B6 S4 - Tiptronic to manual swap

[Dondbg]

I have my B6 S4 Sedan which needs timing job done and new TQ, a week back I found a totalled manual S4 B6 avant and I bought it for parts.

Now I’m thinking and since I’m going to pull my S4 engine why not do manual trans conversion since I have all what I need and I’d like a manual V8.

Been reading around and saw few other conversions taking place and main points are:

Code the car ECU, ABS and dash to manual before disconnecting anything
I will need the following from the donor car:
Gearbox and shifter
Clutch
Front axels
Drive shaft
Rear diff
And engine wiring harness
Trans mounts

Have found this picture online which gives an idea



It sounds simple but I know it’s not and I never attempted such job in such scale.

What else I need to consider
What else needs to be moved over
Is there any cutting / grinding / metal modifications required or it will bolt right in ?

Any information would be appreciated.

[Jdsb6s4]

you just have to code your modules over to a manual, run a wire for reverse line and clutch switch.. Vinny can chime in on this one. Other than that it makes the car THAT much more fun to drive. Shorter gear ratios than the tiptronic and also try to snag a b7 transmission, they come with a 4:1 center diff 60/40 split as opposed to the b6 models with 50/50 split.

[Gosser]

Looks like you have most of it. I am not sure how the auto B6S4s are mounted, but I want to say you will need the manual transmission cross member along with that mount. Down pipes are also different between auto and manual. Auto down pipes should fit the manual, but the tabs attached them to the transmission might not align. I would definitely just use the manual down pipes since everything is out anyways.

Only thing I am not sure is the pilot bearing provisions on the crank for the v8s. I know they differ from tip to manual(cvt is same as manuals) on 1.8ts and you need an adapter. But looking quickly online, it looks like the pilot bearing is like the 01Es where it is housed in the flywheel and not the crank, so you might be fine.

Provisions for the clutch/slave line are already in the fire wall with grommets, just pop them out. Brake fluid reservoir already has a tap that just needs to be cut.

It is a completely bolt in affair, no cutting or welding.

Good luck!

[Dondbg]

Thanks guys.

[NALS4]

What about balancing? When I did my chains job, several of the drivetrain components that I disconnected either already had alignment marks on them, or I was supposed to make them myself. I put it back together matching most of them up, and fortunately I don't have an imbalance problem. What about making a complete transplant like this? Anything for the OP to look out for?

[Dondbg]

I have the habit of marking everything I remove with a paint marker or just a light scratch with a screw driver, and I do take a lot of pictures - most of the time it won’t matter when put stuff back together but this is really a good point.

Can’t wait to start this project as soon I finish working on the two A4’s I have and sell one.

[VinnysS4]

you just have to code your modules over to a manual, run a wire for reverse line and clutch switch.. Vinny can chime in on this one. Other than that it makes the car THAT much more fun to drive. Shorter gear ratios than the tiptronic and also try to snag a b7 transmission, they come with a 4:1 center diff 60/40 split as opposed to the b6 models with 50/50 split.

When I did my B7 swap, I had to swap the software from my auto ECU to manual software, Then I could code the modules. It is good practice to do this before removing the automatic transmission. That way when you Go to start it for the first time, the ECU doesn’t see a missing signal from the transmission control module. And yes, get a B7 transmission with the 4:1 if possible.

Looks like you have most of it. I am not sure how the auto B6S4s are mounted, but I want to say you will need the manual transmission cross member along with that mount. Down pipes are also different between auto and manual. Auto down pipes should fit the manual, but the tabs attached them to the transmission might not align. I would definitely just use the manual down pipes since everything is out anyways.

Only thing I am not sure is the pilot bearing provisions on the crank for the v8s. I know they differ from tip to manual(cvt is same as manuals) on 1.8ts and you need an adapter. But looking quickly online, it looks like the pilot bearing is like the 01Es where it is housed in the flywheel and not the crank, so you might be fine.

Provisions for the clutch/slave line are already in the fire wall with grommets, just pop them out. Brake fluid reservoir already has a tap that just needs to be cut.

It is a completely bolt in affair, no cutting or welding.

Good luck!

The automatic transmission has mounts on the side. The manual transmission has a mount in the center so you need the bat wing crossmember. Yes automatic down pipes will fit the manual, but if you have access to manual downpipe‘s, you will have better ground clearance with those As the flex pipes are higher up on the manual downpipe’s versus the automatic
On the automatic, there is a half inch thick spacer between the crank and the flex plate. Are you do is remove this and you can bolt on a fly wheel with no problem. The pilot bearing is in the center of the fly wheel.
I highly suggest getting a stainless braided clutch line like the one that USP sells. It makes installation much much easier.

What about balancing? When I did my chains job, several of the drivetrain components that I disconnected either already had alignment marks on them, or I was supposed to make them myself. I put it back together matching most of them up, and fortunately I don't have an imbalance problem. What about making a complete transplant like this? Anything for the OP to look out for?

The driveshaft is balanced to itself. Yes it is good practice to mark everything and reassemble exactly as it was taken apart, but you should not have any balancing issues putting in a different driveshaft. If you do, the driveshaft is unbalanced.

There are a couple other things that you will need to do. Reverse lights need to be tapped into the harness as the automatic reverse lights are activated differently than the manual transmission. You will need to run a wire to the brake switch and run a wire for the clutch switch in order to get your cruise control working.


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[Dondbg]

When I did my B7 swap, I had to swap the software from my auto ECU to manual software, Then I could code the modules. It is good practice to do this before removing the automatic transmission. That way when you Go to start it for the first time, the ECU doesn’t see a missing signal from the transmission control module. And yes, get a B7 transmission with the 4:1 if possible.



