It is kind of weird though that you keep returning to the shop multiple times.

[coolarj10]

Thank you both, appreciate it! And Fresh.S4 yup you got the story right - only thing is the car hasn't left the shop since this thread started. Now that I showed the mechanic how to correct the flaps thanks to all of you, I'm waiting for him to close the car back up so I can take it home. I will never be returning to this mechanic ever again.

Will keep you all posted on the results!

[coolarj10]

Dear all, I wanted to post a quick follow up. I finally retrieved the car last week after "teaching" the mechanic how to properly install the intake manifold (lol). The car seems to be working just fine!! And no check engine light!

Thank you so very much to all of you for helping me get through this nightmare. I definitely won't be going back there again. I'm just so grateful that I had so much support in dealing with this issue that I could not have dealt with alone. And the flip side is that the guy thought we needed to replace the intake manifolds which are currently ~$800 for each side.

So once again, thank you thank you thank you!!

I'm nowhere near as knowledgeable about cars as all of you, so I don't really know how to give back to this forum, since I'm the one usually asking questions. But would love to treat you all to a beer or something...so please send me your venmo/PayPal and let me buy you a drink!