Switching from APR to 034 "first impressions " STg2 93

[RoofRails]

For those that don't know this is an 2015 3.0TFSI Q5 APR STG2 93 with a 194mm crank pulley and stock upper with Berks (BG SQ5) TCU tune.

So without changing any of my mods I flashed over the APR STG2 93 with 034 Motorsports dynamic STg2 + 93 (thier dual pulley file). I haven't had a ton of seat time yet and I have no Dragy data yet so this is my initial review. 034 is every bit as refined as APR as far as all of the little nuances of the engine acting and feeling OEM level smooth. Now the biggest difference I noticed right out of the gate is the gas pedal sensitivity or lack there of with 034. On the APR tune the gas pedal was extremely responsive I have never used a pedal box before but I would have to imagine this is what a pedal box feels like. I could turn things up in a hurry without ever getting past the first 1/3rd of the pedal travel. Watching my Torque app with both APR and 034 the APR software was quick to close the bypass valve on any quick inputs to the pedal regardless of how deep the input was, causing vacuum to flip to boost and pushing you back in your seat. Even with no change of pedal position when transitioning to a incline my APR software would start closing the BP valve and move from vacuum to boost. With 034 there is definitely a reduction in vacuum so they are using some of the Supercharger to equalize the increased engine load but not as aggressively as the APR file.

To sum this up I was use to that very sensitive and very aggressive approach to the throttle input that the APR file provides. To me it was fun and made the Q easier to drive in part throttle situations. It also felt faster (APR) even though I haven't proven or disproven that yet with Dragy times or a 1/4 Mile pass so for now it's just the seat of the pants part throttle feeling I'm referring to. I'm 99% sure Audi does this same trick with the throttle calibration when switching between comfort mode and dynamic mode. If you guys have felt that then you know what I'm talking about.

If you have never driven a APR tuned 3.0TFSI then you will have no point of reference and this really won't effect you at all. Or maybe some people prefer the less sensitive pedal. I prefer the APR pedal feel over the 034.

I'm in this for the long haul now so I will be getting back to you guys with more impressions, observations and at some point some tangible data.

On the observations front It looks like my EGTs are down a bit with regular driving , this is probably because the 034 is keeping me out of the boost more so then APR but I really need more time behind the wheel and a nice highway run to confirm this one.

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[tbaudi]

For those that don't know this is an 2015 3.0TFSI Q5 APR STG2 93 with a 194mm crank pulley and stock upper with Berks (BG SQ5) TCU tune.

So without changing any of my mods I flashed over the APR STG2 93 with 034 Motorsports dynamic STg2 + 93 (thier dual pulley file). I haven't had a ton of seat time yet and I have no Dragy data yet so this is my initial review. 034 is every bit as refined as APR as far as all of the little nuances of the engine acting and feeling OEM level smooth. Now the biggest difference I noticed right out of the gate is the gas pedal sensitivity or lack there of with 034. On the APR tune the gas pedal was extremely responsive I have never used a pedal box before but I would have to imagine this is what a pedal box feels like. I could turn things up in a hurry without ever getting past the first 1/3rd of the pedal travel. Watching my Torque app with both APR and 034 the APR software was quick to close the bypass valve on any quick inputs to the pedal regardless of how deep the input was, causing vacuum to flip to boost and pushing you back in your seat. Even with no change of pedal position when transitioning to a incline my APR software would start closing the BP valve and move from vacuum to boost. With 034 there is definitely a reduction in vacuum so they are using some of the Supercharger to equalize the increased engine load but not as aggressively as the APR file.

To sum this up I was use to that very sensitive and very aggressive approach to the throttle input that the APR file provides. To me it was fun and made the Q easier to drive in part throttle situations. It also felt faster (APR) even though I haven't proven or disproven that yet with Dragy times or a 1/4 Mile pass so for now it's just the seat of the pants part throttle feeling I'm referring to. I'm 99% sure Audi does this same trick with the throttle calibration when switching between comfort mode and dynamic mode. If you guys have felt that then you know what I'm talking about.

