Conical air filter?

[AudiB720TS]

Anybody running a K&N or similar conical air filter on the MAF or on added piping and can share dimensions?

[canadianA4B7]

Yes used a few different k&N. These guys will be my next filter purchase
http://www.pipercross.net/info-first-visit

[EvolutionArmory]

Ask yourself why do you want to do this. What will it gain you?

Probably just a lot of hot air and a lot of dirt in your engine.

[MSq5]

Not certain, since I don’t have a 2.0T engine, but I think several owners of the B7 2.0T have reported measurable gains on the dyno or by time slips using a high flow drop in flat filter in the stock air box. K&N or aFe versions of the OEM filter do provide good filtration and flow better than stock.

I agree with the poster above (with highly modified 2.0T engine) that a conical filter is not likely to be of benefit unless it is either housed in an air box or isolated from engine heat behind a wall or baffle between it and the engine. If kept isolated from heat, conical filters, especially the dual cone (or sometimes called inverted cone) filters have much greater pleated surface area and provide much higher flow rate and less pressure drop. If the engine is tuned or has modified intake or exhaust systems (higher flow intake manifold, larger turbo, bigger intercooler) or better flowing exhaust or both, the flow rate of the stock filter becomes the weak link.

Just throwing a conical filter on the intake unprotected from engine heat on a stock engine may actually cause a loss of power because of exposing it to hot engine air.

[EvolutionArmory]

The dude has something similar to a K04 style turbo.

Unless your turbo’s compressor inlet is capable of flowing more air than his stock air box and filter can flow, changing the filter or running a CAI won’t benefit airflow. All it does is make more noise and allow more dirt in the engine.

Say your turbo compressor housing can flow 10 units of air (very generic number and terminology) and your air filter housing and filter can flow 12 units of air. It can still flow the amount of air the turbo needs. Adding a filter that can flow 13 units or more won’t help you because the turbo inlet can only flow 10 units.

And then there’s pressure drop. ECS listed the pressure drop specifications of their CAI testing and found that the stock air box and filter has very LITTLE pressure drop. The biggest source of pressure drop is the stock accordion inlet pipe. Simply replacing the stock turbo inlet pipe with a metal or silicone one that costs 30 dollars will give you like 90% of any reduction in pressure drop a CAI does.


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[wsmc549]

I just replaced the accordion inlet with a ebay silicon one and a drop in Pipercross in the OEM airbox. Zero issues. I do have a CIA for sale that I am not using.

[AudiB720TS]

My play here is either to make my own version of the ECS intake or to try place the filter down by the fog light.

I already have a higher flowing panel filter in stock air box.

[Jeevan]

Ask yourself why do you want to do this. What will it gain you?

Probably just a lot of hot air and a lot of dirt in your engine.

He should be more worried about oil getting on the MAF and fucking it up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJKlb61_kXU

[EvolutionArmory]

My play here is either to make my own version of the ECS intake or to try place the filter down by the fog light.

I already have a higher flowing panel filter in stock air box.

And that’s probably not doing much better or any better than a stock filter. Adding a cone to your MAF is a step backwards.


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[hammond]

And that’s probably not doing much better or any better than a stock filter. Adding a cone to your MAF is a step backwards.


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People believe that Expensive CAI or ECS airfilters increase performance and they are willing to spend 300$ on it only to loose 1 or 2 HP. Kudos to Marketing team at ECS and CAI

[EvolutionArmory]

Performance air filters and CAI’s can absolutely add power but that is only for cars that have really restrictive intake systems from the factory. The stock airbox and filter on a 200 HP A4 isn’t one of them though. There’s plenty of people running 1.5-2 times stock horsepower while still using the stock air box.

Whether or not a “performance” air filter or CAI is a waste of money really depends on the car it’s going on.




