Cam chain tensioner tool broken inside head

[danspach]

Yup…I saw the threads that said take your time and go easy. Thought I was. Guess I ate my Wheaties this AM without realizing it.

Now that the threaded portion of the Blauparts cam chain tensioner tool is sheared off and sitting perfectly flush in the bowels of my BBD cylinder head I really only have one question”

Can I leave it there?

I was doing the valve cover gasket, cam cap, and camshaft seal on the drivers side head as the cam cap was the obvious source of a legit oil leak and figured if I was going to do it, I’d do it all while I was in there. As far as I can tell the cam chain tensioner gasket wasn’t leaking.

Does the threaded end of the cam chain tensioner tool do anything by itself or does it require the tension from the plastic wings to do it’s thing? I feel like it so so without the top part, tension has been reapplied to the chain.

If that is the case, I’m inclined to leave it there, do the cam cap and cam seal and put it back together.

If someone can confirm this isn’t incredibly dangerous to the health of my engine, I’d be hugely appreciative.

Seriously looking for zen right now.


- Dave

[danspach]

Think I answered my own question.

Upon further inspection the threaded part is bottomed out against the head and pushing up against the lower chain pad portion. See attached.

The plastic wings at the top were too thick (it wouldn’t fit between the chain and the tensioner until I used the bolt to “pull” it down) and it allowed the bolt to thread too far through the bottom hole of the tensioner.

Gonna try some 90-degree pliers and see if I can persuade it out.

Having said all of that, if anyone has input, I’d welcome it in case I’m missing something or off base.

[danspach]

Quick follow up for anyone playing along at home. After doing some more research, looks like I need to loose the the bolts for the tensioner and maybe a few cam caps to relieve the pressure I need to back the broken bolt out. I bought the 034Motorsports tensioner tool and it has a thinner profile and fits perfectly between the chain and the tensioner.

Little trepidation after watching a few videos warning about loosening the cam caps in a uniform way (to avoid cracking them ) but I’ll post back with results.

If anyone has tips, happy to receive them.

[2.ohhh]

Bummer that you need to do this...

One note, you should replace the cam cap bolts as they are stretch one-time use. About $1.10 a piece if you shop around. I needed 52 for my v8 RS6...
Also, invest in a solid bit to take them out...mine was twisted by 90 degrees and started stripping heads by the end of the removal process...

[taddraughn]

Bummer that you need to do this...

One note, you should replace the cam cap bolts as they are stretch one-time use. About $1.10 a piece if you shop around. I needed 52 for my v8 RS6...
Also, invest in a solid bit to take them out...mine was twisted by 90 degrees and started stripping heads by the end of the removal process...

This is really good advice. Cheap torx bits cannot handle the torque to remove them. I went overkill and bought the Wera 1/2 inch set of extended torx bits when I realized the cheap ones weren't gonna cut it.

[danspach]

Thank you both for the replies and the tips. I ended up buying a fresh set of Gear Wrench torx bits after doing the valve cover gasket with some dodgy bits.

Re: the cam bolts I’m kinda hoping that if I remove the four bolts holding in the tensioner itself it’ll relieve enough pressure on the bolt stub to back it out.

Guess we’ll see.

Thanks again.

[C5S6]

6 years and ~40,000 miles ago I replaced an exhaust cam and 2 lifters in my wife's A6...both cams out. Reused every bolt. No worries.

[danspach]

Ok, so I’m stuck.

Quick update. My intention was to use a technique I saw on a 1.8t to remove the cam caps on the exhaust cam and swing out the cam to sneak the tensioner out. Scary as hell given the cam cap orientation isn’t the same and one bridges both the exhaust and intake cam. I also ended up stripping one of the bolts. Yay. Thank you Dremel and impact screwdriver. Got the cam caps out ok but even though the cam is free of all caps (including the bolts for the tensioner) I can’t get the cam to budge which seems insane.

You’ll recall the tensioner tool broke inside the bottom portion of the tensioner so I need to get the tensioner out to back out the busted bolt.

