2003 audi allroad 2.7t project

[green2man0]

I'm starting on a project car. It's a 2003 Audi Allroad 2.7t. It has a blown motor (broken timing belt). It's got 166k on the odo and shows a decent service history and for it's age is very clean. I did a full detail to start and get familiar with the car. After that I started the tear down process to pull the engine. I pulled the front end off all the way down to the timing belt. I'll try and post pictures as a go. The service history I have say it had a timing belt service at 100k (about 8 years ago). Not that it matters at this point since the engine is gonna get replaced but I have my doubts the timing belt was done. It had a Gates T297 belt, audi tensioners, and audi pulley, a FPM idler, and what looked like a aftermarket waterpump (no audi markings). Is the belt O.E. for Audi?

[green2man0]

Attachment 201163Attachment 201164Attachment 201165Attachment 201166Attachment 201169Attachment 201170Attachment 201167Attachment 201168

[ShelbyM3]

I’m in a very similar boat. 175,000 miles. I’m not sure if the belt was changed previously, though. I’d sure hope so! Anyway, my old belt is an Audi/VW belt from Dayco Isoran. Hope this helps.
IMG_2623.jpg

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[mc_hotmail]

It has a blown motor (broken timing belt). ... the engine is gonna get replaced but I have my doubts the timing belt was done.

The word "done" is a bit confusing. Do you mean that you know the belt is broken but doubt it was purchased and/or installed correctly?

I replaced timing belts on 2 separate allroad 2.7T engines, and both replacement belts were not Audi branded. They work fine.

[glennda5id]

Do the idler, tensioner idler and waterpump spin freely?

Gates is not OE as far as I know.

[hibiscusS4]

I believe Conti belts were oem. However a lot of guys opt for gates belts. As long as it’s not the blue belt it’s fine as that squeaks like crazy


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[green2man0]

It just looked like most of the parts were still factory and maybe the belt and water pump were replaced. Not that it matters since it did break and now the motor is done. Also are there any other maintenance items I should check or replace with the engine swap? Right now I have a full timing set ordered (idler, tensioner, water pump, pulleys, belt), serpentine belt, valve cover gaskets, and filters/plugs. I'm planning on doing k04s and will have a replacement engine ordered by weeks end. I got the alternator and a/c compressor off last night and am planning to get the driveshaft and axles unbolted when I get done with work. I went with continental for all the replacement belts.

I couldn't find a obvious reason for the belt failure. The water pump was the only pulley that felt gritty (not terrible) and the pulley the tensioner pushes on had a bit of play in it.

[green2man0]

The word "done" is a bit confusing. Do you mean that you know the belt is broken but doubt it was purchased and/or installed correctly?

I replaced timing belts on 2 separate allroad 2.7T engines, and both replacement belts were not Audi branded. They work fine.

Yes the belt is broken and I doubt it was purchased/installed correctly.

[ShelbyM3]

“While you’re in there...” cam seals and timing chain tensioner gaskets are a good idea. You may wanna look at the secondary coolant pump and replace the o-rings in that system also. SAI may not be a bad system to investigate, also.


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[AudiAR01]

Just bc the timing belt broke doesn't mean the motor is shot. Pull the heads and have new valves put in. Check the piston tops to make sure there's no damage. Usually just valve damage. You can get 1mm bigger valves and a 5 angle valve job and put the heads back on. And vwalla...

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[green2man0]

UPDATE:
Hit my first roadblock. Made a little less progress than I wanted today. I drilled out the security bolts on the ecu case and pulled the wiring to the top of the engine. Then I started on the driveshaft....that's where I hit my first hurdle....5 of 6 bolts came out easy....then 1 stripped out....what should of been 30-40 min turned into 2-3 hours. I ended up welding an allen wrench into the stripped out hole breaking it loose then breaking off the allen wrench and detaching the driveshaft from the transmission. I also ordered some new connectors and the pin tool to repin them (MAF, 1 injector, and 1 fog light)(these are the ones I found that had broken release tabs) so those will be fixed as well. I was going to do axles but found that they are triple square bits not torx or hex...so I'm going to try and find a set of triple squares tomorrow locally and get those off.

[green2man0]

Just bc the timing belt broke doesn't mean the motor is shot. Pull the heads and have new valves put in. Check the piston tops to make sure there's no damage. Usually just valve damage. You can get 1mm bigger valves and a 5 angle valve job and put the heads back on. And vwalla...

