3.0T motor seized or other issue???

[TMAN_]

Hi all,

A few nights ago my engine cut out during driving, and I've not been able to start it since. When trying to start I get a loud click from the lower rear right side of the engine (starter area?) and my dash, MMI, lights all go out before coming back on after a second.

Video upload taken from roadside on the night:


I've ruled out battery as have tried 2 more including a brand new one... Jump starting from another car had exactly same outcome regardless if we jump to battery or under bonnet points. I've checked all of the fuses except for the ones under the ECU in engine bay which I will do shortly... Also checked all grounds in back by battery, engine bay, heads, near starter by front right tyre, etc... Battery isolator switch in boot is also good.

Car has been sat for 3 or 4 days, oil from dipstick looks clean but smells slightly of fuel, oil was changed twice including engine flush about 1000 miles ago during a recent engine out job that cost me an arm and a leg for a whole timing chain kit, pcv, supercharger cooler and engine mounts amongst other things....

Nothing I can see looks out of order, no damage to aux or sc belts, no leaks or smells or anything obvious, no melted cables, electrical connectors all seated, and all electronics are functioning as normal except when trying to start the engine.

Car is a 2010 B8 S4 3.0T at 87k miles and has been meticulously looked after (I have literally 100s of receipts), oil changes at 5k with Millers NT+ 5w40, MRC Stage 2 since 35k miles- car has never missed a beat in the 25k miles I've driven it including 40c summer through Europe or below freezing start ups. I always log via Torque pro during driving, and the log shows absolutely nothing out of the ordinary, no major DTCs reported by Torque either...

After losing power and failing to restart the engine I immediately scanned for DTCs and 5 came up, all electrical related so I'm really really hoping this is not going to be a trashed engine right after having paid for work costing me about enough for a replacement... I cleared codes but still unable to start, unsurprisingly codes have not returned:

============1==============
0471
Raw code: 01D7
ECU: 19. CAN Gateway
Status: Test conditions are met, Validated and stored in non volatile memory
Audi: Electronic damping control unit EGD-J250; Control unit for EGD electronically controlled damping-J250

============2==============
0446
Raw code: 01BE
ECU: 03. ABS control unit
Status: Pending fault present during this driving cycle, Validated and stored in non volatile memory
Audi: B105000: Function limitation due to excessive temperature
Audi: Work restriction due to insufficient voltage; Functional restriction due to undervoltage

============3==============
0955
Raw code: 03BB
ECU: 05. Authorization system for access and starting the engine
Status: Pending fault present during this driving cycle, Validated and stored in non volatile memory
Audi: Key 1

============4==============
0446
Raw code: 01BE
ECU: 14. Email system Damping controls
Status: Pending fault present during this driving cycle, Validated and stored in non volatile memory
Audi: B105000: Function limitation due to excessive temperature
Audi: Work restriction due to insufficient voltage; Functional restriction due to undervoltage

============5==============
0471
Raw code: 01D7
ECU: 55. Headlights corrector
Status: Test conditions are met, Validated and stored in non volatile memory
Audi: Electronic damping control unit EGD-J250; Control unit for EGD electronically controlled damping-J250

Does anyone have any thoughts on what to check, similar experiences, etc?

I'd really appreciate any help!

[f1torrents]

Try to turn the engine over manually with a breaker bar..

[TMAN_]

Hopefully trying this tomorrow... I've only just managed to get someone to help me push it in the drive it's been on roadside and I've been trying (and hoping) to find an electrical fault in meantime

[sepheroth86]

Possible broken valve spring/dropped valve?

Is it safe to turn these engines over manually anti-clockwise?

[chrismadson]

Man, if you just had a ton of work 1000 miles ago, I would be reaching out to that shop. Might be related, might not.


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[fastboatster]

damn, 87kmiles and already needed to take the engine out to do the timing components. Hopefully this is an electrical issue and not some timing chain sprocket/camshaft adjuster bolts coming loose etc

[MSq5]

Hi all,

A few nights ago my engine cut out during driving, and I've not been able to start it since. When trying to start I get a loud click from the lower rear right side of the engine (starter area?) and my dash, MMI, lights all go out before coming back on after a second.

Video upload taken from roadside on the night:


I've ruled out battery as have tried 2 more including a brand new one... Jump starting from another car had exactly same outcome regardless if we jump to battery or under bonnet points. I've checked all of the fuses except for the ones under the ECU in engine bay which I will do shortly... Also checked all grounds in back by battery, engine bay, heads, near starter by front right tyre, etc... Battery isolator switch in boot is also good.

Car has been sat for 3 or 4 days, oil from dipstick looks clean but smells slightly of fuel, oil was changed twice including engine flush about 1000 miles ago during a recent engine out job that cost me an arm and a leg for a whole timing chain kit, pcv, supercharger cooler and engine mounts amongst other things....

Nothing I can see looks out of order, no damage to aux or sc belts, no leaks or smells or anything obvious, no melted cables, electrical connectors all seated, and all electronics are functioning as normal except when trying to start the engine.

Car is a 2010 B8 S4 3.0T at 87k miles and has been meticulously looked after (I have literally 100s of receipts), oil changes at 5k with Millers NT+ 5w40, MRC Stage 2 since 35k miles- car has never missed a beat in the 25k miles I've driven it including 40c summer through Europe or below freezing start ups. I always log via Torque pro during driving, and the log shows absolutely nothing out of the ordinary, no major DTCs reported by Torque either...

