EFR 7163 Big Turbo Custom Build! (Ex-APR Development car)

[energy_legs]

Hello everyone!

I'm not much of a contributor around here, but I've been lurking for years. I was an engineer at APR for a number of years where I got to have a great time with some of my favorite car people. I now work in California on unrelated aerospace stuff, but still rocking the B8!

During my time there I got opportunity to develop a stage 3 kit for the B8A4, you may remember the thread https://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...?highlight=APR. The details of the original kit are all in there, but after we decided not to release I used the opportunity and the development parts to turn it up more.

Here's a sweet 1/4 mile pass on the old development kit (approx. 365awhp) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9ui9H_Kn9o

The current setup:

-Borg Warner 7163 with the aluminum CHRA, T25 flange (APR inconel cast manifold)
-Runs E85, full fuel system upgrade
-GESI EPA compliant Catalyst - 800hp capable size
-All the APR bolt ons: Intake, Intercooler, quad tip exhaust
-All the suspension stuff from Eurocode
-S4 manual trans swap (better gearing, much better clutch choices)
-JHM 1R S4 clutch
-Full S4 interior swap
-A bunch of other bits

On the current setup with E85, the car puts down approx 450 awhp.

To be 100% clear this is a CUSTOM build, done with unreleased APR parts. The build and tuning was done by my friends at APR as a personal/custom project. No part of this build will be replicated by APR, that's not what they do. All the APR products they sell for the B8A4 are working great with this build!

I'm not very experienced with build posts, so hopefully some of you find this interesting. I'm happy to answer questions about the build!!


93613172_10103667950814220_8985231167036850176_n.jpg
93109684_10103667950998850_8695628866661646336_n.jpg
92844977_10103667950924000_6936311155849691136_n.jpg

[Spawne32]

why would that remain unreleased!!!

[energy_legs]

why would that remain unreleased!!!

Lots of reasons. The final build I did required all the upgrades, I for instance ended up with basically a full new drivetrain and fuel system. The final cost would reduce sales on a fairly aged platform. The support side would also be very challenging. The team didn't take the decision lightly and they ultimately decided to focus their efforts on other products.

I'm super happy with the final results I have, but there are still a number of very finicky things running e85 (non-flex) that a paying customer would not accept.

Let me know if you have any other questions!

To be clear I do not speak for the company or any of the employees that work there.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

[Nano909]

Curious, what exactly did you change to be able to run E85 on a B8?

[Spawne32]

Lots of reasons. The final build I did required all the upgrades, I for instance ended up with basically a full new drivetrain and fuel system. The final cost would reduce sales on a fairly aged platform. The support side would also be very challenging. The team didn't take the decision lightly and they ultimately decided to focus their efforts on other products.

I'm super happy with the final results I have, but there are still a number of very finicky things running e85 (non-flex) that a paying customer would not accept.

Let me know if you have any other questions!

To be clear I do not speak for the company or any of the employees that work there.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

Had the system ever been run on 93 octane? Full new drivetrain? Your saying this put out that much power that it needed to be upgraded?

[energy_legs]

Curious, what exactly did you change to be able to run E85 on a B8?

Low pressure pump upgrade, high pressure pump upgrade, DI injector upgrade, flex sensor (so I can know which map to run). I have 91, 93, e50, e85 tunes loaded.

[energy_legs]

Had the system ever been run on 93 octane? Full new drivetrain? Your saying this put out that much power that it needed to be upgraded?

Yes it runs very well on 93, but I dont have 93 in California only 91. I do have access to lots of E85 near where I live so I keep it on e85 most of the time.

Your stock shortblock will likely not survive, especially with all the problems with the CAEB and higher mileage engines out there. On E85 it's somewhere in the neighborhood of 450awhp. My stock CAEB with fixed rings, did not survive the original development, the rings eventually gave up. By the time the engine was replaced it was about a quart per tank of fuel, funny enough the car still ran great and pulled hard. Keep in mind I put 45,000 miles on the development kit before the rings gave up.

There are only a couple clutch options for B8A4 which can hold the power, but drivability is horrible. The S4 6MT has a ton of good clutch options so that's what I sent with.

[Nano909]

Low pressure pump upgrade, high pressure pump upgrade, DI injector upgrade, flex sensor (so I can know which map to run). I have 91, 93, e50, e85 tunes loaded.

Sent a pm

[Arin@APR]

Love this car!

[Chatchie]

S4 manual bolts up to the 2.0? I didn't know this.

[energy_legs]

S4 manual bolts up to the 2.0? I didn't know this.

