10.06 B8 S4

[one_sk]

Hey folks,

Long time lurker posting here.

When my single turbo 3.0 TFSI spun a bearing at 12 psi I was looking for a replacement engine, and in the weird reality of Euro used car parts it turned out easier to swap in 4.0 instead of messing around with the V6. So I sold the turbo kit.

The car had been running fine most of the 2020 on pump and have surprised many on the streets, but I didn't time it properly on the track, as all prepped ones are closed due to C19. So the other day I took out seats, poured in some E20 and went to do some runs on a public road.

Done a few pulls, and this 2010 B8 S4 (with a twist) did run a 10.06@137 on Dragy:



I see some controversy regarding whether my car can be considered the world's fastest B8 S4 or world's fastest stock turbo 4.0T, but I sure do like how it runs. With some more pulls I could have squeezed nines out of it but the weather is not nice here in Minsk so I decided to stop screwing with this puny snails and proceed with 1000+ whp build over the winter.

Currently it's putting out 750bhp/1180nm by the way. On the stock clutch :)

I'm too lazy to do a build thread for now so if you are really curious for some reason try Google Translate from Russian here: https://www.drive2.ru/r/audi/s4/985549/

Cheers :)

[ALAN12186]

wow that's so sick! what ecu is it running? all gauges and everything function?

[one_sk]

wow that's so sick! what ecu is it running? all gauges and everything function?

RS6 ECU and loom. Loom is adapted for S-tronic plug (RS6 are ZF8 stock) and B8 chassis T17 sockets. All the rest units are B8 S4. Cluster is fully functional, as well as cruise control, ABS/ESP, etc. There are occasional errors which I haven't coded out yet but for the most part it drives like it came this way from factory.

[bronz]

insane!! love it

[mmamobile]

Well, guess I won't be standing up for a little while.

[Snowmonkey]

damn...

that launch squat though

[ALAN12186]

I YOU COULD DO THIS AND HAVE A MANUAL TRANS I WOULD BE DOING THIS IN A HEART BEAT

[cmiguel32]

I YOU COULD DO THIS AND HAVE A MANUAL TRANS I WOULD BE DOING THIS IN A HEART BEAT

THIS!

[one_sk]

I YOU COULD DO THIS AND HAVE A MANUAL TRANS I WOULD BE DOING THIS IN A HEART BEAT

Lol this is even easier then, your only problem would be sourcing a 1200 nm capable clutch.

[Hofahome]

Hell ya man!


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[fastboatster]

B8 S4 build of the century, no doubt.

[coop3422]

I was expecting a flurry of "you shouldn't be doing that on public roads" comment. Shockingly not a single 1 haha.

This think is a monster. I NEED an engine bay shot lol.

Oh, and add me to the list of "if this were a manual".... lol

[ALAN12186]

how could you do a manual? how would the rs6 ecu handle it? can a manual trans even bolt up?

[one_sk]

how could you do a manual? how would the rs6 ecu handle it? can a manual trans even bolt up?

Check out Brian Haenszel Quattro Coupe 4.0 swap. It's manual.

I was expecting a flurry of "you shouldn't be doing that on public roads" comment. Shockingly not a single 1 haha.

Obviously this is Mexico (even if Google says it's 10148 km from where I am now). How about this then ;)

This think is a monster. I NEED an engine bay shot lol.

A work in progress shot:

[Whitee]

How much custom fab is needed to make this swap possible?


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[one_sk]

How much custom fab is needed to make this swap possible?

Depends on your goals. You can get away with 99% OEM parts, but if your goals are as high as mine (beyond 1000 hp) you would spend extra effort to prepare the motor for increased abuse.

Mechanically it's not hard, the real twist is ECU & TCU tunes and some immo wizardry.

[Fresh.S4]

i couldnt afford a e90 m3

i couldnt afford a isf

i COULD afford an s4 with ease...

wonder how expensive it is to drop a v8tt in to get my 4door v8 dad car of my dreams lol!

[one_sk]

wonder how expensive it is to drop a v8tt in to get my 4door v8 dad car of my dreams lol!

The single most expensive component is the engine, this would drive the cost. Largely depends on whether it is S or RS engine and the amount of supporting mods. Mine cost me around 15 grand.

[UkuRiSh]

Best swap ever

[Whitee]

The single most expensive component is the engine, this would drive the cost. Largely depends on whether it is S or RS engine and the amount of supporting mods. Mine cost me around 15 grand.