If you have never driven a APR tuned 3.0TFSI then you will have no point of reference and this really won't effect you at all. Or maybe some people prefer the less sensitive pedal. I prefer the APR pedal feel over the 034.

I'm in this for the long haul now so I will be getting back to you guys with more impressions, observations and at some point some tangible data.

On the observations front It looks like my EGTs are down a bit with regular driving , this is probably because the 034 is keeping me out of the boost more so then APR but I really need more time behind the wheel and a nice highway run to confirm this one.

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Curious, why did you change the tune?
This is very valuable feedback, I'd be interested in hearing a similar comparison to the EPL tune.

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[RoofRails]

Curious, why did you change the tune?
This is very valuable feedback, I'd be interested in hearing a similar comparison to the EPL tune.

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I like going to the drag strip and I wanted a dedicated E40 tune and the ability to flash back and forth between the files. Really that was the only reason. I made some passes with the APR 100 octane tune and there was no going back to 93 at the strip LOL ! Just seat of the pants dyno I will be extremely surprised if this 034 STG2 tune puts down numbers equal to APR. My money will be that it's slower.

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[Rising_sun]

This is fantastic information!

Of the major tuners, I don't believe there are any "bad" tunes. Just different flavors.

I've also wrestled with the EPL/IE/034/APR question. But have to admit that Berk and Fred's success at the track have been the primary influence for choosing APR.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts on the differences between the two companies. I also prioritize throttle response over peak performance numbers. I'm sure Berk is tired of all my emails for tune revisions to make "D" mode more responsive to throttle inputs.

Good Luck RoofRails and look forward to seeing improvements at the track this coming season. We should schedule an Audizine meet at Cecil County Raceway to show our support!

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[RoofRails]

This is fantastic information!

Of the major tuners, I don't believe there are any "bad" tunes. Just different flavors.

I've also wrestled with the EPL/IE/034/APR question. But have to admit that Berk and Fred's success at the track have been the primary influence for choosing APR.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts on the differences between the two companies. I also prioritize throttle response over peak performance numbers. I'm sure Berk is tired of all my emails for tune revisions to make "D" mode more responsive to throttle inputs.

Good Luck RoofRails and look forward to seeing improvements at the track this coming season. We should schedule an Audizine meet at Cecil County Raceway to show our support!

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You didn't make a bad decision going with APR. If APR had tune switching and a E40 file they would be top dog for sure. Their business model is to be first to market and to do that they gamble a large initial investment into the engineering and instrumentation to make it happen figuring they will recoup that money by being the only big game in town. Then they move on to the next platform and do it all over again. As far as the track day djn876 was just talking about a track rental day.

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[djn876]

This is fantastic information!

Of the major tuners, I don't believe there are any "bad" tunes. Just different flavors.

I've also wrestled with the EPL/IE/034/APR question. But have to admit that Berk and Fred's success at the track have been the primary influence for choosing APR.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts on the differences between the two companies. I also prioritize throttle response over peak performance numbers. I'm sure Berk is tired of all my emails for tune revisions to make "D" mode more responsive to throttle inputs.

Good Luck RoofRails and look forward to seeing improvements at the track this coming season. We should schedule an Audizine meet at Cecil County Raceway to show our support!

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I mentioned to Fred before that I thought it would be cool to do a track rental in the fall, would probably need 10 or 15 people to make the cost reasonable per person, but I think there are enough of us here and I can wrangle up a few friends too. If we can get enough interest I will look more seriously into it.

[Rising_sun]

I mentioned to Fred before that I thought it would be cool to do a track rental in the fall, would probably need 10 or 15 people to make the cost reasonable per person, but I think there are enough of us here and I can wrangle up a few friends too. If we can get enough interest I will look more seriously into it.

Oh please keep me in the loop! I'm definitely interested.

