RS5...WTF - Engine Failure

[ultimat777]

I got the RS5 late november/early December. Had like 105k when I got it. Previous owner had oil change, carbon clean, valve cover gaskets, coil packs, and spark plugs just before I got it. I was adding a quart every 1500-2000 miles when the indicator would come on telling me it was getting low. Had audi dealer do oil change at 109k, they said all looked good.
I drive the car 70-80 mile round trip back and forth to work everyday. Since all this mess I been working 7 days a week, car runs great, no problems. I been driving faster then normal with no traffic on the roads. But nothing crazy. I find myself doing 90-100 for up to 10 minutes straight(unusual for me) but I dont rev the motor all that often and def not often enough to be considered abuse.
So one day a little over a week ago I hit a pot hole at 77 mph and blew out front tire. I pull over and get flatbed home. The driver didnt want me in the cab with him, so he let me stay in my car on the flatbed. My car was still running and I noticed while being towed the CEL flashing, for the first time. 2 days later I get new tire and head off for work. When I get to work I notice its idling a little rough, but seems to go away over 10-20 mph. I get home, taking it easy. Going speed limit and trying not to beat on it. The cel will flash randomly but not stay on. EPC light will come on, but if I shut off car and restart it goes away, coming back later, maybe. Next morning I go to head out to work and it seems a little worse so I dont take the car. Now it seems to run rough even over 10 mph. I drive to audi and see what they say, I need an oil change anyways and tranny fluid changed. Day later they call me and say I need a new engine and its gonna be $28,000. They dont know what caused the issue, but cylinder wall in cylinder 3 are all scored. Low compression, sent a borescope in and found this
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7JqmbTTGjwQ
Wtf is all that.
How do I go from a perfectly running motor to this in no time out of no where. Obviously this is horrible news, the worst news I could possibly receive. I have no real time to figure out what's going on. I am working long days everyday and so overwhelmed as it is. I cant find much information about these motors. It's completely out of the question for me to get a new motor from audi, I didnt even pay that for the car. There is 115k on the clock now. Is it worth trying to hone out the block and rebuild that way? Get a new block and replace that? Get a complete replacement motor off ebay (seems to be the only place) for $9-11k with 30k-50k. And pay (quoted) $4,200-5,000 to have that put in? For a total of prob about $15k :(
I need some advice on what I should do. What route should i take? I'm worried that if it is a little more economical to try and rebuild, what if there is another issue in the head or below the piston? This can get more expensive quick and end up costing just as much as just doing a replacement motor. So fucked. Any help will be much appreciated. I'm in a bad spot here.

[Mrads]

That sucks! I don't have any advice but I hope you find a reasonable solution.

Good luck!!

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[Don Arco]

I think there’s more to the story here, quite possibly with the previous owner. Our engines don’t just fuck up out of thin air, especially something as severe as this. I’d definitely either rebuild the engine and upgrade internals or simply buy a crate engine on eBay, throw on some headers and call it a day. It would’ve been helpful to see some codes and could’ve provided us with more insight. Based on what you’re telling us, I’m not sure wth happened. 77mph in a pothole is pretty terrible, but I would think that’s limited solely to suspension damage in the impacted area.

[JamesRS5]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7JqmbTTGjwQ

Did they look at your valves as they went in through the head? Is there a view looking at the top of the piston?

That could be ring failure (not sure if that's a section of oil ring at the top of the cylinder) or some debris has got inside the cylinder during carbon cleaning and got gummed up in the rings causing failure.

Not sure if they plan just replacing the short block and swapping over all your ancillaries and heads, etc. That would be the cheapest option by a long run unless you go for an unknown engine from a breakers, it would also hopefully show what failed here or caused the failure.

[2by2handsofblue]

If a compression test was done, any potential issue could of been caught?

Maybe the previous road it pretty hard over the yrs of ownership

we are the borg! resistance is futile.

[ultimat777]

Ugh. Idk. Obviously you never really know what previous owner did. He seemed reputable, was a member here, but you never know. The $28k audi quoted was to remove engine and install new motor from them. They were very vague about what happened. And the girl on the phone really knew nothing about anything. She said i could not speak to the technician. Which is complete bullshit, especially under the circumstance.
I cant find much on a rebuild kit, or even aftermarket parts. I would like to do the headers, but that's a lot to spend on top of what I'm already gonna be out. I worked out a deal for a compete motor with 32k miles for $8,000 shipped. If I go this route, what else should I do while the engine is out? Should I have the motor carbon cleaned? Maybe put in a new water pump/oil pump? I was quoted by a speed shop 30-40 hours at $140/hr for the removal and install of new engine. I would like to try and find a little better deal if I could from a reputable source, but I'm willing to pay this if i have to, if best option. This is so crazy. I wouldnt mind rebuilding if it will save me big money obviously. Just not easy finding information on that route

