Tuning potential 3.0 tfsi vs 4.0 Tfsi

[James115]

Hello, what is the maximum power with standard internal components you can reach in both the engines? I mean the s6 engine vs the 3.0 supercharged
After all the v8 is the same of the Urus

[IssaWrapVinyl]

Hello, what is the maximum power with standard internal components you can reach in both the engines? I mean the s6 engine vs the 3.0 supercharged
After all the v8 is the same of the Urus

You’ll max out the 3 liter at about 500hp. You’ll max out a 4 liter at 690-700 before shit hits the fan in a S6. If u wanna be safe... add every cooling mod possible because the 4 liter is naturally a hot engine bay. Hot air intakes that everyone runs are detrimental if you drive the car daily and deal with heavy traffic. The 4 liter is internal sound to about 800-1000 hp if u spend the about $10-13k in mods to make sure you won’t lean out and wreck the block. The 4.0 V8 is a thing of beauty Audi went to the moon with this motor. But they’re finicky and you’ll likely blow the transmission up in both motors before you blow the block the 7sp DSG is garbage. Coming from. A tech who not only has been working at Audi/VW for 5 + years, my S6 got new turbos, brand new $17k trans, brand new rear diff, new motor mounts, to the tune of $30,000 in repairs. So I’d say I’m safe now but most others are not.


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[gk1]

It has probably be covered before somewhere, but anyway....
I think maybe the actual maximum of either is still unknown as no one has pushed it that far...maybe 800HP?
If you want to talk theoretical OTS tune maximum then maybe just choose any tuners numbers for each.
S6 4.0T Stage 2 100 octane ~610HP or Stage III 100 octane ~670HP
A6 3.0T stage II+ dual pulley on 100 octane ~525HP

The bigger difference (I think) is in torque.
The S6 will gets to over 700 lb-ft, but the 3.0T caps out at about 450.
Mind you I am not talking about delivery of that torque S/C vs Turbo just that the twins make more maximum torque than the screws.

AFAIK the Urus has a Lambo tuned version of the newer 4.0T shared with the RS6, RSQ7, RSQ8 making 640 HP and 625 lb-ft

[hunter_killer]

You’ll max out the 3 liter at about 500hp. You’ll max out a 4 liter at 690-700 before shit hits the fan in a S6. If u wanna be safe... add every cooling mod possible because the 4 liter is naturally a hot engine bay. Hot air intakes that everyone runs are detrimental if you drive the car daily and deal with heavy traffic. The 4 liter is internal sound to about 800-1000 hp if u spend the about $10-13k in mods to make sure you won’t lean out and wreck the block. The 4.0 V8 is a thing of beauty Audi went to the moon with this motor. But they’re finicky and you’ll likely blow the transmission up in both motors before you blow the block the 7sp DSG is garbage. Coming from. A tech who not only has been working at Audi/VW for 5 + years, my S6 got new turbos, brand new $17k trans, brand new rear diff, new motor mounts, to the tune of $30,000 in repairs. So I’d say I’m safe now but most others are not.


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The 3.0 has been pushed past 500hp without a problem. Fueling has kept it around 500 but it’s not been maxed out. There’s some S4’s making close to 500whp and one that I saw making over that.


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[Burkeomatic]

On the 3.0 and the RS variants, the transmissions are nigh on indestructable from what I have read. The 4.0 seem to be limited by how much money you can throw at them, while the 3.0 is limited by the charger and the fueling.

I am particularly interested in the 3.0t, as there doesn't seem to be failures caused by sheer power, mostly poor fueling, oiling, and cooling. Like there doesn't seem to be a "you will break a rod at around XXX whp" limit. Although, I usually tend to find those limits, like in one car I owned, the limit, was around 250whp, but I was running nearly 300whp (triple the stock output) for a while before it finally ventilated the block so I don't think there is a "Limit" per say, but there is a redzone where you are on borrowed time.

We need better fueling (like some dual hpfp conversion or some secondary injectors) and better charging solutions (like twincharging, or an upgraded supercharger) to explore the limits of the 3.0t.

It is a shame audi crippled both cars with barely adequate for stock charge cooling, and made upgrading those even harder. High IATs are a fact of life for us, and are always going to hurt performance.

