K04/Hybrid & Big Turbo Support Group

**Iceman502** · 12-07-2020 09:23 PM

Originally Posted by EvolutionArmory

Or you could just use the rule of thumb that you should run a wastegate pressure of half your requested boost. There’s probably reasons why this is a widely accepted rule. Fighting back pressure is most likely one of them. 😉

Knowing what back pressure these turbos actually see would be great though.

Rather than a rule of thumb, the idea is to develop a numerical method that is more accurate and can get users to their optimal crack pressure faster than trial and error. A wastegate canister with a different diaphragm surface area or flapper lever length would start to stray from that rule, but it would still follow the math behind summing moments.

**Spawne32** · 12-07-2020 09:33 PM

You can't just make the crack pressure of the stock wastegate or any of the non adjustable wastegates to half your target pressure just like that. The tighter you make the wastegate, the more rod travel you lose, which prevents the wastegate flapper from opening fully. So far it seems like most people can get away with 8-9psi of crack pressure without issues of boost creep.

**JLAllroad** · 12-07-2020 09:35 PM

So.....how about that wastegate thread

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**Nano909** · 12-07-2020 09:50 PM

Originally Posted by JLAllroad

So.....how about that wastegate thread

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He won't make one, then he'll have no reason to keep coming here.

**Spawne32** · 12-07-2020 09:56 PM

Originally Posted by JLAllroad

So.....how about that wastegate thread

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What would the title be? "B8 wastegate support thread: hosted by guy who has never owned one"

**Falor124** · 12-07-2020 10:43 PM

Not sure if I missed it, has anyone looked into the new CTS Hybrid K04 X? Wondering how it would play with APR tune.

**A4B8 2.0tfsi** · 12-08-2020 02:11 AM

If Spawne and Nano would grow up and quit bullying other members, most threads on AZ would be sweet.

As for my wastegate rod travel, I get full open flap, all the way up to ~14 crack pressure. Then it begins restricting travel, but at ~9.5 crack as it is now, no problem with either rod travel or boost creep.

And the CTS turbo/N75/wastegate set-up, is obviously a faulty one, just buying and mounting whatever pieces they could get there hands on at the time. To get kinks like that in the hoses, is just because they did a crappy mounting.

**EvolutionArmory** · 12-08-2020 03:43 AM

Originally Posted by Spawne32

What would the title be? "B8 wastegate support thread: hosted by guy who has never owned one"

Your thread was a great resource where you could learn all about it with graphs showing what anywhere from 6-9 PSI did to the boost curve.

But you had it closed like a child would. Took your ball and went home.

It’s too bad that you and Nano couldn’t accept that the same turbo will react similarly on both our cars. You still can’t accept that our engines aren’t night and day different.

If you guys had gone with APR instead of IE and set your wastegates up to 8-10 PSI like I said, that thread would have been much shorter and your cars would all be faster.

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**EvolutionArmory** · 12-08-2020 04:11 AM

Originally Posted by A4B8 2.0tfsi

If Spawne and Nano would grow up and quit bullying other members, most threads on AZ would be sweet.

As for my wastegate rod travel, I get full open flap, all the way up to ~14 crack pressure. Then it begins restricting travel, but at ~9.5 crack as it is now, no problem with either rod travel or boost creep.

And the CTS turbo/N75/wastegate set-up, is obviously a faulty one, just buying and mounting whatever pieces they could get there hands on at the time. To get kinks like that in the hoses, is just because they did a crappy mounting.

These guys are talking to me about rod travel using specs I told them, which is funny.

Yet I doubt many or any of them have measured how much they actually have using a proper metered air system and an actual dial indicator.

The proper crack pressure for a turbo making 22 PSI is probably 10-11. Higher than that probably won’t gain you anything and lower than that can work if the N75 has enough headroom. My car overboosts a lot with a 9 crack pressure but N75 duty is only at 80%. Upping it to 99% through tuning would regulate it better but it’s an OTS tune so I took it upon myself to add a secondary way to vent boost. A MBC.