After losing power and failing to restart the engine I immediately scanned for DTCs and 5 came up, all electrical related so I'm really really hoping this is not going to be a trashed engine right after having paid for work costing me about enough for a replacement... I cleared codes but still unable to start, unsurprisingly codes have not returned:

============1==============
0471
Raw code: 01D7
ECU: 19. CAN Gateway
Status: Test conditions are met, Validated and stored in non volatile memory
Audi: Electronic damping control unit EGD-J250; Control unit for EGD electronically controlled damping-J250

============2==============
0446
Raw code: 01BE
ECU: 03. ABS control unit
Status: Pending fault present during this driving cycle, Validated and stored in non volatile memory
Audi: B105000: Function limitation due to excessive temperature
Audi: Work restriction due to insufficient voltage; Functional restriction due to undervoltage

============3==============
0955
Raw code: 03BB
ECU: 05. Authorization system for access and starting the engine
Status: Pending fault present during this driving cycle, Validated and stored in non volatile memory
Audi: Key 1

============4==============
0446
Raw code: 01BE
ECU: 14. Email system Damping controls
Status: Pending fault present during this driving cycle, Validated and stored in non volatile memory
Audi: B105000: Function limitation due to excessive temperature
Audi: Work restriction due to insufficient voltage; Functional restriction due to undervoltage

============5==============
0471
Raw code: 01D7
ECU: 55. Headlights corrector
Status: Test conditions are met, Validated and stored in non volatile memory
Audi: Electronic damping control unit EGD-J250; Control unit for EGD electronically controlled damping-J250

Does anyone have any thoughts on what to check, similar experiences, etc?

I'd really appreciate any help!

I don't think those codes are related to your issue. They seem to be related to the dynamic suspension system. If the prior owner(s) had the front dynamic suspension struts/shocks replaced with "standard" ones like Bilstein (actually a handling improvement), those codes would likely show up unless/until that module is reprogrammed and coded out.

Cleared codes often return only after 50 miles or so of driving or a certain number of keying cycles, so Im not surprised that they have not yet returned, since you can't start the engine. Have you previously scanned the ECU? If not, those codes may have been sitting there for ages.

More likely something else is going on. Perhaps something as simple as the starter or its solenoid. If the starter engaged and locked up it might behave as you describe.

Do you have manual transmission or dual clutch?

Whatever it is, were it the engine there would likely be engine soecific codes showing up on your scan.

[TMAN_]

Possible broken valve spring/dropped valve?

Is it safe to turn these engines over manually anti-clockwise?

Do you think the valves/springs could have anything to do with the timing chain job?

Man, if you just had a ton of work 1000 miles ago, I would be reaching out to that shop. Might be related, might not.

I've already asked them to take a look, when I got it back the engine was a bit noiser than I remember (though it was 3 months ago) and burned about 1.2L oil in the 1200 since getting it back... They've already said they're happy to take responsibility if it's their issue but are not responsible for the internals of my engine... Which makes me wonder if it's even a good idea to send the car back so they can prove themselves innocent regardless of the issue :(

damn, 87kmiles and already needed to take the engine out to do the timing components. Hopefully this is an electrical issue and not some timing chain sprocket/camshaft adjuster bolts coming loose etc

Yea it's relatively low mileage, I had the timing chain done mostly for preventative maintenance (...ironically) as the "start up rattle" was getting longer and longer... I would have thought timing issues would have been noticeable before catastrophic failure though? There was zero indication when it happened, no power loss, no noises, no smoke, everything smooth and normal, it happened completely out of the blue. Just checked the dashcam footage and it shows nothing except for my confusion when the engine shut off.

I don't think those codes are related to your issue. They seem to be related to the dynamic suspension system. If the prior owner(s) had the front dynamic suspension struts/shocks replaced with "standard" ones like Bilstein (actually a handling improvement), those codes would likely show up unless/until that module is reprogrammed and coded out.

Cleared codes often return only after 50 miles or so of driving or a certain number of keying cycles, so Im not surprised that they have not yet returned, since you can't start the engine. Have you previously scanned the ECU? If not, those codes may have been sitting there for ages.

More likely something else is going on. Perhaps something as simple as the starter or its solenoid. If the starter engaged and locked up it might behave as you describe.

Do you have manual transmission or dual clutch?

Whatever it is, were it the engine there would likely be engine soecific codes showing up on your scan.

This car's got the DSG. I do scan it on occasion and have never seen any of these codes - the car still has the original dynamic adjustable dampers but with KW HAS springs.

I just had a friend here and when we tried to start, we can actually see the supercharger belt budge a few mm, so at this point... sadly does not appear to be an issue with the starter or electronics.
He also scanned with VCDS but got zero codes (as I've cleared them)


Since we got the car off the road I'm going to check fuses and relays under ECU just in case, and look at spark plugs maybe try get the supercharger off if I have any fingers left on this freezing day.

I don't suppose supercharger seizure is very common, at least I've never heard anyone mention it on these 3.0T's? Could also be one of the aux pulleys, but I'm not sure if either of these would cause engine to stall and be unable to start, though...? I can't see any belt damage or rubber shavings etc :(

[TMAN_]

Hoping to get you guys' input on the spark plugs I just pulled, cyl 1 & 2 have decent amount of oily gunk... https://imgur.com/a/WGaq6zc

These have done maybe 10k miles max, look pretty normal to me for the S4...?

Also, when trying to inspect down the spark plug holes, is there anything I should be looking for?