[p3u]

You’ll max out the 3 liter at about 500hp. You’ll max out a 4 liter at 690-700 before shit hits the fan in a S6. If u wanna be safe... add every cooling mod possible because the 4 liter is naturally a hot engine bay. Hot air intakes that everyone runs are detrimental if you drive the car daily and deal with heavy traffic. The 4 liter is internal sound to about 800-1000 hp if u spend the about $10-13k in mods to make sure you won’t lean out and wreck the block. The 4.0 V8 is a thing of beauty Audi went to the moon with this motor. But they’re finicky and you’ll likely blow the transmission up in both motors before you blow the block the 7sp DSG is garbage. Coming from. A tech who not only has been working at Audi/VW for 5 + years, my S6 got new turbos, brand new $17k trans, brand new rear diff, new motor mounts, to the tune of $30,000 in repairs. So I’d say I’m safe now but most others are not.


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We've been over 600HP on the 3.0t for a while now and 500HP happened ~5 years ago. The platform is still developing to go well beyond that in the next year or so.

[Burkeomatic]

We've been over 600HP on the 3.0t for a while now and 500HP happened ~5 years ago. The platform is still developing to go well beyond that in the next year or so.

I know your fast, do you have any more info on the 600hp builds. As far as development, I don't know the specifics and what has been tried or not. I know pre blower meth is a thing, but what about pre blower fuel? I know of a particular kit for miatas, (I have extensive knowledge building, blowing up, then successfully making power on Mazda BP motors) that uses a pre blower fuel injector to both cool and provide extra fuel. It just "T"s into the factory fuel line and you never have to worry about your injection running out, and works super with E blends. The guy that produces the kit calls it "ecool" and he gets ridiculed for it by many, and I was one at one point. On those particular cars, there aren't packaging constraints, and you can run the most optimal set up, an Air to Air intercooler. However, the proof is in the pudding. There are guys throwing down 300+whp on a 1.8 liter on a MP62 blower without an intercooler, E85 is involved though. He has since moved to the TVS 900 blower though, so probably more potential. That would be 500whp on our set up, and we have some intercooling and a more efficient blower. That recipe looks like it could yield a pretty reliable and consistent 600whp with no need to keep refilling meth reservoirs, less long term added expense, and solve part of our fuel issues as long as the LPFP can keep up.

https://www.fastforwardsuperchargers...rger-info.html

[James115]

It has probably be covered before somewhere, but anyway....
I think maybe the actual maximum of either is still unknown as no one has pushed it that far...maybe 800HP?
If you want to talk theoretical OTS tune maximum then maybe just choose any tuners numbers for each.
S6 4.0T Stage 2 100 octane ~610HP or Stage III 100 octane ~670HP
A6 3.0T stage II+ dual pulley on 100 octane ~525HP

The bigger difference (I think) is in torque.
The S6 will gets to over 700 lb-ft, but the 3.0T caps out at about 450.
Mind you I am not talking about delivery of that torque S/C vs Turbo just that the twins make more maximum torque than the screws.

AFAIK the Urus has a Lambo tuned version of the newer 4.0T shared with the RS6, RSQ7, RSQ8 making 640 HP and 625 lb-ft

I guess the 4.0 Tfsi is the same CEUC: Audi S6 C7, S7

[James115]

Anyway, my question is because I have bought an A6 3.0 tfsi and I was thinking if I did a mistake because I could have taken the s6,
But after all I do not want to push the car at more than 450 cv.
Is the 4.0 dry sump?
It would be interesting to compare the Audi 4.0 tfsi with the Mercedes 4.0 biturbo, the Ferrari 4.0 and the McLaren 4.0
Actually all these engines have around 800 cv versions.

[hunter_killer]

Anyway, my question is because I have bought an A6 3.0 tfsi and I was thinking if I did a mistake because I could have taken the s6,
But after all I do not want to push the car at more than 450 cv.
Is the 4.0 dry sump?
It would be interesting to compare the Audi 4.0 tfsi with the Mercedes 4.0 biturbo, the Ferrari 4.0 and the McLaren 4.0
Actually all these engines have around 800 cv versions.

Pretty sure the MB and McLaren 4.0 are the same engines as McLaren has been using MB for awhile, unless McLaren uses different internals or something it’s still a MB biturbo.


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[p3u]

Pretty sure the MB and McLaren 4.0 are the same engines as McLaren has been using MB for awhile, unless McLaren uses different internals or something it’s still a MB biturbo.


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Mercedes doesn’t make any engine for McLaren. Ricardo is the sole manufacturer of engines for the entire McLaren line up.

[gk1]

Anyway, my question is because I have bought an A6 3.0 tfsi and I was thinking if I did a mistake because I could have taken the s6,
But after all I do not want to push the car at more than 450 cv.
Is the 4.0 dry sump?
It would be interesting to compare the Audi 4.0 tfsi with the Mercedes 4.0 biturbo, the Ferrari 4.0 and the McLaren 4.0
Actually all these engines have around 800 cv versions.