[ultimat777]

From looking at the video, to me it looks like it was possibly a ring issue. Bit who knows. Why does it look like there is 2 grooves that go around the cylinder? I thought it would just be up and down damage. As far as I know, this is all the info they gave me. They did not tell me they inspected the valves/head. All they said was they would have to start ripping the motor apart to find out exactly what happened and if there was more damage in the head or below the piston. The girl told me they diagnosed the issue before doing anything else, and then later when telling me how much I owed, she told me they did the oil change because "it could have been an oil issue that caused the rough idle and code to pop up"
My scanner told me p0303 was the code. They didnt tell me anymore.
It really boggles my mind that this just happened out of nowhere like this. But if I'm gonna go ahead and get the car back on the road, I want to try and do what I have to do while everything is accessible. I feel like removing and replacing is a good route because I wont have to waste time pulling things apart only to find out there is potentially more damage. I will get a motor with much lower miles then I currently have. But on the other hand you never know what you're getting with a used engine. Then I could maybe salvage a little money by selling the motor either complete for someone who wants to fix it, or parting it out.

[Surfer8210]

I checked your profile and see that you’re on Long Island.
If that’s correct you’re in luck.
First of all please do yourself a favor and stay away from the dealers.
I can put you in touch with a shop that’s owned by three Audi Master Techs and they will point you in the right direction to go with this.
Between them, they probably have 100 years of experience so let me know and I’ll get the info to you.
I guarantee that you’ll end up happy and save money.


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[Neil F]

Unfortunately sometimes things do break and sometimes results are not good. My sons mini just lost a chunk of a piston for undetermined reasons. He is a mechanic and pulled the motor to have it rebuilt but corona happened and the shop has been closed.

[Neil F]

Flashing cel is a misfire and after the first one or two time you should not have driven it. It could have prevented some of the damage

[Hy Octane]

Every racing driver has had a perfectly good engine blow on them too. Not a believer in coincidences so there must be a connection between the 77mph whack to the wheel and the resulting motor grief. It may have shocked the engine at a critical time in its cycle and knocked it out of balance just long enough to cause this damage. Many possiblilties and you'll prolly never know.. But regardless, now you need to focus on a remedy. Perfect example though of why it pays to have an extended aftermarket warranty.. I had a 2003 A6 4.2 that had the valve assembly come apart at 7k miles. Replaced under warranty with a new RS6 since they had stopped production on the A6.. The RS6 amassed over $56k in warranty and extended warranty repairs in the 10 years I owned it..,. The most unreliable car ever. Sadly, it happens. I feel for ya tho..Good luck!

[hahnmgh63]

I've got a '13 RS5 with 99k that seized. I bore scoped the engine and cylinders all looked fine. It is sitting on a stand in my shop and I haven't had the time to pull it apart yet to see what the cause was, I'm thinking timing gear but who knows. There have been instances in the past on here of RS5 motors failing, those who took them to the dealer usually never find out as Audi keeps the old motors.
Hy Octane, I think I used to see you on RS6.com, so this is where you are nowadays. My RS6 is now a 6spd and believe it or not is one of the most reliable cars I've had minus the DRC issues early on. I've also got a '13 S5 with Stg2 that I love but I do like the sound of the RS5 motor. JHM is using the headers off my RS5 for to build an improved header so they'll be going back on my RS5 when they return them modified, and after I either fix the motor I have or find a low mileage motor (most likely).

[Yoda1]

I've got a '13 RS5 with 97k that just seized as I went out to start it. I bore scoped the engine and cylinders all looked fine. It is sitting on a stand in my shop and I haven't had the time to pull it apart yet to see what the cause was, I'm thinking timing gear but who knows. There have been instances in the past on here of RS5 motors failing, those who took them to the dealer usually never find out as Audi keeps the old motors.
Hy Octane, I think I used to see you on RS6.com, so this is where you are nowadays. My RS6 is now a 6spd and believe it or not is one of the most reliable cars I've had minus the DRC issues early on. I've also got a '13 S5 with Stg2 that I love but I do like the sound of the RS5 motor. JHM is using the headers off my RS5 for to build an improved header so they'll be going back on my RS5 when they return them modified, and after I either fix the motor I have or find a low mileage motor (most likely).

WTH, that’s crazy! Did it burn oil or have any potential warnings?
Can’t believe 2 high mileage rs5 with failed engines.

[BuyTheWarranty]

Brutal, sorry my friend.