Which brings up my next point. The biggest variable to that being successful is the tune and its ability to actually control the N75. Not the turbo or it being in a B7 or B8. And that is assuming the wastegate on your turbo is actually the right size. Would you agree?

If your tune’s N75 table isn’t written well or if your wastegate is simply not long enough, you’re gonna get bad results no matter what. That still doesn’t change the fact that 10-11 PSI is about what you want for a turbo running 22+ PSI but slightly less will also work if there’s headroom.

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**schwiz23** · 12-08-2020 05:38 AM

Found 5 separate boost leaks last night. That turbo boost leak tester is pretty amazing. Each of the charge pipe connections had a leak as well as the brass nipple that connects to the PCV breather (I believe) also had a leak. I could barely build pressure to 5 PSI before I could hear air escaping. Going to grab some thread sealant for the brass piece as apparently teflon tape didn't work very well. Also need a new hose clamp that isn't a cheap harbor freight one, lol. I can confirm that the wg is moving smoothly and there are no other leaks on the wg, n75 plumbing, or turbine. Pretty excited I was able to find these. Hopefully I'll be able to log tonight after work.

**Traptalk** · 12-08-2020 06:07 AM

Originally Posted by schwiz23

Found 5 separate boost leaks last night. That turbo boost leak tester is pretty amazing. Each of the charge pipe connections had a leak as well as the brass nipple that connects to the PCV breather (I believe) also had a leak. I could barely build pressure to 5 PSI before I could hear air escaping. Going to grab some thread sealant for the brass piece as apparently teflon tape didn't work very well. Also need a new hose clamp that isn't a cheap harbor freight one, lol. I can confirm that the wg is moving smoothly and there are no other leaks on the wg, n75 plumbing, or turbine. Pretty excited I was able to find these. Hopefully I'll be able to log tonight after work.

That brass nipple is the vacuum line that runs over the top of the Motor to the IM runners and evap system

**Iceman502** · 12-08-2020 07:13 AM

Originally Posted by schwiz23

Found 5 separate boost leaks last night. That turbo boost leak tester is pretty amazing. Each of the charge pipe connections had a leak as well as the brass nipple that connects to the PCV breather (I believe) also had a leak. I could barely build pressure to 5 PSI before I could hear air escaping. Going to grab some thread sealant for the brass piece as apparently teflon tape didn't work very well. Also need a new hose clamp that isn't a cheap harbor freight one, lol. I can confirm that the wg is moving smoothly and there are no other leaks on the wg, n75 plumbing, or turbine. Pretty excited I was able to find these. Hopefully I'll be able to log tonight after work.

Sounds like progress! I think your logs will look pretty different on the top end

**Iceman502** · 12-08-2020 07:15 AM

Originally Posted by A4B8 2.0tfsi

As for my wastegate rod travel, I get full open flap, all the way up to ~14 crack pressure. Then it begins restricting travel, but at ~9.5 crack as it is now, no problem with either rod travel or boost creep.

Are you using the original actuator?

With the actuator on the eBay turbo, I don't think the threads on the rod go down far enough for it to be anywhere close to that.

**A4B8 2.0tfsi** · 12-08-2020 08:18 AM

Using the wastegate that came with my F23L. Lots of thread left and didn´t even tried to adjust further then 14 psi, since I didn´t felt any need to.

**Iceman502** · 12-08-2020 08:34 AM

Originally Posted by A4B8 2.0tfsi

Using the wastegate that came with my F23L. Lots of thread left and didn´t even tried to adjust further then 14 psi, since I didn´t felt any need to.

Both interesting and surprising, do you have any logs with your custom tune?

**Nano909** · 12-08-2020 08:53 AM

Originally Posted by A4B8 2.0tfsi

If Spawne and Nano would grow up and quit bullying other members, most threads on AZ would be sweet.

