APR vs IE vs EPL Stage 1 vs 2

[bradthebold]

I know there are a bunch of threads out there (that I've read), but tunes and opinions keep changing. I just got a '13 3.0T and am trying to decide on a tune. Most posts say all stage 1 tunes are the same, but the vendors numbers are incredibly different.

APR - Stage 1: 444hp/372tq $1250 at dealer w/tax
Stage 2: 458hp/387tq $1855 with $120 ECS pulley tool if I install


It's basically 15ft lbs across the range for $600 for stage 2, definitely not worth it with their numbers. They are the most expensive.

EPL - Stage 1: ??? dyno $940 w/cable at current sale price
- Stage 2: ??? $1460 with $120 tool
- ZF tune - $500

No recent dyno numbers, significantly cheaper, offers a ZF tune with the same cable. No top speed limiter removal.


IE - Stage 1: 416hp/391tq $1050 w/cable
- Stage 2: 435hp/423tq $1470 w/$120 tool

Way more torque.

I don't know if it's crank vs wheel conversion variations or something, but the APR and IE numbers aren't even close to each other. APR stage 1 makes more HP than IE stage 2 and IE stage 2 gains significantly more torque. Definitely not in the realm of all OTS tunes are the same.

APR is considerably more expensive, paying tax and labor, and I can't load tunes after it. EPL had some issues with the tune in the past, but seems ok now? Still a lot of EPL tune sale threads, but maybe that's just because they give you that option. Is their ZF tune worth $500, does it raise shift RPMs in drive? IE has concerns about being new. I'm not sure what seems best.

[Logtec]

I know there are a bunch of threads out there (that I've read), but tunes and opinions keep changing. I just got a '13 3.0T and am trying to decide on a tune. Most posts say all stage 1 tunes are the same, but the vendors numbers are incredibly different.

APR - Stage 1: 444hp/372tq $1250 at dealer w/tax
Stage 2: 458hp/387tq $1855 with $120 ECS pulley tool if I install


It's basically 15ft lbs across the range for $600 for stage 2, definitely not worth it with their numbers. They are the most expensive.

EPL - Stage 1: ??? dyno $940 w/cable at current sale price
- Stage 2: ??? $1460 with $120 tool
- ZF tune - $500

No recent dyno numbers, significantly cheaper, offers a ZF tune with the same cable. No top speed limiter removal.


IE - Stage 1: 416hp/391tq $1050 w/cable
- Stage 2: 435hp/423tq $1470 w/$120 tool

Way more torque.

I don't know if it's crank vs wheel conversion variations or something, but the APR and IE numbers aren't even close to each other. APR stage 1 makes more HP than IE stage 2 and IE stage 2 gains significantly more torque. Definitely not in the realm of all OTS tunes are the same.

APR is considerably more expensive, paying tax and labor, and I can't load tunes after it. EPL had some issues with the tune in the past, but seems ok now? Still a lot of EPL tune sale threads, but maybe that's just because they give you that option. Is their ZF tune worth $500, does it raise shift RPMs in drive? IE has concerns about being new. I'm not sure what seems best.

EPL is the best, APR is overpriced.

[djn876]

You are going to get the same opinions here that come out in every other thread. I like EPL and I like their ZF tune. It probably doesn't change much in drive, but does raise max RPM which frees up a fair amount of power. I would think prior to stage two Don't get hung up on dyno numbers, unless they were done on the same dyno, on the same day, with the same car, it can be hard to compare one to one. Plus pulley sizes might be a little different, etc. They are close enough that you probably could get those numbers even from the same car on different dynos or weather conditions.

For me, the important stuff was good customer service and the ability to easily flash at home. EPL provided both of those to me. Plus they support added components like TBs, etc. without having to buy their specific parts. They do not have an E40 tune which seems popular too, but I don't have ethanol widely available near me so it didn't matter. Places like 034/IE didn't have much for the SQ5 at the time I was looking so can't really compare much. Think about where you may want to go with the car for potential changes down the road and which tuner will offer the most support for your goals with the vehicle.

[bradthebold]

This is my wife's car, that I will drive often enough, but not daily. If it was mine, I would for sure go dual pulley and cooling upgrades, but she doesn't really care. I'm leaning towards EPL and that's who tuned my B5. She will probably never shift at redline, so I probably won't get the tune initially at least. There is a ton of mixed opinions and data on stage 1 v 2 though as well. Some say going stage 2 is a huge improvement down low, some say they regret it and should have just gone dual pulley and it wasn't much different. APR only shows a 15 ft lb gain, but IE shows 32 ft lbs. At least the same data within in the same company would hopefully be comparable, but IE shows over double the gain going stage 2.

