The Amazon tire debacle.

[Spawne32]

I wanted to make a new thread for this given some new information that has come to light regarding this set of Nokian ZLINE A/S tires I purchased from Amazon. For those that don't know the back story from the other thread, I purchased a set of Nokian ZLINE A/S tires "New" from amazon in Feb. of 2019. The other day while working on my car I happen to be close enough to the tire to notice that the tires were splitting at the seams where the tread meets the sidewall in a very unusual manner. They also appeared to be dry rotting as well. The tires were dated 1417 which is the 14th week of 2017 for manufacturing. This is well within the 6 year recommended lifetime for any given tire, especially for warranty purposes. At first being concerned that my car being lowered played some impact in this, either the fender cutting into them or pothole damage, I began to inspect all 4 tires for damage, to my surprise, all 4 tires were showing the same separation at the sidewall/tread seam. I contacted Amazon regarding the issue as the tires were clearly defective, and since this was a public safety issue, I expressed my concerns given the fact that the tires have a 5 year warranty against defects. Afterall, Amazon advertises that they are an authorized dealer selling Nokian tires shipped and sold directly from Amazon Services LLC, they should not have an issue honoring the warranty. Customer service explained that they only allow returns or replacement for up to 30 days. Well that's bullshit, flat out. Any authorized dealer for tires can contact the mfg and replace tires under warranty, its the only way they can do that efficiently all over the globe.

At any rate, pissed off with customer service, I filed a complaint with the BBB, as history seemed to show that Amazon had a good reputation with resolving complaints regarding issues that customer service could not handle. So the complaint was submitted on the 7th, and the other day I got this response back...

Hello Robert,

I'm Eshwar Poulker from Amazon NA BBB Escalations Team. I'm writing in response to a complaint filed on your behalf by the Better Business Bureau BBB - I've provided the BBB with a copy of this message.

I'm sorry to hear your Nokian ZLINE A/S Performance Radial Tires didn't work out. Because more than 30 days have passed since you received this item, we can no longer accept a return.

Our returns procedures state that within 30 days of delivery of your order, you may return most merchandise in new condition, with the original packaging and accessories, or any defective merchandise, for a full refund. Eligible baby items purchased from or fulfilled by Amazon can be returned up to 90 days after delivery.

I'd recommend consulting your owner's manual and/or contacting the manufacturer to see if the problem in question is covered by the manufacturer's warranty. Most manufacturers list contact information on the product packaging.

If you can't find the information there, you might want to try doing a web search to find their phone number or website.

We hope to see you again soon.

Naturally, I got the same boiler plate response from them that customer service gave, that they will not honor the product beyond 30 days. Getting increasingly aggravated, I contacted Nokian directly. Surely this company that I hear so many good thing's about would be able to get to the bottom of this. I explained to them the issue and sent them pictures of the tires. Well.... today I got a response that I was NOT expecting.

Hi Robert,

We are sorry to hear about the issue that you experienced with your Zline tires. Amazon was unable to provide assistance as they are not an official retailer of our products. They source tires through third party wholesalers. By the letter of the limited warranty, this would disqualify the tires from warranty eligibility. Due to our commitment to safety however, I would like to help. Thank you for sending the picture, could you also send me a copy of your purchase invoice and address? I would like to facilitate a replacement at an official retailer to ensure that you receive the newest tires directly from our own warehouses.

Please let me know if you have any other questions or concerns,

Yes that's right, Amazon is NOT an official retailer for these tires! What does that mean? That means that there is no quality control on the product, no way to determine whether or not the product is counterfeit or re-manufactured, and most of all, no one checking to see if the tires are good to sell. This is BEYOND ridiculous now. Amazon's lack of product control is now at the point of being dangerous to the consumer. I cannot even imagine how many people are now rolling around on Amazon purchased tires that are possibly counterfeit or defective.