It's kinda apples and oranges....Audi 4.0T is one of the lowest power stock 4.0 biturbo around... comparing to a Lambo, Ferrari, Mclaren isn't really a fair comparison in anything other that displacement and number of turbos....
Even having an S6 I'd say the A6 3.0T is more drivable in most ordinary situations that are not unlimited Autostrada level and once tuned even nicer. Don't get me wrong the 4.0T is nice, but in around town and stop and go the 3.0T is IMO better.
The S6 (at least in the US) gets you niceties such as air suspension, but I believe in Italy you could get that as an option on a 3.0T.
...and no the 4.0T is not a dry sump application...even in the RS7.

[hunter_killer]

Mercedes doesn’t make any engine for McLaren. Ricardo is the sole manufacturer of engines for the entire McLaren line up.

Then was it based off the MB 4.0? I thought I had read not long ago it was a MB 4.0 biturbo they used. I must be mistaken.


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[p3u]

Then was it based off the MB 4.0? I thought I had read not long ago it was a MB 4.0 biturbo they used. I must be mistaken.


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Mercedes, McLaren and Ricardo have zero relationship.

Aston Martin uses Mercedes engines, maybe you're thinking of them.

[Trevorshackelfo]

One thing to also consider is the noise, what do you want to be your soundtrack? I personally have had N/A cam'd, straight piped v8s in my past and it was an awesome experience, but I wanted to try something else and hearing the SC on the 3.0ts breach 20,000 rpms through a tunnel is just pure visceral mechanical symphony. I purposely dont have an exhaust just so I can hear it sing all the time!

Not that the 4.0t's dont also have an amazing sounds track but it's a wholly different experience.

[James115]

Mercedes, McLaren and Ricardo have zero relationship.

Aston Martin uses Mercedes engines, maybe you're thinking of them.

May be he is talking about the F1 team McLaren which uses the Mercedes engine.
The engine used in their super car is derived from the Nissan VRH 35, used by Nissan in the ‘Courage Competition ‘ for the lemans 24 hours in 1998

[WatchMeSpend]

One thing to also consider is the noise, what do you want to be your soundtrack? I personally have had N/A cam'd, straight piped v8s in my past and it was an awesome experience, but I wanted to try something else and hearing the SC on the 3.0ts breach 20,000 rpms through a tunnel is just pure visceral mechanical symphony. I purposely dont have an exhaust just so I can hear it sing all the time!

Not that the 4.0t's dont also have an amazing sounds track but it's a wholly different experience.

How about a high compression V8 with solid lifters and a straight cut gear blower with a lopey surging idle… with the smell of burned C16 coming from the tailpipes…

[hunter_killer]

Mercedes, McLaren and Ricardo have zero relationship.

Aston Martin uses Mercedes engines, maybe you're thinking of them.

Ah that’s what I was thinking of! I got Aston Martin and McLaren mixed up, thank you for that.


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[James115]

From what I know the ea389 V6 and the 4.0 tfsi are part of the modular engine family,
V8/v6. And the ea387 is similar to the ea389

[James115]

You’ll max out the 3 liter at about 500hp. You’ll max out a 4 liter at 690-700 before shit hits the fan in a S6. If u wanna be safe... add every cooling mod possible because the 4 liter is naturally a hot engine bay. Hot air intakes that everyone runs are detrimental if you drive the car daily and deal with heavy traffic. The 4 liter is internal sound to about 800-1000 hp if u spend the about $10-13k in mods to make sure you won’t lean out and wreck the block. The 4.0 V8 is a thing of beauty Audi went to the moon with this motor. But they’re finicky and you’ll likely blow the transmission up in both motors before you blow the block the 7sp DSG is garbage. Coming from. A tech who not only has been working at Audi/VW for 5 + years, my S6 got new turbos, brand new $17k trans, brand new rear diff, new motor mounts, to the tune of $30,000 in repairs. So I’d say I’m safe now but most others are not.


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Honestly I do have the dsg on the Q5 TDI 163 cv - 400Nm of torque is a 2015.
And now on the A6 2012, I had Many other cars with the ZF 8 shift, the DSG is very quick to shift, the shifting is really soft, I love this gear, where the ZF 8 was slow and more similar to a CVT.
Why you say that is garbage? Yes can’t afford high torque but this is normal for a DSG, the ZF un the first version 6 speed which I had on the BMW 530d and then in the x6 35 d was able to handle maximum 600 Nm of torque

[James115]

Moreover the ZF also at the beginning suffered many failure at around 90/100 k km

[janhe]

The S6 (at least in the US) gets you niceties such as air suspension, but I believe in Italy you could get that as an option on a 3.0T.