Adding fuel to the fire bud.

**Spawne32** · 12-08-2020 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by A4B8 2.0tfsi

If Spawne and Nano would grow up and quit bullying other members, most threads on AZ would be sweet.

As for my wastegate rod travel, I get full open flap, all the way up to ~14 crack pressure. Then it begins restricting travel, but at ~9.5 crack as it is now, no problem with either rod travel or boost creep.

And the CTS turbo/N75/wastegate set-up, is obviously a faulty one, just buying and mounting whatever pieces they could get there hands on at the time. To get kinks like that in the hoses, is just because they did a crappy mounting.

Maybe I should remind you that EA was the one who got all the posts deleted in this thread, not me nor Nano, and it was EA that was the cause of the last thread being locked. There is a difference between contributing information and being a self righteous douche that wants everyone to give him praise for being right 25% of the time. Our issue that started over a year ago now with his posting was that he was making recommendations to people that were incorrect, and failing to disclose the fact that not only does he not even own one of our cars, but his information is based entirely on a different car that doesn't work the same way. Then argues with the entire group that all 4 cylinder car's work the same.

Trap has done more to advance the "ebay turbo" thread than any other person including myself, so if anyone is going to listen to advice, listen to what he has to say, as he actually has a B8, and one of the best built ebay turbos ever to come out of that thread.

**EvolutionArmory** · 12-08-2020 11:11 AM

And he did what I recommended. Upped crack pressure and got a good tune 🤣🤣🤣

Maybe he didn’t do it because I said it but he did it and his car runs now.

What I have is right in my sig and I’ve told you plenty of times that someone with a B8 helped me when my turbo wouldn’t hit boost. Why did his info work for me? Because the engines aren’t that different and the turbos are the same exact thing. And even in your last comment you still don’t understand what I was saying🤣

I didn’t say all 4 cylinders work the same. I said our engines have the same displacement and use the same exact turbo. The results should be similar.

And they are but you and Nano keep getting hung up on me having a B7. You guys don’t have faster cars because your engine is superior to mine. You only make a few percent more power. Your cars are faster on the track because of gearing and shifting advantages. But as far as power goes, the difference isn’t that big. You can run this turbo with a couple more PSI than I can and you can actually fuel it. I would need a 3 bar map sensor tune. At the end of the day we all have 350-360 CHP Audi 4 cylinder cars.

Please get it.

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**Nano909** · 12-08-2020 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by Spawne32

Maybe I should remind you that EA was the one who got all the posts deleted in this thread, not me nor Nano, and it was EA that was the cause of the last thread being locked. There is a difference between contributing information and being a self righteous douche that wants everyone to give him praise for being right 25% of the time. Our issue that started over a year ago now with his posting was that he was making recommendations to people that were incorrect, and failing to disclose the fact that not only does he not even own one of our cars, but his information is based entirely on a different car that doesn't work the same way. Then argues with the entire group that all 4 cylinder car's work the same.

Trap has done more to advance the "ebay turbo" thread than any other person including myself, so if anyone is going to listen to advice, listen to what he has to say, as he actually has a B8, and one of the best built ebay turbos ever to come out of that thread.

It's okay bro. Guy derails any thread he's in but it's somehow all our fault 🤣

**EvolutionArmory** · 12-08-2020 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by Nano909

It's okay bro. Guy derails any thread he's in but it's somehow all our fault 🤣

If derail means to give ideas that actually work most of the time, then yes. I derail every thread I’m in.

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**EvolutionArmory** · 12-08-2020 01:17 PM

And another thing about Trap’s car since you brought him up. It’s funny that I mentioned people going out and running the Forge K04 wastegate because people were bleeding boost with K04’s. He then went out and bought one and it works.

So it looks like everything I’ve been saying has been true.

The IE tune isn’t any good.

Your made in Taiwan wastegates weren’t any good.

