Valeo SMFW Conversion Kit Troubleshooting/Questions

[Dr.B6Banter]

TLDR; Installed a Valeo SMFW conversion kit on my car over the weekend and everything seemed normal until I started the engine and it didn't initially go into gear. After playing with it for a bit it got better and it goes into gear mostly fine now (1st still has a slight pause before it falls into gear). It still grabs at the very bottom of the pedal though. Is this normal and just it breaking in? I would assume it would grab at the top considering it's an OEM style replacement.

So I got the SMFW conversion kit from Valeo for my car since the clutch was slipping under full boost and based on the way the car shuddered when slipping the clutch I figured the FW and PP surfaces were pretty badly glazed/ grooved.

I dropped the trans and installed it along with a new RMS, pilot bearing, and throwout bearing. The pedal felt lighter than what I was used to but I chalked this up to the fact that the clutch setup we took out of the car had the stock DMFW but an aftermarket friction disk and Sachs PP which likely had stiffer than stock springs. The trans went into all the gears fine while the engine was off however upon starting the engine and trying to go for a test drive, it didn't go into any of the gears initially.

The trans going into gear with the engine off but not with the engine on told me that the clutch was not disengaging enough and it was still grabbing even with my foot on the clutch. The weird part is it seemed to get "better" after playing with it for a bit and after a couple of minutes, it went it all gears mostly normally (1st gear still had a slight pause before falling into gear). It still grabbed right at the very bottom of the pedal throw though (the car would start moving once I lifted the pedal like 10mm) which struck me as odd for this being an organic OEM style clutch kit.

Is this just part of the break-in process or could something have broken causing the clutch to not disengage as much as it should? could the pivot that the clutch fork clips into break in a way that the pedal still operates normally but just doesn't push the PP as much as it normally would? I was not able to find the clutch fork or pivot on rock auto so I did not replace them, however they looked in good condition during a visual inspection when installing the new throw-out bearing. Maybe the stack height of the Valeo kit is not as tall as the previous setup?

Any help would be much appreciated! The car drives around fine right now and I don't think I'm damaging anything, but the events struck me as odd...

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[Gosser]

Pedal travel to the bottom barley disengaging the clutch sounds like air in the line. Did you disconnect the slave, and if so, did you bleed the slave? When I did my Valeo SMF, the engagement on the pedal is pretty high up.

[Flight930]

A new clutch will release closer to the floor and as it ages the release point will be higher up on the pedal.

There is no break in period for the clutch. Did you open up the hydraulic system when you removed the transmission? Can you put the clutch disc in backwards?

[Dr.B6Banter]

We just took the slave cylinder out of the trans rather than disconnecting the line since they're a pain to bled from past experience. Technically speaking, I disconnected the slave cylinder line when I did the 5 speed swap earlier this year and we bled the slave cylinder quite a bit, but there may have been the possibility that it still had a tiny bit of air in the line which was not enough to cause any noticeable difference on the old worn out clutch setup, but is an issue now?

The pedal feels light but not so light that I'd be worried. It wouldn't hurt bleeding it some more so I'll put that on my list. Do you guys typically move the coolant bottle and reach down with a wrench from the engine bay or do it from the bottom?

I figured the bite point would be lower when the clutch is new since it's a non-adjusting PP, but it's still odd that it's that low. We followed the markings on the friction disk on which side faces the trans but because of the shape, I don't think you could put it backwards...

[Deerhurst]

A new clutch will release closer to the floor and as it ages the release point will be higher up on the pedal.

There is no break in period for the clutch. Did you open up the hydraulic system when you removed the transmission? Can you put the clutch disc in backwards?

There is most definitely a break in period for a clutch. Keep it cool for the first 1000 miles or so. You, your pressure plate and flywheel will thank me.

If it has the SAC (self adjuster) it'll engage at the same spot was it wears.

I'd bleed that clutch. Should help a bunch.


2003 A4 Avant 3.0 6MT Quattro

[Flight930]

The break in that I’m referring to is that it should work out of the box. You shouldn’t have a hard time getting it into gear.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine

[Deerhurst]

The break in that I’m referring to is that it should work out of the box. You shouldn’t have a hard time getting it into gear.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine

True though it'll need a proper bleed, preload, etc.

2003 A4 Avant 3.0 6MT Quattro

[Cybersombosis]

For my slave cylinder replacement I did a reverse bleed. Super simple and it took about 5 minutes. No guessing and somewhat foolproof for getting air out of the system.

What I did was take an old style oil can and fill it with DOT4 brake fluid.



Get a length of clear PVC hose long enough so you can have the pump outside of the engine bay. Put one end of the hose on the pump and start the fluid flowing until it squirts out the other end. Avoid allowing air into the hose. Fill the pump with more fluid so you don’t run out then put the other end of the hose on the bleed screw.