Yeah that’s the kicker. 15k is a big chunk of change for a motor. I guess it’s all relative though.


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[one_sk]

Yeah that’s the kicker. 15k is a big chunk of change for a motor. I guess it’s all relative though.

It's not motor only. Most of that (HPFPs, lines, inlets, FMICs) I would have spent if I were tuning bone stock RS6. Only it would be slower and more expensive.

[waxingmoon]

This is just an awesome build man! Read your blog(google translate) a few weeks ago about your old turbo setup that fate played “ the brown note” on lol and this swap/build after I saw a video of this car in the Facebook group. Pretty amazed at the solutions you were able to come up with regarding coding and getting Audi immo to play nice with this new powerplant. Look forward to reading about your progress and seeing you hit those 9’s next season. Keep pioneering my friend!

[Low Flyer]

Your car has me all in for a 4.0T swap! Great way to push the platform!!

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[Hofahome]

Why didn’t you use the zf8 transmission from the RS?


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[one_sk]

Look forward to reading about your progress and seeing you hit those 9’s next season. Keep pioneering my friend!

Thanks! Actually I'm pretty sure that on a prepped track this car would run nines already, if it hooked up for 1.59 60ft on a cold autumn road in a 55F ambient. Damn COVID-19...

Why didn’t you use the zf8 transmission from the RS?

Actually I could've used both, so this is a matter of personal preference. My arguments are:

1) DL501 gen2 are pretty well understood, both flash & eeprom are programmable in their entirety, there are map packs and documents in German describing every aspect of their operation. Starting the swap with no previous successful precedent, I wasn't fully aware what lies ahead and thus chose a more flexible option to avoid the possibility of getting stranded.
2) Immo coding knowledge is not ubiquitous, so swapping around boxes is not widespread. This makes newer gen2 boxes (which are actually pretty good) very cheap at breakers - I got my '16 S6 PXK gen2 with 12k miles on it for $1500. Many people actually spend more money on rebuilding their gen1s here. Having the knowledge to adapt any DL501 to any 4.0T, it's actually easier to me to source a new box from breakers than to replace the clutch.
3) There is widespread myth that DL501 is fragile, but with a proper TCU tune exploiting the full clamping force achievable with gen2 mechatronic I'm running 900+ lbft routinely with no slippage at all. And I haven't upgraded the clutch yet - I have Deka stage 3 one lying around, just haven't got a reason to drop a box and put it in yet.
4) Last but not least, I like the S-tronic experience a lot more - downshifts in particular. Shifts are faster, whether it's significant in reality is debatable but what's most amusing to me is that ZF8 in amax mode is a lot more jerkier than DL501 which just keeps rowing ahead. Lack of torque surges is actually a good thing when you are operating close to the limits of the drivetrain components.

[ALAN12186]

I'm seriously considering this now that manual is an option. How much of the front support did you have to cut out? looks like the whole thing from the pictures. Did you make a custom support to tie both sides together. Also looks like you cut out the entire false fire wall. Any other cutting or notching to make this fit?

[ALAN12186]

I'm seriously considering this now that manual is an option. How much of the front support did you have to cut out? looks like the whole thing from the pictures. Did you make a custom support to tie both sides together. Also looks like you cut out the entire false fire wall. Any other cutting or notching to make this fit?

[one_sk]

I'm seriously considering this now that manual is an option. How much of the front support did you have to cut out? looks like the whole thing from the pictures. Did you make a custom support to tie both sides together. Also looks like you cut out the entire false fire wall. Any other cutting or notching to make this fit?

You double posted :)

The false firewall is not here from the times my car was 3.0 single turbo - PTE6466 resided right here. I can actually return it, but have no reason to, because 1000+ whp turbos I'm installing soon will go right there.

Similarly the front end is not cut out really - I've made custom radiator and air-to-air FMIC with 3'' piping, and RS6 C7 doing the same mod have to resort to same compromises. You actually can keep the OEM cooling radiator if you stay with air-to-water IC, but it's known for its lackluster performance, though arguably would be enough if 600whp is your end goal.

I'll repeat, most challenges here are electrical, not mechanical. B8 platform does have RS5, which is the block 4.0tt is based on. Most stuff just bolts on.

