ZF8 Jerkiness after Transmission fluid change

[NikolaZ]

Hello,

So I've bought a 2015 Q5 3.0 with the ZF8 transmission.
The Car has 175000 km on it.

I have just changed the oil of the transmission, 2 differentials and transfer case. I've Used original audi oil for the difs and the transfer case and Lifeguard ZF8 fluid for the gearbox. Everything is with the correct specifications. ZF8 Service kit was used!

Now the problem is that when I am driving the car in D and it is in 2nd gear, and I floor it, the gearbox starts jerking and doesn't know on which gear to shift. It eventually shifts to 3rd. But the jerkiness can lead to a P0780 code which is: Shift Malfunction.

Anyone faced this problem after transmission fluid change ? Will Gearbox adaptation reset from VCDS fix anything ? I've read alot of post suggesting that this is one way to fix any abnormal gear shifting after transmission fluid change.

I will try the Trottle adaptation reset tomorrow.

[djn876]

That's a long way past the recommended interval. Sometimes when you wait too long, and then put in new fluid, the new fluid breaks up a lot of the deposits and things and ends up causing problems.

Did you follow all of the ZF instructions regarding fill level, temperature, shifting through gears, etc..prior to driving? If not likely the trans wasn't filled properly and you should follow the fill instructions from ZF.

If you did that, I would verify the level is still good, and then you can reset adaptations in VCDS. Doing a throttle adaptation (which it does every time you turn off the car anyway if you listen) isn't going to help that condition. If it started immediately after the service, it's related to the service.

That code is a rationality check, it basically is saying the gear ratio it is detecting is not the one it is expecting. Did you decide anything in VCDS or anything like that?

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Attachment 251632

[hahnmgh63]

And double check your fill level. After filling I drive the car around the block and put it on the lift, let it cool down enough to check the level again. To get it perfect it really takes that short drive and a re-check. Audi says it's right when it just drips out of the fill hole between 35'C and 45'C, ZF gives a wider 30'C~50'C. I try to have the plug in no later than 40'C. Many have always said that a ZF or other Autobox will tolerate slightly higher fill level but not a slightly lower.

[NikolaZ]

The oil in the transmission has been changed before. Oil level is ok as there is 1.5 liters left from the 9 liter kit quantity.

[Discipulus]

The oil in the transmission has been changed before. Oil level is ok as there is 1.5 liters left from the 9 liter kit quantity.

How does that add up exactly?
There may be 9 liters in the kit but only about 5 liters can be drained if you follow the guide, which includes changing the filter.

The other remaining 4 liters most folks usually drive around a week or so and then just drain 4 liters and fill 4 liters to use all 9 in the kit.

But there's no way you normally can drain and fill 7.5 liters out of 9 unless you have a trick we should add to our DIY guide.

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[JLAllroad]

How does that add up exactly?
There may be 9 liters in the kit but only about 5 liters can be drained if you follow the guide, which includes changing the filter.

The other remaining 4 liters most folks usually drive around a week or so and then just drain 4 liters and fill 4 liters to use all 9 in the kit.

But there's no way you normally can drain and fill 7.5 liters out of 9 unless you have a trick we should add to our DIY guide.

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Or, it was overfilled.


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[NikolaZ]

I cannot confirm if it was overfilled or not. The service shop is following the procedure. They have done a lot of ZF8 oil changes.

I will do the adaptation reset today and drive the car without pushing it.

Next week I will go to a specific shop for in-depth diagnostics and will check the oil level.

As I mentioned this is not the first time the oil has been changed. If it was the first time, the oil would have been nasty, which is not the case.

[djn876]

Agreed it sounds like they may have way overfilled it. Personally I wouldn't drive it other than to the shop if you can't check it yourself.

Overfill can be just as bad as underfilling.

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[NikolaZ]

Talked with the Shop, they confirmed that the gearbox is not overfilled. I've also asked a guy that is repairing audi gearbox for 10 years and he said that it is not overfilled.

I've reset the adaptation and will be driving without pushing the car.

How many miles does the gearbox need to adapt ?

I've found some info about the cause of the jerkiness.

(From VW/Audi SSP 385 Pg. 71, referenced by SSP 457)
"The fresh ATF alters the friction coefficient of the clutches, which in turn affects gear-shifting. The adaptation program has adapted the clutch control parameters to the frictional characteristics of the old ATF. Due to the vehicles high mileage, the adaptation cycles are already very long. The gearbox cannot adapt to the new ATF within an acceptable period of time. This impairs shift quality and reduces the useful life of the clutches. In this case, the adaptation values have to be deleted and an adaptation run carried out."

[JLAllroad]

Talked with the Shop, they confirmed that the gearbox is not overfilled. I've also asked a guy that is repairing audi gearbox for 10 years and he said that it is not overfilled.

I've reset the adaptation and will be driving without pushing the car.

How many miles does the gearbox need to adapt ?

I've found some info about the cause of the jerkiness.