Is it possible that the tension on the chain is prevent me from being able to remove the cam?!

Is there any other way to relieve the tension on the tensioner other than the tool?

21E36670-F5E9-498A-BEDB-7BBA4802B46E.jpg9BBA1337-30F8-4B10-8A44-1784341F7095.jpg

This is the current state of my driver side cylinder head. Why won’t this cam come out?!

6BF899E5-B83B-4478-8E42-FD1B6E9DF292.jpg55B142B7-7DF7-4118-9576-140CC3442EF9.jpg

[S/RConcepts]

You're correct, the tensioner is indeed holding up your progress. I'd just go ahead and remove the other 3 caps on the exhaust cam and pull the whole shebang as a unit, it'll be a lot safer as well since these are hollow camshafts and you risk damaging them while they're still under tension.

[danspach]

So I ended up sliding a Phillips screwdriver under the chain where the tip was on the body of the tensioner and levered the chain up slowly (could hear the oil “squishing” out) and relieved enough tension to loosen the chain enough to free the camshaft from the bottom half of the bearing.

Now it’s not under uneven tension but I’m hung up on the corner of the tensioner being stuck under the timing belt cover where it attaches to the head. This is killing me.

Taking the other cam (and the whole shebang) out isn’t an option because the timing belt is still on….unless I’m missing something..

[2.ohhh]

I really hate to say, but I'd start from "scratch" at this point and address it like a timing belt job. I'm not 100% familiar with the BBD, but seems to share the same belt setup as my RS6 BCY. When I did my cams (for tensioner shoes, chains, and a few collapsed lifters), I had the belt off along with cam gears, etc....

Someone with more firsthand knowledge may be able to address this better, but I couldn't even imagine trying to pull a cam off of my motor with the belt still attached and under tension...the cams (especially on the drivers side) were a real PITA to re-install even with the motor out of the car given the spring tension on the valves, etc.

[S/RConcepts]

I really hate to say, but I'd start from "scratch" at this point and address it like a timing belt job. I'm not 100% familiar with the BBD, but seems to share the same belt setup as my RS6 BCY. When I did my cams (for tensioner shoes, chains, and a few collapsed lifters), I had the belt off along with cam gears, etc....

Someone with more firsthand knowledge may be able to address this better, but I couldn't even imagine trying to pull a cam off of my motor with the belt still attached and under tension...the cams (especially on the drivers side) were a real PITA to re-install even with the motor out of the car given the spring tension on the valves, etc.

Sadly, I'm going to have to agree and recommend the above- for quite a few reasons.

Last night, I went out to the spare 4.2 I have sitting in my garage and tried to work a way out of your current predicament, and it's near impossible with the timing belt still on. The only way to do it would end up mangling the metal timing cover at the very least, at the most it would damage the belt and a few other things.

The other reason is that if you managed to sneak out the intake cam/tensioner, replace the shoes/gaskets, and get it all back in... the likelihood of you nailing the timing back to where it was (or even at an acceptable adjustment) is slim to naught. If you got it wrong, you'd have to pull the cam/tensioner out again and correct it, thereby trashing your new gaskets and wasting a whole lot of your time. This is just talking about the chain side of things as well- you could theoretically nail that and still have the belt pull itself out of time.

I'm all for trying to be non-invasive, but in most cases with these cars you save yourself a whole lot of headaches and time if you just grit your teeth and do it the way the nice German engineers intended lol. I wish it wasn't that way a lot of times, but it saves a lot of mental anguish to just go ahead and pull it all apart- not to mention the amount of time you save since these come apart really easy. This way, you can also be 100% certain that the chains and the belt are perfectly in time and you won't have to redo anything, and it's only about an afternoon's work to sort it all out if you're familiar with the timing belt job.

Once again, I wish it wasn't the way that it is sometimes, but unfortunately it is.

[danspach]

2.OHHH AND S/RConcepts….thank you both very much for your replies. I really appreciate the feedback and the fact that you’d give it a look on a spare engine S/R Coincepts…that’s huge.

