3.0 piston issues

[Smogmonster]

So, car is a 2014 with the CREC engine on about 54k, tuned with a crank pulley, running 470bhp.


Last week after my normal 30 mile drive to work I noticed a little vibration at idle, scanned with VCDS, showed no codes.


Took it out for a bit of a more spirited drive, logged a cyl 5 misfire, swapped plugs/coilpacks around, misfire stayed on cyl 5. Compression test came back at 150psi for cyl 4 & 6, cyl 5 only 75 psi.

Leakdown test shows valves are all sealing correctly, also with the charger off looking into the ports it all looks very clean. Air is escaping into the crankcase. So it's got to be either rings or a piston issue. Surprising considering its only done 54k miles.

Car is currently at my mechanics 3rd in the queue for a rebuild :(

Anyone else had similar issues? What were the causes?

Also while it's bits what else should I have done? I don't want to get it fixed and back on the road only for something else to go in a few weeks time.

Other than PCV, waterpump and thermostat is there anything else worth doing?

[2by2handsofblue]

What will it cost u to get that fixed?

we are the borg! resistance is futile.

[mahhdd]

Oh man. We've been discussing cyl 5 lately. We'll likely pelt you with questions

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[2by2handsofblue]

What this?
https://www.goapr.com/products/engin...parts/MS100090

we are the borg! resistance is futile.

[Jake@JHM]

Always Cyl 5 it seems

[wes8398]

The social media groups see a lot more traffic (most of it just garbage being tossed into the dumpster fire that it is), and cyl 5 issues has been a top 3 topic for at least a year now. Almost always rings, and very often related to ethanol content in fuel (or meth being used to supplement fuel octane) and fuel starvation. The fuel systems are having a hard time keeping up to even just E40. Add to that, winter temperatures resulting in negative DA's, and Autotech's issues with quality control... it's a mess. Something about that particular cylinder makes it the first to go. One factor is probably being a "middle" cylinder on the bank and likely higher cylinder pressures, heat, etc. I've been very intently watching for over a year, and this is the general info I've gathered from the very few instances where there's actually a follow-up on the failure. It's also worth your consideration that most of the cases I've seen these ring failures also wind up with scored cylinder walls. Unless you plan on a 2.8L conversion (due to sleeves), I'd start shopping out replacement engines/blocks. Sorry for your loss.

*EDIT* I'll add that I've also seen this issue happen due to running files / software that doesn't match hardware / demand.

[Bartlett]

How was the level of power/performance before it went south?

[RoofRails]

So, car is a 2014 with the CREC engine on about 54k, tuned with a crank pulley, running 470bhp.


Last week after my normal 30 mile drive to work I noticed a little vibration at idle, scanned with VCDS, showed no codes.


Took it out for a bit of a more spirited drive, logged a cyl 5 misfire, swapped plugs/coilpacks around, misfire stayed on cyl 5. Compression test came back at 150psi for cyl 4 & 6, cyl 5 only 75 psi.

Leakdown test shows valves are all sealing correctly, also with the charger off looking into the ports it all looks very clean. Air is escaping into the crankcase. So it's got to be either rings or a piston issue. Surprising considering its only done 54k miles.

Car is currently at my mechanics 3rd in the queue for a rebuild :(

Anyone else had similar issues? What were the causes?

Also while it's bits what else should I have done? I don't want to get it fixed and back on the road only for something else to go in a few weeks time.

Other than PCV, waterpump and thermostat is there anything else worth doing?

Have them put a bore scope down in the #5 hole and see if the cylinder walls are damaged. That seems to be the #1 killer of these engines when there is fuel issue but you haven't really posted enough information about your setup for anyone to make a educated guess.

I would replace the timing chain tensioners while the engine is out.


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[Smogmonster]

I've not talked figures with him yet, I'll leave that until he's got it stripped down and has confirmed the issue.

Over here in the UK there doesn't seem to have been many similar issues, not that I have been able find anyway.

