Was my engine replaced?

[Backorder]

Last week I drove out of state to purchase a certified 2017 A6 Competition Prestige. I was absolutely in love with the interior and honestly couldn't afford an S6 so I found that one reasonably close by and snatched it up.

At the dealer we noticed the inner fender well had some damage and since the part had to be ordered and we were out of state, the dealer agreed to pay for the parts and repair back in our home state. After driving it hundreds of miles home and enjoying it the whole way we pulled into the garage very early the next morning to notice the car had a slight tick coming from the engine. The next day as I was showing it off to my neighbor, he noticed it as well. Come to find out the pulley on the water pump was wobbling. No big deal, I'm under warranty.

Fast forward to yesterday, I drop the car off at my local dealership to have the parts ordered and potentially the water pump replaced. Service is rather busy so they don't get to my car until today...I receive a call saying they replaced the water pump but while they had the covers and other small parts off to replace the water pump they noticed paint pen numbers marked on a component of the engine. The service rep and his manager state they think this engine may be a used/replacement engine as that kind of marking is usually seen on replacement engines they get in.

As I wait to continue conversations with the dealership I bought it from I now have some serious questions:
- How could my car have been certified if the engine had been replaced?
- How would this not show up on a vehicle history report (there was one record where it said a minor incident detected. With the fender well the way it was I assumed at some point someone blew a tire)
- Is it possible this is just a replacement part someone put on the factory engine?
- Is there a way to determine if my car has the engine it left the factory with?
- The competition prestige has a small 7hp tuning bump vs the stock A6 3.0T. Is this something that can be determined by a diagnostic scan?
- Since it has a slight HP bump over the standard 3.0, is it possible the factory labeled a part to denote the slight tuning difference?

Picture of the paint pen numbers attached.

orig_1608317178003eb81d54 (2).jpg

Honestly I'm in love with the car and I searched a long time to find this car as a good deal, certified, near me. I love the interior, the drive, how it feels and everything about it in the short time I've been able to enjoy it. I'm just so conflicted now by the potential accusation of the local dealership and I need to know what the truth is...

[prestige.phantom]

- The competition prestige has a small 7hp tuning bump vs the stock A6 3.0T. Is this something that can be determined by a diagnostic scan?
- Since it has a slight HP bump over the standard 3.0, is it possible the factory labeled a part to denote the slight tuning difference?

Im almost 100% certain that the 7hp bump comes from an extremely mild ECU tune, so I doubt that the factory would've labeled it. I do not that a basic scan could determine that, but Id imagine that Audi's computer might.

However, the easiest way to check if its a replacement engine would be to check the VINs stamped in the Engine and see if that matches your chassis VIN on the dash. Same VIN, then factory motor. Different VIN, different motor. Simple as that.

[Backorder]

Im almost 100% certain that the 7hp bump comes from an extremely mild ECU tune, so I doubt that the factory would've labeled it. I do not that a basic scan could determine that, but Id imagine that Audi's computer might.

However, the easiest way to check if its a replacement engine would be to check the VINs stamped in the Engine and see if that matches your chassis VIN on the dash. Same VIN, then factory motor. Different VIN, different motor. Simple as that.

Thanks. I was thinking this too but was apparently not smart enough to figure out where the VIN is stamped on the engine. Is it semi accessible?

[MattyMarkey]

Thanks. I was thinking this too but was apparently not smart enough to figure out where the VIN is stamped on the engine. Is it semi accessible?

I honestly don’t believe Audi stamps their blocks with the VINs. Could be wrong, but pretty sure they have limited markings - top of manifold and in the front of the engine near the idler pulley. Something like this:



These typically have codes, not the VIN, which I think you can correlate with the sticker in the back of your trunk.

I would think the dealership you brought it to could tell you for certain.