[PR.138]

When I first nodded my S5, I went with EPL stage 2. They gave me a stage 1 tune to flash until I got around to installing the pulley. Stage 2 is definitely noticeable over stage 1 - like you’ve already heard, it’s more torque down low than it is ultimate top end horsepower. That being said, this is torque you’ll notice every day. It’s a push you back in your seat amount of torque over stage 1. It also does show up in faster 1/4 mile times, so I’d consider it at least feeling like more than “just 20hp” or whatever the companies quote.

Those quoted numbers are all over the place. I wouldn’t even really look at their charts as they very well could have had different pulley ratios, weather conditions, and dyno correction factors. All I know is I’m happy with EPL and most everyone seems to be happy with IE, 034, APR, and the rest of the known name tuners. You can’t really go wrong here. Either go with EPL and get the ZF8 tune or go with another tuner and grab an HP tuner to do your own trans flash.

[1RAudiSQ5]

Where are you getting those APR numbers from? There website says different.

[bradthebold]

Where are you getting those APR numbers from? There website says different.

On the Q5 page. 93 octane stage 1

[1RAudiSQ5]

Awww... makes sense now. Thought those were SQ5 numbers

[bradthebold]

Wheel numbers are different conversions and are much more comparable between the two companies. I averaged their wheel numbers together and get:

Stage 1: 362hp/336tq

Stage 2: 378hp/364tq_____+16hp/28tq_____+~$500 (EPL w/crank pulley)_____$17.85/wheel ft lb

____DP : 391hp/401tq_____+13hp/37tq_____+~$750 (EPL w/Merc HX)________$20.27/wheel ft lb


And kind of a bonus, at least IE's DP graph makes more HP at the stock shift point vs 7200, so you could put that $500 ZF tune towards DP instead and make it a $250 upgrade The EPL sale comes with a free DP tune, so I think I'll probably go crank single pulley now, then can add a SC pulley, do some maintenance, and the HX and be ready for DP later if I want.

[MSq5]

Wheel numbers are different conversions and are much more comparable between the two companies. I averaged their wheel numbers together and get:

Stage 1: 362hp/336tq

Stage 2: 378hp/364tq_____+16hp/28tq_____+~$500 (EPL w/crank pulley)_____$17.85/wheel ft lb

____DP : 391hp/401tq_____+13hp/37tq_____+~$750 (EPL w/Merc HX)________$20.27/wheel ft lb


And kind of a bonus, at least IE's DP graph makes more HP at the stock shift point vs 7200, so you could put that $500 ZF tune towards DP instead and make it a $250 upgrade The EPL sale comes with a free DP tune, so I think I'll probably go crank single pulley now, then can add a SC pulley, do some maintenance, and the HX and be ready for DP later if I want.

For gosh sakes. This has been beat to death. There is no one correct answer. All three tunes have been perfected and refined over quite a few years of R&D and consumer feedback. They all develop beta tunes and use members to test and further refine them.

There will not be more than one tenth difference in 0-60 or quarter mile times, tune for tune with equally modified cars.

Do not go by published dyno charts. You can dyno two seemingly identical cars on the same day on the same dyno and get 20hp difference. You can dyno the same car on two different dynos on the same day and see that much difference or more. The company will always pick the higher isolated run on its tune and display it against the lowest isolated stock tune run.

Then, there is the fallacy of converting dyno hp and torque to crankshaft hp and torque. There is no accepted standardized drive line loss for our cars. Some tuners use higher loss % than others to make their numbers look higher. It’s advertising.

EPL does not publish hp/torque ratings for this reason. You can look up 0-60, 1/8 and 1/4 mile times from posted data in this board. Numbers are all over the place for the same tunes, because of atmosphere, temps, track conditions. Fuel quality and temps are huge factors. Cooling of the supercharger cores becomes a challenge as power goes up, and not everyone is using the same cooling solutions.

Personally, not enough thought is given to factors not measurable. The smoothness of the tune in daily driving, off throttle and part throttle performance in all modes and all gears is important.

It’s not so much absolute peak power, but power under the curve. A fat torque curve can and often does produce superior quarter mile time than does a higher peak hp and torque on a narrow power band. A fat broad torque curve is also more advantageous during part throttle driving than a peaky one.

The 6,300 rpm upshift on the ZF8 is much lower than the peak rpm shown on dyno charts made by cars with different transmissions.

To get that performance, you do need a transmission tune to raise shift points to 6,900-7,000 rpm, at least.

My advice: ask more questions about refinement in the tune under all driving conditions and don’t fixate on actual or perceived minor differences in claimed power. They are all extremely close. Ask more questions about service after the sale. You really can’t lose among these three.

My choice or someone else’s, is just a personal opinion based on personal factors. Most of use have not run all three tunes on the same car and will have biases.