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I debated that when I started this whole thing and found that it would be more work, time, and cost compared to getting a used longblock from a wrecker. I'm planning to open it up at some point just to see what happened to the insides and maybe keep the good bits as spares.

[AudiAR01]

I debated that when I started this whole thing and found that it would be more work, time, and cost compared to getting a used longblock from a wrecker. I'm planning to open it up at some point just to see what happened to the insides and maybe keep the good bits as spares.

I had 1mm bigger valves put in my 2.7 with me removing the heads. Dropped em off at the machine shop. Had em back in a week. Cost of valves and machine shop charge I had less than 570 bucks in it. But I understand the extra time constraint...

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[aussieallroad01]

“While you’re in there...” cam seals and timing chain tensioner gaskets are a good idea. You may wanna look at the secondary coolant pump and replace the o-rings in that system also. SAI may not be a bad system to investigate, also.


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And the thermostat + thermostat O ring, and housing if plastic.

[mc_hotmail]

... getting a used longblock from a wrecker.

You mean another 2.7T and a new K04 pair. Wouldn't that be more expensive than valve repairs?

Say your 2.7 arrived at your door, and you trust the junk yard salesman that it runs. Consider swapping the heads instead -- that would be the quickest of all solutions. Then you can work on repairing the bad heads and the K04 upgrades on the side while having a running car everyday. Btw, this route does not need to touch the ECU and wiring looms.

[green2man0]

That's assuming the only thing broken are the heads and no valve pieces broke off and ran through the turbos. I figure around $500-600 for redoing the heads vs $800-1000 for a used motor which I don't have to tear down. It's worth a couple hundred dollars to me to not have to tear the engine down and run parts to my machine shop.

I did order the thermostat and o ring...and did notice the plastic thermostat housing did have some crusty dried antifreeze so that will get changed as well.

The plan is to build this thing into a stage 2-3 build.

Edit: Now you guys have me debating rebuilding the heads...it looks like 300-400 for parts plus machine shop cost...either way the engine and trans are coming out. I'm going to pull the heads when I get the motor out...which should be soon. I think the only big stuff left to get there are undoing the exhaust, motor and trans mounts, and axle bolts (couldn't find any triple square bits local so I ordered a set from Portland so hopefully they get here fast)

Or it looks like you can get used cylinder heads for 100-200 complete each or a rebuilt set for 600-800

[timmyflash]

“While you’re in there...” cam seals and timing chain tensioner gaskets are a good idea. You may wanna look at the secondary coolant pump and replace the o-rings in that system also. SAI may not be a bad system to investigate, also.


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Definitely agree with this. I have a 2.7T and I replaced about everything I could when I was in there replacing a timing belt. It's the stupidest setup imaginable so just get everything you can get done while you are in there. I would recommend the cam seals, tensioners, valve cover gaskets, power steering pump, (change the thermostat housing to the metal one if there is a plastic one in there), thermostat, water pump, secondary (axillary) water pump, all timing belt pulleys, alternator and starter. Replace all hardware too. Everything was either dry rotted or fried from the brilliant engineering over there that allows for so much heat conduction with nowhere for it to escape. So many bolts heads were stripped (or became that way when trying to remove) due to the heat.

I love the way this car drives but man working on it (at the beginning) was a nightmare. Do everything you can do with that front end off. Also look to make sure all of the wiring is not crisped to the headlights and other places. Mine was all crispy. Not a "hater" on this car but coming from working on my WRX to this was a real learning experience. If you are replacing the entire engine then ignore what i am saying though.

[green2man0]

Attachment 201710
waiting on triple square bits to get the axles (should be here tomorrow), unbolt motor and trans mount bolts and exhaust sleeves and it should be ready to come out.

I also cleaned up the suspension and engine bay as best as I could (de-greased and washed alot of the grime off) and cleaned out the garage.

[green2man0]

also does anyone know what "modifications" are required for putting k04s specifically on a 2.7t allroad with automatic transmission? Every set I've looked at say they require modification for installation with my setup...I can't find any references or forum post about what that means.

[AudiAR01]

They make adapters to go to ko4s. Then you just need ko4s Downpipes and then a tune for ko4

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[green2man0]

Attachment 201974Attachment 201975
Finished the easy part (relatively speaking) engine and trans are out...overall it went pretty smoothly nothing broke...went slow and steady.
Now to start the hard part of breaking down the engine....I'm going to pull the heads and check the pistons and make the decision on either doing/rebuilding heads or ordering a new motor.
These cars are awesome but they're so complicated compared to my f150 or mustang or even old a4 projects.