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[eurospek]

If you run V32591 on google, you are taken to a LKQ listing of taillights from a 2016 Audi A6 parts donor car, with V32591 as it's identification. And unfortunately the markings/penmanship looks the same as your engine markings.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/16-17-18-Au...p2047675.l2557

[Backorder]

If you run V32591 on google, you are taken to a LKQ listing of taillights from a 2016 Audi A6 parts donor car, with V32591 as it's identification. And unfortunately the markings/penmanship looks the same as your engine markings.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/16-17-18-Au...p2047675.l2557

Woah...so as a follow up, I finally got in touch with the dealership I bought it from. They say it has been taken care of by another Audi dealership it’s entire life and they are sending me the documentation. Also, the local dealership doesn’t see anything else odd. I don’t understand though why there would be an undocumented engine swap with a car that’s under warranty. The item you found is definitely some good ammo to start with though on this ever increasingly weird story...

[Alabama]

These typically have codes, not the VIN, which I think you can correlate with the sticker in the back of your trunk.

For what it's worth, this is from the manual for a 2014 S6 with a picture similar to what MattyMarkey posted with that arrow being "arrow B" for the S6:

♦ The engine number -arrow B- is visible, if the housing for the
charge air cooler is removed.
♦ The first 3 digits of the engine code -arrow A- are visible, when
the engine cover is removed.
♦ The engine serial number (“engine code” and “serial number”)
is located on the front of the cylinder block on the left side
-arrow B-.

[ANMS4]

Maybe because the motor wasn’t covered under warranty, the person before probably had a tune blew the motor and didn’t have 20k to put a new Audi motor in. So went used and paid like half that then traded out of the car :/. Which would suck for you if you have a engine issues they may not cover it because it’s not the original motor.

[prestige.phantom]

Is it possible that thee marked part itself came off of the donor car from eBay and not the entire motor? Just a though...

[JoshDub]

call the major tuners and see if the car has possibly been tuned at one point in its life. If it's a replacement engine it's possible that it was blown up, swapped, and traded in.

[Backorder]

Is it possible that thee marked part itself came off of the donor car from eBay and not the entire motor? Just a though...

I’m wondering the same thing. I’m not sure exactly what part that would be on the upper left side of the engine because I’m a terrible car guy lol

[prestige.phantom]

call the major tuners and see if the car has possibly been tuned at one point in its life. If it's a replacement engine it's possible that it was blown up, swapped, and traded in.

Yea. This would easily slide through the lease return inspection. All they do is a basic walk-around and make sure everything works. Its possible that the dealer you bought it from got it at auction and didn't even know this history if the car was fixed at a non-Audi shop. Are there any modifications to the car at all?

[TEXAS-AVANT]

You service advisor can show you in their computer all the work that was done in the car through dealer. I bought a similar car, 2017 A6 competition, and I asked to see the history before buy the car. Carfax shows almost nothing.
Another car that I saw to buy, had in the historic that the engine was removed to fix the AC (S7). Maybe yours was the same and was marked in the process.


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[Backorder]

Yea. This would easily slide through the lease return inspection. All they do is a basic walk-around and make sure everything works. Its possible that the dealer you bought it from got it at auction and didn't even know this history if the car was fixed at a non-Audi shop. Are there any modifications to the car at all?

No modifications I can see. The local dealer said everything else looked good as well.

I’m going to start by calling LKQ in the morning to see if they have record of selling the engine whole or not. In addition to that I should have the history paperwork in my inbox tomorrow. Depending on the answers from that call and paperwork will determine how I proceed.

This is exactly how the dealer got it so if the engine was replaced they likely didn’t know either. If that is the case though and I can prove an engine replacement I may very well be the plaintiff in a lawsuit in the near future...

[Valpo A7]

I just glanced through the CPO checklist and I see nothing that says to check the engine VIN code. Basic visuals and various checks. If the engine bay looks right then it’s going to pass inspection, unless there are deeper aspects of the CPO program not on the checklist.

https://www.audiusa.com/dam/nemo/us/...ecklist-V2.pdf

[paul-g]

Ya definitely start with the vin checking, this would make me crazy...motor could have twice the mileage on it, you never know.

The dealership that did water pump should have started looking around and helping you... crazy they didn't... As a dealership I noticed that I would dig a Little deeper for the customer

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[Backorder]

Ya definitely start with the vin checking, this would make me crazy...motor could have twice the mileage on it, you never know.

The dealership that did water pump should have started looking around and helping you... crazy they didn't... As a dealership I noticed that I would dig a Little deeper for the customer

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This may sounds stupid but beside the standard report I got, what other ways of vin checking are recommended? Just trying to find the code on the block?