Correct. I have AAS on my 2012 A6 3.0TFSI. Was an option in Europe..

[James115]

Correct. I have AAS on my 2012 A6 3.0TFSI. Was an option in Europe..

Yes I also have the sport but non air suspension

[IssaWrapVinyl]

To get a 3.0 past 500hp will cost significantly more than making a 4.0 700hp. . How much is the ported blower, oh wait & don’t forget to upgrade the heat xchanger on the blower or you’ll melt it. for $7500 bucks the 4.0 has 700-750hp. $7500 on a 3.0 only pays for the blower. The 4.0 is the first motor where Audi was able to push the motor further back in the engine bay. With suspension mods, they naturally handle better than any 3.0L models. When you buy a S4 or S5. You have to know these models were marketed to sell to a younger audience. You’re rarely going to find a used one that hasn’t been beat to shit and or well maintained with the previous owners driving habits. Not saying the 3.0 is bad. THERE IS NO REPLACEMENT FOR DISPLACEMENT. You got guys turboing 3.0s. When you can buy a 4.0 that has turbos and compression ratio that is low enough for turbo boost. Downside the 7sp dsg is a weak point and so are the turbos.


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[IssaWrapVinyl]

Oh and BTW, most RS parts are interchangeable, fuel pumps turbos, intake manifolds. You can model your standard 4.0 after a RS 4.0, or you can completely swap the RS POWERTRAIN into any A6 - A7 - S6 - S7. Along with the ECU. There is no comparison the sky is really the limit with the 4.0, the 3.0 has too much ground to cover to keep up with a 4.0. When my car was stock dual pulley & single pulley cars couldn’t beat me. Stage 1 - 2 tunes on 4.0 would’ve been an embarrassment to a 3 liter if I was still into street racing. Let alone what E85 and stage 1 on 4.0 now. 3.0 could never.


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[hunter_killer]

Where are you finding a ported blower going for $7500? A core is can be found for 200-300, porting can be up to $2k for most porting The new blowers coming out for the 3.0T platform are gonna be up there in price but they’ll be a huge improvement over the factory one. You have to upgrade the HX on the 4.0T as well or you’ll be blowing up engines faster than the 3.0T. I’ve watched videos of a stage 2 single pulley S4 beat a stage 2 s6 from a dig and not get caught. Same S4 beat a C7 Z06 as well. The 4.0 is a great engine but they have a lot of problems and heat soaking is one of them. At the end of the day it depends on how deep of pockets you have to play with. Neither engine bad, just that the 3.0T is behind in the aftermarket support compared to the 4.0.


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[Audisthesia]

It has probably be covered before somewhere, but anyway....
I think maybe the actual maximum of either is still unknown as no one has pushed it that far...maybe 800HP?
If you want to talk theoretical OTS tune maximum then maybe just choose any tuners numbers for each.
S6 4.0T Stage 2 100 octane ~610HP or Stage III 100 octane ~670HP
A6 3.0T stage II+ dual pulley on 100 octane ~525HP

The bigger difference (I think) is in torque.
The S6 will gets to over 700 lb-ft, but the 3.0T caps out at about 450.
Mind you I am not talking about delivery of that torque S/C vs Turbo just that the twins make more maximum torque than the screws.

AFAIK the Urus has a Lambo tuned version of the newer 4.0T shared with the RS6, RSQ7, RSQ8 making 640 HP and 625 lb-ft

Actually Klasen motors has done several 4.0T RS6 putting out 1000hp+

[fastboatster]

I'd pick 4.0T in this situation, no questions. More power in a same chassis, more fun and many other perks like DS1. 4.0TTs have been pushed well over 1000+hp overseas. 600hp 3.0Ts are basically almost a record and who knows how long they are going to last at that power level - perhaps burn an exhaust valve due to extremely high EGTs all high hp 3.0Ts seems to run. To me, the 3.0T is a big disappointment. It doesn't seem to be a lot easier to maintain than 4.0TT, but has a lot less power potential - timing chains/tensioners are all in the back, replacing cats on the B8 chassis is a non-trivial task, lots of stuff packed in the V valley, too. Maybe intake valve carbon cleaning is easier, though. Plus, it's a V6, just like in some Camry, so nothing spectacular in terms of pure exhaust sound and that blower whine gets annoying after a while (though sounds fun first). It would be better with turbos imo, that blower is stated to consume up to 50hp in some situations, wouldn't you like to have that sent to your wheels? 4.0TT for all its (relatively few) flaws is at least one of the very few twin turbo V8s, and proved to have more power/be more reliable than some of its competitors. But SC 3.0 V6 - I'd rather have a (twin)-turbo inline 6. Better sound at least and def no less power. If 3.0T was such a great tuner engine, why's that there's so much demand for them from those who blew their engines up? Heck, for 4.0TT, DS1 alone makes it worth it, have you seen anything for 3.0T which would allow you to view and edit their OTS maps and have some relatively meaningful guidelines for that?