And crack pressure should be around half of your target boost.

His car runs right because he runs APR with a Forge wastegate set to 10 or more PSI.

You’re welcome. I’m not looking for praise. That’s not why I chimed in originally. I just wanted to return the favor I got from A4X. But some of you guys should at least man up and admit that I was right even though I don’t even own a B8.

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**Perry01** · 12-08-2020 01:25 PM

Originally Posted by Stubek

Keep it clean, civil, and adult folks.

The moderator should close this one too. The three of you are ruining another good thread. How old are you guys?

**Spawne32** · 12-08-2020 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by EvolutionArmory

And another thing about Trap’s car since you brought him up. It’s funny that I mentioned people going out and running the Forge K04 wastegate because people were bleeding boost with K04’s. He then went out and bought one and it works.

So it looks like everything I’ve been saying has been true.

The IE tune isn’t any good.

Your made in Taiwan wastegates weren’t any good.

And crack pressure should be around half of your target boost.

His car runs right because he runs APR with a Forge wastegate set to 10 or more PSI.

You’re welcome. I’m not looking for praise. That’s not why I chimed in originally. I just wanted to return the favor I got from A4X. But some of you guys should at least man up and admit that I was right even though I don’t even own a B8.

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You just, can't help yourself can you. None of those thing's you listed are the result of anything you have said. No one here has their crack pressure set to half their target pressure which is what you kept trying to get everyone to do. Multiple people on this forum have been running 30psi with crack pressures at 6-7psi.

You are so desperate for attention its revolting. It's no wonder you were drummed out of the B7 forum. How you haven't been banned yet is beyond me.

**Jake@JHM** · 12-08-2020 01:29 PM

Originally Posted by Spawne32

You just, can't help yourself can you. None of those thing's you listed are the result of anything you have said. No one here has their crack pressure set to half their target pressure which is what you kept trying to get everyone to do. Multiple people on this forum have been running 30psi with crack pressures at 6-7psi.

You are so desperate for attention its revolting. It's no wonder you were drummed out of the B7 forum. How you haven't been banned yet is beyond me.

Whos running 30psi on a k04?

**Spawne32** · 12-08-2020 01:31 PM

Originally Posted by Jake@JHM

Whos running 30psi on a k04?

I was actually slightly over 30.

However, myself, bb, and others have been testing 28psi for months now. Wasn't until the last week or so that we dialed it back for testing changes in the direct injection angle.

**Spawne32** · 12-08-2020 01:37 PM

In case anyone doesn't believe it, YOLO mode running 2.96 bar on 76.9% DC. Still a lot of work to be done which I am sure jake understands having been developing their own software.

**Jake@JHM** · 12-08-2020 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by Spawne32

I was actually slightly over 30.

However, myself, bb, and others have been testing 28psi for months now. Wasn't until the last week or so that we dialed it back for testing changes in the direct injection angle.

Gotcha.. when you say running 28+ psi, what do you mean by that?

Spike?

@ redline?

**Spawne32** · 12-08-2020 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by Jake@JHM

Gotcha.. when you say running 28+ psi, what do you mean by that?

Spike?

@ redline?

Peak boost. It will hold above requested (2.55 bar request) until about 5k. Issue that we have been working on, is trying to uncover what actually is making the WG DC taper down as the RPM increases, instead of up. We want to see a steady rise from peak boost all the way up to 90% DC at 6k. It's just not doing that. We also have been playing around testing DI angles, but with the high boost levels it's been tricky to keep it from going lean. Got some good results this morning though.

**EvolutionArmory** · 12-08-2020 01:42 PM

A K03 can hit 30 psi 🤣🤣 Doesn’t mean it can hold it.

Doesn’t mean it’s making more power.

Doesn’t mean it’s efficient.

And making that much boost, you really should run a higher wastegate pressure. K04 back backpressure is high at 20-22 PSI. It must be astronomical at 30.

