Snapped all 8 crank pulley bolts

[0mn1]

I have a dual pulley setup with IE hardware and tune. This was a nightmare, but I successfully extracted all 8. Check your bolts!!IMG_20210417_161846.jpg

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[KMPRSSD]

OMG I’m hearing this is happening more and more. This was an IE overlay pulley with their bolt kit? From your picture it looks like you had to pull the radiator and core support to get an extraction tool in there? Any other damage? What’s the plan moving forward?


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[wes8398]

Sweet baby Jesus; what the hell?! I need WAAAAY more details, please. Did you have to pull the engine, or...? Pics seem to be taken with a lot more room than we're typically used to...

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[Morritse]

Are you 6mt?
I've only seen this happen on a 6mt car

*Edit* looks through his post history and he seems to be 6mt.

Haven't seen this happen on. A dsg car yet

[KMPRSSD]

Are you 6mt?
I've only seen this happen on a 6mt car

*Edit* looks through his post history and he seems to be 6mt.

Haven't seen this happen on. A dsg car yet

Why would that be?


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[wes8398]

Why would that be?


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I'm not sure if the evidence is all there yet, but some people are making a connection between manuals - and light weight flywheels especially - and these bolts breaking. I'm guessing they might be thinking it has to do with harmonics. Manuals also rev much higher (ie: 3k RPM at highway speeds) than automatics, which could also factor in. Again, I think it's all conjecture at this point though.
I'd really like to hear more from op!

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[0mn1]

This is a 6MT. Instead of pulling the radiator I pulled the entire front end off. Disconnected every hose and electrical connectors. I wanted as much space as possible to get the extraction tools and drill bits in. The sad part is a few months ago I saw the bolts come and lose and I put it in service position and tightened all the bolts but that did not solve the problem this time around because when I went to go tighten them they were all floating. I was actually driving to work and then I lost power steering and then the car started overheating the coolant and water pump light started bashing me it pop the hood and all my belts are gone.

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[0mn1]

I'm going to contact IE on Monday and give them some feedback. I ended up using carbide drill bits and speed outs. All the other bolt extractor tools would not work in this tight confined area. Hammering the speed outs work perfectly fine but you end up damaging the other side. My only concern is that I went to Granger and got some comparable bolts and I'm not sure if they're going to hold up so I'm just going to monitor these bolts everyday. In the process when the bolts came out they did damage the radiator fan a little bit but not enough to prevent it from working just scarring the plastic a bit.

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[0mn1]

Correct. I'm considering the jhm one now.

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[KMPRSSD]

I'm going to contact IE on Monday and give them some feedback. I ended up using carbide drill bits and speed outs. All the other bolt extractor tools would not work in this tight confined area. Hammering the speed outs work perfectly fine but you end up damaging the other side. My only concern is that I went to Granger and got some comparable bolts and I'm not sure if they're going to hold up so I'm just going to monitor these bolts everyday. In the process when the bolts came out they did damage the radiator fan a little bit but not enough to prevent it from working just scarring the plastic a bit.

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Just wondering how you will check them daily? Inspection mirror and fingers. I feel like I should be checking mine periodically but mine are recessed in my JHM. No real easy way to get at them.


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[0mn1]

Just wondering how you will check them daily? Inspection mirror and fingers. I feel like I should be checking mine periodically but mine are recessed in my JHM. No real easy way to get at them.


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Modified alternator tool jbwelded with a 6mm. I decided to order the jhm over drive crankshaft. I'm not messing around with this 2 piece crap. Shoulda done this from the start, I'll have to re do it but jhm seems to be a better overall design.

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[KMPRSSD]

I used blue loctite on my JHM bolts and torqued them to proper spec. My fear is if they do snap I will never be able to get them out. Prob a little map gas will help but it would be a bad day.


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[Rodizzle]

I'm not sure if the evidence is all there yet, but some people are making a connection between manuals - and light weight flywheels especially - and these bolts breaking. I'm guessing they might be thinking it has to do with harmonics. Manuals also rev much higher (ie: 3k RPM at highway speeds) than automatics, which could also factor in. Again, I think it's all conjecture at this point though.
I'd really like to hear more from op!