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[Queued]

Going from straight stock to Stage 2 034 [187 crank) I noticed a tremendous difference in the pedal feel, throttle response, both in D and S modes. I’ve got the 034 TCU tune as well and am happy with both. I was initially on the fence about going with APR or 034 and obviously chose the later due to being able to switch between tunes on the fly. I’d say somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 throttle is equal to full throttle at stock (3.0 Q5). I thought 034 was aggressive enough as I noticed after logging a few 3rd gear pulls that the cylinders begin pulling timing at high RPMs, which is next on my plate to address - bigger HX and new spark plugs. It’s interesting to hear that APR is more aggressive. Thanks for your input.

[RoofRails]

Going from straight stock to Stage 2 034 [187 crank) I noticed a tremendous difference in the pedal feel, throttle response, both in D and S modes. I’ve got the 034 TCU tune as well and am happy with both. I was initially on the fence about going with APR or 034 and obviously chose the later due to being able to switch between tunes on the fly. I’d say somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 throttle is equal to full throttle at stock (3.0 Q5). I thought 034 was aggressive enough as I noticed after logging a few 3rd gear pulls that the cylinders begin pulling timing at high RPMs, which is next on my plate to address - bigger HX and new spark plugs. It’s interesting to hear that APR is more aggressive. Thanks for your input.

Tune switching is definitely a big deal. I initially didn't think it would be a problem until a few E85 pumps showed up near me. If my Dragy runs confirm my butt dyno readings then I may just run APR 93 for part of the season and then move back to 034 when the track opens up. I own both so I have all kinds of options now LOL !

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[Norskie]

I've had similar changes to my BMW and Subaru's with the Cobb AP's, in that they had stock vs. linear throttle response. Meaning, stock, the entire range of throttle inputs were available in the first 50% of the gas pedal movement. Going to linear mode made it smoother and easier to drive and modulate exactly how much throttle I wanted.

Not being an expert tuner I'm not in a position to state how that was achieved. It is interesting to read about your observations of the BP valve.

[Qboost]

RoofRails, I think you answered this but, your tuner (NGP I assume) has no issue flashing you back to APR when you want? Theoretically, you could do a pass at the strip with APR 100 then do a quick flash to 034 E40 in the same day?

I mentioned to Fred before that I thought it would be cool to do a track rental in the fall, would probably need 10 or 15 people to make the cost reasonable per person, but I think there are enough of us here and I can wrangle up a few friends too. If we can get enough interest I will look more seriously into it.

I would be interested in this too. I'm in VA but my brother in law is in Annapolis with his B8.5 S4 IE Stage 1 and TCU. My Q5 is just APR Stage 1 with Berks TCU tune and I'm curious to see what I can put down officially.

[Clun9]

I actually found the pedal feel with my 034 Stage 2 tune with and TCU to be very touchy. Any input in the throttle and it jumps, but then again, the different driving modes does have an effect on throttle.

[RoofRails]

RoofRails, I think you answered this but, your tuner (NGP I assume) has no issue flashing you back to APR when you want? Theoretically, you could do a pass at the strip with APR 100 then do a quick flash to 034 E40 in the same day?



I would be interested in this too. I'm in VA but my brother in law is in Annapolis with his B8.5 S4 IE Stage 1 and TCU. My Q5 is just APR Stage 1 with Berks TCU tune and I'm curious to see what I can put down officially.

Yes NGP Aberdeen is my shop. The problem with flashing software at the track is it resets all of the fuel trims so I don't know how that would effect the runs. I'm more then likely going to have a bigger crank pulley before track season starts back up so I may get a opportunity before the bigger crank to do some dragy stuff with that (0-60 & 1/8th mile ). That should give me a feel for the difference between them. I'm not sure I want to use up a track day to do a back to back comparison. I may start out with a day where I run 034 on 93. I have plenty of data already on a 194mm crank pulley and APR so it should be interesting to see how a 200mm crank pulley would compare with 034 93 loaded up.

The E40 tune is ultimately the one I need to work at the track. Hopefully it's as spicy as the APR 104 race gas file. I know Eli's run with I.E E40 was on pace to be a very quick pass until he heat soaked.