I don’t even want to guess what your EGT’s must be.

I’m really afraid for you guys now. One of you is going to blow up a motor.

What really makes me nervous is that your tuner is encouraging you to do this and doesn’t understand these things.

Jake, what do you think?

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**Spawne32** · 12-08-2020 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by EvolutionArmory

A K03 can hit 30 psi 🤣🤣 Doesn’t mean it can hold it.

Doesn’t mean it’s making more power.

Doesn’t mean it’s efficient.

I’m really afraid for you guys now. One of you is going to blow up a motor.

What really makes me nervous is that your tuner is encouraging you to do this.

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Nothing you say hold's any weight around here, I just want to point that out. Mars has already posted these compressor maps to show that 28psi is still within an efficient range for a K04. We are confident that 28 is a sweet spot for 300+ wheel torque, we just want to be sure the fuel system can handle it.

**EvolutionArmory** · 12-08-2020 01:53 PM

Who cares about peak boost? My car was peaking 30 PSI before the MBC went in.

I mean this with all sincerity. You guys are gonna throw a rod or melt a piston.

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**Jake@JHM** · 12-08-2020 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by Spawne32

Peak boost. It will hold above requested (2.55 bar request) until about 5k. Issue that we have been working on, is trying to uncover what actually is making the WG DC taper down as the RPM increases, instead of up. We want to see a steady rise from peak boost all the way up to 90% DC at 6k. It's just not doing that. We also have been playing around testing DI angles, but with the high boost levels it's been tricky to keep it from going lean. Got some good results this morning though.

Ok you're referring to the spike.

Be careful with that. B7 guys had some fun with Meastro back in the day and convinced themselves you couldn't run K04s on stock rods. B8 rods are a little stronger than the B7 spaghetti rods luckily. We got away with making bigger power with the B7 using the TD05H-R on stock internals because the torque was shifted higher in the RPM range where it is less detrimental to the internal components.

Keep in mind the boost PSI is a measurement of restriction. If your engine is consuming 100% of the CFM your turbo is pushing, you will have 0 PSI of boost. The higher your RPM is, the more CFM your engine is consuming.

Also keep in mind that just because you can run XX PSI on a K04, doesn't mean you should. Pay attention to efficiency ranges.

**Jake@JHM** · 12-08-2020 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by EvolutionArmory

A K03 can hit 30 psi 🤣🤣 Doesn’t mean it can hold it.

Doesn’t mean it’s making more power.

Doesn’t mean it’s efficient.

And making that much boost, you really should run a higher wastegate pressure. K04 back backpressure is high at 20-22 PSI. It must be astronomical at 30.

I don’t even want to guess what your EGT’s must be.

I’m really afraid for you guys now. One of you is going to blow up a motor.

What really makes me nervous is that your tuner is encouraging you to do this and doesn’t understand these things.

Jake, what do you think?

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Correct.

I would be more worried about IAT than EGT in this scenario

**EvolutionArmory** · 12-08-2020 01:56 PM

These guys can’t be reasoned with Jake. I’ve been trying for a year.

They’re repeating all the mistakes from the Maestro days like you said.

The worst part is if you try to teach them anything you’re a know it all a hole. 🤣🤣

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**Jake@JHM** · 12-08-2020 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by EvolutionArmory

These guys can’t be reasoned with Jake. I’ve been trying for a year.

They’re repeating all the mistakes from the Maestro days like you said.

The worst part is if you try to teach them anything you’re a know it all a hole. 🤣🤣

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The best way to learn is to break stuff. You don't know what you don't know.

**EvolutionArmory** · 12-08-2020 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by Jake@JHM

Correct.

I would be more worried about IAT than EGT in this scenario

None of these HP Tuner guys are running water meth either. I’m legit worried about their cars

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**Spawne32** · 12-08-2020 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by Jake@JHM

Ok you're referring to the spike.

