Question: grease amount for front outer CV joint

[dimab]

Hello, it's time to replace front outer CV boot on my 2013 Allroad so I bought the 8T0 498 203 boot replacement kit from VW/Audi.
The kit includes the boot itself, hose clips, circlip, bolt, and 120g of G 052 528 A2 CV joint grease - everything you need for the repair:



However, what I struggle to understand is the exact amount of grease to be used for my drive shaft and its distribution between the CV joint and the boot.
The VW/Audi service manual has the following table:


The table shows different variations of the outer CV joint based on diameter. I have the 8K0 407 271 AL drive shaft, which appears to correspond to the 85/88mm one from the table.

My two questions are:
1. What are these 85 and 88mm numbers? What dimensions they represent? I guess these are CV joint outer diameter, but in what exactly places would I measure these?
2. Why there are two numbers in the second column - Grease Total quantity? In my case these are 128/90g. So how much grease my 85/88mm CV joint require after all: 128 or 90g?

I would appreciate any insight on this.
I do realize that I can just go ahead and put 60g from the grease pack supplied in the kit to the CV joint and the remaining 60g to the boot and be done with it. But I'm curious to find out how to read that table from the service manual.

[RPMtech147]

I changed 100's of axle boots over the years. I put the entire amount included with the boot kit in and have never had a single issue. I didn't even know there was a spec. Learn something new every day.

[Theiceman]

Me too... Grease it up, slap the rest in the boot...

Damn Germans I tell ya..

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[Smac770]

There's three outer joints across the various 8K front axles:

Peened triple roller joint AAR 2600 i with an outer CV joint with an 85/88 mm diameter.
Peened triple roller joint AAR 3300 i with an outer CV joint with an 94/100 mm diameter.
Peened triple roller joint AAR 3300 i with an outer CV joint with an 99/106 mm diameter.

I suspect the 85mm is the nominal "wheel side joint diameter" while the 88mm is the physical diameter of the joint where the large end of the boot is clamped around. At least that's where I measured 88mm on my axle laying around.

As to the 124g (or 128g) vs. 90g, no idea. The kit is for your CV joint, and it came with 120g of grease. VAG never gives anything away unnecessarily. I'd say you're going 60g into the bearings and 60g into boot.

If you want further explanation on the table, you'd have to see what a dealership service department has to say. Because AoA and Audi consider themselves absolved of the concerns of the actual owners.

[dimab]

Thanks everyone. Replaced it today. Will post some pictures later.

[captain_video]

Every CV joint or boot kit that I ever bought had the correct amount of grease required for the joint since it is specific to the boot and/or joint being replaced. You pack as much of it into the joint as possible and then just squeeze the rest into the boot.

[NJRoadFan]

Disassemble the outer CV joint and clean out all the old grease (use brake cleaner and a roll of paper towels). Inspect the races for any excessive wear. Re-assemble and pack with new grease making sure the inner splined part is facing the correct direction. If there is excessive play in the CV joint, it really should be replaced.

[captain_video]

Disassemble the outer CV joint and clean out all the old grease (use brake cleaner and a roll of paper towels). Inspect the races for any excessive wear. Re-assemble and pack with new grease making sure the inner splined part is facing the correct direction. If there is excessive play in the CV joint, it really should be replaced.

i absolutely agree 100% about replacing the worn joint, but you won't know how worn it is until you disassemble and clean the old joint.. Unless you have a new joint on hand there is a workaround that you can do until you get the new joint. Swap the outer CV joints between the two drive axles. The inner races of the joints tend to wear mostly on one side of the joint since that's the side that gets the most contact during normal driving. By swapping the joints from left to right and vice versa you expose the part of the joint that has much less wear and it should work with no problems until you can obtain a replacement joint or rebuilt axle. Note that you actually have to swap the joints and not the entire axle since the axles themselves are not identical. It's going to require that you replace the boots since you have to essentially destroy the old boot so you can remove the joint, but they're not all that expensive and the new joints will come with new boots. A set of boots will probably set you back about $30-40. You'll probably be able to run with the old joints much longer this way as long as you don't drive in reverse for long distances. I know it's not the ideal fix, but it's not meant to be permanent anyway and the old worn joints should most definitely be replaced at the earliest convenience.

[dimab]

A few pictures I wanted to share from my boot replacement.
The boot on this joint was replaced 2 years ago by Audi dealer. Previous owner paid $400 for labor. Here is how they did it (all images are clickable to view hi-res version):



So if you are thinking "Hey, maybe I better take it to the dealer. It won't be cheap, but they have experience and proper tools to do it right" you may be wrong.