My choice was largely influenced by two factors:

1. I wanted flash at home versatility.
2. I was impressed by the stellar raves by users about superb customer service and virtually instant responsiveness.

I’m very happy with EPL. If someone showed my that another tune was a tenth or two quicker, it would not influence my decision. You will likely be very happy with EPL, but may be just as happy with either of the others.

[Surfer8210]

These are some of the best posts and certainly one of the best threads about these different tunes.
I am on EPL Stage 2 Single pulley, along with DSG tune.
14” S5, I’m very happy.


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[flyfishing]

How is the TCU tune for EPL? I have their stage 1 and I am satisfied with it. I'm going to get it at some point, but just curious what you feel the difference is. Thanks

[NXDR9VW5oooo]

***"Personally, not enough thought is given to factors not measurable. The smoothness of the tune in daily driving, off throttle and part throttle performance in all modes and all gears is important.

It’s not so much absolute peak power, but power under the curve. A fat torque curve can and often does produce superior quarter mile time than does a higher peak hp and torque on a narrow power band. A fat broad torque curve is also more advantageous during part throttle driving than a peaky one.


My advice: ask more questions about refinement in the tune under all driving conditions and don’t fixate on actual or perceived minor differences in claimed power."***


AMEN, an AMEN again...



55449E5*

[Surfer8210]

How is the TCU tune for EPL? I have their stage 1 and I am satisfied with it. I'm going to get it at some point, but just curious what you feel the difference is. Thanks

I have it, and I can’t imagine not having it. Rather than me trying to describe it, I would suggest emailing Chris or Tony at EPL for their insight.
They didn’t try to sell me on it but rather just provided information and let me make my own decision.
My advice though, just go for it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[joe916]

I know there are a bunch of threads out there (that I've read), but tunes and opinions keep changing. I just got a '13 3.0T and am trying to decide on a tune. Most posts say all stage 1 tunes are the same, but the vendors numbers are incredibly different.

APR - Stage 1: 444hp/372tq $1250 at dealer w/tax
Stage 2: 458hp/387tq $1855 with $120 ECS pulley tool if I install


It's basically 15ft lbs across the range for $600 for stage 2, definitely not worth it with their numbers. They are the most expensive.

EPL - Stage 1: ??? dyno $940 w/cable at current sale price
- Stage 2: ??? $1460 with $120 tool
- ZF tune - $500

No recent dyno numbers, significantly cheaper, offers a ZF tune with the same cable. No top speed limiter removal.


IE - Stage 1: 416hp/391tq $1050 w/cable
- Stage 2: 435hp/423tq $1470 w/$120 tool

Way more torque.

I don't know if it's crank vs wheel conversion variations or something, but the APR and IE numbers aren't even close to each other. APR stage 1 makes more HP than IE stage 2 and IE stage 2 gains significantly more torque. Definitely not in the realm of all OTS tunes are the same.

APR is considerably more expensive, paying tax and labor, and I can't load tunes after it. EPL had some issues with the tune in the past, but seems ok now? Still a lot of EPL tune sale threads, but maybe that's just because they give you that option. Is their ZF tune worth $500, does it raise shift RPMs in drive? IE has concerns about being new. I'm not sure what seems best.

if your into 1/4 numbers then yes there is a difference in the tuning company you chose if you just want a basic tune with out doing a tcu tune then pick any and be happy if your going for the fastest 1/4 numbers then IE/APR/034 are proven to go 120+mph

[ILVTRANCE]

I have it, and I can’t imagine not having it. Rather than me trying to describe it, I would suggest emailing Chris or Tony at EPL for their insight.
They didn’t try to sell me on it but rather just provided information and let me make my own decision.
My advice though, just go for it.


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+1

[pattyt]

I have it, and I can’t imagine not having it. Rather than me trying to describe it, I would suggest emailing Chris or Tony at EPL for their insight.
They didn’t try to sell me on it but rather just provided information and let me make my own decision.
My advice though, just go for it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I just flashed in the EPL ECU tune last night. I have already been on EPL Stage 1 for more than a year. Opening up the rev range to 7000 rpm and speeding up the shifts makes an enormous difference in the ability to move this SUV quickly. Highly recommended.
And as always Chris @ EPL was quick and easy to work with.

[WideSuppie]

Jesus, DP really bump the power that much?

[blkmz3]

I just flashed in the EPL ECU tune last night. I have already been on EPL Stage 1 for more than a year. Opening up the rev range to 7000 rpm and speeding up the shifts makes an enormous difference in the ability to move this SUV quickly. Highly recommended.
And as always Chris @ EPL was quick and easy to work with.

Curious to see your review after some more driving.