The bell-housing does. You need to do some clutch work, I wasn't there when it was installed but the basic story was use the A4 clutch pedestal (crankshaft mount) bolted to the S4 pressure plate assembly; all of this aftermarket stuff of course. Then I think the A4 clutch pivot arm.

I will say for anyone interested, the S4 manual is a HUGE improvement on its own. The gearing is much better and wakes up the car on its own, the guys who installed it said it was such a noticeable difference it was similar feeling to stock to stage2/k04. Plus the S4 clutch options are SOOO much better.

[Chillaxin]

What year CAEB?

[Perry01]

The current setup:

-Borg Warner 7163 with the aluminum CHRA, T25 flange (APR inconel cast manifold)
-Runs E85, full fuel system upgrade
-GESI EPA compliant Catalyst - 800hp capable size
-All the APR bolt ons: Intake, Intercooler, quad tip exhaust
-All the suspension stuff from Eurocode
-S4 manual trans swap (better gearing, much better clutch choices)
-JHM 1R S4 clutch
-Full S4 interior swap
-A bunch of other bits

On the current setup with E85, the car puts down approx 450 awhp.

With stock rods and pistons?

Has it been back to the track?

[energy_legs]

What year CAEB?

Original engine was the 2010 CAEB. The replacement engine was out of a 2015 a5 which I believe is a CPMB engine code (could be wrong).

With stock rods and pistons?

Has it been back to the track?

I plead the fifth!

Hasn't been to the track or strip since I've finished it. Want to keep it one piece! I will say, it's very fast. Maybe I'll setup draggy and see if I can figure out how to launch it without hurting it.

These cars aren't good track cars, they're so heavy! I usually drive a champcar/lemons car to get my track fix :)

[whats77inaname]

Hasn't been to the track or strip since I've finished it. Want to keep it one piece! I will say, it's very fast. Maybe I'll setup draggy and see if I can figure out how to launch it without hurting it.

With the clutch setup you're running, I don't anticipate you'll have much of an issue with launch. Assuming it was dyno tuned, do you have a copy of the dyno you can post? What's peak boost? At what RPM does fuel cut-off occur?

[Mars2]

What DI injector are you running? Nostrum injector's? G7R Injector's?

[energy_legs]

With the clutch setup you're running, I don't anticipate you'll have much of an issue with launch. Assuming it was dyno tuned, do you have a copy of the dyno you can post? What's peak boost? At what RPM does fuel cut-off occur?

JHM 1R is I think what it's called. S4 clutch.. I'm sure it will hold, I just don't have a reason to smash on the car and I love it too much to hurt it :-P.

I don't have a copy of the dynograph available. It was tuned by one of the best on the Dyno and street like it was a production kit. It's something like 28psi peak, 7500rpm fuel cut.

There is definitely some later boost onset, feels like it hits around 3500-3700RPM but is super smooth (dual port boost solenoid) and the shorter s4 gearing feels great.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

[energy_legs]

What DI injector are you running? Nostrum injector's? G7R Injector's?

Tried the nostrums, those had enough flow, but had random misfires and wouldn't start up properly. We struggled to get a solution out of them and bailed. Have some other injector in there now, not sure what we settled on. For a quite awhile I had tossed around the idea of a custom him pressure rail and some s4 injectors, but the effort to drive them and properly characterize them on the electronics and calibration side was too much.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

[Mars2]

Look like good tuner can over come the 24 Psi throttle close down trouble!? I mean the one with access to any map.

[energy_legs]

Look like good tuner can over come the 24 Psi throttle close down trouble!? I mean the one with access to any map.

It helps to have a tuna with access to all the things! :-). There's more boost left in the turbo, but not much horsepower. I think we were reaching the end of the useful part of the map, and since I no longer work at APR, support is more of a one a done situation... So the mandate was to make it right not make it a track or Dyno killer :-).

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

[Mars2]

I would be really curious of what injector.
I have converted my VW T6 TSI ( EA888.2) to E85 with a OEM IHI hybrid turbo.
The only other one than Nostrum I can think would be G7R at 230-240 Bar. would need big plunger HPFP.
they can handle this kind of power with E85 on G7R with those sort of super high fuel pressure and very early injection start point.
But I have no access to Bosh DI injector data. So just result of questioning guy's on other platform forums

My tuner had also lot of trouble setting up some nostrum. took him 160 tune revision to get them right.

[lettuce]

This is really cool. Like an episode of VH1 Behind the Music. Always wondered what happened to the prototypes on these since this turbo kit seemed to have a lot of promise. Glad to see you're still out there enjoying it.