[ALAN12186]

THANKS FOR TAKING THE TIME TO ANSWER MY QUESTIONS

LOOKS LIKE IM GOING TO START LOOKING FOR AN ENGINE

MANUAL V8TT

[Dorny1]

Now I'm hoping my friend get his S6 rear ended...Id so do this, i'd rather stick with the most "factory" install but Amazing work my dude.

[VinnysS4]

Holy shiiiiiit. Best swap ever. Now I want to put this engine in everything
Keep up the great content !
Which turbos are you going with to make 1000whp?


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[one_sk]

Holy shiiiiiit. Best swap ever. Now I want to put this engine in everything
Keep up the great content !
Which turbos are you going with to make 1000whp?

Thanks! I'm fitting a set of Garrett G25-660 0.92 A/R turbos:

[bakedziti]

Check out Brian Haenszel Quattro Coupe 4.0 swap. It's manual.

Very interested in learning more about this and it seems based on the FB tied to this QC, the guy is local to me; I have to find this car now.

[VinnysS4]

Thanks! I'm fitting a set of Garrett G25-660 0.92 A/R turbos:

Hell yeah brotha! I looked at those but I wasn’t sure what mods would be needed to fit them. Do they fit the exhaust housings? Or do they bolt up to the manifolds?


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[one_sk]

Very interested in learning more about this and it seems based on the FB tied to this QC, the guy is local to me; I have to find this car now.

Brian swap ended my hesitation with starting the project. I was afraid that coding & tuning for this is close to unsolvable, but the way Brian did this is very straightforward - he routed starter relay to QC ignition key, connected terminals 30 & 15 to their counterparts from the older car and that's pretty much all there is to it wiring wise. Immo is defeated, car is not connected to CAN at all so is not aware of the wheel speeds or transmission and thus thinks it's stationary - Brian just removed the rev limiter and this problem is gone, car goes 10.01 thinking it's revving in place.

But that's for a 90 car lacking ABS and auto trans. Integrating into a more recent chassis like B8 is a bit more involved, but the crucial bit of knowledge from Brian's swap was that MED17 is exceptionally flexible and thus can be customized to fit any application. In my swap, for example, it pretends being 3.0 TFSI CCBA on the CAN bus, and B8 modules talk happily to it :)

Hell yeah brotha! I looked at those but I wasn’t sure what mods would be needed to fit them. Do they fit the exhaust housings? Or do they bolt up to the manifolds?

Quite a lot of supporting mods are required actually - I'm fabbing custom single scroll externally wastegated exhaust manifolds as we speak, next are billet intake manifolds with eight additional port injectors. Along with a bigger LPFP, throttle body relocation and air-to-air revision this is quite a bit of work. That's why I decided to roll on stock turbos in 2020 - projects like this need to achieve some interim milestones to fuel the passion of their makers :) I didn't want this to become yet another garage queen.

[raudiace4]

Damn I'd love a 4.0TT in my S4...

[ICU2]

Impressive run & a bold move for this swap. If you care to share, in addition to the cost of the motor, what would someone else be looking @ to complete this swap? Good luck & continued success w/this endeavor!

[fastboatster]

I think what most people don’t realize is that mechanicals were not the biggest part of the swap, although making custom mounts and exhaust manifolds is not a trivial thing either. The biggest part of this swap was all the reverse engineering which went into tweaking ecu and tcu firmware, although after op was able to find somebody to port the immo data for the ecu/tcu, not too many modifications were required. I’m not sure how much somebody will charge to make those modifications for you, granted, Eastern European tuners usually have very low prices.

[one_sk]

I think what most people don’t realize is that mechanicals were not the biggest part of the swap, although making custom mounts and exhaust manifolds is not a trivial thing either.

There are no custom mounts - my car runs 034 Street Density mounts I had since it was 3.0 supercharged. The subframe is RS4 B8, and only the left bracket is welded together out of 4.2 and 4.0 ones, but that was my OCD because I wanted the engine to be an inch lower.

I'll repeat that most custom fab that had to happen on this is related to my aspirations of 1000whp - for instance, the entire front end is custom to incorporate oversized air-to-air cooling, as the stock air-to-water one is hopeless even on stock turbos. With stock intakes and cooling no custom parts should be needed.