[TexasDfwS4]

To me, the 3.0T is a big disappointment. It doesn't seem to be a lot easier to maintain than 4.0TT, but has a lot less power potential. It would be better with turbos imo, that blower is stated to consume up to 50hp in some situations, wouldn't you like to have that sent to your wheels?

This is funny, I had two S4's and I have asked myself this question how much power is used for the SC. When I went stage 2 I was into this and would check thinks out, and found that the hotter it got the harder it was to turn the SC pulley. I was in the shop and saw after one run that the pulley was pretty stiff, not that I couldn't turn it just it felt harder.

[sepheroth86]

This is funny, I had two S4's and I have asked myself this question how much power is used for the SC. When I went stage 2 I was into this and would check thinks out, and found that the hotter it got the harder it was to turn the SC pulley. I was in the shop and saw after one run that the pulley was pretty stiff, not that I couldn't turn it just it felt harder.

The bottleneck really is the blower. At Dual Pulley ratio's/speeds (20-22k rpm) the TVS1320 is WELL off the compressor map. Which means it is making a TON of heat, and using a LOT of additional power. Running a TVS1900 at ~14,000 rpm would move the same mass flow rate but at a much lower temperature. Also it would likely take less or similar power to spin (hard to tell because everything is theoretical at this point).

TVS1320


TVS1900

[Burkeomatic]

This is why I am trying to go as far as I can single pulley before I go double pulley. Just to see the difference in the end game. It is like spinning one of those baby OE turbos to the moon. Sure, you get more power but tons of heat, we are running 2.2-2.5 PR at 20k+ RPM, not even on the map. I wonder how the map changes for a ported blower? I don't know how supercharger maps are derived, like is that for our specific set up, or a TVS1320 in general. The case obviously has a lot to do with efficiency. I think an ideal set up for us would entail a larger charger (from what I have read one was developed, but it was expensive and stillborn basically) or twincharging. I would imagine twincharging using a stock PR upgraded cooling, and the turbo blowing through a proper A/A intercooler would be ideal, or just eliminating the supercharger all together, but I would understand why some would not want to eliminate the supercharger.

[fastboatster]

This is funny, I had two S4's and I have asked myself this question how much power is used for the SC. When I went stage 2 I was into this and would check thinks out, and found that the hotter it got the harder it was to turn the SC pulley. I was in the shop and saw after one run that the pulley was pretty stiff, not that I couldn't turn it just it felt harder.

50hp is what Audi states for the stock power levels. How much power is consumed on DP is anybody's guess

[sepheroth86]

50hp is what Audi states for the stock power levels. How much power is consumed on DP is anybody's guess

Based on the charts above, speculative at around 20,000 rpm would be ~62 kw, which equals around 83 horsepower.

Many of the DP setups end up around 22,000rpm, from what I recall. EATON recommends 20,000 rpm, I think.

[Burkeomatic]

This is funny, I had two S4's and I have asked myself this question how much power is used for the SC. When I went stage 2 I was into this and would check thinks out, and found that the hotter it got the harder it was to turn the SC pulley. I was in the shop and saw after one run that the pulley was pretty stiff, not that I couldn't turn it just it felt harder.

That's what she said.

Based on the charts above, speculative at around 20,000 rpm would be ~62 kw, which equals around 83 horsepower.

Many of the DP setups end up around 22,000rpm, from what I recall. EATON recommends 20,000 rpm, I think.

Yeah, honestly, I think Audi should have went with the larger blower, we are clearly exceeding what the charger is designed for. Heck, at stock it pretty much is. It is hard to extrapolate that compressor map out, who knows what our efficiencies are at. I truly thought TVS blowers were more efficient than that.

[sepheroth86]

They are.

Compare a TVS1320 to an M62 or M90.

[James115]

Does the 4.0 have oil consumption ?

[joserod92]

Does the 4.0 have oil consumption ?

for some people, but mine does not consume a drop between changes. my old 3.0t consumed a little.