I’ve resigned to the fact that this has become a timing belt job (well maybe not completely but I’m getting there). My next challenge is getting the cam back into the bearing without wrecking the cam journals. Then I need to re-install the caps so I can set her at TDC. I’d marked the teeth on the cam gear and links on the cam chain (1st pic) to maintain my relative position but that trick only works when you can roll the cam out and then back into place.

51F882D8-4FAD-483A-A9D9-49E09E1ADEBA.jpg

Where she sits now:

EFA3ABDE-7393-413D-8893-B2833607B2B5.jpg

General question for you….is it that much more involved to take the whole front off the car vs locking it into service position? I ask because given the length of this puppy, my garage is already “snug” and making the car even longer might be a dealbreaker.

Online now looking for the cam locking tools and a timing kit. Any preferred providers for this stuff?

Thanks again guys. Guess I’ll know this car really well by the time I’m done with my “valve cover gasket”.

[S/RConcepts]

I would personally go about it this way- don't worry about tightening the intake cam back down, just pull the spark plugs, rotate the engine very slowly and 'help' the intake cam along as everything rotates, and set TDC in that manner. You won't have to worry about valve contact on the intake side that way, and if you have another set of hands/eyes it would help a bunch as well. Remember- if it stops turning freely, don't force it!

On the front end, one can do it either way, but the car ends up being a lot shorter if you pull the bumper and core support off. One little trick I like to do is to leave the AC condenser lines hooked up, and just swing it underneath the car so you don't have to worry about an evac/recharge. I got my timing tools off of Ebay and they've all worked out just fine. Sure, there are ones of higher quality out there, but they tend to cost much more than one should feel comfortable spending just to work on a personal car. The tools you're going to need are: T40005 locking bar, 3242 crank pin, T40009 tensioner pulley tool, a small adjustable 2-jaw puller (T40001, but a cheap 2-jaw will work too), and a 32mm clutch fan wrench. Also, remember to loosen the 10mm fan pulley bolts before pulling off the serpentine belt, and the clutch fan is reverse thread as well so righty loosey lol.

Hope this helps!

[danspach]

“Hope this helps!” he says…

Are you kidding?! This is amazing. Thank you.

Thank you for the perspective. I was not liking - at all - the idea of “persuading” the cams back in and what you say about “helping” it around makes sense. Guess I can use all the other marks to determine when I’m at TDC.

Thank you for the tool part numbers.

Thanks for the tip on the AC condenser. The front end will be coming off and I suppose a good opportunity to swap out my PS hose and the 034 motor mounts which have been in my cabinet for 6 months.

I have the fan pulley “holdback tool” (if I forget to loosen the 10mm bolts) and thin profile wrench from working on my e30’s so one less tool to buy!

Going to marshal my mental resources and then dive in. I’ll almost certainly come back with questions but thank you again. I’m not short on enthusiasm but this will be my first t-belt on this car so a little short on experience.

- Dave

[2.ohhh]

All good advice above...here's a great how-to from Blauparts...I couldn't find it on the web site where it used to be, but had the bookmark linked which still seems to work...

https://www.blauparts.com/install_instructions/160.pdf

[Hfpedersen]

Blauparts used to do a rental toolkit with all the special TB tools. Unfortunately they seemed to have stopped that service.

[Hfpedersen]

Question regarding the cam chain job.

After everything is butttoned up should you spin the engine by hand to build up some oil pressure in the tensioners? Or is there enough pressure being exerted by the mechanism itself to hold the cam chains?

[2.ohhh]

I would....but not so much for the oil pressure as the chains can't really pop off if the tensioner shoes and all are properly in place. I do it to make sure that everything stays in time after several revolutions (and no valves hit, but should't be a problem if done correctly). The chains are tricky...there are different link counts on each side as one tensions from the top, and the other from the bottom....should be one link difference on each side for what is visible on the top side. Also, at TDC, the passenger side will drop right in where the driver's side is under valve load and wants to keep popping out, so tensioning sequence on the cam caps is most important on that set.