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[MSq5]

He should be more worried about oil getting on the MAF and fucking it up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJKlb61_kXU

Half truths and falsehoods in that amateur video. He is right that filter design and fit really matter. A poorly fitting filter that allows unfiltered air into the engine will soon lead to death of the engine.

And an improperly oiled K&N or similar oiled cotton filter can cause oil to get on a MAF sensor and alter sensor readings. But, that is highly unlikely in most vehicles where the sensor is not close to the filter and virtually impossible if the filter is properly oiled. You’d almost have to try to get that to happen.

I’ve run a K&N filters on multiple vehicles for decades, all of which had MAF sensors and never once had a sensor malfunction. Ever. Probably over a million miles. Have one now on a ‘04 Nissan Armada I purchased new and installed as a part of a cold intake system in the first year of ownership. Cleaned and reoiled a couple times, close to 300,000 miles now. I clean and reoiled it properly. Same on several Volvos, Saabs and a Mazdaspeed3.

While not the same, the K04 on the Mazdaspeed3 was really held back by the stock airbox. Just substituting a cold air intake pulling from the fender well with a conical air filter (both K&N and aFe) produced a dyno proven, repeatable 15-18 whp gain, all else completely stock, and that intake supported aftermarket high boost tuning of the K04 with big 3” catless downpipe exhaust to 320 whp, about 375-380 crank hp, +100 over stock on pump gas. My car.

As to performance, it seems virtually impossible for a quality oiled gauze filter to cause a drop in horsepower. If power dropped, it was for some other reason. Maybe the MOPAR muscle car referenced in that video’s hearsay got heat soaked on the later dyno pull, or it was not a drop in or it was pulling in hot engine air. There is no way from the standpoint of basic fluid dynamics physics that a more open filter would produce a drop in power.

Having said that, aftermarket intakes can cause a loss in power, regardless of filter type, if they draw in hot engine air and the OEM airbox was a true cold air intake.

Whether an aftermarket filter in the stock airbox or an aftermarket true CAI will make more power does depend on the amount of pressure drop it adds, if any, to the system. In some applications the stock filter does out perform the flow of the throttle body and the needs of the forced induction system, so a higher flowing filter makes no more power.

I don’t know if there are gains to be made with filter changes on the 2.0T Audi engine in stock form with a K03. I understand the K03 can support about 250 g/s flow in its efficiency range before it turns into a flame thrower at high boost, high rpm. That requires tuning. Whether the stock intake becomes restrictive at that level remains to be seen.

I favor using either good quality drop in oiled gause lifetime filters or the similar washable dry flow equivalent ones over paper filters. They continue to outflow paper filters even especially when dirty and you only have to by them once.

For the A4 2.0T engine in stock form, a drop in K&N or aFe or similar in the stock airbox would make a lot of sense.

For what it is worth, I’m running an aFe oiled gauze filter in stock cold air intake airbox on my Q5 3.0TFSI. We don’t have a MAF sensor, but wouldn’t hesitate if it did. I have no concerns about oil getting onto the screws of my supercharger. Honestly that stock airbox and filter do flow better than the stock engine requires, so no gains from changing filters. But at Stage 2 tune and more aggressive pulleys turning the blower faster, higher flow intake does help.

There is just too much hysteria about oiled gauge filters to ignore the repeated false alarms.

[EvolutionArmory]

Yes, the oil and MAF situation gets really overblown and generally comes from people who think the filter should be soaking wet.

If oiled properly, it won’t be an issue. But, it still won’t really free up any power on a stock Audi intake system. The stock accordion style turbo inlet pipe is the only real restriction in an A4.


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[MSq5]

Yes, the oil and MAF situation gets really overblown and generally comes from people who think the filter should be soaking wet.

If oiled properly, it wonÂ’t be an issue. But, it still wonÂ’t really free up any power on a stock Audi intake system. The stock accordion style turbo inlet pipe is the only real restriction in an A4.