[Backorder]

So since the initial post I have talked to the dealer I bought it from, picked my car up from the local dealer and even called AudiUSA.

Still trying to personally locate something on the engine myself but I can’t really find anything. There is a yellow label on top of the supercharger that starts with CRE and a stamp on the block to the passenger side that is a six characer code ALS something but I can’t find anything else TBH. I even ended up dropping my phone in the engine compartment like an idiot...had to jack ip the car and retrieve it from below

Anyway, I will be going back to the local dealer in the near future since they had to order a new pulley to be replaced. AudiUSA and the dealer I bought it from agree that the local dealer should be able to identify if it’s the original engine or not so I’ll likely wait until then but this is just stressfully nagging at me not knowing if I was essentially ripped off with my new car.

In the owners manual I see there should be a vehicle identification label in the trunk in the spare tire compartment...I can’t seem to find that but I also don’t see anywhere it may have been removed. I even took out the spare tire and see nothing...another anomaly while I was in that compartment is the tow hook is missing...not a smoking gun and could mean anything but still an anomaly.

Looking forward to figuring this out and getting it behind me...

[christianb5s4]

This is wild, I hope you find out one way or another. How many miles are on your car? You can take the oil cap off and see how the insides of the head look and if it's clean or not.

[MattyMarkey]

So since the initial post I have talked to the dealer I bought it from, picked my car up from the local dealer and even called AudiUSA.

Still trying to personally locate something on the engine myself but I can’t really find anything. There is a yellow label on top of the supercharger that starts with CRE and a stamp on the block to the passenger side that is a six characer code ALS something but I can’t find anything else TBH. I even ended up dropping my phone in the engine compartment like an idiot...had to jack ip the car and retrieve it from below

Anyway, I will be going back to the local dealer in the near future since they had to order a new pulley to be replaced. AudiUSA and the dealer I bought it from agree that the local dealer should be able to identify if it’s the original engine or not so I’ll likely wait until then but this is just stressfully nagging at me not knowing if I was essentially ripped off with my new car.

In the owners manual I see there should be a vehicle identification label in the trunk in the spare tire compartment...I can’t seem to find that but I also don’t see anywhere it may have been removed. I even took out the spare tire and see nothing...another anomaly while I was in that compartment is the tow hook is missing...not a smoking gun and could mean anything but still an anomaly.

Looking forward to figuring this out and getting it behind me...

Very curious to know what the dealership you bought it from said when you called?

I guess being CPO, that’s saving you a bit, but dang... that seems like some shady business if it wasn’t documented.


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[Backorder]

This is wild, I hope you find out one way or another. How many miles are on your car? You can take the oil cap off and see how the insides of the head look and if it's clean or not.

The odometer shows just above 45,000 miles now.

I did see that it was serviced at regular 10,000 mile intervals at the local Audi dealer it’s entire life which makes me hopeful this is all just a bad dream but that doesn’t explain why that paint pen number is there in the first place and why that number matches 2 other used parts from LKQ on eBay. Needless to say, if this doesn’t get sorted in the next couple days it’s going to be a stressful Christmas constantly thinking “what if?”.

[Backorder]

Very curious to know what the dealership you bought it from said when you called?

I guess being CPO, that’s saving you a bit, but dang... that seems like some shady business if it wasn’t documented.


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They pretty much said they pulled the CARFAX and another similar report and did a full CPO inspection. They also told me they will send me all the service records from the previous dealership. They weren’t happy that someone would tell me that and not show proof which just leaves me hanging.

My hope is I take it back and they tell me it’s my original engine, sorry for the mixup and I’m good to go...but we shall see :-/

[MattyMarkey]

They pretty much said they pulled the CARFAX and another similar report and did a full CPO inspection. They also told me they will send me all the service records from the previous dealership. They weren’t happy that someone would tell me that and not show proof which just leaves me hanging.

My hope is I take it back and they tell me it’s my original engine, sorry for the mixup and I’m good to go...but we shall see :-/

I can see why they would be upset the dealership told you it may be used/replaced without verifying for themselves and the customer (you).