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[RoofRails]

I actually found the pedal feel with my 034 Stage 2 tune with and TCU to be very touchy. Any input in the throttle and it jumps, but then again, the different driving modes does have an effect on throttle.

I know pedal feel is a very subjective thing. It's definitely not a clear cut deal where one is better or worse then the other. You would have to drive around in a APR STG2 tuned Q5 to feel the difference and there is probably a limited amount of people out there that have had both . In my comparison I'm in Dynamic mode with the transmission in Sport. My Q never comes out of Dynamic mode.

Is there another revision out there that our Q5s haven't gotten yet. My file was a R6.xx but I thought I have heard people talk about a R7 revision.

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[RoofRails]

I've had similar changes to my BMW and Subaru's with the Cobb AP's, in that they had stock vs. linear throttle response. Meaning, stock, the entire range of throttle inputs were available in the first 50% of the gas pedal movement. Going to linear mode made it smoother and easier to drive and modulate exactly how much throttle I wanted.

Not being an expert tuner I'm not in a position to state how that was achieved. It is interesting to read about your observations of the BP valve.

That sounds like it could be the situation here. Maybe APR keeps that stock pedal range which only becomes more and more sensitive as the power increases and 034 tunes a linear pedal. I think there is actually something on thier Dynamic plus tuning advertisement that talks about this.

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[Placemotorsport]

I only have APR stage 1 and my only gripe with it is sometimes while in Drive it seems to lag a bit until you give it more throttle. Of course in Sport mode that is not the case. I'm sure a TCU tune would cure that greatly

[RoofRails]

I asked about the APR VS 034 pedal input response on the 034 live stream today and they explained it in detail. @Norskie nailed it. The stock pedal in dynamic mode moves 0-100% throttle into the first 50% of the pedal. APR must have left that alone and the additional STG2 power just magnifies it . 034 actually calibrated it back to use the full range of the pedal. The idea being its better control on track, road course/auto X type stuff. Those live streams are fantastic and the guys are usually quick to answer anything you ask. Just make you question as specific as possible.

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[Qboost]

I asked about the APR VS 034 pedal input response on the 034 live stream today and they explained it in detail. @Norskie nailed it. The stock pedal in dynamic mode moves 0-100% throttle into the first 50% of the pedal. APR must have left that alone and the additional STG2 power just magnifies it . 034 actually calibrated it back to use the full range of the pedal. The idea being its better control on track, road course/auto X type stuff. Those live streams are fantastic and the guys are usually quick to answer anything you ask. Just make you question as specific as possible.

RoofRails getting all of the dirty details. Love it!

How would those throttle mappings play into TCU tunes? I also have a version of Berk's TCU tune. Would his files overwrite those mappings? Or does he only do "shift at certain output speed" irrelevant of throttle percentage? Which then begs the question, if he gave you a tune for APR, would it behave differently on 034 because of the way each of them maps the throttle?

[ILVTRANCE]

I asked about the APR VS 034 pedal input response on the 034 live stream today and they explained it in detail. @Norskie nailed it. The stock pedal in dynamic mode moves 0-100% throttle into the first 50% of the pedal. APR must have left that alone and the additional STG2 power just magnifies it . 034 actually calibrated it back to use the full range of the pedal. The idea being its better control on track, road course/auto X type stuff. Those live streams are fantastic and the guys are usually quick to answer anything you ask. Just make you question as specific as possible.

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I was there as well and Agreed with their response. Good call asking a great question.

[miggity02]

I was there as well and Agreed with their response. Good call asking a great question.

I joined in right as they were answering this question and was wondering if it was RoofRails or someone related to this post. 034's response makes sense and I would also agree with their thought behind how they tuned the pedal response. Mondays 11am pst on most platforms if people are interested!

[Norskie]

Those live streams are fantastic and the guys are usually quick to answer anything you ask. Just make you question as specific as possible.