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Agree. At that power level the only intake performance benefit is to upgrade the turbo inlet pipe. In fact, the modest 5 hp gain an aftermarket intake system (ESC) showed with APR Stage 1 tune over the same tune with stock intake on the 2.0
T engine is largely, if not entirel, due to the smooth walled turbo inlet pipe in that kit. That’s a lot of money for 5 hp.

Oiled gauze or dry flow drop in filters do have the benefit of lifetime service and only need cleaning once per 100,000 miles, and they continue to out flow the engine’s need even when quite dirty in appearance.

FWIW, I found that the dry flow filters, while washable and long lasting, do eventually need replacing. They may last longer than most people own their cars, but are not true lifetime filters. They don’t seem to hold up as long as the oiled gauze versions.

Audi does an outstanding job in designing stock airboxes in its more recent generation cars. Usually a drop in filter of your choice and a smoother walled tube between the airbox and engine are all that is needed to optimize performance on all but the most highly modified engines. Open intakes just make more intake noise (induction sounds) for those who want that, and can rob power if not isolated from engine heat.

OP’s plan of attaching a conical filter directly to the stock turbo inlet pipe with no heat shield may well end up costing him some power, I’m afraid to say.

[AudiB720TS]

OPs plan of attaching a conical filter directly to the turbo inlet pipe with no heat shield may well end up costing him some power, I’m afraid to say.

This is not what I said I would do (read further down).
Anyways, I'm asking on the size of the filter (inlet), but at this point I'll just disconnect the MAF an measure it. No big deal.
Unfortunately this thread turned into the usual debate on filters.

[MSq5]

This is not what I said I would do (read further down).
Anyways, I'm asking on the size of the filter (inlet), but at this point I'll just disconnect the MAF an measure it. No big deal.
Unfortunately this thread turned into the usual debate on filters.

Sorry I misunderstood what you were going to place the filter on and where it will be located.

Nonetheless, the point we are all making is that a conical filter, regardless of whether paper, oiled gauze, or dry flow, and regardless of size, will not make more power for you on the stock engine, but is likely to cost you some unless it is isolated from engine heat.

Even if you develop your own version of the ECS kit and isolate the filter from engine heat, even down behind the foglight, as you later explain, the filter will not make more power. A good smooth walled TIP will get you the same hopping 5 hp as the full kit, and be far less expensive.

If you are going for appearance, just measure the outside diameter of the MAF housing, as you plan to do, find a silicone coupler that size, and run a longer pipe to a cool air location and add what ever filter you want. But, just know that the only meaningful restriction is the TIP on the other side of the MAF.

[EvolutionArmory]

This is not what I said I would do (read further down).
Anyways, I'm asking on the size of the filter (inlet), but at this point I'll just disconnect the MAF an measure it. No big deal.
Unfortunately this thread turned into the usual debate on filters.

Shoulda just done that to begin with. You’re not a noob.


But why do you just want to stick a cone filter on your MAF like the poors do? Or run it down to the fog light? All you’re doing is adding length and bends to the air flow path and are literally doing nothing except waste time and money. Your car is sick. Just let it be sick. (In a good way)

I’m trying to save you time and money brother. Intakes are for noobs who don’t know better.

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[Theiceman]

[Operator]

Anybody running a K&N or similar conical air filter on the MAF or on added piping and can share dimensions?

I ran this one.
Fujita 5 Super Flow Intake Filter (F5-300S)
Diameter : 3.00in
Size : 4.625in x 6.00in


Spectre
1003577v by DMK, on Flickr

Fujita
img1164qt by DMK, on Flickr

img1159kh by DMK, on Flickr

[MALMGRDC]

I ran this one.
Fujita 5 Super Flow Intake Filter (F5-300S)
Diameter : 3.00in
Size : 4.625in x 6.00in


Spectre
1003577v by DMK, on Flickr

Fujita
img1164qt by DMK, on Flickr

img1159kh by DMK, on Flickr

I like your filter set up operator!