I have a question regarding the additional work you've done since the project was scrapped. You mentioned that the original kit was ~365whp and your current setup with E85 is ~450whp. How much of that additional ~85whp would you say is strictly from the addition of E85 and related tuning?

I ask this because I believe the common K04/F23-sized turbos on these cars are roughly in the low 300s for whp on 93, so I'd be interested to know if it'd be more feasible at that stage to do an E85 conversion vs a big turbo setup in terms of power gain per dollar/headache.

[19birel]

This is really cool. Like an episode of VH1 Behind the Music. Always wondered what happened to the prototypes on these since this turbo kit seemed to have a lot of promise. Glad to see you're still out there enjoying it.

I have a question regarding the additional work you've done since the project was scrapped. You mentioned that the original kit was ~365whp and your current setup with E85 is ~450whp. How much of that additional ~85whp would you say is strictly from the addition of E85 and related tuning?

I ask this because I believe the common K04/F23-sized turbos on these cars are roughly in the low 300s for whp on 93, so I'd be interested to know if it'd be more feasible at that stage to do an E85 conversion vs a big turbo setup in terms of power gain per dollar/headache.

According to APR's site, a B8.5 with a K04 gains ~30whp and ~40wtq from E85 vs 93, so I would guess that at best you would still be down 100+whp from his setup even with ethanol.

That said, I'd be very interested knowing the parts list/cost of the E85 conversion, that's still a reasonable amount of power on the table.

[energy_legs]

I would be really curious of what injector.
I have converted my VW T6 TSI ( EA888.2) to E85 with a OEM IHI hybrid turbo.
The only other one than Nostrum I can think would be G7R at 230-240 Bar. would need big plunger HPFP.
they can handle this kind of power with E85 on G7R with those sort of super high fuel pressure and very early injection start point.
But I have no access to Bosh DI injector data. So just result of questioning guy's on other platform forums

My tuner had also lot of trouble setting up some nostrum. took him 160 tune revision to get them right.

We did actually try to run a EA888 Gen3 HPFP to get the rail pressure up to see if that would fix the Nostrum problems. It was not simple to drive the 200bar gen 3 pump, it was going to take weeks of reverse engineering and code changes so we bailed.

I do have an upgraded HPFP with a larger plunger to get more flow, and an upgraded LPFP as well.

[Depthcharge]

Can you share which HPFP and LPFP you wound up with or is that APR secret vault stuff?

[energy_legs]

This is really cool. Like an episode of VH1 Behind the Music. Always wondered what happened to the prototypes on these since this turbo kit seemed to have a lot of promise. Glad to see you're still out there enjoying it.

I have a question regarding the additional work you've done since the project was scrapped. You mentioned that the original kit was ~365whp and your current setup with E85 is ~450whp. How much of that additional ~85whp would you say is strictly from the addition of E85 and related tuning?

I ask this because I believe the common K04/F23-sized turbos on these cars are roughly in the low 300s for whp on 93, so I'd be interested to know if it'd be more feasible at that stage to do an E85 conversion vs a big turbo setup in terms of power gain per dollar/headache.

I know there was a lot of interest in the kit, but there were a lot of good reasons why it didn't make it to market. That said I had a lot of fun getting design a kit for my own car with the resources of APR; I would have loved to release it!

Like 19birel said, there isn't a ton left just by going to E85, the K04 is already running flat out on 93. Can we take a second to recognize the borg engineers who designed the K04? That has to be one of the toughest turbo's I've ever seen, the only way to kill them is to run parts (FOD) through them or starve them of oil. Truly impressive.

My opinion is if you're going to go through the work to do an E85 conversion, you may as well go full custom big turbo. The vast majority of the challenge is tuning for the fuel system upgrades IMO.

According to APR's site, a B8.5 with a K04 gains ~30whp and ~40wtq from E85 vs 93, so I would guess that at best you would still be down 100+whp from his setup even with ethanol.

That said, I'd be very interested knowing the parts list/cost of the E85 conversion, that's still a reasonable amount of power on the table.

I'm not going to be a good source for parts list/cost for this conversion. Basic list off the top of my head is LPFP, PTFE in take fuel lines, LPFP controller (torqbyte?), HPFP, ethanol content sensor, injectors. Then a BOAT load of calibration time to get it all dialed in.

[Arin@APR]

Can you share which HPFP

We're able to rebuild the HPFP. I don't have it specifically listed on the website but it's the same rebuild internals as our older 2.5 TFSI fuel pump from the first TT RS.

LPFP - I don't specially remember, but I seem to recall we used a larger OEM pump and controller.