Makes me a tad concerned... though, my mileage is 1/3 of both of those, still though.

Do you know if the injectors were replaced at the time of the carbon clean, it seems he did everything else? What was the mileage carbon clean was done?

[hahnmgh63]

Engine didn't burn much oil at all. Bore scope camera showed the cylinders to be in good condition although there were more carbon deposits overall on the left bank than on the right, nothing unusual though for a 97k motor. I've been away from home for 6 weeks and won't be home for another month. I really need to tear into it and get myself an answer. But at this point, since it is a 97k motor I still will look for a low mileage motor as I ended up buy a 25k transmission for a '15 RS5 that had a fire.

[Ape Factory]

This is very much a guess based on very limited information but I'm guessing an injector may have been failing causing cylinder washing (lack of lubricity) which led to scoring of the cylinder wall.

In terms of the CEL appearing after the pothole/tire blowout, maybe the CEL was there BEFORE and you didn't see it. Could be a coincidence. Unless there was tire shrapnel that took out part of your wiring harness, it's probably unlikely the two are related. But anything is possible and you won't really know until you tear it down.

I do know there's a specialty shop in Europe that rebuilds the CFSA from the ground up and if memory serves me correctly, the price is around around $7K. Not cheap but not out of line with used engine prices.

I would probably do an indy shop, as suggested, if you're not independently wealthy.

[JamesRS5]

That should have been very evident in the oil drained, if it was leaking enough to cause that damage you'd expect the oil to smell very strongly of fuel.
I've seen borewashed cylinders which tend to have an even wear or fine scores around the cylinder wall, this one looks to have a single area of reasonably deep scores. We didn't get chance to see the rest of the cylinder wall though, I'm guessing that's the worst area so the tech focused in on it.
Also the piston top may look much cleaner than the rest I f it were fuel washed.

[ultimat777]

Previous owner had the carbon clean and other stuff done just before selling it to me, it was part of the deal. 103k miles on the paperwork. The injectors were not replaced, but the seals were. It is quite a coincidence that I saw the check engine light after the pot hole, and even though it doesnt really make sense, technically, I feel as though its possible that the engine was in fact in just the right position that when i hit the pot hole something happened. A 1 in a million shot. I really dont know, but it is a big coincidence, maybe that's all it is, maybe it isnt. I did not see the check engine light before this, and I pay attention to these things. If 1 of the injectors was not working, wouldnt it have thrown some kind of code?
How much do the aftermarket warranties usually cost and last? Obviously wish I had it now, might be worth it to get after I get it back on the road. It covers problems with the motor? This would have been covered?

It looks like I'm gonna end up getting the 32k mile motor for $8k and now trying to figure out where I'm gonna get the work done

[ultimat777]

I was quoted $3,000 for the for the direct swap.
While everything is out and accessible I'm thinking to get other things done, possibly carbon clean, water pump, valve cover gaskets. I forget what else they told me, they are going to send me a list. I was told $4700, instead of $3,000 to do everything
I would like to do the headers to free up some power, but its gonna be too much on top of everything. I have the capristo exhaust now. Anything else I could do that wouldnt add more then a grand or so?
I know on my b6 s4 you could gut the precats to free up some power, does this apply to the rs5? I'm gonna try to look into it a little more, but cant find all that much info other then you really cant make more power out of NA V8 without forced induction. Contemplating doing the jhm tune

[JamesRS5]

I can't believe a pothole can cause cylinder wear when it didn't bend or break anything in the suspension. My money is on a lack of attention to detail during the carbon clean and debris getting inside the cylinder or the fuel injector was damaged during the reassembly.

[Don Arco]

I was quoted $3,000 for the for the direct swap.
While everything is out and accessible I'm thinking to get other things done, possibly carbon clean, water pump, valve cover gaskets. I forget what else they told me, they are going to send me a list. I was told $4700, instead of $3,000 to do everything
I would like to do the headers to free up some power, but its gonna be too much on top of everything. I have the capristo exhaust now. Anything else I could do that wouldnt add more then a grand or so?
I know on my b6 s4 you could gut the precats to free up some power, does this apply to the rs5? I'm gonna try to look into it a little more, but cant find all that much info other then you really cant make more power out of NA V8 without forced induction. Contemplating doing the jhm tune

Headers from JHM will be under $1K. :) Contact Jake@JHM ([email protected]).