Here's one way to check as part of the alignment process...look at the arrow on the cam cap, it should line up with the slot in the cam on each of the 4 cams...

[danspach]

All good advice above...here's a great how-to from Blauparts...I couldn't find it on the web site where it used to be, but had the bookmark linked which still seems to work...

https://www.blauparts.com/install_instructions/160.pdf

Thanks 2.ohhh: These days they have it listed under the “Related Helpful Info” on the page of the actual timing belt kit.

[surferdude]

I’ve done this job a couple of times. At first I tried a shortcut, but came to the conclusion it would be easier to pull the whole front end and do TB service at same time. I also pulled cams, adjusters and replaced any worn parts, seals, gaskets etc.
I was careful in replacement and realignment of everything, triple checking as I went along. Take your time, and good luck!


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[danspach]

Received my setup from Baum tools tonight. (Camshaft lock, crankshaft lock pin and belt tensioner tool.)

Guess it’s time to pull her face off.

Thanks for the support guys.

[2.ohhh]

You'll be fine if you have the nerve to try and pull a cam out the way you did. When you follow the service procedure, everything will come apart just as expected and should be a breeze, just take your time and double check everything.

[Hfpedersen]

Just finished getting both of my tensioners in. Unfortunately I can't button it up as FedEx is 2 days late delivering my timing lock bar. Lame.

Drivers side was definitely a bear to do, scared the shit out of me when I pulled the gear and the cams "popped". The whole link count thing was strange as it can vary a bit depending on where you look at it from. I think I got them in right, we will see once timing is set and I rotate it a couple times. Almost seems to me like it would be pretty hard to get the cams back in if your chain was a whole roller long/short.

[danspach]

You'll be fine if you have the nerve to try and pull a cam out the way you did. When you follow the service procedure, everything will come apart just as expected and should be a breeze, just take your time and double check everything.

I’m sure there’s a famous quote about the fine line between “bravery” and “stupidity” but I’ll look it up after my car is back in one piece.

[danspach]

Yup, so here I am - 7 months later - about to do the timing belt on the car. (Not even sure how to defend that.) I ended up taking the front end off completely for the access. Now that I have a good look, I’m compiling a list of things a to do while I’m in there.

I have a Blauparts kit for timing (t-belt, tensioner, serp belt,ensioner, water pump and t-stat, rollers) and wondering if there are any natural add-ons given the vastly improved access. I’m planning on doing motor mounts and the vacuum lines on the front of the engine. Also my power steering cooler lines look like they were at the bottom of the ocean so they’re on the list along with a fan clutch (it was coated with very fine silt-like oily dust which I assume was the fluid inside).

Do you guys proactively replace the alternator? Pulleys?

I need to look at the state of the cam tensioner shoes which were the genesis of this thread and suspect you’re going to suggest tensioner shoes and cam seals.

Also, you can see in the pics below my serpentine belt tensioner is missing the “nut” I’d normally use to relive tension to remove the belt. Can I just cut the belt and then take it off the car? Is it under a ton of tension?

Taddraughn, I’ve studied your thread - amazing work btw and love theFulvia! - and 2.ohhh responses in there... Super helpful.

As she sits now.









(How ‘bout that serpentine belt!? Yikes.)

[C5S6]

6-speed swap as long as you're there

Good to see you're back at it!

[02 A6 2.7T]

Also, you can see in the pics below my serpentine belt tensioner is missing the “nut” I’d normally use to relive tension to remove the belt. Can I just cut the belt and then take it off the car? Is it under a ton of tension?



(How ‘bout that serpentine belt!? Yikes.)

New tensioner will come with a pin in the holes :

https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/...ensioner,11659

[danspach]

6-speed swap as long as you're there

Good to see you're back at it!

Ok, now that was funny. Thank you. I needed that. Been going crazy tracking down part numbers and that made me laugh.