[Charles.waite]

"B7 2.0T have reported measurable gains on the dyno or by time slips using a high flow drop in flat filter in the stock air box"

I don't think thats the case...

[oVeRdOsE]

hahaha, every month or so.

100% of people saying oiled filter are bad, read this shit on the net and never experience it. check !

Lost of power. check !

getting a 400$ carbon fiber box . check !


at the end;
- cone filter are cheap, easy to find, easy to install. The main reason should be the turbo sound and diverter sound.
- with a shield between the cone and turbo, the hot air is very minimal, thanks to bernouilli law, and the fender, skid and front air intake. the butt dyno won't fell the -1.3hp lost.

this kind of installation is more than enough. 90° 2.5'' alu pipe and 2 silicon coupling. 40$ and done.

[hammond]

hahaha, every month or so.

100% of people saying oiled filter are bad, read this shit on the net and never experience it. check !

Lost of power. check !

getting a 400$ carbon fiber box . check !


at the end;
- cone filter are cheap, easy to find, easy to install. The main reason should be the turbo sound and diverter sound.
- with a shield between the cone and turbo, the hot air is very minimal, thanks to bernouilli law, and the fender, skid and front air intake. the butt dyno won't fell the -1.3hp lost.

this kind of installation is more than enough. 90° 2.5'' alu pipe and 2 silicon coupling. 40$ and done.

There are some things in this world which you dont have to experience to know that they suck big time. Example, You dont have to eat shit to know its bad for your health. Oiled filters come into that category.

Also, Conical filters are not cheaper than Bosch oem filter if you know where to find. With that being said, Ram air filters which suck air from outside/under the fender will provide a huge gain and noise if you have a good turbo. There wont be any significant change on stock little motors of ours. If the turbo cant suck more air, whats the point adding fancy intakes and filters.

Any intake allegedly call themselfs CAI and located right next to CAT can go suck their balls. If you know physics, high temperature makes air carry less oxygen.

[EvolutionArmory]

Yup. Let’s stick an open air filter right next to a 600 degree c oven. What could go wrong?


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[MSq5]

There are some things in this world which you dont have to experience to know that they suck big time. Example, You dont have to eat shit to know its bad for your health. Oiled filters come into that category.

They do not. Your logic is horribly flawed. It’s not evidence. It’s just admittedly unsupported personal opinion demonstrating a preconceived bias.

You could make the same statement and then apply it to just about anything you don’t like as “proof” that the statement is true.

The long-standing successful use of oiled filters in just about every on road, off road, marine, racing, trucking and commercial engines for many decades is to the contrary. Like any other product, they must be used correctly. When they are, they are very safe and offer a number of advantages.

[Charles.waite]

Other than reusability, I don’t know what advantages they offer...

[MSq5]

Other than reusability, I donÂ’t know what advantages they offer...

1. Longer life, save money over time.

2. Less frequent service intervals.

3. Flows dramatically better when dirty. Oiled gauze filters often flow at a higher rate dirty, really caked on dirty, than a paper filter flows when new. This is more obvious in off road applications, or when vehicles are operated on dirt roads. My off-road, highly modified CJ5 Jeep a prime example.

4. In applications where the stock filter is restrictive or where the engine (which is an air pump) has increased flow demands because of other intake or exhaust demands. Often simply removing restrictions on the exhaust side, like larger catless downpipe or high flow aftermarket catted downpipes or more free flowing exhausts, increases demand on the intake side. The ECU may be capable of adapting to maintain target AFR by increasing injector duration to take advantage of extra air flow. This may require a tune to take advantage of the higher flow.

Having said this, on OPs engine, if stock, there is likely no benefit in power, limiting the benefit
to #1-3.

[EvolutionArmory]

Other than reusability, I don’t know what advantages they offer...