[Spawne32]

I know there was a lot of interest in the kit, but there were a lot of good reasons why it didn't make it to market. That said I had a lot of fun getting design a kit for my own car with the resources of APR; I would have loved to release it!

Like 19birel said, there isn't a ton left just by going to E85, the K04 is already running flat out on 93. Can we take a second to recognize the borg engineers who designed the K04? That has to be one of the toughest turbo's I've ever seen, the only way to kill them is to run parts (FOD) through them or starve them of oil. Truly impressive.

My opinion is if you're going to go through the work to do an E85 conversion, you may as well go full custom big turbo. The vast majority of the challenge is tuning for the fuel system upgrades IMO.




I'm not going to be a good source for parts list/cost for this conversion. Basic list off the top of my head is LPFP, PTFE in take fuel lines, LPFP controller (torqbyte?), HPFP, ethanol content sensor, injectors. Then a BOAT load of calibration time to get it all dialed in.

Yes we can.

[Shane Horning]

Why not just install autotech piston on oem pump?

Sent from my SM-G935V using Audizine mobile app

[energy_legs]

Can you share which HPFP and LPFP you wound up with or is that APR secret vault stuff?

LPFP is a TTRS pump, I think there is also a torqbyte wired in. This is not exactly plug and play stuff, but it can be made to fit. My basket is so modified at this point I dont even remember what stock looks like :P. Also I tried a couple different brands of rubber in-tank fuel lines and those failed. Ultimately settled on PTFE corrugated lines from Radium Engineering for everything in the tank.

HPFP is APR internals that I cobbled together. I don't know if APR has any interest in selling, they don't have a test program to fully test it like they do with all their other HPFP. Also for it to be right it needs to be tuned for, I've heard stories of people getting their car to start and run without tuning but it's not right.

[energy_legs]

LPFP is a TTRS pump, I think there is also a torqbyte wired in. This is not exactly plug and play stuff, but it can be made to fit. My basket is so modified at this point I dont even remember what stock looks like :P. Also I tried a couple different brands of rubber in-tank fuel lines and those failed. Ultimately settled on PTFE corrugated lines from Radium Engineering for everything in the tank.

HPFP is APR internals that I cobbled together. I don't know if APR has any interest in selling, they don't have a test program to fully test it like they do with all their other HPFP. Also for it to be right it needs to be tuned for, I've heard stories of people getting their car to start and run without tuning but it's not right.

If it works, do it! I used APR internals because I had access to them.

[energy_legs]

Here's some uncorrected Dyno sheets from APRs dynapak. Courtesy of my friends at APR.

First one is e85 solid with 93 in the dashed line.

Second is a stock auto car at some point in the past overlayed with e85.


Again these are for general comparison these are NOT SAE corrected or normalized for marketing, this is raw measured wheel numbers.

Before anyone asks, the 93 numbers could be more aggressive, but we reduced timing AND boost for 93. To reiterate, I wanted it to be safe since I'm 2000 miles away from APR now.


Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

[Nano909]

We're able to rebuild the HPFP. I don't have it specifically listed on the website but it's the same rebuild internals as our older 2.5 TFSI fuel pump from the first TT RS.

LPFP - I don't specially remember, but I seem to recall we used a larger OEM pump and controller.

Make an E85 conversion kit for the B8, people will buy! These cars are so affordable now, all the young kids are buying them and wanting to do mods. This platform isn't dead.

[Perry01]

I know there was a lot of interest in the kit, but there were a lot of good reasons why it didn't make it to market.....The vast majority of the challenge is tuning for ethanol. I'm not going to be a good source for parts list/cost for this conversion. Basic list off the top of my head is LPFP, PTFE in take fuel lines, LPFP controller (torqbyte?), HPFP, ethanol content sensor, injectors. Then a BOAT load of calibration time to get it all dialed in

I think an important part of that kit is the ethanol sensor. Without the ethanol sensor sending the ethanol content in fuel to the CPU (which factors that into the fueling and timing maps) it’s hard to get the maximum benefits of E85. CPUs can only learn and adapt to a certain degree.

I bet the engineers at APR spent a lot of time dialing in your non-flex fuel motor to run on pure E85.

[EvolutionArmory]

The TTRS pump is not flex fuel rated. Be prepared for E85 to kill it over time.

Lots of guys were using TTRS pumps in B7 baskets a few years ago in that subforum but it’s not a great option for flex fuel. You might as well just throw a Walbro 450 in there if you’re gonna chop up your stock basket to stick a TTRS pump in there. If it was a drop in mod the TTRS pump would be great for pump gas.