I mean, that entire statement has lead you to this point... whether it’s accurate or not, give you more information. Geesh.

For what it’s worth, which isn’t much, cause I don’t think you’ll be able to ascertain much info from it without other markings in the engine bay... the sticker is pretty noticeable, if it’s there.

For reference, this is my S7. Should be in or around the same area on your A6 (my A6 was located on this side as well.




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[Alabama]

Thanks. I was thinking this too but was apparently not smart enough to figure out where the VIN is stamped on the engine. Is it semi accessible?

Sorry this probably won't be helpful but I learned something new. NHTSA does require VIN stamping on engines: "In 1994, the Theft Prevention Standard was amended by extending the parts-marking requirements originally specific to passenger cars, to include multipurpose passenger vehicles (MPVs) and light-duty trucks (rated at 6,000 pounds gross vehicle weight or less). This rule also listed the covered major component parts and replacement parts to be marked for each of the classes of vehicles (the engine, transmission, front/rear bumper, right/left front fender, hood, right/left front door, right/left rear door, sliding cargo door(s), right/left quarter panel (passenger cars), right/left side assembly (MPVs), pickup box, and /or cargo box (light-duty trucks), rear doors, decklid or hatchback and tailgate)". The problem is that apparently many Audis may be exempt because they have anti-theft devices installed. The Blauparts website implies that dealers know how to identify an engine, but it's secret! Another website implies the knowledge is only shared with law enforcement. It's hard to imagine those compulsive German engineers would not keep track of which engine went into which car body, or that EU regulations would be more lax than NHTSA!

[bahula03]

Curiosity got the best of me as far as finding engine markings. The easiest thing seems to be a sticker on the timing chain cover (back of the motor) on the passenger side of the car, which is present on my C7 and matches the engraving that's visible on the top front passenger side of the motor. That engraving is tough to see, but looking down with a torch about where the arrow is in the attached photo should show it. Photos are all from eBay, hopefully this is helpful!

s-l1600-2.jpg

s-l1600.jpg

s-l1600-1.jpg

[Backorder]

Curiosity got the best of me as far as finding engine markings. The easiest thing seems to be a sticker on the timing chain cover (back of the motor) on the passenger side of the car, which is present on my C7 and matches the engraving that's visible on the top front passenger side of the motor. That engraving is tough to see, but looking down with a torch about where the arrow is in the attached photo should show it. Photos are all from eBay, hopefully this is helpful!

You sir are awesome! Was able to find the sticker and it actually matches a dotted yellow sticker on top of the supercharger as well. Now I just need the Vehicle ID Label which is nowhere to be found but I have asked AudiUSA if they have that info (which they should as I’ve seen another member here or elsewhere request a new one from Germany). 1 step closer!

So the one on the engine starts with CRE. Does that ring a bell to anyone? Is that right for a 3.0t engine in 2017?

[Backorder]

On that sticker does “bei allen pruef-und einstellarbeiten” mean date of installation? If so, that would definitely be way off...google translation isn’t doing the best on that...

[Burnt]

Shouldn't the VIN be engraved into a metal part of the engine? It prevents salvagers to replace and claim as original, heard they grind off the VIN.

[bahula03]

You sir are awesome! Was able to find the sticker and it actually matches a dotted yellow sticker on top of the supercharger as well. Now I just need the Vehicle ID Label which is nowhere to be found but I have asked AudiUSA if they have that info (which they should as I’ve seen another member here or elsewhere request a new one from Germany). 1 step closer!

So the one on the engine starts with CRE. Does that ring a bell to anyone? Is that right for a 3.0t engine in 2017?

Happy to help Looking at my build sheet, it shows the engine code towards the top and the corresponding option code further down, but not the serial number from the block/timing chain cover sticker...so not sure I'd get your hopes up there. That said, I can't imagine that Audi won't be able to piece things together or tell you what serial number the car was built with. CRE is the engine code, usually referred to as CREC, which is correct for your car (I have no idea why the fourth letter gets dropped, maybe one of the more encyclopedic members can chime in). This post has good info about all of the 3.0T code variants- https://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...1#post14319655

This whole thing is so bizarre I hate to assume anything that isn't clearly supported, but your build/assembly date theory makes sense. Looking at it as year.month.day, my assembly date is a month or so before the build date of the car, which seems pretty reasonable. Maybe others can chime in to see if their dates are similar since it's easy to check.