[RoofRails]

Hoping to get you guys' input on the spark plugs I just pulled, cyl 1 & 2 have decent amount of oily gunk... https://imgur.com/a/WGaq6zc

These have done maybe 10k miles max, look pretty normal to me for the S4...?

Also, when trying to inspect down the spark plug holes, is there anything I should be looking for?

Those do not look normal to me. I see a lot of oil on the thread's. That's not typical either.

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[6SpeedS4]

I think you have a battery problem. How old is your battery ?

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[f1torrents]

Do you have a tune?
Those plugs look hot.

[TMAN_]

Those do not look normal to me. I see a lot of oil on the thread's. That's not typical either.

Bank 1 does look a bit gunky, cyl 1 and 2 with some oil on the threads... bank 2 was taken out maybe 1hr later when weather cleared up (I'm on an uncovered driveway), but to me the tops all look relatively consistent? or does that not matter? Appreciate your feedback, I don't really know what I'm doing here just trying to learn and figure things out. I haven't touched them so will take another look tomorrow hopefully water will have evaporated and we'll get a bit clearer image.

I think you have a battery problem. How old is your battery ?

I wasted my original battery trying to start too many times at roadside.. this one is brand new and I also got an external charger to try help troubleshoot. Before the new batt I also also tried another spare 12v with 1100cca, and on the roadside on the night we tried jump starting from either front jump points or rear battery... sadly no difference

Do you have a tune?
Those plugs look hot.

Yes the car has been running on MRC stage 2 for just over 50k miles of it's 87k mile life, these engines do run a bit hot though, but AFR and all other OBD logs look typical (pretty rich during acceleration) even just cruising and right up to the moment before engine shut down, nothing out of the ordinary as far as I can see comparing to other logs over my last 2 years of ownership... It could be tune related but I really doubt it? What's your thoughts?

[MSq5]

The plug tips and ground strap do look worn and "hot" almost like they need to be one heat range colder. I hope that's not detonation. But, that would show up in the logs as lean AFR and timing pull.

If you do get it to turn over and start, consider replacing the plugs and gap them per your tuner's recommendation.

[TMAN_]

Had a mechanic visit today, we've not been able to turn over the crank at all... looks like bottom end is seized... his guess is oil starvation.

I'm hoping the shop will take back the car to diagnose as it's just too coincidental for this to happen shortly after their work...

[MSq5]

Had a mechanic visit today, we've not been able to turn over the crank at all... looks like bottom end is seized... his guess is oil starvation.

I'm hoping the shop will take back the car to diagnose as it's just too coincidental for this to happen shortly after their work...

So sorry to hear this. Especially during the holiday season. Oil pump failure? Strange. No oil leaks after their work? Is the dipstick (if you have one) showing full? What did MMI show on oil level?

[TMAN_]

So sorry to hear this. Especially during the holiday season. Oil pump failure? Strange. No oil leaks after their work? Is the dipstick (if you have one) showing full? What did MMI show on oil level?

On the way back from the shop the MMI popped up with around 30-40% on the oil level reading, I didn't think much of it...

14 days later about 4-500 miles, I messaged the shop asking what level the oil was filled to (they said to max line on dipstick) because it is now reading on lowest bar (10%?) on both MMI and dipstick, and I sent them photos. I was told "it's normal" based on their experience with a 450bhp 2.0TFSI engine which consumed 1L/1000miles... They told me to top it up and do a check over longer period of time. I did note to them that my car before averaged around 1L/2000 miles (that was with a faulty pcv), and that 1L/1000 miles is what I was previously topping up because both my rear timing covers were leaking before they got the car... Anyway I agreed to top up and monitor.

Since having the car back I have topped up about 1.4L of oil at a rate pretty much around 1L/1000 miles.... Current oil reading is around 80-90%.

There are no noticeable leaks anywhere, the engine was cleaned during their work and still looks very clean both from top and bottom side...

I also noted to them that the engine was noisier than I remember (like a diesel) they confirmed the oil they used was Quantum long life oil (apparently also used by Audi). I had a spare 5L of Millers NT+ 5W40, so I drained the oil, filled in the Millers and then topped up with roughly 1L of the drained oil (this has less than 1000 miles on it at that point). Doing this actually had a big effect and engine became much quieter (at least relative to how noisy it was before) - I told them as much, to which they reply "that's interesting"...

So here we are... It looks like either a) oil pump/chain failure (assuming this is part of the timing kit?), or b) something with their work or the engine flush may have caused a blockage at some oil galley, cooler line, or at the sump pickup?

I quite literally throw every spare penny and minute at this car, I treat it right as it is the single most expensive thing I own, everybody who knows can not believe this to be a co-incidence... the problem is trying to get the same garage to take a look objectively without simply diagnosing their own innocence as the easy way out. It's only a 2-man shop and they are booked for the next 3 months, I really hope that, considering they are new and up & coming garage, also trying to build a YouTube following, that they really do try to stand by their reputation and consider this all fairly...

Still waiting to hear back since telling them it's certainly seized as we found out earlier today...

[Mfryman1]

I would rule out engine being locked up. If you take all the plugs out it should turn easily from the crank. You will need the crank adaptor to get a bite between the bolts.
crank tool.JPG
After removing all the plugs it should turn easily with a 1/2 inch ratchet. Are you a DYI type person? You may have to put it in service mode to get to the crank pulley to turn it over. If the engine is locked up I would put it back together and not tell the shop and play victim. The starter might also just be bad as you here the solenoid kick out but it does not appear to be even trying to turn. That could be a bad starter.
Why did they do an engine flush?