I also said power steering cooler lines were shot but it’s my transmission cooler lines. Looks like they may be NLA. Is there a common solution to this?

[danspach]

Thanks for the diagram 02 A6 2.7T!

That makes total sense. I wish the Audi service manual was that clear!

[danspach]

I would personally go about it this way- don't worry about tightening the intake cam back down, just pull the spark plugs, rotate the engine very slowly and 'help' the intake cam along as everything rotates, and set TDC in that manner. You won't have to worry about valve contact on the intake side that way, and if you have another set of hands/eyes it would help a bunch as well. Remember- if it stops turning freely, don't force it!

Morning all! Hope everyone had a nice Thanksgiving! I’m finally back in the garage and have hit a snag.

I’ve removed some more things from the front of the engine and need to set it to TDC before I go any further. This is on the driver’s side bank. When I try to rotate the crank bolt, because the intake cam is completely cap-less, it wants to roll up and out of the engine instead of rotating to get to TDC. I think I need to take off the last two caps on the exhaust cam as well so both cams are “floating” so they can rotate to TDC.

Am I on the right track?



Thanks in advance.

[danspach]

Sorry, I can’t get the link to work within the post. Here’s a picture of the situation.


https://imgur.com/a/aviEu3h

[danspach]

Update:

Carefully put the cam caps back on. Don’t think the factory sequence would have worked since I wasn’t at TDC so tightened 2 turns for each bolt/cap and by the time I got back to the top of the order, the oil pressure had relaxed enough for another two turns until I was able to snug them all down and rotate to TDC. Win.

Cam bar didn’t line up perfectly but not terrible.
Crankshaft locking pin installed.

Got the timing components apart mostly without incident. Driver side tension roller bolt ended up stripped out. Got that out and was able to move on.

Now my challenge is the water pump bolts that sheared off (3 of 9 snapped). They’re currently soaking in PB blaster but I’ve little experience in what is a pretty sensitive area considering it’s a mating surface.

How do you guys approach this kind of situation? Can I put a mapp torch on this if I keep it moving around to get some heat into it? I’ve seen videos where guys use an induction heater around the bolt but pretty sure it was an iron block and not sure that will work on aluminum.

Also, what are people using for cam tensioner pads these days? There seems to be little wear on the current pads but I have to take the cams and the tensioners out to remove the sheared cam tensioner tool. I’ve read some weren’t thrilled with the fit of the RKX ones found on eBay but the preferred ones don’t seem to be listed.

As always thanks in advance for any guidance.

[aussieallroad01]

I don't envy you on the bolts. I had issues like that in a briggs and it wasnt much fun. Ended up having to drill one out and put in helicoils after failing to get one out with easy-outs.

If you can get to the top of the bolt you can try grinding in a slot to fit a screw driver. You can also try propane torches, soldering irons (if you have a big one) or even dry ice - anything that can deliver substantial heatshock quickly. You can also try welding a nut onto the top of the bolt if you can get at it well enough. Welding can be a great way to deliver the heat and break the bond.

Like you I had issues when i tried to get one cam chain tensioner out. I nearly snapped my tool but backed off before that happened and decided to leave sleeping dogs lie on that bank. I was doing "while you're at it" maintenance as part of a timing job and didn't have to replace it, although I would have really liked to for peace of mind. I have since bought a metal version of the tool just in case I ever have to do that job.

[aussieallroad01]

[QUOTE=danspach;14858222 I think I need to take off the last two caps on the exhaust cam as well so both cams are “floating” so they can rotate to TDC.

Am I on the right track?
.[/QUOTE]

The ideal (too late now) is to have the car at TDC, then put in a crank lock pin so it doesnt rotate.

[NWS6]

One method to extract the broken bolts is to use a reverse rotation drill bit and drill. These extraction drill bits are different in that they small points that grab as you drill. Use a diameter bit significantly smaller than the broken stud. Also use a variable speed drill.

Go extremely slowly and carefully as you get the hole started, and center it as best you can. Sometimes the broken piece will reverse out with the drilling alone.