They're on FB, right? Just like the TCU discussions?

I don't do FB so I can't participate, wish they didn't use a social media platform for that.

[RoofRails]

They're on FB, right? Just like the TCU discussions?

I don't do FB so I can't participate, wish they didn't use a social media platform for that.

Its on Face book , IG and YouTube


https://youtu.be/e-j5o_LrCsg

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[RoofRails]

Another quick update, As I have had more time to drive the 034 tune and my brain and right foot have adjusted to the new pedal calibration I'm definitely feeling better about this tune. Highway pulls feel great and the acceleration from a roll is good to go. I was a little alarmed at first but now the more i drive it the better its feeling. I also noticed that the EGTS are lower at almost all situations then the APR STG 2 file. I know this is a ECU calculation and it isn't a true reading but i watch both banks all the time as part of my standard Torque Pro screen and I'm seeing a measurable difference up to 200F less in some situations now. When i went from APR Stg1 to APR Stg 2 those EGT #s jumped up quite a bit. So far the 034 STG 2 + tune is more in line with my APR Stg 1 #s as far as EGTs. I have no idea if these #s are real or scaled the same so take this observation with a grain of salt. Since I'm investing 1800 in a set of High flow cats this actually makes me feel better real or not I'll take it.... LMAO !

[MSq5]

HP Tuners software shows that the shift patterns are scaled by accelerator pedal position rather than actual throttle position. It stands to reason that TCU tunes based on the OEM relationship of pedal to throttle might behave differently during part throttle operation if an ECU tuner alters that relationship. How much, I don't know. I'll bet Berk knows.

[Clun9]

Another quick update, As I have had more time to drive the 034 tune and my brain and right foot have adjusted to the new pedal calibration I'm definitely feeling better about this tune. Highway pulls feel great and the acceleration form a roll is good to go. I was a little alarmed at first but now the more i drive it the better its feeling. I also noticed that the EGTS are lower at almost all situations then the APR STG 2 file. I know this is a ECU calculation and it isn't a true reading but i watch both banks all the time as part of my standard Torque Pro screen and I'm seeing a measurable difference up to 200F less in some situations now. When i went from APR Stg1 to APR Stg 2 those EGT #s jumped up quite a bit. So far the 034 STG 2 + tune is more in line with my APR Stg 1 #s. I have no idea if these #s are real or scaled the same so take this observation with a grain of salt. Since I'm investing 1800 in a set of High flow cats this actually makes me feel better real or not I'll take it.... LMAO !

Glad you are enjoying it way more now. I'm surprised it required the ECU to take some time to recalibrate to the settings from the 034 stage 2. I would have thought the APR Stage 2 would be similar thus it would be a quicker transition. As far as EGTs though I did know that 034s have been running lower. Not sure how it compares to IE though.

[djn876]

Glad you are enjoying it way more now. I'm surprised it required the ECU to take some time to recalibrate to the settings from the 034 stage 2. I would have thought the APR Stage 2 would be similar thus it would be a quicker transition. As far as EGTs though I did know that 034s have been running lower. Not sure how it compares to IE though.

Keep in mind though a lot of the adaptations are erased when you write a new tune as a lot of the information is deleted and re-written. You can see this in things as simple as the fuel trims, etc.

[Clun9]

Keep in mind though a lot of the adaptations are erased when you write a new tune as a lot of the information is deleted and re-written. You can see this in things as simple as the fuel trims, etc.

Yep yep. Good point.

[RoofRails]

I have to add in a second recent impression. I switched to the STG2 single pulley file because I couldn't pass emissions with the 034 Dual pulley file. To my surprise the quick punch with aggressive part throttle inputs that I was missing from my APR tune is definitely back with this file. I'm not 100% sure why. Maybe I'm making more boost then the file is looking for so the result is a way more aggressive feel. The bigger pulley should be going on this weekend and I will swap back to STG2 + and hopefully retain this aggressive/punchy feel with a 3.16 PR.