[Mfryman1]

I want to also mention that the oil pump drive chains are pretty simple and it would be unlikely that the chain or the pump failed. If it did not give you a warning that you had low oil pressure and tell you to shut down the engine I would be suspect that a galley to one of the mains got plugged and you have a locked crank.
See photo for the oil pump drive. This chain just has a spring loaded take up so loosing chain tension is unlikely.

oil pump chain.jpg

[Mfryman1]

By the way do not turn the engine counterclockwise as that will place all the slack on the timing chains on the incorrect side and might cause you to hit a valve to a piston, if you get the engine to turn. How did your Mechanic friend try to turn the engine? did he use the crank bolt tool? I have tried to turn mine with a strap wrench on the crank pulley with the plugs in and I could not turn it.

[TMAN_]

By the way do not turn the engine counterclockwise as that will place all the slack on the timing chains on the incorrect side and might cause you to hit a valve to a piston, if you get the engine to turn. How did your Mechanic friend try to turn the engine? did he use the crank bolt tool? I have tried to turn mine with a strap wrench on the crank pulley with the plugs in and I could not turn it.

The spark plugs are all removed, however we're unable to turn the engine just 1mm in either direction. We do not have the adapter tool so have tried turning from the rear of engine near bell housing underneath the car, according to someone in another thread this can be done 1-handed with a screwdriver, I can tell you ours would not even budge applying pressure with all our might.

The shop already knows about it, and I am waiting for them to man up and at the very least diagnose this failure after they worked on the engine...

I would rule out engine being locked up. If you take all the plugs out it should turn easily from the crank. You will need the crank adaptor to get a bite between the bolts.
crank tool.JPG
After removing all the plugs it should turn easily with a 1/2 inch ratchet. Are you a DYI type person? You may have to put it in service mode to get to the crank pulley to turn it over. If the engine is locked up I would put it back together and not tell the shop and play victim. The starter might also just be bad as you here the solenoid kick out but it does not appear to be even trying to turn. That could be a bad starter.
Why did they do an engine flush?

The starter seems to be OK, when trying to start the car I can see the sc belt "twitches" so the starter definitely seems to be applying force... But, even if the starter was bad how would that explain the engine cutting out during driving...?

The shop said they "treat" all their engines to a flush... it's not something I specifically asked for....

I want to also mention that the oil pump drive chains are pretty simple and it would be unlikely that the chain or the pump failed. If it did not give you a warning that you had low oil pressure and tell you to shut down the engine I would be suspect that a galley to one of the mains got plugged and you have a locked crank.
See photo for the oil pump drive. This chain just has a spring loaded take up so loosing chain tension is unlikely.

oil pump chain.jpg

Thanks for clarifying. I also think it's most likely something clogged (just wonder, how...) there was no oil pressure warning at all,, the shop told me they didn't touch the main block besides from the timing job and using engine flush. Could the flush have caused some blockage? Is it possible or even likely to block oil galleys during a timing chain job???

[TMAN_]

Sadly the shop is taking the stance that since they touched nothing on the bottom end, it is not their problem. They've offered me to do a teardown but at my own cost...

Can anyone help give me more information or experiences? What could have caused the bottom end to seize? I am pretty sure the failure is related to their work. I told them twice after getting the car that oil consumption has doubled and also told them the engine was running noisy... I do not believe it is a co-incidence my bottom end has seized, unfortunately I know too little about engines to say why.. All I know is that the engine was running better before, and historically has a very very solid maintenance record...

If anyone has any opinions on what could have failed here, assuming it's not a sporadic random failure, I'd really like to learn more about things to check and consider when diagnosing this...

Here's everything engine related that I was invoiced for:
- 2 x top cyl head tensioners
- 1 x main chain tensioner
- 1 x oil pump/balance shaft tensioner bracket
- 4 x chain
- 2 x bracket
- 2 x rocker cover gasket
- 1 x pcv valve
- 2 x engine mounts
- 1 x sc intercooler
- 1 x oil filter housing gasket
- 12 x intake manifold gasket
- 1 x oil filter
- 8 x oil 5w40 Quantum
- 1 x sump crush washer
- 1 x valve walnut carbon cleaning
- 8 x antifreeze
- 2 x power steering hydraulic fluid

[chrismadson]

Sadly the shop is taking the stance that since they touched nothing on the bottom end, it is not their problem. They've offered me to do a teardown but at my own cost...

Can anyone help give me more information or experiences? What could have caused the bottom end to seize? I am pretty sure the failure is related to their work. I told them twice after getting the car that oil consumption has doubled and also told them the engine was running noisy... I do not believe it is a co-incidence my bottom end has seized, unfortunately I know too little about engines to say why.. All I know is that the engine was running better before, and historically has a very very solid maintenance record...

If anyone has any opinions on what could have failed here, assuming it's not a sporadic random failure, I'd really like to learn more about things to check and consider when diagnosing this...

Here's everything engine related that I was invoiced for:
- 2 x top cyl head tensioners
- 1 x main chain tensioner
- 1 x oil pump/balance shaft tensioner bracket
- 4 x chain
- 2 x bracket
- 2 x rocker cover gasket
- 1 x pcv valve
- 2 x engine mounts
- 1 x sc intercooler
- 1 x oil filter housing gasket
- 12 x intake manifold gasket
- 1 x oil filter
- 8 x oil 5w40 Quantum
- 1 x sump crush washer
- 1 x valve walnut carbon cleaning
- 8 x antifreeze
- 2 x power steering hydraulic fluid

Just because they didn’t touch the bottom end doesn’t mean that their work did not affected it… but that being said, they absolutely touched the bottom end. If they did your chains, then they touched the sprockets in the bottom end. You don’t have to pull the heads or drop the oil pan to touch the bottom end.