That's the reason it needed a replacement:



I suspect it was a rock stuck there causing the damage.

Here is how the "excessive wear" looks like in my opinion:



This is something you can feel with your fingernail. It will eventually lead to more significant surfaces damage, enough for the ball to stuck when it moves up and down the race and cause those clicking noises when turning.
Btw, I like using VM&P Naphtha for cleaning stuff like this.

When it comes to replacing outer CV joint I prefer to replace the whole drive shaft. It's very likely the inner joint will need to be replaced pretty soon in my opinion, due to noise and/or vibration at a specific speed. In which case the cost of replacing both inner and outer joints will be comparable to replacing the whole drive shaft.

[captain_video]

Yikes! That is one nasty CV joint. I highly recommend Raxles.com for rebuilt axles. You'll need to send them your old OEM axle as a core exchange, but I seem to recall they they provide a prepaid shipping label for the return. Just don't destroy the box it comes in. Stay clear of the Chinese knockoffs that most auto parts stores are selling these days. They are absolute crap. I had one for my '99 B5 Passat literally fall apart in my hands while I was trying to install it. I got to where I just replace the outer joints instead of the entire axle. It's more work, but you have a brand new outer joint that will last a very long time. The inner joints don't get subjected to the same stress as the outer joints so they should last much longer and are far less prone to failure.

As for replacing the entire axle, you really have to weigh the cost of new vs. rebuilt vs. just the outer joint. A complete new OEM axle is the best solution, but also the most expensive. Rebuilt axles are mostly just inspected and the joints reground, as necessary, rather that replace any of the joints. Raxcles.com has a good reputation for quality rebuilt axles and I have dealt with them in the past with my Passats.

[eljay]

@dimab, ouch!

Both front CV boots needed replacement on my 2016 Allroad with 65k kms. Isn't that "early"? What's everyone's take on how long they last?

[Theiceman]

It looks like in that first pic someone was trying to bang out the axle without removing the circlip first. i've seen it before a couple of times ... they put the edge of the cv joint on something and try to drive the axle out . the circlip is covered in grease so they dont see it. A little surprised to see a dealer do that , that is usually done by the home mechanic with no experience.

The damaged area i highly doubt was damaged by a stone, CV'S use a hardened or " annealed" surface , for the balls to ride in. When they wear they begin to look " polished" as the annealed surface starts to wear , you can even see it in the neighboring groove in the pic, this fine metal being polished off has nowhere to go and accelerates the wear. eventually you wear through the hardened surface and into the casting and its game over.

when i repack CVs if i see the surface has become polished, if it has i just replace the CV joint.

here is the one out of My Porsche to give you a better look.


The ones on my Audi have gone over 200K km before needing replacement so yes that seems early to have it go bad. I have theories as to why this one went bad so quickly but at the end of the day you need a new one ..

me personally, i don't believe in "replacement" axles . I will just put an OE joint in , but that is personal choice.

[SNice]

I had the same issue a while ago - leaky boot. I bought the same kit and rebuilt the axle. I caught it in time so all components were in good shape. I repacked the bearings with the grease as others have stated and filled the rest with the boot. Bought a special crimp tool to fasten the retaining band around the clip (always love adding to my tool collection).

As Iceman said, someone clearly took a hammer to that joint and damaged it. While I was looking at how to do the job I saw several YouTube videos/tutorials where that was done. Apparently, you’ve got to hit it at the right angle to get the clip to pop. I tried to use a wood block as a “cushion” but I couldn’t get it and didn’t want to break anything. I ended up using a bearing separator and got it to pop right out - no damage.
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[dimab]

@dimab, ouch!

Both front CV boots needed replacement on my 2016 Allroad with 65k kms. Isn't that "early"? What's everyone's take on how long they last?

The first time one of the outer boots was replaced on my 2013 Allroad was at 90k miles according to the service history.
Then the complete drive shaft was replaced on the other side at 100k. Not sure what was the story with it, but I suspect, based on the amount of residue left on the lower links, the boot was torn badly and the joint was running without grease for long enough time to cause damage to it.
The above happened before I bought the car last summer. Now, at 110k miles it needed the outer boot replacement again after just 20k miles. Looking at the boot damage (one of the pictures from my previous post) I think it was a rock stuck to the boot (tar/ice) which caused those two little pinholes.