[superswiss]

That sucks! This is not something anybody wants to find out about their car. I can't help but think that your relative high oil consumption was an early sign that something is not right with the engine. While Audi engines are known to burn oil, and Audi's official line is anything up to 1 quart per 1000 miles is normal, I actually haven't heard of an RS5 burning as much oil as yours did. Some owners reported that theirs is not burning any oil, but it seems most had to top up around 4000 miles, which seemed to be normal for this engine. Oil consumption is directly related to how the car is driven. So a lot of high rpm/red line hard driving would yield a higher oil consumption than a car driven by a grandma. A high revving engine like this needs plenty of lubrication. I used to do oil changes every 5k miles and usually had to top off just shortly before I changed the oil, and I drove the car hard. On average it probably saw a couple of red lines at least every day. The oil consumption was consistent like that from day one. It would be helpful to find out from the previous owner(s) if this particular engine always burned this much oil, or if it started to burn more oil at some point. I sold mine at around 77k miles, so not quite up there with yours, but the oil consumption remained the same since new. I did a carbon clean around 60k miles and the engine ran like new after that, but oil consumption still remained the same. As other have said, a flashing CEL means the engine is misfiring, so not a good idea to keep driving when it does that. I did have some issues with cold start misfires occasionally, but they went away if I immediately stopped the engine and started again. Never really found out what the issue was. It started around 36k miles, but it generally only happened on the winter fuel blend around here, so I figured the engine wasn't too happy with the fuel quality, even though I mostly filled it with Shell V-Power.

[Overbias]

I wonder if this is a rogue Ape grommet? Debris or part that was ‘lost’ during carbon cleaning, which requires upper and lower intake manifold removal. For a while it was lodged somewhere not doing any harm but became dislodged by the pothole and then did the damage.

Just a theory.


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[Yoda1]

Do you know if the shop that did the carbon clean was the same shop that did the scope and the diagnosis for a new engine? Their vagueness after telling you to spend $28k just doesn’t digest too well imo.

That’s excessively high oil consumption for these engines and more so that you do not often drive it hard. The highest I’ve read on these forum if memory serves me is 1/2 Qt In 2k mikes. I’d check with previous owner for oil consumption if possible. I imagine you probably sick about this whole situation by now but just hang in man. it just really sucks and I feel you. had similar experience as well with a cheaper car though. An A3. Could hardly focus at my work. Anyway.

Very very highly unlikely the bump in road had anything to do with the scouring and way more likely the bump on the road was a coincidence.

Flashing CEL is more than just a misfire. My old and first Audi always had The CEL on and the Audi mechanic told me, “only worry if it’s flashing and do not drive it at that point!”. Sure enough one day the car went into limp mode and the CEL flashed. Major Cam follower issue there and seen had to replace engine on the A3.

[Muckman83]

If this had happened straight after the bump
,it might of dislodged something in the intake. Maybe debris from when they did the carbon clean.
Also make sure all your intake bolt spacers are In placed. Whomever did the carbon clean might of dropped one in there without knowing. This would sit on the intake runner flap for ages without knowing until something would dislodge it.



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[Yoda1]

Yep there is that possibility that something was left hanging in there till that pothole dislodged it. And if that’s the case, any large shock could have done the same.
I’d definitely investigate what did the rupture in there after the engine is out.

[ultimat777]

The carbon clean was done by a reputable shop well known on this forum. The car was purchased from California and shipped to NY. Audi of Massapequa told me $28k. Once the engine is out and in my garage and I have some time, I'll prob tear it apart and see what I can find. For now I need it back on the road.
Do you think it pays to replace anything on the new used motor with 32k miles? I think the carbon clean I will definitely do. And probably main seals and well. But water pump, valve cover gaskets, should I just save my money, or put it toward something else, like headers. While it's out and easy, I def do want to take care of what I can before I spend on goodies and go from there if theres any money left

[Muckman83]

I’d probably change the clutch packs in the DSG while ya got gearbox there wit ya
Cheep replacement.
Also I’d do engine mounts for sure.
Just make sure your readiness ode is complete.


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[ultimat777]

Ahh..I didnt even think about that, will def look into it. Thanks. I just called jhm and they told me they dont have anything in production on the headers. I guess I misunderstood, because I thought they were doing something where they were modifying the stock headers, but no go on that for the rs5. They did recomend the lightweight flywheel

[Neil F]

I assume you have seen this https://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...rs-(GROUP-BUY)

These are seriously expensive https://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...hlight=headers

[ultimat777]

That group buy thread is what I saw. Which is why I'm confused as to why they are saying they dont have anything available.
Lol, not spending the same amount for the engine for headers

[ultimat777]

Haha, I saw the $7400 and ran away. I looked again, still not spending 3-4k. Might just settle for the tune and call it a day

[Yoda1]

Ahh..I didnt even think about that, will def look into it. Thanks. I just called jhm and they told me they dont have anything in production on the headers. I guess I misunderstood, because I thought they were doing something where they were modifying the stock headers, but no go on that for the rs5. They did recomend the lightweight flywheel

I remember Jake talking about this header option too. A lot cheaper That they modified the stock than making full headers. I’d talk to Jake. I thought it was in production as well.