Have they done any sort of actual diagnosis on the car yet? Are they just saying no because they “didn’t touch the bottom end”?

As far as your course of action goes, pull the car and get another opinion. No matter what, you will need to have a second expert diagnose the car and tell you exactly what is wrong with it to pursue any legal action and have a solid case.

Once you know exactly what is wrong and the cost to do that work, you know what your damages are. You will also know exactly what caused it. If it is clear that their work caused it, then you have a second, independent source. Make sure a ton of photos are taken along the way.

Then, you can present the evidence to the shop and see what their response is (assuming it actually is their fault). If they refuse to take responsibility, you can take the matter to small claims court. You can use the diagnosis and invoice to prove your case. You will likely need to pay for repairs so you have an actual loss as the court will likely not award you anything if you have not incurred anything.

It’s a pain in the ass, and I’m sorry it doesn’t sound like the shop is even taking the time to understand what is wrong.


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[MSq5]

^ ^ ^

Good advice. Follow it. As stated, make sure the independent shop takes lots of photo and that they put their findings in writing. Save all parts. It could have jumped timing and a valve and piston made contact. That would be obvious when the heads are pulled. And, yes the chain for the oil pump might not have been installed correctly. All speculation on my part. Oil consumption increase is confusing to me, though, given that they didn't seem to have gone into the inside of the block, unless there was a persistent oil leak. You've ruled that out. If they did something up top that blocked an oil passageway from a cylinder head back to the block, the mains and rods might have been starved of oil. I would have suspected knocking first, though.

All speculation on my part. You need a careful, documented tear down and inspection. Regrettably, you'll have to bear the front end cost of that.

[sepheroth86]

Just because they didn’t touch the bottom end doesn’t mean that their work did not affected it… but that being said, they absolutely touched the bottom end. If they did your chains, then they touched the sprockets in the bottom end. You don’t have to pull the heads or drop the oil pan to touch the bottom end.

Have they done any sort of actual diagnosis on the car yet? Are they just saying no because they “didn’t touch the bottom end”?

As far as your course of action goes, pull the car and get another opinion. No matter what, you will need to have a second expert diagnose the car and tell you exactly what is wrong with it to pursue any legal action and have a solid case.

Once you know exactly what is wrong and the cost to do that work, you know what your damages are. You will also know exactly what caused it. If it is clear that their work caused it, then you have a second, independent source. Make sure a ton of photos are taken along the way.

Then, you can present the evidence to the shop and see what their response is (assuming it actually is their fault). If they refuse to take responsibility, you can take the matter to small claims court. You can use the diagnosis and invoice to prove your case. You will likely need to pay for repairs so you have an actual loss as the court will likely not award you anything if you have not incurred anything.

It’s a pain in the ass, and I’m sorry it doesn’t sound like the shop is even taking the time to understand what is wrong.


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^ ^ ^

Good advice. Follow it. As stated, make sure the independent shop takes lots of photo and that they put their findings in writing. Save all parts. It could have jumped timing and a valve and piston made contact. That would be obvious when the heads are pulled. And, yes the chain for the oil pump might not have been installed correctly. All speculation on my part. Oil consumption increase is confusing to me, though, given that they didn't seem to have gone into the inside of the block, unless there was a persistent oil leak. You've ruled that out. If they did something up top that blocked an oil passageway from a cylinder head back to the block, the mains and rods might have been starved of oil. I would have suspected knocking first, though.

All speculation on my part. You need a careful, documented tear down and inspection. Regrettably, you'll have to bear the front end cost of that.

All good advice.

I would recommend getting a Solicitor that is familiar with automotive workshop claims involved as well.

[TMAN_]

Thanks for your help guys, am not in a great place right now so really appreciate your level-headed inputs.

I did disagree with them on the "not touched not our problem"... they maybe didn't physically touch the main block but they did touch the timing system, oil system, coolant system and performed an engine flush, so they've definitely had at least indirect contact with the entire engine...

We spoke on the phone today and they offered to take it back and pull the sump to see what's going on - right after telling me they didn't touch the bottom end, they want to check the bottom end... I presume in attempt to clear their name... I told them considering the amount I've paid for their work (more than a used low mileage engine!) I would appreciate a proper diagnosis and inspection of all fitted parts... yes this would require engine removal, but how else would they know exactly what caused the failure.... They told me if I want this it will cost me (a lot!) and they do not know how long the process will take (2 guys with a full shop booked until April, according to them it's a good week of work once they have a free lift, but I'm very reluctant considering their original job was supposed to be done in "2 weeks 4 max" and without any explanation or apologies it took them 2 months, at my own cost...)

I believe the timing to be OK based on lack of engine error codes, clean timing in datalog, and looking down spark plug holes I cannot see any unusual markings on pistons... but then again I'm no mechanic so could be entirely wrong.

Earlier I had another thought, they told me they used BG products EPR 109 (engine cleaner), MOA 110 (oil additive) and 44K 208 (fuel cleaner). I am wondering what the implications might be if they actually had forgotten to flush the EPR 109 with fresh oil... Surely this would have lead at minimum to oil break-down, possibly causing it to burn up or thinning it out enough to be burned, ergo the excess oil consumption, and possibly causing other seals etc being degraded which in turn could have cause one of the main seals or something else to lock up? Any thoughts on this? I think for the low price of an oil analysis this might be worth pursuing at least to gather more data on what may have happened.