I left the subframe as is but had to pull the drivers side upper suspension to clear the axle, the passenger side had no clearance issues.

[green2man0]

Attachment 202334
Passenger side cleaned
Attachment 202335
Driver side cleaned
Attachment 202336
Driver side right after head removal
Attachment 202337
Passenger side after head removal
Attachment 202338
Passenger side head
Attachment 202339
Driver side head

I think you guys were right...the short block looks usable...what do you think?
There are a few nicks in the pistons from valve contact but it seems like the pistons will be fine.

[AudiAR01]

I told you you could reuse the short block. Just have the valves redone. Yes they're interference motors. But if they aren't run really hard after the break or caught as soon as they break they don't cause that much damage. Usually only exhaust valves. But depending on where the cam is at during the break. And if you have any pieces sticking up on the piston tops like burrs. Take some 800+ grit sand paper and smooth them out. Any burrs sticking up will cause a hot spot for detonation. And eventually burn a spot there. So make sure the piston top is smooth. It will not hurt the piston to smooth any burrs out. I used 1000 grit sand paper. But don't use anything below 600 grit

2003 A6 2.7T 6spd Stage 1+
2001 Allroad TIP Stage 1
2006 A3 2.0T Stage 1

[green2man0]

So it looks like 3 sets of the exhaust valves and 1 (maybe 2) set of intake valves touched the pistons and bent. My plan is to order a set of replacement heads (used, cleaned, and decked) It'll be $400-450. The machine shop I use is a 1 man operation and he's backlogged about a month. I ordered a gasket/head bolt set yesterday and am waiting on a response of some questions I had on the replacement heads and will probably get them ordered today.

[AudiAR01]

So it looks like 3 sets of the exhaust valves and 1 (maybe 2) set of intake valves touched the pistons and bent. My plan is to order a set of replacement heads (used, cleaned, and decked) It'll be $400-450. The machine shop I use is a 1 man operation and he's backlogged about a month. I ordered a gasket/head bolt set yesterday and am waiting on a response of some questions I had on the replacement heads and will probably get them ordered today.

Why are you ordering new heads why not just have the pair you have cleaned hot tanked decked and valves put in it would be cheaper than buying new heads plus then having them cleaned act and checked out. you can get 2.8 heads for like a dime a dozen and I have larger exhaust ports or intake ports one of the two. They're cheaper than 2.7 heads

2003 A6 2.7T 6spd Stage 1+
2001 Allroad TIP Stage 1
2006 A3 2.0T Stage 1

[hibiscusS4]

Why are you ordering new heads why not just have the pair you have cleaned hot tanked decked and valves put it it would be cheaper than buying new heads plus then having them cleaned act and checked out

2003 A6 2.7T 6spd Stage 1+
2001 Allroad TIP Stage 1
2006 A3 2.0T Stage 1

I agree with the above. Rebuilding the head you already have to oe spec will be just fine.


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[green2man0]

Quoted prices so far have been 300-600 per head for rebuild with a 3-5 week turn around time(checked with 3 machine shops). Or $550 for a set of used heads off running engines (hot tanked, crack checked, and ready to install). I'm gonna order the used heads.

[green2man0]

UPDATE:
So I ordered the heads, they should be here around the 27-28th. Unfortunately I think I'm going to have to skip the k04s. From what I've found (specifically the 03-05 automatic allroads) it would involve more custom fabrication than I want to tackle. It looks like it will involve clearancing the driver's side exhaust manifold, making a custom downpipe and relocating the upper o2 sensors (03-05 allroads have a different turbo exhaust housing than other 2.7t's), installing rs4 turbo to throttle body piping, on top of all the supporting mods and tune. The stock k03s looked pretty good (no shaft play), so as of right now I'm gonna just go with a 3" downpipe and tune.

[hibiscusS4]

Quoted prices so far have been 300-600 per head for rebuild with a 3-5 week turn around time(checked with 3 machine shops). Or $550 for a set of used heads off running engines (hot tanked, crack checked, and ready to install). I'm gonna order the used heads.

Ya can’t blame you for that choice. Sounds like a good deal.