There’s better options though.

[energy_legs]

Make an E85 conversion kit for the B8, people will buy! These cars are so affordable now, all the young kids are buying them and wanting to do mods. This platform isn't dead.

I dont think it's "dead" in the sense that no one wants to modify, it's more of a situation that with limited resources and the amount of work the newer and more popular platforms take there has to be a business decision made.

Plus, for those who dont know, there are a TON of different boxcodes for the B8, porting the calibration to all those box-codes, testing them, then supporting them is a huge amount of work. Work that would take away from all other other commitments APR has already made.

Make an E85 conversion kit for the B8, people will buy! These cars are so affordable now, all the young kids are buying them and wanting to do mods. This platform isn't dead.

I dont think it's "dead" in the sense that no one wants to modify, it's more of a situation that with limited resources and the amount of work the newer and more popular platforms take there has to be a business decision made.

Plus, for those who dont know, there are a TON of different boxcodes for the B8, porting the calibration to all those box-codes, testing them, then supporting them is a huge amount of work. Work that would take away from all other other commitments APR has already made.

The other challenge is e85 tunes are not going to be flex fuel tunes. There is a lot that can go wrong with switching between fuels if you dont know what you're doing. APR wants to released a polished turn-key product and e85. I think the race gas people who map switch typically know what they're doing or are willing to invest in the knowledge because it's not easy to get and it's not cheap. E85 comes out of a pump and is typically cheaper than gas... My $.02

Ultimately APR is going to make the best business decision for them. That's the only way they survive to keep building and supporting products.

Plus, what would people be willing to pay for an e85 conversion kit? $1000, $2000, $3000 by the time you include labor and ancillary parts? Seems hard to justify for cars that are valued at $6000-$18000.

[energy_legs]

The TTRS pump is not flex fuel rated. Be prepared for E85 to kill it over time.

Lots of guys were using TTRS pumps in B7 baskets a few years ago in that subforum but it’s not a great option for flex fuel. You might as well just throw a Walbro 450 in there if you’re gonna chop up your stock basket to stick a TTRS pump in there. If it was a drop in mod the TTRS pump would be great for pump gas.

There’s better options though.

I agree, it's likely not the best option. It works for now though :). I have enough diagnostic tools to keep an eye on everything and I can fix things like this if/when the time comes.

E85 is not kind to a lot of things so it's kind of an expectation that the fuel system is now a maintenance item and needs a watchful eye.

[Arin@APR]

Plus, for those who dont know, there are a TON of different boxcodes for the B8, porting the calibration to all those box-codes, testing them, then supporting them is a huge amount of work.

I just counted over 125 box codes with a quick scan. There are probably more.

[19birel]

From what you have described the software aspect seems to be the limiting factor indicating that this likely isn't on the DIY level for most of us. Given what you just said with regards to the implications and cost of a potential "kit" to retrofit this it sounds like if someone wanted to build a similar setup to yours and run E85 they are better served starting with a B8.5 with a ZF8 that is flex fuel from factory.
B8.5 values have taken another hit over the last year or so, and early cars are getting cheap so maybe that's the ticket?

This makes me wonder, simply for the sake of curiosity, what other things APR managed to achieve on this platform but shelved for one reason or another...

[energy_legs]

From what you have described the software aspect seems to be the limiting factor indicating that this likely isn't on the DIY level for most of us. Given what you just said with regards to the implications and cost of a potential "kit" to retrofit this it sounds like if someone wanted to build a similar setup to yours and run E85 they are better served starting with a B8.5 with a ZF8 that is flex fuel from factory.
B8.5 values have taken another hit over the last year or so, and early cars are getting cheap so maybe that's the ticket?

This makes me wonder, simply for the sake of curiosity, what other things APR managed to achieve on this platform but shelved for one reason or another...

I would highly recommend a b8.5 with factory flex capability. That's the way to go. The ZF8 speed is awesome even though it's not a manual, and there are a number of ways to adjust shift points now that make higher power builds more appealing.

APR did have an allroad with the development kit on it, the ZF handled the power just fine, but it needed a shift point remap due to the different powerband. We didn't have those tools at the time so that was another reason the kit was shelved.

As far as other things for the b8a4 platform. There wasn't much else, because of the unique engine config (gen2) and the software branch and boxcode complexity it was always very difficult to justify going beyond k04.

B8.5 K04 on E85 is a pretty awesome setup I would recommend it. Power and torque are similar to some level of s4, but it's a different character, PLUS you can still get 30+mpg on gas with the a4.