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Bingo .. I seen 4 207 crank pulley snap .


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[Quattro_Gang]

that looks like a nightmare


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[0mn1]

Bingo .. I seen 4 207 crank pulley snap .


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Now I know what you wanted to switch cars . The RS3 seems quite enticing at this point.

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[tba]

One thing to keep in mind is the OEM crank pulley bolts are torque to yield, so you cannot reuse them since they are stretched. Also, the OEM bolts are only grade 8.8. If you use a higher grade 12.9 bolt like 034 supplies with their crank pulleys, it's much less likely you'll snap the bolts. You can pick up grade 12.9 M8 x 1.25 25mm long bolts for less than the OEM bolts, just make sure they are at least zinc plated for rust resistance.

[wes8398]

Correct. I'm considering the jhm one now.

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JHMs have also been reported to shear bolts. At least a couple that I've heard of in the past 6 months. I haven't taken note of the sizes though. I wonder if these huge crank pullies (even single piece ones) are putting that much more stress on the bolts because of the extra leverage the larger belt path has on the center of the pulley...?

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[mahhdd]

I was planning on doing a big crank pulley from JHM (207mm) or Fluidampr (203mm or 206mm) for maximum belt surface area on the supercharger pulley (less slippage).

You might want to check this out... This guy's JHM bolts snapped as well, and he's 6MT too: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1373...16930991729938

I'm 6MT and I'm beginning to question if I'm going the massive crank pulley route, or if I should go the crank/sc combo route instead. There should probably be a "6MT + Snapped Bolts? Check In!" thread.

[djn876]

This sounds like an issue with bolt strength and installation more than pulley size. The manual is probably a little harsher on them too with clutch engagement.

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[Lalalalala]

Terrifying pic, sorry you went through that man. What's the stock crank bolt torque spec, isnt it only like 15 ft #? I like the idea of getting rid of the OEM one, with all the issues people have with them splitting, so the overlay pullies dont seem as attractive. There still doesnt seem to be any evidence that ditching the harmonic balancer causes issues in the 3.0T either. Even with the car in service position it isnt fun to work in that area. Given the prevalence of the OEM splitting and failing I'm surprised nobody has made a lightweight 162.25 (or whatever stock size is) single piece crank pulley replacement. Thanks for posting, it's a good reminder for everyone, especially 6MT folks.

[B7TitaniumA4]

Well shit! I’m 6mt, in the process of upgrading to IE dual pulley, but I have a 186mm JHM crank pulley instead of the IE overlay pulley, I also have a lightweight flywheel with stronger clutch going in. I used new factory bolts, blue locktite and factory torque specs. My engine is still out since I’m waiting on new timing components.

Now I’m concerned lol! 🤦🏻*♂️

[430hps4]

The manual guys are snapping the bolts due to stronger forearms. Those of us with auto's are limp wristed... so we don't snap our bolts...


:)

[B7TitaniumA4]

The manual guys are snapping the bolts due to stronger forearms. Those of us with auto's are limp wristed... so we don't snap our bolts...


:)

LMFAO!!!

[djn876]

Terrifying pic, sorry you went through that man. What's the stock crank bolt torque spec, isnt it only like 15 ft #? I like the idea of getting rid of the OEM one, with all the issues people have with them splitting, so the overlay pullies dont seem as attractive. There still doesnt seem to be any evidence that ditching the harmonic balancer causes issues in the 3.0T either. Even with the car in service position it isnt fun to work in that area. Given the prevalence of the OEM splitting and failing I'm surprised nobody has made a lightweight 162.25 (or whatever stock size is) single piece crank pulley replacement. Thanks for posting, it's a good reminder for everyone, especially 6MT folks.

It's not a harmonic balancer, it's just a pulley. The engine is all internally balanced.

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[wes8398]

It's not a harmonic balancer, it's just a pulley. The engine is all internally balanced.

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It is indeed a harmonic balancer, friend... Just an unnecessary one, it would seem.