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[AudiAR01]

UPDATE:
So I ordered the heads, they should be here around the 27-28th. Unfortunately I think I'm going to have to skip the k04s. From what I've found (specifically the 03-05 automatic allroads) it would involve more custom fabrication than I want to tackle. It looks like it will involve clearancing the driver's side exhaust manifold, making a custom downpipe and relocating the upper o2 sensors (03-05 allroads have a different turbo exhaust housing than other 2.7t's), installing rs4 turbo to throttle body piping, on top of all the supporting mods and tune. The stock k03s looked pretty good (no shaft play), so as of right now I'm gonna just go with a 3" downpipe and tune.

Xs power makes 3" down pipes for the tip tranny. K04 are the same flange. Unless you have Bel. The xs power 3" DP have great fitment reviews. On tip cars. The turbos are basically the same as ko3s. You shouldn't have to modify anything. As long as you get the right DPs. I'm actually in the process of swapping to k04s right now. But on an A6 6spd.

03-05 you have round down pipe flange hole. You just need to get Bel flange down pipes. Instead of oval. The turbos bolt right up to your factory manifold. You don't have to make a custom DP or manifold. Where did you get that info. Bc I also have a tip AR that I am going to eventually K04 swap. I've already researched it. I haven't seen any of what you posted.

2003 A6 2.7T 6spd Stage 1+
2001 Allroad TIP Stage 1
2006 A3 2.0T Stage 1

[green2man0]

That's what I ordered...I got the xs power 3" DP (specifically for the 03-05 allroad) I looked like the flange and 02 sensor location were the main differences.
Their website says you'll have to make a slight dimple in the driver side pipe for clearance but looks like it will be the best option for bolt on DPs that I could find (actually the only option)....not thrilled about the $300 cost when all the others were around the $175 mark but they look to be a quality piece.


It is a BEL Motor

[green2man0]

UPDATE:
Got the heads yesterday...I installed new cam seals, tensioner seals, and the little half moon thing under the tensioners. I'm still waiting on a 2 jaw puller for the cam gears, and my timing holder/crank pin kit. So in the meantime I setup a cleaning station in my greenhouse and have started cleaning all the grease off the parts I've taken off so far (it's awesome to assemble stuff when it's clean).

[AudiAR01]

Good luck with the build. I'm in the middle of pulling motor n trans. Doing new clutch, lwfw, solid shifter linkage and bushings. As well as k04 swap with stage 1 CHRA's in the k04s. Also swapping out all components for stage 3. Injectors, pump, tune ect. ect. As well as doing full top end gaskets. Timing kit was done less than 5k mikes ago. So not gonna replace it. But upgrading spider hoses and that. If you still have the motor out. I'd check all the hoses vaccum and coolant. Especially coolant lines. And I would upgrade to silicone hoses for turbo to IC and whatnot. As well as boost pipes. And the several while your in there parts that are prone to failure and leaks.

2003 A6 2.7T 6spd Stage 1+
2001 Allroad TIP Stage 1
2006 A3 2.0T Stage 1

[green2man0]

Good luck with the build. I'm in the middle of pulling motor n trans. Doing new clutch, lwfw, solid shifter linkage and bushings. As well as k04 swap with stage 1 CHRA's in the k04s. Also swapping out all components for stage 3. Injectors, pump, tune ect. ect. As well as doing full top end gaskets. Timing kit was done less than 5k mikes ago. So not gonna replace it. But upgrading spider hoses and that. If you still have the motor out. I'd check all the hoses vaccum and coolant. Especially coolant lines. And I would upgrade to silicone hoses for turbo to IC and whatnot. As well as boost pipes. And the several while your in there parts that are prone to failure and leaks.

2003 A6 2.7T 6spd Stage 1+
2001 Allroad TIP Stage 1
2006 A3 2.0T Stage 1

Good luck to you as well...it's always more work than you hope for when you start pulling motors. So far most of the lines are looking pretty good...I did break the hard plastic line coming out of the driver side valve cover (it was super brittle) and connectors with broken tabs or cracks is the other thing I've been running across(it's super easy to repin them with the tool)(finding the right pigtails for some is a bit harder) and alot of new o rings as it gets reassembled (mostly coolant related). But as of right now other than a few tools and my downpipes(which should be here in the next day or 2) I have all the major parts...so cleaning stuff for the next couple of days and if tracking eta's can be trusted starting reassembly next week.