I've only owned the car for about 10 months, has always been ran on 99 Ron fuel while I've had it(I think this is equivalent to your 95 but not sure)this is less than 5% Ethanol. Previous owner could have been running it on 95 Ron which also was only 5% Ethanol up until recently, its now up to 10%.

Has only been tuned for about 3000miles and was done by one of the countries most renowned Audi tuners so I would be surprised if it was a software issue. I'm running the standard SC pulley with a 179mm crank pulley, IE intake and everything else is standard.

We did have a look in Cyl 5 with a scope, there was some pitting, small pock marks almost, couldn't see any scoring as such, hoping I caught it in time before any more serious damage was caused, he said it looks like it could be honed but can't be sure until he sees it properly.

Performance wise I can't say I really noticed any difference at all tbh, if it hadn't of been for the misfire I wouldn't have known there was an issue.

I'll keep this updated with info as and when I find out anymore, will also make sure to get some pics of the damage etc.

[evanb]

We did have a look in Cyl 5 with a scope, there was some pitting, small pock marks almost, couldn't see any scoring as such, hoping I caught it in time before any more serious damage was caused, he said it looks like it could be honed but can't be sure until he sees it properly.

I thought I read on this forum that these cylinders can't be honed.

[RoofRails]

I thought I read on this forum that these cylinders can't be honed.

You are correct, they have to be sleeved.

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[Smogmonster]

You are correct, they have to be sleeved.

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I thought it was dependent on the level of damage, I'll have to speak to him about that then.

Things really do just go from bad to worse

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[Smogmonster]

Guys,

I've been doing a bit of reading today and from what I can find my CREC engine has cast iron liners, I don't think you guys in America got this revision of the engine? Does this sound true?

I've found a few places in the UK that say they can fit new liners to mine.

Need to speak to my mechanic on Monday to get his take on it.

[RoofRails]

Guys,

I've been doing a bit of reading today and from what I can find my CREC engine has cast iron liners, I don't think you guys in America got this revision of the engine? Does this sound true?

I've found a few places in the UK that say they can fit new liners to mine.

Need to speak to my mechanic on Monday to get his take on it.

I think you are correct on that. Below is a quote from Olegs FB page Boosted World. We don't see many of the CREC engine failures posted in the US.

"Ok , let’s see internals difference and upgrades on EA837 (EVO) aka CREC . Only in here will be post all details and short clips in IG

Main changes :

Dual Port injectors and direct injectors higher pressure 200 bar

Slightly bigger compressed value of the supercharger and bigger Intercoolers with more angle turn for less restriction

Cooling jets for exhaust camshaft and valvetrain helps with lubrication and cooling.

Liner aka sleeve installed from manufacture 1mm

Higher Piston Compression rate 10.8:1

Better control of engine oil pressure

Better cooling engine etc...

Good engine for build 800whp +"

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[Smogmonster]

Thanks, that makes me a little bit happier, hopefully worst case it needs a new sleeve, better than a new block lol


I'll have to have a look at that page!

Most of the UK based forums have died a death, it's all on FB now which is a shame!

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[Smogmonster]

More good news today, piston from cyl 5, or most of it anyway IMG-20220224-WA0003.jpgIMG-20220224-WA0002.jpg

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[RyanJon]

Who’s doing your rebuild for you? Is it mrc tuned?

[sepheroth86]

Ringland failure?

[killer_s4]

Almost always rings, and very often related to ethanol content in fuel (or meth being used to supplement fuel octane) and fuel starvation.

What is it about meth that contributes to the ring failure?

[hunter_killer]

Want to explain how the vibration was that you felt at idle? I don’t want to jinx myself, but I’ve gained a vibration at idle and on downshifts. Not sure if it’s my exhaust, cold weather with my engine mounts, or what. No CEL or other symptoms.


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[Smogmonster]

Who’s doing your rebuild for you? Is it mrc tuned?

No, they're a 4 hr drive away, it's a local indy that I've known for a long time.

Ringland failure?