Open your reservoir and pull out some of the fluid so you don’t overflow.

Crack open the bleed screw enough so that you can pump fluid back into the system and start pumping. Keep an eye on the reservoir as you pump to make sure fluid is flowing. If it isn’t, and you feel heavy resistance, then the bleed screw is not opened enough. Keep removing fluid from the reservoir. You may see bubbles percolating from the reservoir which is a good sign.

Here is a link to a video



Doug
​​​​​​​

[old guy]

I suspect the problem is as others noted, air in the system. When I installed my Valeo clutch kit the engagement point was slightly past center of the pedal travel. Clutch pedal pressure was initially very light but it did stiffen up a little after a short period of time. Clicky click®

[Dr.B6Banter]

I suspect the problem is as others noted, air in the system. When I installed my Valeo clutch kit the engagement point was slightly past center of the pedal travel. Clutch pedal pressure was initially very light but it did stiffen up a little after a short period of time. Clicky click®

Yes, while we didn't introduce any air into the system while doing this sawp, I had disconnected the line to the slave cylinder when doing my 5 speed swap and we did a traditional bleeding procedure of pumping the pedal and opening/ closing the bleeder and there is the possibility that not all the air was expelled. I did recall the clutch feeling a little lighter than before the conversion however I forgot about it after driving the car since it drove and shifted fine. The old clutch setup may have been worn enough that it didn't drag even though the slave cylinder was not fully extending.

For my slave cylinder replacement I did a reverse bleed. Super simple and it took about 5 minutes. No guessing and somewhat foolproof for getting air out of the system.

What I did was take an old style oil can and fill it with DOT4 brake fluid.



Get a length of clear PVC hose long enough so you can have the pump outside of the engine bay. Put one end of the hose on the pump and start the fluid flowing until it squirts out the other end. Avoid allowing air into the hose. Fill the pump with more fluid so you don’t run out then put the other end of the hose on the bleed screw.

Open your reservoir and pull out some of the fluid so you don’t overflow.

Crack open the bleed screw enough so that you can pump fluid back into the system and start pumping. Keep an eye on the reservoir as you pump to make sure fluid is flowing. If it isn’t, and you feel heavy resistance, then the bleed screw is not opened enough. Keep removing fluid from the reservoir. You may see bubbles percolating from the reservoir which is a good sign.

Here is a link to a video



Doug
​​​​​​​

That makes a lot of sense. I have heard of the term "reverse bleed" but never looked up what it entailed. I suppose with a long enough hose you could operate the handheld can outside the car and just feed the hose down the engine bay and onto the bleeder fitting.

It drives and shifts mostly fine right now and it's just that the low engagement makes it a little tough to get smoothly off the line so while I'm not drastically damaging anything driving around I suspect there is a bit of aditional wear from the clutch dragging and the synchros having to do additional work.

I will try doing that this weekend and update the thread with my findings. Thanks for the tips!

[Cybersombosis]

Ya I had the oil can above the engine bay by the engine cover. Just bought the appropriate tubing and can from Canadian Tire.

[Kevin C]

Personal experience is the normal bleed can be tricky especially if the front is up on ramps. The angle keeps the air pocket from being bled out. Mine bled just fine once I figured that out, reverse bleed would have been faster than jacking the back up higher than the front.

[Cybersombosis]

Ya with the horror stories I’d read about having to do the job with two people and pushing on the clutch and opening and closing the valve, I was worried about screwing it up like the posts I’d read. This allowed me to do it by myself and without having to worry about all the issues others were having. I’ve also used this method to bleed the hydraulic brakes on my son’s mountain bike and am sure it will work very nicely when I bleed my brakes.

[Deerhurst]

Personal experience is the normal bleed can be tricky especially if the front is up on ramps. The angle keeps the air pocket from being bled out. Mine bled just fine once I figured that out, reverse bleed would have been faster than jacking the back up higher than the front.

Lift the rear up. It bleeds better. I forget if that was a JHM or a Vast Performance tip. Worked awesome for me. 5 pumps of the pedal and it was perfect.

2003 A4 Avant 3.0 6MT Quattro

[Dr.B6Banter]

I'll try the reverse bleeding technique, and if that fails, I'll get a friend to help me bleed it with the car parked on the driveway which is sloped enough that the rear end of the car should be around 1ft higher than the front.

[MetalMan]

I forget if that was a JHM or a Vast Performance tip.

It was JHM.

Does anybody else use a power bleeder? I've got the Motive, and it makes really quick work of one-man slave bleeding. Also it doesn't require reverse bleeding which IMO isn't ideal considering it can allow particulates into what should be clean/fresh fluid.