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[Morritse]

It is indeed a harmonic balancer, friend... Just an unnecessary one, it would seem.

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It's definitely not a harmonic balancer, balancers have counterweights.

I think you're trying to say it's a harmonic dampener, which it also isn't. Dampeners have to be interference fit to work.

[djn876]

It is indeed a harmonic balancer, friend... Just an unnecessary one, it would seem.

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It's really not though, as stated above, a harmonic balancer needs to be press fit to actually be an effective damper.

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[Asteven1]

Subscribed.. this is a little scary with a 6mt

[wes8398]

It's really not though, as stated above, a harmonic balancer needs to be press fit to actually be an effective damper.

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It's definitely not a harmonic balancer, balancers have counterweights.

I think you're trying to say it's a harmonic dampener, which it also isn't. Dampeners have to be interference fit to work.

Sorry, the terms are generally used pretty interchangeably. There's also "torsional damper" in that mix as well. Anyway... Yes, "damper" is what I'm referring to.

The ones that are DESIGNED to be interference fit, must be. But there are harmonic dampers that are designed to be - and are effective when - attached to the crank snout like ours. I'm not 100% confident in this, but I *think* the hub that we bolt our crank pullies to is what's press-fit onto the crank snout... Then we bolt the pulley to that. So it's just another way to do the same thing. If our non-interference fit dampers weren't effective at something, I really don't think Fluidamper would design/produce/sell a non-interference pulley for our application.

I'm not 100% convinced that it's not doing any damage or not putting my engine at more risk of crank damage, but I run a solid pulley. I'm basically just praying that it doesn't contribute to a failure down the road.

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[BrokeBichB8]

Some food for thought:

1. Was your Rubber Damper OEM? I know the premise is that they are internally dampened motors, but autoparts lookup identifies the item as a harmonic balancer. The balancer has dimples drilled into it to balance it rotationally. I have yet to see a once piece pulley with material removed for balancing.

2. Did the bolts shear at the shoulder?


Thanks

[Culi]

This is a 6MT. Instead of pulling the radiator I pulled the entire front end off. Disconnected every hose and electrical connectors. I wanted as much space as possible to get the extraction tools and drill bits in. The sad part is a few months ago I saw the bolts come and lose and I put it in service position and tightened all the bolts but that did not solve the problem this time around because when I went to go tighten them they were all floating. I was actually driving to work and then I lost power steering and then the car started overheating the coolant and water pump light started bashing me it pop the hood and all my belts are gone.

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A little off topic, but how did you deal with the AC refrigerant when you pull the front end off? I think the AC condenser is next to the radiator. Did it leak out in gas or liquid form, or did you evacuate it at a shop first, then pull everything out?

[0mn1]

A little off topic, but how did you deal with the AC refrigerant when you pull the front end off? I think the AC condenser is next to the radiator. Did it leak out in gas or liquid form, or did you evacuate it at a shop first, then pull everything out?

There is enough room to gently put it on a box below the front end. I worked around it.

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[wes8398]

Been doing a little investigating. Interesting to read this thread from 5 years ago... https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/top...ink_source=app

Also some good info in the FAQ here https://www.vdamper.com/FAQ_ep_43.html

Also, this http://www.atiracing.com/products/da...mper_dinan.htm

I realise this stuff is part "marketing material", but I really think we can trust these guys to be doing their best to serve the community well, not just sell stuff. I'm becoming more and more inclined to get my hands on a Fluidampr; and I was STAUNCHLY against them (and their pricetag) when I put my CTS 187 pulley on. We learn every day.

[wootwoot]

Been doing a little investigating. Interesting to read this thread from 5 years ago... https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/top...ink_source=app

Also some good info in the FAQ here https://www.vdamper.com/FAQ_ep_43.html

Also, this http://www.atiracing.com/products/da...mper_dinan.htm

I realise this stuff is part "marketing material", but I really think we can trust these guys to be doing their best to serve the community well, not just sell stuff. I'm becoming more and more inclined to get my hands on a Fluidampr; and I was STAUNCHLY against them (and their pricetag) when I put my CTS 187 pulley on. We learn every day.