[AudiAR01]

Good luck to you as well...it's always more work than you hope for when you start pulling motors. So far most of the lines are looking pretty good...I did break the hard plastic line coming out of the driver side valve cover (it was super brittle) and connectors with broken tabs or cracks is the other thing I've been running across(it's super easy to repin them with the tool)(finding the right pigtails for some is a bit harder) and alot of new o rings as it gets reassembled (mostly coolant related). But as of right now other than a few tools and my downpipes(which should be here in the next day or 2) I have all the major parts...so cleaning stuff for the next couple of days and if tracking eta's can be trusted starting reassembly next week.

Yeah tracking with USPS, FedEx, and UPS is pretty unreliable unfortunately lol. What time are you going with?

2003 A6 2.7T 6spd Stage 1+ (motor pulled for stage 3+ upgrades)

2001 Allroad TIP Stage 1
2006 A3 2.0T 6spd Stage 1

[hibiscusS4]

Yeah tracking with USPS, FedEx, and UPS is pretty unreliable unfortunately lol. What time are you going with?

2003 A6 2.7T 6spd Stage 1+ (motor pulled for stage 3+ upgrades)

2001 Allroad TIP Stage 1
2006 A3 2.0T 6spd Stage 1

Tell me about it...... I have chras coming in to rebuild a set of ko4s and the usps guy didn’t even try to drop them off today. Just marked as failed drop off...

Excited to see more allroad builds come up though! Mine is close to running again.


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[AudiAR01]

Tell me about it...... I have chras coming in to rebuild a set of ko4s and the usps guy didn’t even try to drop them off today. Just marked as failed drop off...

Excited to see more allroad builds come up though! Mine is close to running again.


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I'm waiting on CHRA's as well. From across the pond from turbo rebuilders UK. I'm swapping to k04s. I ordered upgraded stage 1 CHRA's for them. Instead of running stock ones. But they're going in my A6 6spd. But I also have an Allroad that I'm building for the wife. I've already swapped out the air ride for coil conversion. But it's TIP. For now anyway. Gonna do 6spd swap on it. And put stage 1 CHRA's in the k03s on it with a stage 2 tune for her. May eventually go k04s on it down the road. Or maybe even frankenturbos. Or maybe try project b5 big single turbo kit... Something different. But don't have too many options for turbos for the 2.7

2003 A6 2.7T 6spd Stage 1+ (motor pulled for stage 3+ upgrades)

2001 Allroad TIP Stage 1
2006 A3 2.0T 6spd Stage 1

[hibiscusS4]

I'm waiting on CHRA's as well. From across the pond from turbo rebuilders UK. I'm swapping to k04s. I ordered upgraded stage 1 CHRA's for them. Instead of running stock ones. But they're going in my A6 6spd. But I also have an Allroad that I'm building for the wife. I've already swapped out the air ride for coil conversion. But it's TIP. For now anyway. Gonna do 6spd swap on it. And put stage 1 CHRA's in the k03s on it with a stage 2 tune for her. May eventually go k04s on it down the road. Or maybe even frankenturbos. Or maybe try project b5 big single turbo kit... Something different. But don't have too many options for turbos for the 2.7

2003 A6 2.7T 6spd Stage 1+ (motor pulled for stage 3+ upgrades)

2001 Allroad TIP Stage 1
2006 A3 2.0T 6spd Stage 1

Nice!

I decided on a set of melett chras after how they’ve been doing in my s4. That’s really cool though a six speed a6 you don’t see to many of those around. The a6 and the allroad kind of a hard find in a standard.


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[AudiAR01]

Nice!

I decided on a set of melett chras after how they’ve been doing in my s4. That’s really cool though a six speed a6 you don’t see to many of those around. The a6 and the allroad kind of a hard find in a standard.


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Yeah I actually bought the A6 from a fellow AZ member on here.

2003 A6 2.7T 6spd Stage 1+ (motor pulled for stage 3+ upgrades)

2001 Allroad TIP Stage 1
2006 A3 2.0T 6spd Stage 1

[2.ohhh]

Yeah I actually bought the A6 from a fellow AZ member on here.

2003 A6 2.7T 6spd Stage 1+ (motor pulled for stage 3+ upgrades)

2001 Allroad TIP Stage 1
2006 A3 2.0T 6spd Stage 1

And glad to see that you are having fun with it!

And to the OP, keep it up, sounds like you are doing a nice job with research and wrenching!