Once you get a hole drilled into to stud, then you can use an bolt extractor. They come in various designs and grip the inside of this new drilled hole. You can then carefully turn it counterclockwise and try to back the broken bolt out.

If none of this works, you may just have to finish drilling out the hole and tapping it with an insert.

You’re very right to be concerned about preserving the delicate mating surface. Best to try the least damaging techniques first.


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[danspach]

Thanks NWS6. I’ve been planning my strategy. Each day I’m going out to hit it with a torch (not for very long) and spray some aerokroil in each one.

Of the three one has a decent bit still proud of the block (enough to get some vice grips on it), the second a little less and the third even less but none are actually flush (yet)

With the one with the least I was going to cut a slot and try hitting it (carefully) with an impact screwdriver and then it that doesn’t work, cut it clean with dremel and try a center punch, reverse drill bit/extractor. I didn’t have any of these tools so cobalt bits and what seemed to be a highly-rated extractor set are on the way.

With the longer ones I was hoping to find a “stud extractor” that would work but all I’m seeing are 3/8” drive and the chuck doesn’t tighten small enough to grab the stud. Going to try vice grips with those - again, carefully.

Also, thought maybe an induction heater but - well, aluminum block.


Thanks very much for the feedback. Good to see I’m on the right track.

Next up will be pulling the cams and tensioner. (I’ll know this engine pretty well once I’m done with this job. )

[danspach]

Thought I’d post an update in case anyone else runs into these issues.

Thought about the approach to remove the broken bolts (probably overthought it). Considered the left-hand drill bit/extractor approach but with such a small bolt it wasn’t inspiring much confidence and I had little interest in drilling, and heli-coiling it If the extractor broke. New cobalt bits cored one bolt like it was aluminum - totally worth that purchase. Amazing.

I’d never used the welder I bought at a swap meet years ago but after watching 10,000 videos on YouTube, now was the time to fire it up.

Weld-Pak 100, flux-core, Voltage on “B” and wire speed at about 3.5




Thoughts:

…those settings worked really well

…I’d tried an M6 nut (like 5 times) and it wouldn’t hold. M8 worked much better given more space to fill…big thanks to my wife who in addition to being the fire marshal is apparently a low-key fabricator

…I’d used a washer as it seemed a typical approach BUT think holding the nut with pliers instead would have avoided an issue I ran into. If the washer isn’t flat to the block, when you turn it out you end up with a cleanly scribed arc in your beautiful aluminum block…bolt was OUT but that sucked.

…Aerokroil into the threads just after cooling from red to black definitely helped the situation.

…as all the videos say, back and forth a little at a time to break the bond and you’ll know when you’re home free. What a feeling.



Ouch. There’s the washer scar and the pitting is from putting too much heat into the head (from having to try a few times even though it was the last of three bolts and I should have been a pro by then). Almost made me kick the car off the stands.

Luckily, I’m not the first dope to do this and after another round of research, realized that it isn’t a high heat or high stress area, it was a small wound and there is a pretty typical fix.




Yup. Dug out the dead aluminum with a dental pick, brake clean, acetone and then JB Weld applied with a razor blade to fill in the damage. Lightest coat of ATF on the bolt threads so it wouldn’t bind with the JB Weld. Pretty pleased with the result.

Replaced the aged vacuum lines in front of the intake manifold and once the JB completely cures, we’re back in business.

Cam chain tensioner pads arrive Saturday (thanks @Iksan12 for the rec!)
034 motor mounts
New alternator
New AC compressor
Super Uber Timing kit from Blauparts (but using the all metal 034 tensioner tool!)

I’m sure I’ll be back with questions about the cam timing once I’ve replaced the tensioner pads.

What do you guys use to clean/prep the water pump flange?

[danspach]

Some progress to report.

New 034 Motor Mounts, alternator and AC compressor installed.

I’m refinishing a few parts and uncovered the following on the harmonic balancer:







Would you guys put this back on your car?

[ShelbyM3]

No. What’s the back side look like?


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