Then you have to offset the money saved on a few 20 dollar air filters to the unknown cost of letting more dirt into your motor. I’m not a scientist but to me it seems like you have to lose filtration to gain airflow and a filter that doesn’t filter as well and gains you zero airflow you can actually benefit from isn’t a good filter. It goes back to when I said if your turbo only needs 10 units of air to function right and your filter can flow 15. Technically it’s superior but not needed.


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[MSq5]

Then you have to offset the money saved on a few 20 dollar air filters to the unknown cost of letting more dirt into your motor. IÂ’m not a scientist but to me it seems like you have to lose filtration to gain airflow and a filter that doesnÂ’t filter as well and gains you zero airflow you can actually benefit from isnÂ’t a good filter. It goes back to when I said if your turbo only needs 10 units of air to function right and your filter can flow 15. Technically itÂ’s superior but not needed.

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Just to be clear about filtration. The same principle about 10 units of air needed to optimize power and a filter flowing 15 applies to filtration. You reach a point that “more filtration” does not translate to longer engine life. If it did my Blackstone oil analysis done regularly for years would show a difference when compared to their expected normal range, and engine life would be shorter. It hasn’t been in all the vehicles I’ve owned over the years. The 300,000 mile ‘04 Nissan Armada engine would have long since failed, the 140,000 mile Mazdaspeed 3, etc., the off-road CJ5 Jeep (1977 model) running K&N. I bought the Jeep in ‘87, installed an aftermarket Offenhauser intake manifold with Weber carb with that oiled gauze K&N filter, long tube headers, etc. It’s been run since then on mostly dirt roads and trails, through mud and other extreme conditions. The same straight six engine has never been touched internally.

Even so, flow rate is not just increased because of less restrictive filter material, it is also improved by increased surface area in most aftermarket filters with more pleats and larger outside diameter. The design often allows higher flow irrespective of filtration material.

Again, I agree that the stock paper filter flows better than a stock 2.0T engine requires, but I disagree with the premise that a more open filter causes engine damage. Once you reach a certain level in filtration, “more” filtration of finer Air-borne particles does not improve engine life. The particles that get through are too small to cause any increased engine wear.

[EvolutionArmory]

That’s a fair point on filtration. If the stock filter can filter out 110% of the dirt needed to keep the engine safe, a filter that offers more flow and still keeps out 100% of the dirt needed to keep the engine safe won’t hurt anything.

Makes sense and thanks. Oil analysis tells you a lot.


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[hammond]

kids time for bed and end of discussions, arguments

[oVeRdOsE]

have you asked yourself , on a normal engine lifetime, how particle can damage the engine?

Most people wont get 1M miles on those engine, no need for a gel HEPA filter with electronic monitoring...

Also tons of people with serious build won't run any filters, my buddy got a 30k$ is300 build and he never used a filter, so cleetus with his 1200hp + cars... So my spectre 20$ filter don't worries me.

up to op at the end.

[MSq5]

have you asked yourself , on a normal engine lifetime, how particle can damage the engine?

Most people wont get 1M miles on those engine, no need for a gel HEPA filter with electronic monitoring...

Also tons of people with serious build won't run any filters, my buddy got a 30k$ is300 build and he never used a filter, so cleetus with his 1200hp + cars... So my spectre 20$ filter don't worries me.

up to op at the end.

That’s going too far in the other direction. The pictured car is probably trailered to the track like race cars and the engine only started right before a run and shut off once back in the pits. I ran a highly modified small block 340 MOPAR engine that way. It only had a thin foam air filter, just to keep the big carb and velocity stack from sucking in things big enough to get between a closed intake valve and top of a piston. Such engines usually are tuned to the ragged edge and often self-destruct for other reasons during the course of one racing season. They may not even see 100 miles of actual running.

Poor example. A car driven regularly on the street, especially if driven daily needs adequate filtration.. A high flow filter from a reputable company with an established history of reliability, whether paper, dry flow, or oiled gauze will provide more than adequate filtration. aFe and K&N, along with many others would be in that group.