Looks like this is going to cost me an arm and a leg, just for a shot at trying to negotiate or make a claim with these guys...

Incredibly frustrating, everything from the initial job, their delay, their attitude towards the reported oil consumption, right up to their disinterest in anything to do with helping or standing behind their work... so much for using a "registered" shop, I'd rather have taken full responsibility for the failure after having learned on the job together with a local hobbyist... and be able to afford a replacement engine!

[chrismadson]

I know this place you are in quite well… don’t beat yourself up. There is a way through and you will get there. There is a whole community of us who are right here with you and have been through the thick of it as well. Keep asking any questions that pop into your head and bounce anything off of the group if it doesn’t seem right.


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[RyanJon]

Where did you have the work done? I’m considering similar works and need to know where to avoid!

[TMAN_]

I know this place you are in quite well… don’t beat yourself up. There is a way through and you will get there. There is a whole community of us who are right here with you and have been through the thick of it as well. Keep asking any questions that pop into your head and bounce anything off of the group if it doesn’t seem right.

Thanks bud... hanging in there

Where did you have the work done? I’m considering similar works and need to know where to avoid!

I sent you it on PM as don't want to publicly shame anyone quite yet...

[TMAN_]

Just took another look at the dashcam before they disconnected it...

At 14:53 car is delivered, at 14:57 it's off the delivery trailer they are revving the tits off my car FROM COLD. At 15:01 they proceed to SEND it down their local 30 zone at 70mph (top of 2nd gear with 7200 rev limiter) literally past a primary school and speeding up on the back of other cars bragging "I bet you're scared" to the car in front.

After they bring the car back the dashcam goes dead at 15:04 (car switched off). At 18:04 (their shop closing time) the dashcam is automatically activated by the parking collision sensor when they close the door as they get in the car.... 9 seconds later the clip dies as they disconnect the dashcam...

...no further clips, the rest is history...

Wtf were they up to for SIX WEEKS!?

Their Facebook shows a photo of my car with engine out on 6th October, I collected my car on the 19th barely 2 weeks later... they had my car for a total of 8 weeks, who's willing to bet that 6 of them was spent ragging it as "my new daily" which is a direct quote from one of the guys caught on dashcam.

Cheeky buggers actually told me the car will last a while "if you take care and warm it up before, change oil, etc" no shit mate it's in good condition because I ALWAYS DID, until you...

At this point I'm more inclined to try and pursue some form of action against their neglect of my vehicle so they can fully compensate me for my payment AND a new engine...?

[djn876]

Just took another look at the dashcam before they disconnected it...

At 14:53 car is delivered, at 14:57 it's off the delivery trailer they are revving the tits off my car FROM COLD. At 15:01 they proceed to SEND it down their local 30 zone at 70mph (top of 2nd gear with 7200 rev limiter) literally past a primary school and speeding up on the back of other cars bragging "I bet you're scared" to the car in front.

After they bring the car back the dashcam goes dead at 15:04 (car switched off). At 18:04 (their shop closing time) the dashcam is automatically activated by the parking collision sensor when they close the door as they get in the car.... 9 seconds later the clip dies as they disconnect the dashcam...

...no further clips, the rest is history...

Wtf were they up to for SIX WEEKS!?

Their Facebook shows a photo of my car with engine out on 6th October, I collected my car on the 19th barely 2 weeks later... they had my car for a total of 8 weeks, who's willing to bet that 6 of them was spent ragging it as "my new daily" which is a direct quote from one of the guys caught on dashcam.

Cheeky buggers actually told me the car will last a while "if you take care and warm it up before, change oil, etc" no shit mate it's in good condition because I ALWAYS DID, until you...

At this point I'm more inclined to try and pursue some form of action against their neglect of my vehicle so they can fully compensate me for my payment AND a new engine...?

There was really zero reason to disconnect your dashcam too other than to hide their behaviors.

I would say that you have two options, the first is to contact the owner of the shop directly and try to have a discussion based on the videos, etc. and see what they will do. If he/she isn't willing to work with you at all, then I think you have some recourse, though it will still be difficult to prove that anything they did caused the failure, but it certainly points to unprofessional conduct.

Up to you if you think having an attorney have that discussion would be more prudent, depends on if you think you can remain calm enough to have that conversation, or if you think having a lawyer will just immediately turn them off and they won't be willing to do anything then.

How many miles were put on it by the shop?

Either way what a bunch of shit bags to just beat on someone's car like that, I don't care what kind of vehicle it is, they should have some respect for other people and their things. It will be interesting to see what another shop says after they get a chance to look at it.

Agree with other comments that if they did a timing job and boned it up, it could absolutely screw the engine. Especially if they messed up the oil pump part.

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[Dippy]

@TMAN_ - you've got great advice above and I'd like to highlight some of it:
1) You'll not proceed very far without spending more money. Maybe you will be able to get it back later through legal action, but that will be later.
2) You absolutely must have a 2nd opinion. I see that the car has an MRC tune. Other comments indicate that the workshop in question is not MRC (and I'd be horrified if it was) so why not ask MRC? Those guys know this engine well so even just by giving them the details on e-mail might enable them to make suggestions.
3) I believe that under our laws if this is the workshop's fault you need to give them the opportunity to put it right.