Be careful with that. B7 guys had some fun with Meastro back in the day and convinced themselves you couldn't run K04s on stock rods. B8 rods are a little stronger than the B7 spaghetti rods luckily. We got away with making bigger power with the B7 using the TD05H-R on stock internals because the torque was shifted higher in the RPM range where it is less detrimental to the internal components.

Keep in mind the boost PSI is a measurement of restriction. If your engine is consuming 100% of the CFM your turbo is pushing, you will have 0 PSI of boost. The higher your RPM is, the more CFM your engine is consuming.

Also keep in mind that just because you can run XX PSI on a K04, doesn't mean you should. Pay attention to efficiency ranges.

I understand all of those concerns but as far as Maestro goes...well that program shouldn't ever be used on any car for anything. Ultimately we will probably dial it back somewhere between 24-26psi, as personally I don't think the car is even capable of making 300+whp on a K04 on 93 octane myself, regardless of whether its 24, 26 or 28psi, without additional mods. My IAT's have been solid even through most of the summer, only ever getting about 10* above ambient (fahrenheit) as long as the car was moving. Knock is virtually non existent and the plugs look excellent. What will wind up getting us will probably either be a random lean condition or just exceeding how much power the rods are capable of handling. On the table right now is what to do about upgrading the low pressure fuel pump on my car and probably bb's car sometime in the near future. Both of our pumps are old and tired, so either way, even a new OEM pump would make me feel better about all of this.

**Jake@JHM** · 12-08-2020 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by Spawne32

I understand all of those concerns but as far as Maestro goes...well that program shouldn't ever be used on any car for anything. Ultimately we will probably dial it back somewhere between 24-26psi, as personally I don't think the car is even capable of making 300+whp on a K04 on 93 octane myself, regardless of whether its 24, 26 or 28psi, without additional mods. My IAT's have been solid even through most of the summer, only ever getting about 10* above ambient (fahrenheit) as long as the car was moving. Knock is virtually non existent and the plugs look excellent. What will wind up getting us will probably either be a random lean condition or just exceeding how much power the rods are capable of handling. On the table right now is what to do about upgrading the low pressure fuel pump on my car and probably bb's car sometime in the near future. Both of our pumps are old and tired, so either way, even a new OEM pump would make me feel better about all of this.

What is your lpfp dc?

You also account for atmospheric pressure when calculating boost correct? Edit* just saw your vcm post. you are

**Spawne32** · 12-08-2020 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by Jake@JHM

What is your lpfp dc?

You also account for atmospheric pressure when calculating boost correct?

Yes, today's run was 2.79 bar on the log, which is 25.9psi roughly when I do the conversion. We don't have the actual PID for LPFP DC to log but we are seeing 5 bar on the LPFP request. This is what the DC table looks like that we are using, this is still factory.

The AG ECU's for some reason have more channels to log compared to the 09's "AL", but again, still a work in progress and we have multiple requests with hptuners to get more options available to us.

**Iceman502** · 12-08-2020 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by EvolutionArmory

The IE tune isn’t any good.

I'm sitting here quietly becuase I don't want to get wrapped up in the rest of it, but I will speak up for IE. I do not think this is a fair claim to make given that I am only one OTS IE user who is sharing data on this thread, and using a turbocharger that is not completely in line with BorgWarner K04 specs that the tune was developed with. As a result, I'm having to tinker with things to get the turbo's physical characterstics to line up with what the tune is supposed to be paired with.

You also have never used IE for tuning, so without any first hand experience, I just don't think you don't have the ground to stand on to make that claim in a thread where others are going to look for guidance on how to spend their money and invest their time. They've been incredibly successful developing numerous tunes for Audi/VW platforms, and all but one time, their customer support has been congruent and spot on in my experience.

I'm just curious here, what's my benchmark that will meet your quals for a "good tune?" Record a log where I hold 20 psi of boost at 6k with 10 degrees of timing advance and no correction? Flow 300 g/s?