Looks that way yeah

What is it about meth that contributes to the ring failure?

I'm not convinced this is Meth or Ethanol related, mine has never had either!

Want to explain how the vibration was that you felt at idle? I don’t want to jinx myself, but I’ve gained a vibration at idle and on downshifts. Not sure if it’s my exhaust, cold weather with my engine mounts, or what. No CEL or other symptoms.


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Best I can do is that it just felt like it was running a little bit rough, but it wasn't really noticeable when under load.

Using measuring blocks in vcds the misfire counter was registering multiple misfires even though I had no CEL or actual fault codes, only got a code after I had took it for a more spirited drive!

[djn876]

What is it about meth that contributes to the ring failure?

The alcohol fuels are harder on components, but honestly mixing meth with water really negates a lot of the corrosive properties.

Also, a lot of the people blowing engines from what I'm reading like had engines struggling to fuel. E40, high PR, and low DA all contribute to higher fuel demand. Seems a lot of those engines weren't being logged or monitored and they ran very lean, and eventually something fails.

So my thoughts are not that it is so caused by a particular fuel type, but rather the fueling demands required by the associated higher horsepower tunes and setups.

I can tell you that driving around in -1800 DA the cars fueling is perfectly happy. However when I was driving around in -3300 DA, even with 1000cc or 70% methanol it was struggling to maintain fuel pressure on the high side. Without logging or monitoring, it's hard to know where that limit is, until something fails.

Just my thoughts having been working with this platform for the last 6 years and observing a lot of the problems recently.

Plus the engines are older and many are higher mileage, as well built as this engine is, it won't last forever, and making twice the factory power is going to make things wear faster.

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[Smogmonster]

All pistons are now out, injectors all tested.

All of the pistons seem to have quite a bit of burning/blowby, I'm starting to think that maybe this is down to poor servicing before I got the car.

Any opinions?

Attachment 263535Attachment 263536IMG-20220301-WA0000.jpgAttachment 263537Screenshot_20220301-165700_Gallery.jpgScreenshot_20220301-165718_Gallery.jpgScreenshot_20220301-165727_Gallery.jpgScreenshot_20220301-165745_Gallery.jpgScreenshot_20220301-165752_Gallery.jpgScreenshot_20220301-165759_Gallery.jpg

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[RoofRails]

What about an oiling distribution issue ? If it were my engine, I would want to rule that out before I made an assumption that it was related to excessive oil change intervals. You may be 100% correct, but if the issue is mechanical within the oiling system, this failure will repeat itself.

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[sepheroth86]

It does seem odd that the bottom of the piston skirt/ringland failed without any noticeable damage elsewhere.

[Smogmonster]

I'll definitely mention that to my tech.

Looks like it's going to be a while before I can get pistons for it, the manufacturer, Mahle, have no stock in Germany, TPS, which are our trade supplier of genuine VAG parts can't get any, obviously because the manufacturer has non!

:(

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[killer_s4]

The alcohol fuels are harder on components, but honestly mixing meth with water really negates a lot of the corrosive properties.

Also, a lot of the people blowing engines from what I'm reading like had engines struggling to fuel. E40, high PR, and low DA all contribute to higher fuel demand. Seems a lot of those engines weren't being logged or monitored and they ran very lean, and eventually something fails.

So my thoughts are not that it is so caused by a particular fuel type, but rather the fueling demands required by the associated higher horsepower tunes and setups.

I can tell you that driving around in -1800 DA the cars fueling is perfectly happy. However when I was driving around in -3300 DA, even with 1000cc or 70% methanol it was struggling to maintain fuel pressure on the high side. Without logging or monitoring, it's hard to know where that limit is, until something fails.

Just my thoughts having been working with this platform for the last 6 years and observing a lot of the problems recently.

Plus the engines are older and many are higher mileage, as well built as this engine is, it won't last forever, and making twice the factory power is going to make things wear faster.

