Charge pipes - Are they worth it?

[Sv2k]

Just want to see what other think that have upgraded one or both of the charge pipes. There are several different products on the market around $300 mark for one or both pipes, but I’m not sure what to think of this upgrade. In theory it sounds like it should yield some performance improvements, but I’m not sure how much and if it’s worth the money and time. Also wonder if there are any side effects that are not so obvious, besides boost leaks and couplers popping off. Thanks!


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[MikTip]

Good info here...

https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...rge-Conversion

- - - Updated - - -

https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...#post104334753

[Spinnetti]

Its doubtful they do much if anything and even if they do its not like you could feel it. That said, we all suffer from upgrade-itis lol.

[Sv2k]

I don’t think mk6 examples apply to us since the design is different.

It’s odd to hear that most say there little to no improvement or other say it’d makes things worse.

You look at this and wonder how can it not help replacing this small irregular shaped pipe.




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[Jetta03]

Zero gains, and the extra volume of the larger intake tract can cause lag issues.


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[Spinnetti]

I don’t think mk6 examples apply to us since the design is different.

It’s odd to hear that most say there little to no improvement or other say it’d makes things worse.

You look at this and wonder how can it not help replacing this small irregular shaped pipe.




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Because you are equating volume with performance, where velocity is probably more important. There is an interplay of volume and velocity at different points in the system to maximize flow for the whole system (as in the case of exhaust). Its complex and you can't just look at volume.

[MikTip]

Because you are equating volume with performance, where velocity is probably more important. There is an interplay of volume and velocity at different points in the system to maximize flow for the whole system (as in the case of exhaust). Its complex and you can't just look at volume.

Well said

[MikTip]

Go stage 2 or 3 and more power...

[FlyboyS4]

I don’t think mk6 examples apply to us since the design is different.

It’s odd to hear that most say there little to no improvement or other say it’d makes things worse.

You look at this and wonder how can it not help replacing this small irregular shaped pipe.

Improvement in airflow is small, not something a driver would pick up on.

[o1turbo30v]

No, waste of time and money.

[Sv2k]

Improvement in airflow is small, not something a driver would pick up on.

The test and results that Jeff put on his blog are super useful. However, I do have a question that others may be able to answer. I think I know the answer, but I’m no expert in this stuff. So ....

He is testing air flow with 28” of H2O pressure. After digging around on the internet for a bit my understanding that this equates to about 1 psi. If so, the question is does the small amount of improvement of the aftermarket pipes increase with boost or remains the same? In his test he showed that aftermarket pipes have about 3-4% improvement in flow rate over stock. Is it the same 3-4% under boost or there is a cumulative effect?


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[Gberg888]

I cannot seem to find my review... maybe you can search better than I can by my user name and find my part review for the ECS charge pipe kit.

Anyways, the results are as follows:

1) You will NOT feel a difference.
2) If there is any benefit at all it will be from the hot side piping going from the turbo to the intercooler. The intercooler to throttle body pipe is not overly bent, does nto vary in size like the other side piping does, and its a much shorter in length.
3) The hot side piping is easy to install. The cold side piping is much harder to install.
4) The throttle pipe and intercooler pipes that are currently rubber in stock form are EXACTLY the same as whatever company's "silicone pipe" version and there is literally NO VALUE.
5) Neuspeed makes a good setup for the hot side that actually increases the size of the pipe coming off the turbo which is currently the larges bottleneck in the piping system.
6) I would not spend the money again nor the time installing it. Although its always good to get more acquainted with your motor!

[FlyboyS4]

The test and results that Jeff put on his blog are super useful. However, I do have a question that others may be able to answer. I think I know the answer, but I’m no expert in this stuff. So ....

He is testing air flow with 28” of H2O pressure. After digging around on the internet for a bit my understanding that this equates to about 1 psi. If so, the question is does the small amount of improvement of the aftermarket pipes increase with boost or remains the same? In his test he showed that aftermarket pipes have about 3-4% improvement in flow rate over stock. Is it the same 3-4% under boost or there is a cumulative effect?

Pressure losses vary linearly with air density. The percentage difference should stay roughly the same if air density was all that changed.

I cannot seem to find my review... maybe you can search better than I can by my user name and find my part review for the ECS charge pipe kit.

Anyways, the results are as follows:

1) You will NOT feel a difference.
2) If there is any benefit at all it will be from the hot side piping going from the turbo to the intercooler. The intercooler to throttle body pipe is not overly bent, does nto vary in size like the other side piping does, and its a much shorter in length.
3) The hot side piping is easy to install. The cold side piping is much harder to install.
4) The throttle pipe and intercooler pipes that are currently rubber in stock form are EXACTLY the same as whatever company's "silicone pipe" version and there is literally NO VALUE.
5) Neuspeed makes a good setup for the hot side that actually increases the size of the pipe coming off the turbo which is currently the larges bottleneck in the piping system.
6) I would not spend the money again nor the time installing it. Although its always good to get more acquainted with your motor!

2. Cold side test.
5. TMD Test

[Sv2k]

I cannot seem to find my review... maybe you can search better than I can by my user name and find my part review for the ECS charge pipe kit.