If you take anything from this, it should be, DO NOT BUY ANYTHING THAT CAN BE A SAFETY CONCERN FROM AMAZON. If you take a look at the pictures below, the danger posed by these tires could have for sure gotten someone killed. We all are very particular about our cars on here, and I know no one here would ever consider driving at a high rate of speed on tires this bad. I feel bad directing my anger out at Nokian for this because this likely is not representative of their products. It's more likely now that I was shafted by Amazon, along with many others, only to think that the brand of the product that I bought was responsible for the poor quality.

Where do I go from here? Not sure. I am still trying to get more information from Nokian regarding what they actually sold me and if there is a way to verify if they are a legitimate tire, via a serial number or some other markings. At the very least I would like to use this example to educate people to know what they are buying from Amazon before they use it. I think more often then not we are entranced by the fact that Amazon can ship an item and get it to you either the same day or the next day for next to nothing which makes us even more likely to purchase from them again and again with complete disregard to what we might be getting ourselves into. Amazon is no stranger to 3rd party sellers selling counterfeits, or counterfeits even making their way into their own inventory. Be careful what you buy!

[old guy]

You should be able to provide Nokian with the TIN (Tire Identification Number) and they should be able to determine when and where the tire was manufactured. Clicky click®

[Spawne32]

You should be able to provide Nokian with the TIN (Tire Identification Number) and they should be able to determine when and where the tire was manufactured. Clicky click®

Yeh that's what I assumed. I am waiting to hear back from them regarding this and to see if they can verify what I actually purchased.

[rcprato]

My money says you did not get counterfeit tires but got a set of defective tires and most likely by now Nokian knows they have defective tires that slipped through their quality control out in the market.

A few years ago I got a set of inexpensive Milestar tires through Amazon that were out of round, could not get them to balance and when put on a RoadForce balancer it showed the RF # which tells you that. Same thing here, Amazon couldn't do anything but contacting Milestar's office in CA got me replacement tires but not without buying new tires 1st and sending 2 tires from Amazon back to be evaluated and then a refund at a reduced price.

Makes sense to buy through an authorized retailer, especially when you need support.

[TheMysticWizard]

Bought a set of Atturo tires off Amazon, 20k miles/almost 2 years later, still happy with them. Great for the price, hell, great all around.

Unfortunate you had issues with them, but I'm surprised they wouldn't stand behind them considering they were sold by and shipped from Amazon.

Ultimately I would point the finger at the manufacturer though, this seems to be a defect at the factory level, hopefully you find resolution with them.

[Spawne32]

Bought a set of Atturo tires off Amazon, 20k miles/almost 2 years later, still happy with them. Great for the price, hell, great all around.

Unfortunate you had issues with them, but I'm surprised they wouldn't stand behind them considering they were sold by and shipped from Amazon.

Ultimately I would point the finger at the manufacturer though, this seems to be a defect at the factory level, hopefully you find resolution with them.

If the mfg cannot verify if they are even their tires, I cannot blame Nokian for this, as Amazon is not an authorized retailer of Nokian tires. This kind of puts some perspective to this because at the same time I bought these, a buddy of mine purchased 4 brand new tires of another brand, and the tires they sent him were over 12 years old. This probably explains why Amazon is selling these Nokian tires for much much less than what they retail for at any authorized retailer. The 3rd party they are acquiring them from is probably getting discarded defects, counterfeits, or remans and selling them at cost to Amazon.

[ducati]

Amazon can only go by the reputation of the third party seller.They do not stock everything in their warehouses but rely on their business partners.By their 30 day return policy they are right to refuse a return but should have directed you to the Nokian warranty department and see if the third party seller was a authourized seller of Nokians.Shipped by Amazon does not mean they are actual sellers.No way can they house so many items they sell.Has to be a manufacturing defect the DOT is still pretty new.

[Spawne32]

Amazon can only go by the reputation of the third party seller.They do not stock everything in their warehouses but rely on their business partners.By their 30 day return policy they are right to refuse a return but should have directed you to the Nokian warranty department and see if the third party seller was a authourized seller of Nokians.Shipped by Amazon does not mean they are actual sellers.No way can they house so many items they sell.Has to be a manufacturing defect the DOT is still pretty new.