[dimab]

It looks like in that first pic someone was trying to bang out the axle without removing the circlip first. i've seen it before a couple of times ... they put the edge of the cv joint on something and try to drive the axle out . the circlip is covered in grease so they dont see it. A little surprised to see a dealer do that , that is usually done by the home mechanic with no experience.

The outer joint on 2.0 b8 at least has a circlip that just gets pushed through the inner race:





I'm not sure why they didn't follow their service manual, but putting aside cosmetic damage, hammering the outer race of a ball bearing to free up the inner race isn't a good idea. As the force applied to the outer race in this case is being transferred through the balls and cage, which may damage it.

The damaged area i highly doubt was damaged by a stone, CV'S use a hardened or " annealed" surface , for the balls to ride in.

Sorry for the confusion, I was talking about the boot itself and two pinholes in one of the pictures I posted earlier.

[Theiceman]

ah right .. didnt see the tiny pinhole.. makes sense , those are pretty robust rubber boots though a big rock maybe

[dimab]

As Iceman said, someone clearly took a hammer to that joint and damaged it. While I was looking at how to do the job I saw several YouTube videos/tutorials where that was done. Apparently, you’ve got to hit it at the right angle to get the clip to pop. I tried to use a wood block as a “cushion” but I couldn’t get it and didn’t want to break anything. I ended up using a bearing separator and got it to pop right out - no damage.

Audi recommends using a copper or brass drift to hammer the inner race, but your approach is also great. I used a piece of 1/2 inch copper rod:



I like the zip tie trick from your pictures to make the circlip install process easier.

[dimab]

ah right .. didnt see the tiny pinhole.. makes sense , those are pretty robust rubber boots though a big rock maybe

That's what I suspect. I don't use this car for offroading, but that winter was really nasty with a lot of snow and gravel they put on the roads.

[captain_video]

I use a brass drift and a 3-lb short handled sledge hammer to pop off outer CV joints. One good whack and it pops right off with no problems. Make sure the axle is secured in a vise. I use a Black & Decker Workmate that I've had for over 40 years and it still works great. You just have to get the brass drift as close to parallel to the axle and positioned on one of the spokes of the star wheel as shown in the drawing. Don't even bother trying to use a regular hammer. You'll never be able to exert enough force on the joint to break the grip of the circlip. I position a cardboard box on the floor filled with some old bath towels to catch the joint as it pops off so it doesn't get damaged.

Installing the new joint over the circlip isn't too difficult. The inner circumference of the joint is chamfered so it will compress the clip as the joint is forced onto the splined axle. You may need to use a little persuasion to compress the clip. Just don't use too much so you don't damage the end of the splined extension on the joint.

[Smac770]

There's also a particular orientation of the circlip when installing; I wonder if they get that incorrect if it makes getting the joint off later a bitch.

[dimab]

Compressing the circlip with a zip tie as SNice showed in one of his pictures should in theory eliminate the need to position the circlip opening in a specific orientation.

[dimab]

Btw, when it comes to tightening those large diameter Oetiker hose clips, I find OTC 4722 clamp tool handy:



At a price range of under $20 I think it's a decent alternative to the VAG 1682 tool recommended by the service manual.

For tightening smaller hose clips I like using Knipex 1099 pliers.

[captain_video]

There's also a particular orientation of the circlip when installing; I wonder if they get that incorrect if it makes getting the joint off later a bitch.

I don't recall having to orient the circlip in any particular manner when reinstalling the joints on my B5 Passat axles. It just fits in a groove on the splined part of the axle. Perhaps something is different on the later model Audis, but I'm not seeing anything in the drawings that tells me otherwise. I haven't had mine lone enough to deal with the axles or boots yet.

[dimab]

I think Smac770 was referring to this part of the service manual:

[FR_A4]

Btw, when it comes to tightening those large diameter Oetiker hose clips, I find OTC 4722 clamp tool handy:



At a price range of under $20 I think it's a decent alternative to the VAG 1682 tool recommended by the service manual.

For tightening smaller hose clips I like using Knipex 1099 pliers.

That tool is totally needed. I broke 2 of those wimpy crimp tools. Since it was Sunday and I wanted to be done I ended up making one from a HF 16” handled snipper. Still needed to use some stupid force. But at least it makes a great crump tool for all the irrigation clamps. Next time I buy that tool.

Btw. For getting the vag plastic boot on. I wrapped a ziplock bag around the splines and put some grease on it. Slipped right in with no fighting.

[FR_A4]

Btw. Only Audi fans would keep this thread going for so long.