Spectre may not meet that criteria. It may be of Chinese manufacture, made in a shoddy plant and questionable materials and quality control. It certainly did not meet industry standards according to a federal court decision in 2011. I do not know whether it had since improved quality and changed its false advertising.

https://casetext.com/case/kn-engg-1

[EvolutionArmory]

That’s an interesting read. Basically proves what many of us have been saying for years. Intake makers lie their faces off and suckers eat it up. 🤣


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[MSq5]

That’s an interesting read. Basically proves what many of us have been saying for years. Intake makers lie their faces off and suckers eat it up. 🤣


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The facts of that case were that one intake maker, Spectre, was lying big time. The other maker, K&N didn’t lie. Rather, it offered credible evidence, applying solid science to validate its claims. It took Spectre to court, proved its case, exposing the lies. K&N was willing to risk the reputation of own products to expose the false claims of Spectre.

The judge and jury got it right.

[EvolutionArmory]

That’s going too far in the other direction. The pictured car is probably trailered to the track like race cars and the engine only started right before a run and shut off once back in the pits. I ran a highly modified small block 340 MOPAR engine that way. It only had a thin foam air filter, just to keep the big carb and velocity stack from sucking in things big enough to get between a closed intake valve and top of a piston. Such engines usually are tuned to the ragged edge and often self-destruct for other reasons during the course of one racing season. They may not even see 100 miles of actual running.

Poor example. A car driven regularly on the street, especially if driven daily needs adequate filtration.. A high flow filter from a reputable company with an established history of reliability, whether paper, dry flow, or oiled gauze will provide more than adequate filtration. aFe and K&N, along with many others would be in that group.

Spectre may not meet that criteria. It may be of Chinese manufacture, made in a shoddy plant and questionable materials and quality control. It certainly did not meet industry standards according to a federal court decision in 2011. I do not know whether it had since improved quality and changed its false advertising.

https://casetext.com/case/kn-engg-1

Yup. Can’t go from talking about 200 hp Audi’s to big turbo race cars.

A buddy of mine had a supercharged nitrous 68 Cuda that he sold to a guy. He told him this car is meant to be turned on, ran for 10 seconds, driven to the pit and shut off. Don’t drive it to the beach and idle in traffic. What do you think the first thing that guy did? Drove it to the beach to show it off, sat in traffic and blew the motor.

Yes, you can drive a car with no air filter. Doesn’t mean you should unless you’re OK with changing motors after a season or 2.


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[i3oricua]

I run the one below in the link. 70mm but that's based on the piping that I have and the couplers that I need to fit over the MAF sensor piping.

https://www.ramair-filters.co.uk/sho...cone-coupling/

I'll see if I can find a pic of what it looks like.

[AudiB720TS]

Here are the measurements that matters:

Section	Inner diameter
Turbo inlet	60 mm
MAF	67 mm

Based on the above, I am thinking I will add a aluminum 60 mm to 70 mm reducer and then a 70 mm pipe(s).
The MAF sensor bung welds into the 70 mm piping. Obviously its going to be more air volume than the MAF expects, but its not a huge difference.
I know for example the RAM Air intake for the S3 is 70 mm at the MAF section. I then add a 70mm filter, probably another BMC.

Obviously I don't want to spend too much on this without seeing it on a dyno, so I'm thinking I will start with a series of sections using silicon couplers, then if things work well (sounds good and adds horsepower) I will have the sections welded and add some kind of bracket. Thoughs?

[EvolutionArmory]

Thoughts but you won’t like them.

Don’t bother. All you need is a smooth walled aluminum pipe or silicone turbo inlet hose to gain 80-90% of the gains in airflow a CAI gives.

ECS didn’t do themselves any favors when the posted their pressure drop info on each section of their CAI. Of the total pressure drop combined from each component, the inlet pipe was the source of like 95% of the restriction and the box and filter combined made up the rest.

[EvolutionArmory]

An interesting read.
https://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...-intake-debate