This was not sold by a third party seller, thats my point. Did you read the original post? The warranty was automatically void because of the fact that amazon is not an authorized dealer of these tires. It's like buying tires off facebook and expecting the mfg to replace them.

[Rkymtnrider]

[QUOTE=Spawne32;14137636]

, I contacted Nokian directly. Surely this company that I hear so many good thing's about would be able to get to the bottom of this. I explained to them the issue and sent them pictures of the tires. Well.... today I got a response that I was NOT expecting.

[I]Hi Robert,

We are sorry to hear about the issue that you experienced with your Zline tires. Amazon was unable to provide assistance as they are not an official retailer of our products. They source tires through third party wholesalers. By the letter of the limited warranty, this would disqualify the tires from warranty eligibility. Due to our commitment to safety however, I would like to help. Thank you for sending the picture, could you also send me a copy of your purchase invoice and address? I would like to facilitate a replacement at an official retailer to ensure that you receive the newest tires directly from our own warehouses.

So, is Nokian going to replace you’re existing tires?

[Spawne32]

So, is Nokian going to replace you’re existing tires?

Still talking with them now, waiting for a response back after submitting all the paperwork. I already replaced the tires with Hankooks as I couldn't drive the car faster than 40mph without running the risk of getting a major blowout, and I am planning on taking Amazon to court for product liability and false advertising. Since Amazon expressly stated that they would be covered under the manufacturer warranty, and the manufacturer basically said no they are not because they are not authorized to sell them, I am confident I have them by the balls on this one.

[PedroA4]

Make sure you get screenshots of the expressed warranty. I didn’t see anything on amazon about the warranty.

[Spawne32]

Make sure you get screenshots of the expressed warranty. I didn’t see anything on amazon about the warranty.

They took it off the website. Just getting a 404 error page now.

[PedroA4]

https://web.archive.org

Try using that to see if they took a snapshot before removing it.

[Spawne32]

https://web.archive.org

Try using that to see if they took a snapshot before removing it.

Good call, but I don't see any archives of the page unfortunately.

[mtroxel]

Amazon can only go by the reputation of the third party seller.They do not stock everything in their warehouses but rely on their business partners.

In other words, they are a more powerful eBay. That's all Amazon is these days. Its a bunch of guys working out of their garage selling overstock and defective stuff through a common web site. These guys don't need to develop a reputation to build their business, so they don't care. I see the same thing going on with newegg.com. I've stopped buying tech stuff from them for the same exact reason.

[Theiceman]

does anyone else notice the distinct colour difference on both sides of the cracks ? or is is just a trick of the light ?

could these be retreads ?

Also would be good to get an opinion of a real tire expert, those tires look like tyres I see come off at the track with the shoulders of the tyres actually melted. ( not that it should make a difference though ) . Have these tyres been tracked ?

[Novarider]

does anyone else notice the distinct colour difference on both sides of the cracks ? or is is just a trick of the light ?

could these be retreads ?

Also would be good to get an opinion of a real tire expert, those tires look like tyres I see come off at the track with the shoulders of the tyres actually melted. ( not that it should make a difference though ) . Have these tyres been tracked ?

I see it too and my first thought was a retread. Especially since the crack/slice/whatever is down in the valleys of the tread too.

Spawne was this line on the inside of the tire as well?

[mtroxel]

I see it too and my first thought was a retread.

Same here. I hate to say it Spawnee, but you're going to end up taking a bath on this one. Might as well cut into one and show the original tread underneath.

[Theiceman]

may not be what he wants to hear, or even true , but we may as well discuss in here before he goes down the lawsuit rabbit hole.

[COar]

Same here. I hate to say it Spawnee, but you're going to end up taking a bath on this one. Might as well cut into one and show the original tread underneath.

I agree. Call it a lesson learned and move on (i.e. don't buy tires from Amazon). Unless he's an attorney himself and has an itch to scratch, it seems difficult to justify the legal fees and time.

And to play devil's advocate (and I'm by no means any type of legal expert), what damages could even be claimed here?