[Theiceman]

It's been a slow week

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[Theiceman]

We have to do something while we're waiting for the next guy to complain about timing chains and oil consumption

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[captain_video]

I think Smac770 was referring to this part of the service manual:

I fail to see how aligning the clip with the opening facing upwards makes one bit of difference. If you align it the way they tell you and then rotate the entire axle it's not going to change how the joint mates with the axle. Once the clip is inserted in the groove of the splined shaft it makes no difference how the clip opening is oriented. The important step is keeping the splined extension of the joint perfectly straight and aligned with the axle when seating the joint and engaging the clip. Aligning the clip in such a manner as shown in the instructions is totally unnecessary.

I would also use something with a bit more mass than a plastic hammer for driving the joint past the clip on the axle. Place a block of wood on the end of the axle bolt and hit it firmly with a bigger hammer, such as the 3-lb short sledge I mentioned in a previous post. It won't take as much force to engage the joint as it does to remove it since the inner circumference of the joint is chamfered and will compress the clip into the groove until it is inserted far enough to engage with the inner groove of the joint, where it will expand and prevent the joint from slipping off the splined shaft.

[Theiceman]

I fail to see how aligning the clip with the opening facing upwards makes one bit of difference. If you align it the way they tell you and then rotate the entire axle it's not going to change how the joint mates with the axle. Once the clip is inserted in the groove of the splined shaft it makes no difference how the clip opening is oriented. The important step is keeping the splined extension of the joint perfectly straight and aligned with the axle when seating the joint and engaging the clip. Aligning the clip in such a manner as shown in the instructions is totally unnecessary.

I would also use something with a bit more mass than a plastic hammer for driving the joint past the clip on the axle. Place a block of wood on the end of the axle bolt and hit it firmly with a bigger hammer, such as the 3-lb short sledge I mentioned in a previous post. It won't take as much force to engage the joint as it does to remove it since the inner circumference of the joint is chamfered and will compress the clip into the groove until it is inserted far enough to engage with the inner groove of the joint, where it will expand and prevent the joint from slipping off the splined shaft.

i gotta think about this one, germans have a reason for everything... this one is hard to imagine though.

[dimab]

I fail to see how aligning the clip with the opening facing upwards makes one bit of difference. If you align it the way they tell you and then rotate the entire axle it's not going to change how the joint mates with the axle. Once the clip is inserted in the groove of the splined shaft it makes no difference how the clip opening is oriented. The important step is keeping the splined extension of the joint perfectly straight and aligned with the axle when seating the joint and engaging the clip. Aligning the clip in such a manner as shown in the instructions is totally unnecessary.

My understanding is that the recommended circlip orientation only makes sense for proper installation of the outer CV joint onto the shaft. Placing its opening at the top guarantees that the circlip ends are secured in the shaft groove. So when hammering the CV joint onto the shaft the circlip ends don't get trapped in between. Which can in theory happen otherwise, as the new circlip inner diameter is much bigger than the shaft.

I would also use something with a bit more mass than a plastic hammer for driving the joint past the clip on the axle. Place a block of wood on the end of the axle bolt and hit it firmly with a bigger hammer, such as the 3-lb short sledge I mentioned in a previous post. It won't take as much force to engage the joint as it does to remove it since the inner circumference of the joint is chamfered and will compress the clip into the groove until it is inserted far enough to engage with the inner groove of the joint, where it will expand and prevent the joint from slipping off the splined shaft.

Using the old drive shaft bolt as per the manual makes it irrelevant what material the hammer is made of - the bolt is going to trash anyway. What matters though, I think, is the hammer mass and how much impact it creates to the CV joint bearing when hammering it. Applying too much force to hammer the outer race of a bearing to make the inner race engage may in theory damage the races, balls, and ball cage.

[Theiceman]

Does anyone have an image of said circlip ?

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[SNice]

Wow! Y’all are right - it must be a slow week! And yes - this is definitely an enthusiast level discussion. Lol.

My $0.02. Pretty sure the orientation (once installed) does not matter. It’s a regular old circlip. Nothing special. No special machining. The one I took out was plain and the one I put back in was plain. You can see it in the first pic in this thread.

When I put mine in - I used a zip tie (see pic above). I was able to push the end back on by hand and tap it into position with a small hammer. It clicked into place. Then I obviously cut off the zip tie. I’m pretty sure the shop manual mentions the specific orientation as a visual cue. It would be best to keep that portion or the clip in sight during reinstallation to be sure the clip seats properly. I think most of us on this thread would install it that way anyway.