Anyways, the results are as follows:

1) You will NOT feel a difference.
2) If there is any benefit at all it will be from the hot side piping going from the turbo to the intercooler. The intercooler to throttle body pipe is not overly bent, does nto vary in size like the other side piping does, and its a much shorter in length.
3) The hot side piping is easy to install. The cold side piping is much harder to install.
4) The throttle pipe and intercooler pipes that are currently rubber in stock form are EXACTLY the same as whatever company's "silicone pipe" version and there is literally NO VALUE.
5) Neuspeed makes a good setup for the hot side that actually increases the size of the pipe coming off the turbo which is currently the larges bottleneck in the piping system.
6) I would not spend the money again nor the time installing it. Although its always good to get more acquainted with your motor!

Thanks for the feedback!

I think the silicone replacement hoses supposedly are more durable and can withstand higher pressure better. Not sure how much truth there is to it. I haven’t seen too many people complaining about ruptured OE hoses.


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[Sv2k]

Pressure losses vary linearly with air density. The percentage difference should stay roughly the same if air density was all that changed.

Thanks for clearing this up!


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[JCBnice]

Pressure losses vary linearly with air density. The percentage difference should stay roughly the same if air density was all that changed.



2. Cold side test.
5. TMD Test

Thank you for the ACTUAL info!! So nice that there are ppl who do the work instead of just saying this works, this doesnt with no research behind it!

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[Spinnetti]

Thank you for the ACTUAL info!! So nice that there are ppl who do the work instead of just saying this works, this doesnt with no research behind it!

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As great as that info is (and it is), it doesn't actually tell you anything material. Ok, it flows 3% better. Does it have any impact to the power curve? If yes, is that difference in a useful place? e.g. gutting the mid-range for more top end not usually a good tradeoff, and finally, is the difference on a HP/TQ/$ basis worth it? You can just take a pipe out and instantly get infinite flow but its a system and if not in context of the whole system it tells you nothing useful. Multiple back to back dyno runs with area under the curve plotted and analysed will at least give you decision worthy info. Really nothing else will and flow tests are the smoke show and snake oil of aftermarket parts. We are emotional creatures though, and spending a bunch of money for parts painted another color makes us feel faster and defend to the death whatever we threw our money at.

[FlyboyS4]

"As great as that info is (and it is), it doesn't actually tell you anything material." That conclusion is illogical.

"Ok, it flows 3% better." - Yes

"Does it have any impact to the power curve?" - Answering that question was not the purpose of the flow test. Maybe a potential candidate test for you to conduct?

"If yes..." - You are challenging your hypothesis, not the subject of the test. The majority of the remainder of your commentary continues to argue something that wasn't the purpose of the test so I'll skip responding to those points.

"Multiple back to back dyno runs with area under the curve plotted and analysed will at least give you decision worthy info. Really nothing else will and flow tests are the smoke show and snake oil of aftermarket parts." - Please elaborate on why dyno runs are the only source of decision worthy data.

Regarding flow testing being a "smoke show and snake oil" Can you provide some reasons for why you believe that?

[JCBnice]

As great as that info is (and it is), it doesn't actually tell you anything material. Ok, it flows 3% better. Does it have any impact to the power curve? If yes, is that difference in a useful place? e.g. gutting the mid-range for more top end not usually a good tradeoff, and finally, is the difference on a HP/TQ/$ basis worth it? You can just take a pipe out and instantly get infinite flow but its a system and if not in context of the whole system it tells you nothing useful. Multiple back to back dyno runs with area under the curve plotted and analysed will at least give you decision worthy info. Really nothing else will and flow tests are the smoke show and snake oil of aftermarket parts. We are emotional creatures though, and spending a bunch of money for parts painted another color makes us feel faster and defend to the death whatever we threw our money at.

Getting air in and out as fast as possible is the goal to increase efficiency of all parts. Just as an intercooler is there to cool the intake air, it also needs to flow better. Which those flow testing numbers have a purpose, show which do the best job at both duties, have been raved about. And i'll toss out the intake flow data that everyone likes to use. So it's not snake oil. I guess flow testing tb spacer would be snake oil, or pcv hosing. While i'll agree having more flow doesnt neccesarily mean more power, it could also mean better throttle response do to more less turbulent airflow. A dp flows much better than stock, would those tests be snake oil? While everyone wants to say they do absolutely nothing, where is the testing that proves that? Whether it be iat's, map readings, etc.....just cutting something off without testing, but neligating testing that has been done to useless, seems pretty single minded.

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[Sv2k]

Ok, it flows 3% better. Does it have any impact to the power curve? If yes, is that difference in a useful place?

That’s why I asked if the flow rate changes with pressure. Since the answer is no, it’s linear, you can expect 3% improvement in airflow across your rpm and boost range. ECS dyno sheet, for what it’s worth, corroborates this observation and you get consistent improvement across the band. They claim top 10 hp/tq gain which is about 3% for the tested golf R.

This a small improvement to feel which is what everyone says, but for some it may be worth the $. Perhaps, performance aside, some value can be had in durability of the parts and insurance from boost leaks.

For me personally, all of this feedback from everyone is very helpful. I was planning on swapping all of the charge pipes, but now I may just let it be or opt for the hot side only.


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