[Spawne32]

may not be what he wants to hear, or even true , but we may as well discuss in here before he goes down the lawsuit rabbit hole.

lol I'm a paralegal in case anyone was wondering. The likelihood of this rising to a full blown class action case is small. Unless Nokian can confirm that these are in fact counterfeit tires that are being sold by Amazon Services LLC, which is Amazon themselves, not a third party seller, this won't rise above the level of small claims court. I could likely force a settlement out of them in SCC because this does technically fall under tortious misrepresentation. The representation of the warranty being valid through the mfg when it is actually not is a violation of the Uniform Commercial Code for implied warranty of merchantability. They would likely settle out of court before a court date because the cost's associated with sending a rep cross country for a small sum of money is more than it is to just settle. All I have to do on my part is establish the fact that they grossly misrepresented the product, which I think is easy to do at this point. Still doing the case law research before I pursue it further.

You are right though there is a distinct discoloration between the tread and the sidewall. On the two front tires the separation is on both sides of the tread, however much worse on the outside than on the inside. Once I get to the bottom of thing's with Nokian, if they don't want the tires back I'll gladly cut one in half and see what's going on.

[mtroxel]

The Wall Street Journal has been dogging Amazon on this very issue with several articles, expired foods, etc. Since its hard to get through the WSJ pay wall, this article talks about it. I believe it was one of the WSJ articles a while ago, they pulled stuff out of the trash and put it up for sale on Amazon just to show how easy it is.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/23/amaz...-products.html

[jfo]

The fine cracks and deterioration in the rubber above the split is also unusual for a tire this age. The side walls look normal but the rest looks really old.

[Theiceman]

im really interested in seeing how this plays out.

[Spawne32]

The Wall Street Journal has been dogging Amazon on this very issue with several articles, expired foods, etc. Since its hard to get through the WSJ pay wall, this article talks about it. I believe it was one of the WSJ articles a while ago, they pulled stuff out of the trash and put it up for sale on Amazon just to show how easy it is.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/23/amaz...-products.html

This, 100%, and I wasn't really clued into the problem that was coming with Amazon until about 2 years ago when I purchased a new DV from them. I thought I was buying a Pierburg part, but what actually came in the mail was a part that looked identical, but the writing on the side was spelled PDierburg. They are so caught up now with banging out as many product sales as they can, they have zero time or care to verify whether the products they are selling are counterfeit, or even good for that matter. I know several people that work or have worked at the Amazon facilities near me, of which we have 3 locally with a few miles. It's like a nut house, you have to literally run back and forth. The working conditions are like slave labor, when the alarm sounds for a break the entire facility gets a 15-30 minute break to do EVERYTHING, eat, go to the bathroom etc. The lines can sometimes be so long for the bathroom that a lot of people won't even get a chance to take a piss.

This really was the straw that broke the camels back for me with them. The fact that these tires could have come apart on the highway doing 80mph because of wreckless disregard for quality control made me lose all confidence in buying from them. I saved about 50 bucks a tire initially on the purchase, and it cost me so much more and if they had failed while driving, could have cost me much more than that. This is the case I intend to make if it goes in front of a judge. The reckless disregard they have for what they sell for the sake of just getting sales really puts everyone at risk. Best advise I have for you guys is that when it comes to something that you need to rely on for safety purposes, buy from a retailer that you know for sure is selling you a legitimate product.

[19birel]

In the future, Tires-Easy is a great site to buy tyres from at a good price. I actually bought the same Nokian Z-Lines from there to put on my last car and they were great, also got a set of Z-Lines from there for my parent's old B8. As far as I can tell they're an authorized retailer and they also provide free road hazard protection etc. on just about everything they sell.

Sounds like Amazon has provided a terrible experience to say the least, but I have had great luck with those tyres having purchased them elsewhere. Glad you caught on to the defects though before something bad happened!

[Spawne32]

In the future, Tires-Easy is a great site to buy tyres from at a good price. I actually bought the same Nokian Z-Lines from there to put on my last car and they were great, also got a set of Z-Lines from there for my parent's old B8. As far as I can tell they're an authorized retailer and they also provide free road hazard protection etc. on just about everything they sell.