Did you ask how they put in 2.5L more than anyone else that did this service on a properly warmed up transmission, level surface, cycles through the gears?


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[6SpeedS4]

Got the same code shortly after changing the fluid. Flat bedded it to my cousins shop and everything checked out. Drained 5L and filled with 5L. I've since driven it 1000 miles without issue and the one time it thru the code it wasn't jerky it simply wouldn't downshift.

Fwiw, I did do the adaptation process. 2014 SQ5 with 40K miles.

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[JayCar]

Mine is (over)due (94K mi), you guys aren’t making me feel good about it. lol

[NikolaZ]

@JayCar Well mine is at 108k miles and has been changed. But when was the last time it was changed I have no idea.
Hm will Audi Canada give me that information now when I own the car ?

[Qboost]

Hm will Audi Canada give me that information now when I own the car ?

For the US, I was able to log into https://www.audiusa.com/myaudi click on the service tab and see the work that was done at the dealership.

[m4gician]

Just changed my fluid at 130k km on my 6 speed tiptronic and it runs super butter smooth. I'll change it again at around 190k to 200k km which at the pace I'm driving, won't be for like 4 years.

[MSq5]

The oil in the transmission has been changed before. Oil level is ok as there is 1.5 liters left from the 9 liter kit quantity.

We are still trying to figure out how they used 7.5L. A drain and fill, with filter change, including the second "top off" is only 4.0-4.5L done according to the ZF instructions, even allowing for some spillage. Did they drain again after running and mixing to dilute, then refill? I did that to get more of the old fluid out, but then it ends up using all 9L. I think your shop kept 3L. You should have gotten 4.5 back. Ask for the other 3.

Trans adaptation ought to fix your shifting issue.

Show your shop this:

[JLAllroad]

We are still trying to figure out how they used 7.5L. A drain and fill, with filter change, including the second "top off" is only 4.5L done according to the ZF instructions. Did they drain again after running and mixing to dilute, then refill? I did that to get more of the old fluid out, but then it ends up using all 9L. I think your shop kept 3L. You should have gotten 4.5 back. Ask for the other 3.

Trans adaptation ought to fix your shifting issue.

Ding, this ^^^


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[NikolaZ]

So the Kit is coming with 7l of oil. They have drained out 5.7L and Filled in the same amount.

I did reset the adaptation, but yesterday the same thing happened. I am getting angry cuz 1 oil change, changed the whole car...

Also found out that the version of my gearbox is 1003 and there is a TSB with number: 37 16 69 2029305/12 September 30, 2016 So I have contacted a guy that is really good at diagnostics and software updates, so he will be able to update it to 1004.

[bb-tt]

Mine is (over)due (94K mi), you guys aren’t making me feel good about it. lol

did mine at ~85k no issues. posted the adaption drive procedure in another thread here. i also did mine twice 1st time filter and fluid 2nd 1000 miles later just drained and refilled to get more of the older fluid (roughly 4 liter in tq conv) out after mixing with the 1st change. running some of my quickest times since changing fluid in my 2.0 avant.

[JayCar]

did mine at ~85k no issues. posted the adaption drive procedure in another thread here. i also did mine twice 1st time filter and fluid 2nd 1000 miles later just drained and refilled to get more of the older fluid (roughly 4 liter in tq conv) out after mixing with the 1st change. running some of my quickest times since changing fluid in my 2.0 avant.

Good to know. That's actually what I was thinking of doing as well.

[NikolaZ]

So far, from the granny style of driving that I am doing, the gears are shifting super smooth. I have contacted a guy that is doing vag diagnostics and updates. I will go see him tomorrow and he will update my gearbox software to version 1004. I will ask him to check the Adaptation Values. I guess I will have to reset the adaptations again after the software update is performed. My only concern is that I have no idea what is going on in the transmission. The oil level is fine, the filter is ZF original, fluid is ZF lifeguard 8.

I will drive it like that for 2 more weeks without pushing it, and after that will go and check with someone that is repairing gearboxes.

[NikolaZ]

Did an Update to the gearbox and another adaptation Reset, so far it is not that bad, but still got the kick from 2nd to 3rd. Have to do more testing tomorrow. For now the Gearbox malfunction isn't coming up.
I will drive it like that until next month and then will go to some diagnostics guy in my home town.


Edit: Now I am getting another error code P2704 Transmission Friction Element E Apply Time Range/Performance

So i guess it is time for better diagnostics.

[djn876]

Really just sounds like they didn't do the service right or something. I would get another fluid/filter change and stop messing with it. A lot cheaper than a new transmission.

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[NikolaZ]

True that. Planning on servicing it next month in another shop. My cousin know some shop that is doing gearbox reapairs and diagnostics. So I will leave it with them.
It seems like they either spilled alot of oil over the gearbox or it is leaking from somewhere, cuz every time i go near the car i can smell the oil and it is a really distinguished smell.

[TexasDfwS4]

How did this turn out if you don’t mind me asking.

[NikolaZ]

I am still driving it like that. Next month will leave it for diagnostics and another oil change. I am just not flooring it on 2nd, because it causes a rough upshift.