[Yoda1]

The JHM De cored header comment is on the Lightweight flywheel thread. Post #11 Ish.

[hahnmgh63]

That Header group buy wasn't for JHM headers, JHM wasn't even working on their headers at that point but later. I think they are close if you call them and talk to Jake but they aren't listed on the website yet. Theirs will be much cheaper as I think they are just gonna give you the choice of a high flow cat with a better bend or go Catless with a better bend. They are going to still use the basic header design which is pretty good and will save money. The Cats and the funky big bend is what is slowing gases.

[Muckman83]

The carbon clean was done by a reputable shop well known on this forum. left

I hear this all the time but the sad truth is every shop has one thing in common, time is money.
No matter how good of a reputation a shop or mechanic has, they are all on the clock and have zero sympathy about your problems.
Iv seen the best mechanics that I considered as gods make mistakes costing them thousands.
Unless you have a mechanic that has his own personal quality control who looks over at everything they do, then your gonna get stung at some point. It’s a fact people make mistakes and no matter how much of a reputation they have it’s gonna happen.
Only way to eliminate this problem is just to do it your self.


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[2by2handsofblue]

I hear this all the time but the sad truth is every shop has one thing in common, time is money.
No matter how good of a reputation a shop or mechanic has, they are all on the clock and have zero sympathy about your problems.
Iv seen the best mechanics that I considered as gods make mistakes costing them thousands.
Unless you have a mechanic that has his own personal quality control who looks over at everything they do, then your gonna get stung at some point. It’s a fact people make mistakes and no matter how much of a reputation they have it’s gonna happen.
Only way to eliminate this problem is just to do it your self.


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R u saying by doing a bad job on the carbon cleaning could of caused this?
They left a chunk of walnut media shells inside the valves?

we are the borg! resistance is futile.

[Muckman83]

Walnut shell shouldn’t do damage to the plasma coating in the cylinder wall. If anything it would just leave some burn marks. You’d have to complete flood the cylinder with walnut to do any kind of damage.
I’d take the plenum off and see if there is any sign of scratching of something that had been in there.
One thing is did notice as well when I was putting mine back together was how eazy the lower intake manifold fits without folding back the tumble flaps.
Any mechanic that hadn’t read the workshop manual would easily make this mistake,not knowing it will restrict the movement and potentially snap ones activated. So I’d check that as well.


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[Waffles_s4]

No way the engine would have lasted 10,000 km or miles because of a bad walnut cleaning job.

Damage like this won't wait 5,000-10,000 miles to occur.

Only thing I can think of is hitting the pothole cracked the oil pan and let it run low on oil?

[ultimat777]

Unfortunately, you're absolutely right. Its damn near impossible to find true quality care. and I have always been a firm believer that if you want it done right you absolutely have to do it yourself. I hate bringing my cars anywhere to have anything done. But I'm not a mechanic and some things I just cant do, or dont feel confident doing. I do try to do as much as I can when I can, when I can find the time. I feel like I am never, or at least very rarely, fully satisfied with no issues when I have someone work on my car. This is not just the auto industry either. It's most trades. It's sad and its unfortunate. I brought the car to Audi hoping they would do the right thing and know best, being that it's their car. The female service woman I spoke to on the phone clearly had little knowledge and it was very clear in the things she said to me. This was upsetting, and even more so that she said I could not speak to the technician. When I told them to close it up and I wanted to pick it up while decided what to do she told me the total was going to be $370. Originally they told me it would be $169 to diagnose the issue. I asked why it was more and she told me they did the oil change. I questioned why, and I heard someone in the background saying they did that first because "it could have been an oil issue causing the problem " I was shocked and pissed. I felt like they were bs'ing me. I knew they were. I picked the car up from them today and they charged me the 169 twice, and it says customer declined oil and filter changed, no charge. Huh? Cant even trust Audi. wtf
The brand new motor they quoted me to put in would come with 12 month or 12,000 mile warranty, whichever comes first. I'm trying to figure out how to post pic of receipt.
It says ran GFF, found 11 faults in ECM, misfire faults, 02 sensor faults, lean faults. Removed spark plugs, found cylinder #3 spark plug oil fouled. Performed cylinder compression check. Test found for cylinder #3 (65 psi) out of spec. 225 is spec. Mechanical internal engine failure is evident.