[fR3ZNO]

I have the Motive too, works really well for slave bleeding.

[Kevin C]

Lift the rear up. It bleeds better. I forget if that was a JHM or a Vast Performance tip. Worked awesome for me. 5 pumps of the pedal and it was perfect.

2003 A4 Avant 3.0 6MT Quattro

If you raise the back it makes it so the air bubble moves and the bleeding goes a lot quicker. I used a vacuum bleeder , raised the back and and pushed the pedal while the bleeder was running to get mine bled.

This angle will cause a problem! When I did my six speed conversion I put the car up quite high to get the tranny and tranny jack to clear. It also made it pretty easy to work on.
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[Gosser]

It was JHM.

Does anybody else use a power bleeder? I've got the Motive, and it makes really quick work of one-man slave bleeding. Also it doesn't require reverse bleeding which IMO isn't ideal considering it can allow particulates into what should be clean/fresh fluid.

x3 on the motive bleeder. I can do it solo, without even jacking up the car if I'm real lazy. I have never had any issues with bleeding a slave, but I read about people struggling with it all the time.

[old guy]

x3 on the motive bleeder. I can do it solo, without even jacking up the car if I'm real lazy. I have never had any issues with bleeding a slave, but I read about people struggling with it all the time.

I also use a Motive bleeder. It works fine but I have to pump it up to close to 30psi to get the flow to start. A little scary...

[Gosser]

I also use a Motive bleeder. It works fine but I have to pump it up to close to 30psi to get the flow to start. A little scary...

Weird, I limit it to 10psi and works plenty for any of the hydraulics I've bleed. I've done countless brakes with it and only a couple slaves, but never exceeding 10psi.

[old guy]

Weird, I limit it to 10psi and works plenty for any of the hydraulics I've bleed. I've done countless brakes with it and only a couple slaves, but never exceeding 10psi.

Believe it or not the Bentley manual calls for 2.5 bar (36 psi) bleeding pressure for the clutch. I typically bleed the brakes with 15psi.

[Deerhurst]

The thing I hate about the clutch slave is the plastic nipple. Look at it wrong and it strips out.

Or maybe I'm just too used to wrenching on old stuff.

2003 A4 Avant 3.0 6MT Quattro

[Dr.B6Banter]

Yeah I'll have to be careful with the bleeder screw... That whole slave cylinder in general is a pain when doing trans related stuff since you're afraid to break it but it can get stuck in the trans making it hard to remove.

I just work in my apartment parking lot so I don't have the luxury of compressed air, but I think I should be able to get something to work between reverse bleeding it or parking on an incline and bleeding it normally. IIRC the bleeder screw is a 9mm?

Attached some photos of the old clutch... Surprised it just started slipping considered how bad it looks. It's had a slight shudder when getting off the line ever since I got the engine 3 years ago so I'm suspecting the previous owner just upgraded the clutch and PP and bolted everything back onto a worn DMFW. (Viewer discretion advised lol)

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[Dr.B6Banter]

Quick update.

Just got the supplies required to do a rever bleed, but didn't seem to have much luck. I had the bleeder open enough that it was dripping on its own, but upon putting the hose on and trying to pump fluid through it, I didn't notice the level in the res increase or bubble indicating to me that not much was happening. It seemed to use some fluid since the can was lighter but not sure where that fluid went as it was not in the reservoir or in my drain pan under the slave cylinder.

I resorted to the old school technique, but this time with the rear end of the car elevated about 1ft above the front. The first couple of cycles didn't expel any fluid even though I opened the bleeder quite a bit. The last few cycles did expel some fluid, but I had to use a 9mm socket since I didn't have a 9mm wrench so I couldn't see if any air came out with the fluid. The level in the brake res didn't drop much either so I'm at a bit of a loss. I did what I thought was the correct technique (pumping the pedal a bunch, holding it down, opening the bleeder, closing it, then releasing the pedal and repeating).

After all that the pedal felt a little stiffer but not as stiff as the old clutch setup. The previous setup had an aftermarket PP so I assume its springs are stiffer and that's what I'm used to. The bite point seems like it moved closer to the halfway point but it's hard to tell for sure. There is still a slight pause before it falls into first gear while not moving, which could just be normal but I'm not sure. Driving around feels normal in the sense that I'm able to upshift and more importantly downshift without the trans locking me out, so if it's still dragging at full clutch pedal engagement, it can't be by much.

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[Deerhurst]

My car with the OE RS4 clutch has some resistance into first sometimes. Drives me nuts. Not sure what it is. My factory setup didn't do that. Maybe I still have a slightly poor bleed and my bleed is actually usable unlike the one the shop "did". I didn't want to pull the tranny.