Sounds like a huge waste of money. With the large volume of pulleys sold only a handful of people have had issues. There is no conclusive answer on why people have had these issues so its unclear why you're convinced that its related to the harmonic dampener. That being said if it makes you sleep better at night then go for it.

[wes8398]

Sounds like a huge waste of money. With the large volume of pulleys sold only a handful of people have had issues. There is no conclusive answer on why people have had these issues so its unclear why you're convinced that its related to the harmonic dampener. That being said if it makes you sleep better at night then go for it.

That's been my outlook up until recently as well. But the truth is, we can use that logic with equal effectiveness on either side of the argument. There's only a small amount of issues THAT WE'RE AWARE OF... but how many are we NOT aware of? How many clutch/pressure plate/flywheel issues have been incorrectly chalked up to something else? How many valvetrain issues have done the same? How many more cases of pulley mounting bolts sheering have NOT come to our attention? Even more likely; how many of us actually know what might be happening to our main bearings, caps, etc?
I don't know man... I think there's some real science behind this. But I'm having a REAL hard time with $1,000 for a fucking crank pulley. I put an ATI Super Damper on my GM V8 for $300 via ATI's "scratch n dent" eBay sales. Even full price on these were sub-$450.

Edit: Some reading on the other side of the argument:
https://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...-Pulley-Debate
https://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...e-Crank-Pulley
https://www.unorthodoxracing.com/university

[Austin88]

Everyone gets so heated over the whole fluidampr vs. solid aluminum crank pulley thing. I went with fluidampr because once I do my clutch and install a lightweight flywheel the whole “free revs being more sluggish” thing will not be an issue at that point. And I will have a broadband damper that is superior to the OEM elastomeric damper on my build as an insurance policy against random stuff that could go wrong. Crank and flywheel bolts loosening, oil pump gears breaking, bearing, and even crank failure have all been documented on other internally dampened engines so that was not a strong argument in my opinion. The consensus is the longer the crankshaft (such as V10) the worse the problem gets. But man even though our V6 crank is short, after I install my new clutch and flywheel on my back under a Quick Jack in my home garage the LAST thing I want to do is open that bitch back up again. Therefore, for me, the extra money spent was worth it for flywheel bolts reason alone.

Also Issam Abed was a pleasure to work with and I like how I can change my pulley ratio easily with custom size rings for $199 IIRC.

This was my choice based the on research I did and my view that it can do no harm if I am wrong

[wes8398]

...

I know it's gotten heated in the past (this has been a topic of debate for plenty of years), but I don't see much of that going on here...? We're just discussing. Suffice to say that there's no more or less solid, empirical, scientific evidence in 2021 as there was back in 2015; so the conversation's not going to get us anywhere though. But it's still good for the newer generation(s) of owners to learn about this "old news" stuff.

[Izzyz28]

Locktite and a torque wrench folks, that's the only way I have any confidence in this 8-bolt setup. As far as belt slip and trying to keep a slightly bigger pulley up top, I would ask why? The diameter change is minimal, and I have not heard of any belt slip issues on any pulley using a quality belt.

[Jake@JHM]

Yes, Loctite and proper torque are key. PLEASE keep in mind to hand tighten all of the bolts before torquing them down. If you tighten them with a wrench you can over-torque them without realizing it. For example, if you tightened them to 40ftlbs with a wrench and then put a torque wrench on set at 20ftlbs, it's going to click because it reaches 20ftlbs. It won't tell you if it's over-torqued. Also, torque them in a star pattern. We use grade 12.9 bolts which are extremely strong.

[0mn1]

Yes, Loctite and proper torque are key. PLEASE keep in mind to hand tighten all of the bolts before torquing them down. If you tighten them with a wrench you can over-torque them without realizing it. For example, if you tightened them to 40ftlbs with a wrench and then put a torque wrench on set at 20ftlbs, it's going to click because it reaches 20ftlbs. It won't tell you if it's over-torqued. Also, torque them in a start pattern. We use grade 12.9 bolts which are extremely strong.

Good to know, thanks for the input. I already ordered your crank pulley.

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