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[Eur0fr3sh]

@roofrails did you get the redstar dps? How do they feel?

[RoofRails]

@roofrails did you get the redstar dps? How do they feel?

I did get them last Thursday. I haven't gotten them installed yet. You will definitely see a post when I do though.

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[schmove]

I switched to the STG2 single pulley file because I couldn't pass emissions with the 034 Dual pulley file.

Does the 034 DP file have some sort of readiness delete or something to make it not be able to pass emissions?

[RoofRails]

Does the 034 DP file have some sort of readiness delete or something to make it not be able to pass emissions?

It sure seems to be the case. I had probably put 500 miles on the STG2+ tune and it never set the readiness for catalyst or O2. Once I failed my emissions test (re-test required) I flashed back to the Single Pulley file. 50 miles on the STG2 file and a few cold starts later I have everything set. From what I have read getting the evap to set is almost impossible when it's cold outside and not a requirement. Screenshot_20210219-174845_Torque.jpgScreenshot_20210221-160011_Torque.jpg

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[schmove]

It sure seems to be the case. I had probably put 500 miles on the STG2+ tune and it never set the readiness for catalyst or O2. Once I failed my emissions test (re-test required) I flashed back to the Single Pulley file. 50 miles on the STG2 file and a few cold starts later I have everything set. From what I have read getting the evap to set is almost impossible when it's cold outside and not a requirement. Screenshot_20210219-174845_Torque.jpgScreenshot_20210221-160011_Torque.jpg

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Thanks for the reply! I think we have the same and only one can be "not ready" for 2000 on.

[djn876]

In PA you are allowed one readiness monitor not set for anything after 2001.

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[RoofRails]

Now driving this STG2 + 93 tune with the minimum pulley ratio that it was designed to operate on (200mm crank) its back to feeling snappy like my APR STG2 tune felt on the 194mm crank. It's pulling hard , especially on the highway. The STG2+ did not pair well with the 194mm crank. However the 034 STG2 file felt very good with the 194mm. I didn't log or dragy either set up yet so those are my seat of the pants impressions. The readiness is back to not being set again so I'm saying that's the software. Not a issue though because I will just flash back to their Single pulley file when I need to get my emissions done.

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[tbaudi]

This thread got me thinking. I have a '16 Q5 with an EPL stage 1 tune and Berk's TCU tune. I have only had the car since mid February and the tubes went on in the last few weeks. I felt like the throttle response with the EPL tune was very touchy and I was having trouble adjusting, I also imagined my wife may launch the car into something accidentally. I did some reading and didn't find any other similar reports about the EPL tune, so I reached out to Chris@EPL and asked about any throttle mapping adjustments with the tune. Chris indicated that there was very little done to the throttle maps, and he suggested that I reflash the car, shutting it off afterward and allowing it to sit for at least 20 second so the throttle body adaptation could complete. I let the cat sit for hours before I had a chance to drive it, when I did the throttle response was markedly different, much more linear, and in my mind, easier to control.
Just thought I would chime in with this, it may explain some of the throttle variance people are seeing.

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[djn876]

This thread got me thinking. I have a '16 Q5 with an EPL stage 1 tune and Berk's TCU tune. I have only had the car since mid February and the tubes went on in the last few weeks. I felt like the throttle response with the EPL tune was very touchy and I was having trouble adjusting, I also imagined my wife may launch the car into something accidentally. I did some reading and didn't find any other similar reports about the EPL tune, so I reached out to Chris@EPL and asked about any throttle mapping adjustments with the tune. Chris indicated that there was very little done to the throttle maps, and he suggested that I reflash the car, shutting it off afterward and allowing it to sit for at least 20 second so the throttle body adaptation could complete. I let the cat sit for hours before I had a chance to drive it, when I did the throttle response was markedly different, much more linear, and in my mind, easier to control.
Just thought I would chime in with this, it may explain some of the throttle variance people are seeing.

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That's a great point, and you can always run a TB adaptation on your own with VCDS as well if desired.

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