Sounds like Amazon has provided a terrible experience to say the least, but I have had great luck with those tyres having purchased them elsewhere. Glad you caught on to the defects though before something bad happened!

Yep, been using Tires-easy for several years now, just so happen that I thought I was getting a good deal through Amazon given the price. That's where I just bought the Hankook replacements, although now Hankook is giving me a problem with the $60 rebate and said an invoice through Tires-Easy is not valid. It never ends.

[mtroxel]

...now Hankook is giving me a problem with the $60 rebate and said an invoice through Tires-Easy is not valid. It never ends.

Interesting. I've used TireRack for years, but espcially now that they have a warehouse here in town. As long as I"m willing to drive 20 miles and fill my trunk and back seat with tires, I save the shipping. I've never asked if they are an authorized seller for all those brands, but that might become an important question given Spawne's story.

[Spawne32]

Interesting. I've used TireRack for years, but espcially now that they have a warehouse here in town. As long as I"m willing to drive 20 miles and fill my trunk and back seat with tires, I save the shipping. I've never asked if they are an authorized seller for all those brands, but that might become an important question given Spawne's story.

Well they are claiming that I need to have the tires installed at an authorized installer, and that's where the problem lies.

[mtroxel]

Well they are claiming that I need to have the tires installed at an authorized installer, and that's where the problem lies.

OK, that means they've got one of those guarantees that's hard to perfect. I see that a lot. The stipulations of many guarantees makes it highly unlikely you can ever collect.

[Spawne32]

OK, that means they've got one of those guarantees that's hard to perfect. I see that a lot. The stipulations of many guarantees makes it highly unlikely you can ever collect.

No mention of it though in their rules for the rebate.

[mtroxel]

No mention of it though in their rules for the rebate.

OK, those are rules for the rebate (another sales tool where the details are a bit cumbersome...to say the least). I thought you were talking about their guarantee?

[Spawne32]

OK, those are rules for the rebate (another sales tool where the details are a bit cumbersome...to say the least). I thought you were talking about their guarantee?

Two separate thing's. lol The Hankook rebate is merely for the tires I just bought to replace the Nokian's. Was just pointing out that the headaches are never ending this week. lol

[Spawne32]

So I heard back from Nokian today and they said its unlikely that these would be counterfeit tires despite the fact that Amazon was not an authorized dealer. Here's where it gets interesting, they said "That spot is where 2 different rubber compounds meet. which is a high stress area of the tire. Cracking here is troublesome, once it becomes deep enough to put the tip of a ball point pen into." I find that particularly interesting because it seems like they are fully aware of the splitting issue and are trying to explain it away. I have never had a set of tires split in this manner on a sidewall. I've seen tires that were 20 years old and dry rotting never come apart in a perfect seam around the sidewall like this.

They were going to have me go to a dealer directly for tire replacement, but given that their nearest local dealer is over 25 miles away, they are sending them directly to my house. So good news is Nokian was good in honoring the warranty despite Amazon screwing me in that regard because under normal circumstances it would not have been covered. However I still question a tire mfg that considers that kind of wear normal, so I don't plan on using them.

[mtroxel]

I'm impressed with Nokian. But you're right, they know they have a problem and no way is the split in your pictures "normal".

[Spawne32]

I'm impressed with Nokian. But you're right, they know they have a problem and no way is the split in your pictures "normal".

Can't even imagine what this could be caused by? Poor quality rubber? Faulty vulcanizing process? Either way, the end result is that I am probably going to drop pursuing Amazon over this given the result. Can't claim there is an issue if the manufacturer claims this is normal wear even though as a car enthusiast and mechanic for years my brain tells me otherwise. I'd have to convince a judge of that and that I suffered damages in some way and frankly I haven't now that they are willing to replace them and absorb the cost of installation. Either way, I hope this serves as a warning regarding purchasing through Amazon, because they likely are not authorized dealers for many other brands as well. Frankly there is no real way to know what you are getting, and when it comes to warranty claims, forget it.