[TMAN_]

There was really zero reason to disconnect your dashcam too other than to hide their behaviors.

I would say that you have two options, the first is to contact the owner of the shop directly and try to have a discussion based on the videos, etc. and see what they will do. If he/she isn't willing to work with you at all, then I think you have some recourse, though it will still be difficult to prove that anything they did caused the failure, but it certainly points to unprofessional conduct.

Up to you if you think having an attorney have that discussion would be more prudent, depends on if you think you can remain calm enough to have that conversation, or if you think having a lawyer will just immediately turn them off and they won't be willing to do anything then.

How many miles were put on it by the shop?

Either way what a bunch of shit bags to just beat on someone's car like that, I don't care what kind of vehicle it is, they should have some respect for other people and their things. It will be interesting to see what another shop says after they get a chance to look at it.

Agree with other comments that if they did a timing job and boned it up, it could absolutely screw the engine. Especially if they messed up the oil pump part.

It's only a small shop owned 50/50 by the 2 guys who I saw working there... I've spoken to both, all they have to say is "prove we did something wrong or take us to court", when I mentioned the footage they said "and we have proof you broke the speed limit on your test drive" which is a blatant lie - my test drive was during school rush hour traffic at 3pm along the same road (and past the same school) they did their first "test drive" on. Dashcam was still unplugged at this time but I didn't notice as it's mostly hidden behind the rear view mirror.

Sadly I didn't photograph the odometer reading before delivering the car (I literally remembered just as my vehicle was taken away, ffs) but I'm fairly sure there's a couple of hundred miles on the clock. I noticed mileage was higher than I thought it would be when I picked it up but shrugged it off as a thorough test drive to bed in the new timing kit.

On that note - is anyone aware if any module in the S4 will timestamp odometer reading at certain points such as DTC codes, launch control, hitting rev limiter, battery disconnection, etc, that I could look in to?

Arguably they could have disconnected my dashcam "to save the battery" - however, considering they quoted up to 4 weeks for the job, it follows logically that a dashcam on standby mode would not drain a 920AH battery in that time...

I've talked to trading standards and a few solicitors who advised I should get an engine inspection and go from there... the trouble is proving their parts/work are the issue, or indeed their misuse of my car is what caused premature wear and failure of my engine...

[TMAN_]

@TMAN_ - you've got great advice above and I'd like to highlight some of it:
1) You'll not proceed very far without spending more money. Maybe you will be able to get it back later through legal action, but that will be later.
2) You absolutely must have a 2nd opinion. I see that the car has an MRC tune. Other comments indicate that the workshop in question is not MRC (and I'd be horrified if it was) so why not ask MRC? Those guys know this engine well so even just by giving them the details on e-mail might enable them to make suggestions.
3) I believe that under our laws if this is the workshop's fault you need to give them the opportunity to put it right.

Yes it's been some great advice, you're right it does look like it will cost me to pursue this regardless if I get any compensation or not :(

MRC aren't too far away from me but last time I asked they have very high labour costs and waiting times, it would probably make more sense to use a local garage if I can find someone knowledgeable or certified by Audi at a decent hourly rate...

I've tried to have the workshop inspect the parts they fitted but they're not interested unless I pay them, they've said they will check bottom end and tell me that it's failed, which I already know...

[djn876]

It's only a small shop owned 50/50 by the 2 guys who I saw working there... I've spoken to both, all they have to say is "prove we did something wrong or take us to court", when I mentioned the footage they said "and we have proof you broke the speed limit on your test drive" which is a blatant lie - my test drive was during school rush hour traffic at 3pm along the same road (and past the same school) they did their first "test drive" on. Dashcam was still unplugged at this time but I didn't notice as it's mostly hidden behind the rear view mirror.

Sadly I didn't photograph the odometer reading before delivering the car (I literally remembered just as my vehicle was taken away, ffs) but I'm fairly sure there's a couple of hundred miles on the clock. I noticed mileage was higher than I thought it would be when I picked it up but shrugged it off as a thorough test drive to bed in the new timing kit.

On that note - is anyone aware if any module in the S4 will timestamp odometer reading at certain points such as DTC codes, launch control, hitting rev limiter, battery disconnection, etc, that I could look in to?

Arguably they could have disconnected my dashcam "to save the battery" - however, considering they quoted up to 4 weeks for the job, it follows logically that a dashcam on standby mode would not drain a 920AH battery in that time...

I've talked to trading standards and a few solicitors who advised I should get an engine inspection and go from there... the trouble is proving their parts/work are the issue, or indeed their misuse of my car is what caused premature wear and failure of my engine...

I would agree with the battery comment, that would just be a stupid excuse. DTCs do flag mileage, so if you have some scans from immediately before you took it in, it will be flagged. In addition, I would tell them that you'll gladly accept the traffic ticket to ensure they get properly fucked over this transaction. And I doubt their heresay is enough to fine you anyway given the minor nature of the offense.

I would ask your solicitors if their misuse of your vehicle can constitute anything criminal as well. Seems like you at least have proof of that.

If nothing else it sounds like it's time to share the name of the shop and maybe even the videos on various platforms and let nature take it's course a little. Some bad press might change their mind. Don't accuse them of anything, just share your story. Sharing facts of what happened is OK, making unproven statements that they broke the car (which hopefully you can prove soon) is hard to stand by without potentially being libelous.

That being said I'm sure most folks can infer for themselves that the recent service and resultant failure are far more likely to be related than mere coincidence.