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Thanks for the explanation. I was worried because I run a 50/50 1000cc meth nozzle so I wanted to make sure I wasnt contributing to issues down the road. My pr isnt trying to break records (57/184) either but it is alarming that some people are having issues now.

[mahhdd]

Heads up... IE is looking to make forged internals. They're looking for failed motors.

[Smogmonster]

Heads up... IE is looking to make forged internals. They're looking for failed motors.

The rest of the engine is fine, and I'm in the UK anyway so doubt they'd want to pay postage for mine.



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[Smogmonster]

Pistons finally arrived and rebuild is in progress at last!

After further investigation piston number 5 has a little bit more damage than we initially realised, luckily it didn't give way while it was running! 20220321_115950.jpg20220321_115915.jpg20220321_115909.jpg20220321_120106.jpg20220321_120102.jpgIMG-20220318-WA0000.jpgIMG-20220318-WA0001.jpgIMG-20220318-WA0002.jpgIMG-20220318-WA0003.jpg

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[clettngx]

Thinking of getting a 2016 CREC s4 here in Japan. It seems the q7s over in the Us are having major oil consumption issues. They also have this newer generation 3.0t in them. The one I'm looking at only has 40k km on it, but I'd hate to run into this once I get closer to 100. I've had an A4 2014 for the last 4 years and it's been great. Looking to upgrade. How has the car been for you since repair? Any other CRECs in the UK having the same issues?

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[esimp2k]

As an aside my 2015 a6 was having oil consumption issues after having replaced the pcv for the second time. Was putting in a quart at lest ever 500 miles. Took it the dealer and talked to my rep who I always deal with. He mentioned a factory tech had been in recently and they discussed high mileage q7s eating oil. Recommendation was a quart of marvel mystery oil. I was suspect but said go ahead and try it. So far 1000+ miles and zero oil loss. I am stage 2 102k miles.


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[SwankPeRFection]

So far 1000+ miles and zero oil loss. I am stage 2 102k miles.


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Did they put in that quart of MMO on a full fill or when you were short a quart? Lol

[clettngx]

As an aside my 2015 a6 was having oil consumption issues after having replaced the pcv for the second time. Was putting in a quart at lest ever 500 miles. Took it the dealer and talked to my rep who I always deal with. He mentioned a factory tech had been in recently and they discussed high mileage q7s eating oil. Recommendation was a quart of marvel mystery oil. I was suspect but said go ahead and try it. So far 1000+ miles and zero oil loss. I am stage 2 102k miles.


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So they are in fact burning oil on these new CRECs. Sounds like a lawsuit might be coming in America over this. Forums are littered with complaints about the q7s.low tension piston rings seem to be the culprit. Not sure how MMO is meant to fix that!

Maybe I should just stick to the A4 for a bit.... :(

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[esimp2k]

Did they put in that quart of MMO on a full fill or when you were short a quart? Lol

Complete change. Seemed crazy but it worked!


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[Dippy]

I've never had any significant oil consumption with my 2015 CREC - the only time any oil goes in is once a year in the annual service.
However it is a low mileage car, having only just passed 26K miles. And also I paid attention to how I ran the engine in when it was new.

[clettngx]

Yeah, probably can't expect any consumption early on. I'm looking at an S4 without 25k mile(41,000km). Still a bit concerning though.

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[A4Qwattro]

Unfortunately there's quite a few reports of issues with the 2017 Q7 CREC motors popping up.

[clettngx]

Unfortunately there's quite a few reports of issues with the 2017 Q7 CREC motors popping up.

Yes, I see them mainly on audisport etc. some guy in Africa is having a meltdown offer his a7 CREC that he purchased at 140k mile and had major oil consumption from day one.

Does anyone know if there are spec differences between the NA CRECs in the Q7, a6, a7s compared to the ROW?

I saw one post that said a technician from Germany recently went to dealerships in NA about the Q7 oil burning issue. Told the dealers to suggest a bottle of Marvel Mystery oil to try to fix the issue. LMAO

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[esimp2k]

It works! Lol


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