[rcprato]

I'm impressed with Nokian. But you're right, they know they have a problem and no way is the split in your pictures "normal".

What I said in Post #4

[kneel]

Love these tires btw.

I’ve been running a set for close to 30k miles ( I drive a lot )
But a few weeks ago the tire separated from its self. Thank god I had the engine issue I’m have otherwise when fire let go on the cruise I was on would have been bad.
Tire treads separated from the rest of the tire and instantly went flat on me.


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[audiyadosir]

Get the new tires and have them installed when your new set is done, don’t send the old tires back rather hold them for your case, and then, by all means, sue Amazon. I believe it your obligation to hold them accountable and it is important. In letting them go it sets a precedent of apathy that is already rampant in the US. You’re not apathetic and I know that only from this forum. Why now?

I believe you have a good case and while I am not an attorney I know a company like Amazon will not let it go to a jury and I’m sure you could get a contingency agreement with an attorney. The payout may not be huge, but certainly worth it. The “they could have failed” is your biggest weakness, but still a good argument. Since they didn’t, there’s no way to confirm unless you let them fail...kinda like our Audi’s and the old school tensioners in the B8s. Audi knew the history of the 2009+ B8 A4 that had faulty tensioners installed all along, but even with a slight chain rattle, a cam phase adjustment of 6°, and a delay on my cold starts just enough to scare me each time I pushed my fob into the dash, when I took my car in for a timing chain maintenance and tensioner change within the warranty period they wanted $750 to take a look see saying it was for “other possible things that may be causing the problem while researching my complaint.” The service desk dude said “it may not be your tensioner and chains, it could be a motor mount and we need the $750 to fix that if that’s the case. I assured him it wasn’t a motor mount, the mounts and my complaint had nothing to do with each other and they weren’t even in the same system of the car!! In the end, Audi San Francisco wouldn’t take my car and preemptively change the tensioner and chains even with those three signs of impending failure and a CEL. We all know if I waited what would have happened, but they didn’t care. If Nokian knows the width/depth of the crack could be as large as a ball point pen and they’re replacing them with ease and outside of their normal warranty statement from an unauthorized retailer...they’ve got data you could subpoena and take to your Amazon trial. They know, for sure Nokian kmows, and maybe Amazon, too. Amazon sells some really suspect shit from 3rd parties and while it’s not a sure failure, the fact they sold it to you with the 6 year warranty and replacement option, then refused you, then the tires failed, they should be held liable for their malfeasance and for their vendor’s malfeasance.

IMHO, it’s not your choice wether to sue or not. Amazon made the choice for you, their merchant made their choice and now the only choice you have it to stand up for yourself and for maybe 1000s of others who’ve encountered the same issue even if it’s not a class, or 1000s may encounter with the same tires and issue. It’s possible many have been injured in a blowout, but they do not have the time to fight or don’t feel like fighting or just have apathy, as I read here. I’m not judging and I’m glad you BBB’d them. I agree with you 100%, having new tires available to you in your garage from Nokian as a backup set to put on after your current tires are worn, having the peace of mind you nor anyone else got hurt from your tires, and getting it all at no added cost is not a bad deal. I wouldn’t think about it if you were to take the offer and run. But, requiring Amazon to be a responsible vendor, holding them accountable for their acts as well as their merchandise and their advertising is priceless, even if you don’t win a big settlement in the end. You may set precedent for others.

There is no Law, they way I see it, unless someone breaks it and gets caught. It’s when they get caught and the victim stands for their rights and for the Law that there is Law. There is no Law if those who act in disregard are never held accountable. Eventually, if we don’t hold companies and individuals responsible for their illegal acts, there will be no Law I’m because the precedent will work to the Corp’s favor. I’m not suggesting you me Norma Rae, but being Trump by pardoning the lawbreakers isn’t right either. They’ll do it again and again and again if you don’t stop them, if we don’t stop them, if we don’t hold them accountable. You didn’t make the decision to sue them. They did....


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[Theiceman]

Glad it worked out for you. guess you can flip those tires or sell them to a member here if you are not going to use them.