Shouldn't the VIN be engraved into a metal part of the engine? It prevents salvagers to replace and claim as original, heard they grind off the VIN.

Without wading into the legal requirements, I'm pretty sure VINs are rarely, if ever, used in newer cars on the engine/trans if only because of the logistics. I took a look at my other car (the engine bay is a bit less 10lb in a 5lb bag than the Audi ) and it's the same deal- engine code followed by numeric serial number, no VIN. As far as I can tell, the only unique identifiers (ie, not part numbers) on the 3.0T block are the previously mentioned one on the left bank, and below the right cylinder head. Neither are the VIN and it doesn't *seem* like they're the same number.

EEN61LaxvKpMYz6nVvh5VIR3vK7Gdbao.jpeg

rB7Uk7axAPfiJIL6gPWPb1kwAPNoMgr1.jpeg

[Valpo A7]

Stamping or engraving a VIN on an engine has been a legal requirement in almost all nations since 1954.

[bakedziti]

LKQ is still parting VIN# WAUFGAFC7GN015831 or stock# V32591-321. I’m not sure that the LKQ link will come through to the item or to their search page like it used to.

https://www.lkqonline.com/2016-AUDI-...O/-i~249816679

[Backorder]

LKQ is still parting VIN# WAUFGAFC7GN015831 or stock# V32591-321. I’m not sure that the LKQ link will come through to the item or to their search page like it used to.

Thanks! I just tried calling but they were unable to tell me if the engine is something they sold in the past or not. I’m sure they have record but this particular individual either didn’t want to look or share that.

On the plus side, I sent the information I found last night to AudiUSA and have asked for confirmation of what my engine serial number should be as well as what the date means on that sticker I found. Hopefully will hear something today then when I take it back to the local dealer I can have them find the serial number on the engine block for confirmation.

FYI, I love your user name!

[bakedziti]

FYI, I love your user name!

Thank you!

From my engine replacement experience with LKQ, they likely do not have a record of the sale in a searchable system. I believe they purge the records frequently because I couldn’t find anything in my account regarding my original order, or the replacement LKQ had to send after some damage in shipping. LKQ also used to let you search all of the parts tied to a VIN that were still available, but it does not appear that we still have that option on their website.

I hope it all works out for you!

[bahula03]

Stamping or engraving a VIN on an engine has been a legal requirement in almost all nations since 1954.

To take the ambiguity out of this because there are a statements about this here and out on the web, it is not a requirement. The relevant portion from the current federal standard says,

"(e) The VIN of each vehicle shall appear clearly and indelibly upon either a part of the vehicle, other than the glazing, that is not designed to be removed except for repair or upon a separate plate or label that is permanently affixed to such a part.
(f) The VIN for passenger cars, multi- purpose passenger vehicles, low speed vehicles, and trucks of 4536 kg or less GVWR shall be located inside the passenger compartment. It shall be readable, without moving any part of the vehicle, through the vehicle glazing under daylight lighting conditions by an observer having 20/20 vision (Snellen) whose eye-point is located outside the vehicle adjacent to the left windshield pillar. Each character in the VIN subject to this paragraph shall have a minimum height of 4 mm."

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/...l6-part565.pdf

If you've got information that supersedes that standard, I'm all ears

[bahula03]

Sorry this probably won't be helpful but I learned something new. NHTSA does require VIN stamping on engines: "In 1994, the Theft Prevention Standard was amended by extending the parts-marking requirements originally specific to passenger cars, to include multipurpose passenger vehicles (MPVs) and light-duty trucks (rated at 6,000 pounds gross vehicle weight or less). This rule also listed the covered major component parts and replacement parts to be marked for each of the classes of vehicles (the engine, transmission, front/rear bumper, right/left front fender, hood, right/left front door, right/left rear door, sliding cargo door(s), right/left quarter panel (passenger cars), right/left side assembly (MPVs), pickup box, and /or cargo box (light-duty trucks), rear doors, decklid or hatchback and tailgate)". The problem is that apparently many Audis may be exempt because they have anti-theft devices installed. The Blauparts website implies that dealers know how to identify an engine, but it's secret! Another website implies the knowledge is only shared with law enforcement. It's hard to imagine those compulsive German engineers would not keep track of which engine went into which car body, or that EU regulations would be more lax than NHTSA!