2003 A4 Avant 3.0 6MT Quattro

[Dr.B6Banter]

My car with the OE RS4 clutch has some resistance into first sometimes. Drives me nuts. Not sure what it is. My factory setup didn't do that. Maybe I still have a slightly poor bleed and my bleed is actually usable unlike the one the shop "did". I didn't want to pull the tranny.

2003 A4 Avant 3.0 6MT Quattro

Interesting... The fact that I can downshift fairly easily makes me think the clutch can't be dragging much if at all so It's probably fine.

Also I'm assuming pronounced engine vibrations under moderate load between 1k-2k is normal for a SMFW? I figured with the Valeo SMFW being 20+lb like the stock DMFW that it would dampen those out. It doesn't bother me at all, just trying to figure out if that's to be expected.

What's everyone's consensus on the clutch break-in procedure? everyone I've talked to has differing opinions, but it seems like some commonalities I'm noticing is to limit clutch slippage and be smooth with the shifts. In my mind, you should be doing that regardless of whether the clutch is fully broken in or not...

[Deerhurst]

Interesting... The fact that I can downshift fairly easily makes me think the clutch can't be dragging much if at all so It's probably fine.

Also I'm assuming pronounced engine vibrations under moderate load between 1k-2k is normal for a SMFW? I figured with the Valeo SMFW being 20+lb like the stock DMFW that it would dampen those out. It doesn't bother me at all, just trying to figure out if that's to be expected.

What's everyone's consensus on the clutch break-in procedure? everyone I've talked to has differing opinions, but it seems like some commonalities I'm noticing is to limit clutch slippage and be smooth with the shifts. In my mind, you should be doing that regardless of whether the clutch is fully broken in or not...

Mine is good in every other gear 100% of the time. Just occasionally unhappy with first, especially when cold.

More vibration/noise is normal with SMF. My car sounds like a spinning tin can of bolts at high load and 1200RPM but the vibration is still pretty minimal but more than DMF. My SMF is 16lbs too where the stock flywheel for the 3.0 is 29lbs.

The concensus with break in I've seen and done is as much shifting as possible for about 1000miles. Minimize heat, don't slip it if you can help it and be gentle. No high RPM shifts. No aggressive down shifts. Basically drive like a granny for a little while.

2003 A4 Avant 3.0 6MT Quattro

[Gosser]

Mine is good in every other gear 100% of the time. Just occasionally unhappy with first, especially when cold.

More vibration/noise is normal with SMF. My car sounds like a spinning tin can of bolts at high load and 1200RPM but the vibration is still pretty minimal but more than DMF. My SMF is 16lbs too where the stock flywheel for the 3.0 is 29lbs.

The concensus with break in I've seen and done is as much shifting as possible for about 1000miles. Minimize heat, don't slip it if you can help it and be gentle. No high RPM shifts. No aggressive down shifts. Basically drive like a granny for a little while.

X2 on the break in process. I have both the Valeo SMF and ECS RA4 Light Weight Fly Wheel, and the SMF is whisper quiet compared to the RA4 LWFW. The Valeo SMF can be in any rpm/load and it is barely noticeable. If your in the wrong gear with the RA4, it sounds like a diesel transport engine braking and feels like a DMF on the verge of exploding.

[Charles.waite]

I never had any issues with my Valeo setup. I bled the slave, but didn't do much else to it. *shrug*

[Dr.B6Banter]

X2 on the break in process. I have both the Valeo SMF and ECS RA4 Light Weight Fly Wheel, and the SMF is whisper quiet compared to the RA4 LWFW. The Valeo SMF can be in any rpm/load and it is barely noticeable. If your in the wrong gear with the RA4, it sounds like a diesel transport engine braking and feels like a DMF on the verge of exploding.

Yes I agree I have not heard a hint of gear chatter or anything of the sorts. I think the extra vibrations I can feel between 1k and 2k could be down to the solid b5 engine mounts I'm running too but it definitely feels like more than the DMFW.

I never had any issues with my Valeo setup. I bled the slave, but didn't do much else to it. *shrug*

We took the slave cylinder out of the trans during the clutch install so I should have had the forethought to lift the slave cylinder as high as it could go then use a C clamp on it to carry out the normal bleeding procedure. That way the bubbles naturally flow up and out of the slave cylinder. Too late for that now *shrug* lol.

I might just be too used to the high bite point of the DMFW and the low-middle bite point seems odd to me. There is about an inch of pedal travel before I feel any torque being transferred to the wheels so definitely enough travel to modulate the clutch for hill starts and whatnot... Just will take some getting used to.

[Charles.waite]

I think the pedal engagement moved more towards the middle with the Valeo. My stock clutch was pretty worn and the engagement had moved close to the top of the pedal, but it was so long ago my memory might be a bit fuzzy.