Imagine if one installed the clip with the open end down and it somehow deformed during installation. The ‘mechanic’ would continue hammering away - risking damage to the splines, etc .


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[captain_video]

My understanding is that the recommended circlip orientation only makes sense for proper installation of the outer CV joint onto the shaft. Placing its opening at the top guarantees that the circlip ends are secured in the shaft groove. So when hammering the CV joint onto the shaft the circlip ends don't get trapped in between. Which can in theory happen otherwise, as the new circlip inner diameter is much bigger than the shaft.

The new circlip is exactly the same as the old circlip. Once the clip is engaged in the groove it's not going anywhere unless you pry it out forcefully. The diameter of the circlip is bigger than the diameter of the groove, but less than the diameter of the shaft. Actually, referring to the diameter of the clip implies that it is perfectly round, which is incorrect. It's shaped like a "C" and it's more oval shaped than round. The top and bottom of the "C" protrude from the groove whereas the two open ends and the side of the "C" reside in the groove of the axle so the clip is trapped in both the groove in the axle and the inner circumference of the joint.

Using the old drive shaft bolt as per the manual makes it irrelevant what material the hammer is made of - the bolt is going to trash anyway. What matters though, I think, is the hammer mass and how much impact it creates to the CV joint bearing when hammering it. Applying too much force to hammer the outer race of a bearing to make the inner race engage may in theory damage the races, balls, and ball cage.

True. You usually get a replacement bolt with the new joint, IIRC, so it doesn't really require that you protect the bolt head when hitting it with the hammer if using the old bolt to help seat the joint on the end of the axle. It's been more than a few years since I had to swap out a joint and I had forgotten that you get a replacement bolt. You should replace the bolt anytime you remove it anyway since it's a stretch bolt and should not be re-used.

[eljay]

The circlip that came with my Febi CV boot kit was smaller (thinner) than the original one. I still used it as it's really there just to hold the assembly together. Once you install everything, the shaft has nowhere to go anyway.
I installed the joint over the new clip with an axle vertically in a vice. It went on with just one tap of a hammer against the old bolt. I think the key is to hold the join pressed down with you hand on the shaft, so the force of the hammer slips the join over the clip without encountering a "spring" action if it's just sitting on the shaft without the light pressure.

[Theiceman]

I may have a POSSIBLE explanation to all this... something for us to think about.

I was discussing this with a mechanic friend of mine and he said he was trained to always install clips with the opening facing up . he said in the olden days ( some of you might remember ) circlips were installed with circlip pliers and the circlip had two "bumps" protruding into the centre of the circle. right where the circlip pliers went in. The was to make sure the circlip stayed centered during installation. If you installed it upside down those bumps cant work due to gravity and the circlip is now not centered and jamb during installation.

He said manufactures now just use sprung steel clips due to its way cheaper so doesnt much matter, and the procedure may be a carry over from those days.

Just something to think about and kill more time with for now :)



He is a Large truck Mechanic and he said the big trucks still use the old style circlips, he said some are about the size of a donut or larger.

[SNice]

I may have a POSSIBLE explanation to all this... something for us to think about.

I was discussing this with a mechanic friend of mine and he said he was trained to always install clips with the opening facing up . he said in the olden days ( some of you might remember ) circlips were installed with circlip pliers and the circlip had two "bumps" protruding into the centre of the circle. right where the circlip pliers went in. The was to make sure the circlip stayed centered during installation. If you installed it upside down those bumps cant work due to gravity and the circlip is now not centered and jamb during installation.

He said manufactures now just use sprung steel clips due to its way cheaper so doesnt much matter, and the procedure may be a carry over from those days.

Just something to think about and kill more time with for now :)



He is a Large truck Mechanic and he said the big trucks still use the old style circlips, he said some are about the size of a donut or larger.

...car is running great so keeping this one going...
Makes so much sense!!! I love info like that. Those style clips are used all throughout my old bikes (yours too! ). And yes - it was always easier to install them with the opening at 12 O'clock - otherwise they don't always seat right. I just didn't realize it was an actual 'best practice'. Cool!

[captain_video]

The circlips used on a drive axle for a CV joint are basically just bent circles of spring wire. They're nothing like the C-clip shown in the photo

[Theiceman]

The circlips used on a drive axle for a CV joint are basically just bent circles of spring wire. They're nothing like the C-clip shown in the photo

Umm did you actually read the post ?

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[Chrisc84]

I'm planning on replacing driver's cv boot this weekend, this thread will help a lot. Thanks for the valuable information guys

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