The biggest part of this swap was all the reverse engineering which went into tweaking ecu and tcu firmware, although after op was able to find somebody to port the immo data for the ecu/tcu, not too many modifications were required. I’m not sure how much somebody will charge to make those modifications for you, granted, Eastern European tuners usually have very low prices.

I'll split that in two - immo data coding and adapting the powertrain CAN protocols.

First is the lesser known operation but is actually optional if you are okay with "SAFE" glowing on your cluster - immo off patches are well known for Bosch ECUs. I was halfway through making one for the DL501 when I got a contact that can help me transfer immo data from my previous gen1 MNL box to gen2 S6 PXK transmission, but that's because I went full C7 drivetrain. If you stay with B8 trans this is not needed.

Immo coding guy is local to me but everything he does can be done over e-mail - just send him the fullreads of flash & eeprom of respective ECUs and he'll send the patched files back. This cost me 200 EUR for both ECUs so definitely not a robbery. The patches involve altering AES encrypted data so he is not afraid of IP theft.

For powertrain CAN adaptation I've spend a few nights studying CAN Hacker traces of 3.0 & 4.0 and found the locations to patch in both ECU and TCU using Ghidra reverse engineering toolkit. Ironically after finding it I understood that this was outlined in MED17 documentation (Funktionsrahmen) all along, but in a rather non-obvious place, so that the chances to stumble upon it before actually investing in RE effort were pretty much non-existent.

Impressive run & a bold move for this swap. If you care to share, in addition to the cost of the motor, what would someone else be looking @ to complete this swap? Good luck & continued success w/this endeavor!

I plan to do a few more for my friends (RS4 B8 and a B8 Allroad). This one took quite a few liters of coffee to achieve (having no precedent on the interwebs that I could learn from), but for next ones I estimate around 1 week DIY per each - it's motor in, motor out, harness splicing, putting bolt ons and flashing a few tunes. Maybe a bit of welding to adapt the exhaust. Actually much easier than an engine build or turbo kit fab in my book. I hope this vague descriptions gives you some idea :)

[fastboatster]

There are no custom mounts - my car runs 034 Street Density mounts I had since it was 3.0 supercharged. The subframe is RS4 B8, and only the left bracket is welded together out of 4.2 and 4.0 ones, but that was my OCD because I wanted the engine to be an inch lower.

I'll repeat that most custom fab that had to happen on this is related to my aspirations of 1000whp - for instance, the entire front end is custom to incorporate oversized air-to-air cooling, as the stock air-to-water one is hopeless even on stock turbos. With stock intakes and cooling no custom parts should be needed.



I'll split that in two - immo data coding and adapting the powertrain CAN protocols.

First is the lesser known operation but is actually optional if you are okay with "SAFE" glowing on your cluster - immo off patches are well known for Bosch ECUs. I was halfway through making one for the DL501 when I got a contact that can help me transfer immo data from my previous gen1 MNL box to gen2 S6 PXK transmission, but that's because I went full C7 drivetrain. If you stay with B8 trans this is not needed.

Immo coding guy is local to me but everything he does can be done over e-mail - just send him the fullreads of flash & eeprom of respective ECUs and he'll send the patched files back. This cost me 200 EUR for both ECUs so definitely not a robbery. The patches involve altering AES encrypted data so he is not afraid of IP theft.

For powertrain CAN adaptation I've spend a few nights studying CAN Hacker traces of 3.0 & 4.0 and found the locations to patch in both ECU and TCU using Ghidra reverse engineering toolkit. Ironically after finding it I understood that this was outlined in MED17 documentation (Funktionsrahmen) all along, but in a rather non-obvious place, so that the chances to stumble upon it before actually investing in RE effort were pretty much non-existent.



I plan to do a few more for my friends (RS4 B8 and a B8 Allroad). This one took quite a few liters of coffee to achieve (having no precedent on the interwebs that I could learn from), but for next ones I estimate around 1 week DIY per each - it's motor in, motor out, harness splicing, putting bolt ons and flashing a few tunes. Maybe a bit of welding to adapt the exhaust. Actually much easier than an engine build or turbo kit fab in my book. I hope this vague descriptions gives you some idea :)

I think you need to commercialize the software part and have a site where people could upload their ecu/tcu firmware to get it patched to adapt powertrain CAN communication. Potentially, it can route immo data files to your immo guy for patching. Plus you can start making custom cnc'd left engine mounts, it would be great if it could be made to work with s4/s5 subframe