Came across this from 2017 which lists exemptions, and it's pretty much complete lineups for newer cars haha. The anti-theft/immobilizer exception is exactly it, at the bottom it says that in 2005 "manufacturers are permitted to petition the agency to exempt low-theft vehicle lines equipped with antitheft devices from the parts-marking requirements beginning with model year 2006" and in 2016, they "add(ed) a streamlined exemption procedure for immobilizer-equipped vehicles by adding performance criteria for immobilizers." Even at the "peak" of the Theft Prevention Standard, it was applicable based on the theft rates for a given model line (or if another line had interchangeable parts with a high theft rate model), so not by any means every car out there.

https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.do...nts/812452.pdf

TIL

[Alabama]

Came across this from 2017 which lists exemptions, and it's pretty much complete lineups for newer cars haha. The anti-theft/immobilizer exception is exactly it, at the bottom it says that in 2005 "manufacturers are permitted to petition the agency to exempt low-theft vehicle lines equipped with antitheft devices from the parts-marking requirements beginning with model year 2006" and in 2016, they "add(ed) a streamlined exemption procedure for immobilizer-equipped vehicles by adding performance criteria for immobilizers." Even at the "peak" of the Theft Prevention Standard, it was applicable based on the theft rates for a given model line (or if another line had interchangeable parts with a high theft rate model), so not by any means every car out there.

https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.do...nts/812452.pdf

TIL

As you and I note, many Audis may be exempt from the VIN requirement, but wouldn't that serial number you found on the timing chain cover be unique? I would assume Audi has a database somewhere that matches engine serial number with VIN. My Monroney label shows that Audi knows my engine was made in Hungary. I can't imagine that Audi does not keep track of which engine manufactured in Hungary went into which car in Neckarsulm!
As regards the missing Vehicle ID sticker in the trunk, other AZ members sent me to erWin, where the information may be downloaded (for a small fee). Maybe the dealer would do it for free.

[bahula03]

Yeah, absolutely agreed that Audi has a detailed BOM for each of the cars they build. From experience in other businesses, that information usually isn't customer-facing because it doesn't need to be. Should just be a matter of getting in touch with the right person at Audi and giving them impetus to dig the info up, which seems to be underway here. Wouldn't be surprised if it takes a few extra days to resolve though, most of these people are probably out of (virtual) office till next year.

[Backorder]

Yeah, absolutely agreed that Audi has a detailed BOM for each of the cars they build. From experience in other businesses, that information usually isn't customer-facing because it doesn't need to be. Should just be a matter of getting in touch with the right person at Audi and giving them impetus to dig the info up, which seems to be underway here. Wouldn't be surprised if it takes a few extra days to resolve though, most of these people are probably out of (virtual) office till next year.

That is what I’m hoping for. Well I HOPE it doesn’t take until the new year but who knows...initial contact with AudiUSA via phone was Monday. Monday night I emailed some additional info. Tuesday morning I emailed more additional info after discovering the serial # and sticker tag with the odd date. IF they were in the office and got that message I assume they may even have to contact Germany for the info since that’s where the car was built. I plan to let the case sit until Monday afternoon-ish and will call AudiUSA back to get an update.

Tuesday I bring the car back locally to have a pulley replaced they had to order and while I’m there I’m having them look for the stamped number on the engine block to confirm with the sticker. After that it’s all a process of “does it match?” The build data. I have this solved next week...

I do appreciate everyone’s comments and assistance. I’m still driving the car every chance I get because I legitimately love it. I just need to know if the engine has 45,000 miles or over 60,000 from a junkyard

[Sima-Koya]

I can check tomorrow if VIN in the advert belongs to the serial number of the engine in your car.

[Backorder]

I can check tomorrow if VIN in the advert belongs to the serial number of the engine in your car.

If I gave you my car’s VIN would you be able to cross check that too? Just out of curiosity I assume you work for Audi?