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[TMAN_]

I would agree with the battery comment, that would just be a stupid excuse. DTCs do flag mileage, so if you have some scans from immediately before you took it in, it will be flagged. In addition, I would tell them that you'll gladly accept the traffic ticket to ensure they get properly fucked over this transaction. And I doubt their heresay is enough to fine you anyway given the minor nature of the offense.

I would ask your solicitors if their misuse of your vehicle can constitute anything criminal as well. Seems like you at least have proof of that.

If nothing else it sounds like it's time to share the name of the shop and maybe even the videos on various platforms and let nature take it's course a little. Some bad press might change their mind. Don't accuse them of anything, just share your story. Sharing facts of what happened is OK, making unproven statements that they broke the car (which hopefully you can prove soon) is hard to stand by without potentially being libelous.

That being said I'm sure most folks can infer for themselves that the recent service and resultant failure are far more likely to be related than mere coincidence.
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Not fussed about their nonsensical comment of my test drive, we barely reached the speed limit stuck in traffic so even if they had recorded anything it would be worthles... Just a typical tit-for-tat playground response from them...

How would I go about retrieving old DTCs, if that's even possible? Codes have been cleared long since :( Maybe they could be stored in another module accessible to VCDS?

Just checked my uploaded Torque OBD logs from before I sent the car off, sadly they haven't recorded any mileage though...

I've not accused them yet, simply stating the facts... They surely know what they got up to... I am in the process of writing a formal letter outlining my intentions to get a refund and some compensation for half of the cost of a replacement engine, based on their recorded actions, unwillingness to diagnose a warranty claim, unjustified delays with their work, etc...

On that note, does anyone have data for the labour book hours for engine out, swap and re-fitting on the 3.0T B8 S4?

[djn876]

Not fussed about their nonsensical comment of my test drive, we barely reached the speed limit stuck in traffic so even if they had recorded anything it would be worthles... Just a typical tit-for-tat playground response from them...

How would I go about retrieving old DTCs, if that's even possible? Codes have been cleared long since :( Maybe they could be stored in another module accessible to VCDS?

Just checked my uploaded Torque OBD logs from before I sent the car off, sadly they haven't recorded any mileage though...

I've not accused them yet, simply stating the facts... They surely know what they got up to... I am in the process of writing a formal letter outlining my intentions to get a refund and some compensation for half of the cost of a replacement engine, based on their recorded actions, unwillingness to diagnose a warranty claim, unjustified delays with their work, etc...

On that note, does anyone have data for the labour book hours for engine out, swap and re-fitting on the 3.0T B8 S4?

Unfortunately if the DTCs are cleared not much you can do, at least that I know. And yeah I wasn't saying you blamed them for anything, more just saying you sharing facts about the transaction is perfectly fine and they couldn't come after you saying you are trying to ruin their reputation or anything. Honestly you are handling it pretty well I think and hopefully this works out OK for you.

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[Dippy]

Sounds like your relationship with this workshop is now so poor that it is probably not a good idea to pay them to investigate the issue. If you have only spoken to them then you ought to try to get something in writing - "prove we did something wrong or take us to court" is the sort of evidence you do need in court in order to demonstrate that you attempted to get them to resolve the issue. That then leaves you with having to pay for your own investigation to get to a point where the cause is known and the best resolution - with cost - can be recommended. Then you would need to go back to them to give them a final chance to repair. If they refuse then you can get the work done elsewhere and try to get them to pay using the small claims court. Of course this is a risk so the first step is to get an estimate for the cost of an investigation (including documenting it to a level that would be acceptable as evidence in court) so that you can decide if you want to proceed at all.

[TMAN_]

Sounds like your relationship with this workshop is now so poor that it is probably not a good idea to pay them to investigate the issue. If you have only spoken to them then you ought to try to get something in writing - "prove we did something wrong or take us to court" is the sort of evidence you do need in court in order to demonstrate that you attempted to get them to resolve the issue. That then leaves you with having to pay for your own investigation to get to a point where the cause is known and the best resolution - with cost - can be recommended. Then you would need to go back to them to give them a final chance to repair. If they refuse then you can get the work done elsewhere and try to get them to pay using the small claims court. Of course this is a risk so the first step is to get an estimate for the cost of an investigation (including documenting it to a level that would be acceptable as evidence in court) so that you can decide if you want to proceed at all.

Yes well to be honest I'm not interested in taking the car back to them everything considered!

I'm going to have to front the cost of diagnosis, if it's their problem I will get the engineer to write a report and send it to them, along with any parts they want from the car to return to TPS, and then I'll have to get them to compensate for the parts and damages and labour costs - assuming it's something they did... It's not going to be quick or easy but hey I have plenty of free time on my hands these days, without my pride and joy...

I've been told by citizens advice that I don't need to take it back to them. Due to inconvenience of their distance from me, the fact they "are too busy" to finish work in a timely manner, and they have not been able to give me a date when requested to diagnose the issue.

I'm looking at https://tps.trade/terms-and-conditions-warranty and a the bottom I see "VWG shall have no liability for any other losses, costs or financial claims"

Well the shop never mentioned this... What am I supposed to do with a new chain or tensioner if the new part has failed and blown the engine..? Hang it round my neck?

Does anyone have any experience with this? What would be the usual process if an installed part has failed and caused further damages?

[TMAN_]

It's gone nowhere so I've posted the dashcam footage for those who are interested

VAG Technic customer car abuse: https://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/948391

Next step is actually to get a reputable shop to identify the root cause and bring along an expert witness to write a court report as suggested by my solicitor.