[djn876]

Did you verify it's not leaking oil at least? I would strongly consider either not driving it, or getting it looked at sooner if you don't look know what to look for or don't have the equipment to do so. It just sounds like something is t right with the trans and you could be damaging it beyond a simple fluid change, the little bit of inconvenience far outweighs the cost of a trans rebuild.

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[NikolaZ]

I have booked an appointment for Thursday to do diagnostics. I have checked the gearbox for leaks and there aren't any. The Guy said it is highly doubtable the problem will be fixed with oil change :( I still have high hopes as the code I am getting is too vague. IS a machine oil change a good idea after the last one, which was made according to the ZF procedure ?

[MSq5]

To me it is simple. Your ZF8 was fine before the fluid change. It's not now. Connect the dots. Yes, get the diagnostics and a careful inspection done then repeat the drain and refill with someone who knows ZF8 transmissions.

It remains possible that it was severely underfilled and damaged from lack of fluid to some internal parts.

[NikolaZ]

Yes I know it is simple, but it pisses me off how a single oil change can f*ck up a gearbox. The Shop is not to blame. It is more likely that the fluid is bad. I will keep you updated when I have some news.

[djn876]

Yes I know it is simple, but it pisses me off how a single oil change can f*ck up a gearbox. The Shop is not to blame. It is more likely that the fluid is bad. I will keep you updated when I have some news.

What do you mean the fluid is bad? As in you waited too long to change it?

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[NikolaZ]

No I mean that it can be fake.

[djn876]

Fake fluid is really a thing? Was it stuff the shop ordered or you ordered? If it was stuff you ordered, where from? I'm yet to hear of counterfeit trans fluid, seems like a pretty specific industry lol. I get what you are saying if you think the shop just dumped in whatever trans fluid they had though.

It is significantly more likely the shop it was at simply didn't add enough fluid. I wouldn't throw in the towel on the trans either. These are very durable units.

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[scsu]

Fake fluid is really a thing? Was it stuff the shop ordered or you ordered? If it was stuff you ordered, where from? I'm yet to hear of counterfeit trans fluid, seems like a pretty specific industry lol. I get what you are saying if you think the shop just dumped in whatever trans fluid they had though.

It is significantly more likely the shop it was at simply didn't add enough fluid. I wouldn't throw in the towel on the trans either. These are very durable units.

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Yes, in eastern Europe fake fluids are really a thing. So is counterfeit refrigerate. I personally ran into fake engine oil (watered-down molasses), and R-134 that was cut with a flammable gas. Couple of AC systems went boom before it was discovered.

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[MSq5]

Or the shop may have simply assumed that real ZF Lifeguard transmission fluid is all the same. They may have put in ZF5 Lifeguard or ZF6 Lifeguard fluid instead of ZF8 Lifeguard. They are not the same.

https://aftermarket.zf.com/go/en/aft...l-change-kits/

[JLAllroad]

Or they filled it cold and it’s overfilled. Remember, they added more fluid than anyone else on a drain a filter change.


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[NikolaZ]

They have added 5.6 Liters, the Kit is 7Liters. I have bought the Kit from a guy that distributes audi original parts with a discount, but that doesn't mean it can't be fake

And yes @djn876 In eastern Europe there are a lot of fake stuff: Alcohol, fuel, oil, Women

[JLAllroad]

They have added 5.6 Liters, the Kit is 7Liters. I have bought the Kit from a guy that distributes audi original parts with a discount, but that doesn't mean it can't be fake

And yes @djn876 In eastern Europe there are a lot of fake stuff: Alcohol, fuel, oil, Women

You said, 9L with 1.5L left.IMG_3904.jpg


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[MSq5]

They have added 5.6 Liters, the Kit is 7Liters. I have bought the Kit from a guy that distributes audi original parts with a discount, but that doesn't mean it can't be fake

And yes @djn876 In eastern Europe there are a lot of fake stuff: Alcohol, fuel, oil, Women

You said they returned unused fluid to you. Can you take a photo of the bottle and post it? I remain concerned they used ZF5 or ZF6 fluid rather than ZF8.

And, I don't know why you are repeatedly defending a shop that magically manages to get more fluid into the transmission than any of us or ZF states is only 4L, maybe 4.5L allowing for some spillage.

[NikolaZ]

You said, 9L with 1.5L left.IMG_3904.jpg


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Because I thought there are only kits with 9 bottles, but apparently there are other with 7.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/264485185...QAAOSwJxVfwkbg


MSq5 I am not defending anyone, they are good at what they are doing and they were recomended by a guy that has made full rebuild of a 3.0tfsi engine in their shop.They saved my brake callipers, which had broken bleed nipples.

I have checked the bottles, as I was looking for the date stamp and they are ZF8 for sure.

Also I have found that people have put even 6 liters inside. Looked into the thread: ZF8 Transmission- NOT Lifetime fluid.

I am calling the gearbox mechaninc tomorrow morning.