The automatic transmission has mounts on the side. The manual transmission has a mount in the center so you need the bat wing crossmember. Yes automatic down pipes will fit the manual, but if you have access to manual downpipe‘s, you will have better ground clearance with those As the flex pipes are higher up on the manual downpipe’s versus the automatic
On the automatic, there is a half inch thick spacer between the crank and the flex plate. Are you do is remove this and you can bolt on a fly wheel with no problem. The pilot bearing is in the center of the fly wheel.
I highly suggest getting a stainless braided clutch line like the one that USP sells. It makes installation much much easier.



The driveshaft is balanced to itself. Yes it is good practice to mark everything and reassemble exactly as it was taken apart, but you should not have any balancing issues putting in a different driveshaft. If you do, the driveshaft is unbalanced.

There are a couple other things that you will need to do. Reverse lights need to be tapped into the harness as the automatic reverse lights are activated differently than the manual transmission. You will need to run a wire to the brake switch and run a wire for the clutch switch in order to get your cruise control working.


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What do you mean by “swap the software” please - so it’s not a coding and done.

Brake switch wire - added to the list.

The good thing I have the whole donor car, so will grab all what I need, I was thinking to unbolt front and rear sub frames and move the whole thing across, ideally with the engine and trans but I can’t do that with one pair of hands only.

[Dondbg]

I took the totalled S4 for a spin to make sure trans all good, Man this V8 manual is soo much fun to drive !

[VinnysS4]

What do you mean by “swap the software” please - so it’s not a coding and done.

Brake switch wire - added to the list.

The good thing I have the whole donor car, so will grab all what I need, I was thinking to unbolt front and rear sub frames and move the whole thing across, ideally with the engine and trans but I can’t do that with one pair of hands only.

From my experience, my car wouldn’t take coding and required me to Use a program called “Galetto perfect English” . It took a little computer wizardry to get my Ross tech cable to work to flash the software . My car (b7 ) wouldn’t let me use me7logger


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[Dondbg]

From my experience, my car wouldn’t take coding and required me to Use a program called “Galetto perfect English” . It took a little computer wizardry to get my Ross tech cable to work to flash the software . My car (b7 ) wouldn’t let me use me7logger


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Thanks Vinny!

If all goes well this would be the last bit and I get stuck then I will PM you for further details - but the above should give a good start digging further. Cheers.

[Jdsb6s4]

I took the totalled S4 for a spin to make sure trans all good, Man this V8 manual is soo much fun to drive !

I would sure hope so. Shorter gear ratios, less weight, its a win win.

[Dondbg]

I would sure hope so. Shorter gear ratios, less weight, its a win win.

I hope I will succeed in frankenstein’ing it in the sedan tip S4....

[Atomic Avant]

Any updates? I maybe looking to do this in the near future.

[Dondbg]

Was hoping to start but this shit-19 and all NZ is on lockdown and I need to buy few bits , so will just start with washing the under of the car from all the oil and dirt before I garage it and start removing stuff from the donor car.

[Dondbg]

Slow progress, finally got the time and started pulling apart the donor car since I sold most of the parts that I don’t need, today I pulled the engine with the trans, it’s a bit harder vs the auto due the to the shifter clearance but it is out





One axel bolt was ruined, previous owner or mechanic messed it so I had to grind it in order to remove the axels



Next is the rear diff and clutch slave line, paddle, And whatever I see I need then will pull it out and bring this in to garage



Before I slam in the manual trans in it I need to replace the chain guides and tensioners as the chains rattles and from the sound of it, it is a broken guide, was looking around and found this kit which covers all would need except for the adjusters which I’m not going to change

[NALS4]

The JHM kit may only include one of the two RS4 aluminum guides, the lower center one. You might want to get the upper center one, too, for peace of mind. Usually I think of it as not a lot of additional money, but shipping might make it a big deal for you.

[Dondbg]

Ya shipping to NZ is expensive, I can get the parts from VW dealer and it work out cheaper as I get 27% discount since my buddy works there but I need to give him part numbers.

Have looked and so far gathered this list, missing few bits ya and need the bolts that must be replaced in the process


1x 079 109 469 AA Driver Left Lower Timing Chain Guide Rail Center Upper Timing Chain
1x 079 109 513 C Lower Timing Chain Guide Rail Left Timing Chain
1x 079 109 510 E Lower Timing Chain Guide Rail Right Timing Chain
1x 079 109 507 G Timing Chain Tensioner Guide Rail Center Lower Timing Chain
1x 079 109 469 AD Upper Timing Chain Guide Rail Center Upper Timing Chain
1x 079-109-510 M Passenger Right Lower Timing Chain Guide Rail Center Upper Timing Chain
2x 079 109 514 B Upper Timing Chain Guide Rail Right Timing Chain

And have to have a Bentley manual which I don’t.

[All_Black_A4]

If you can't or don't get your hands on the Bentley manual, buried in one of the timing chain threads there's a link to the pro demand guide for the timing job. If I remember where I'll post a link to it...... or some one else is welcome to also Will have that on hand when it comes time for me to do my own timing job. The JHM video on YouTube is good also.

[Dondbg]

That would be great to have, thank you.

And yes JHM is what encouraged me to take in this work

[All_Black_A4]

That would be great to have, thank you.

And yes JHM is what encouraged me to take in this work

It's in this thread here. Scroll down to post #52. A dropbox file courtesy of Mike50design. In it you'll find the pro demand guide plus a ton of other useful info and pics.
I've scoured through that so many times it's great. It's almost timing chain porn

https://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...uly-2017/page2

[Dondbg]

Thank you! That is awesome thread, I still see so much debate on whether RS4 guide fits B6 S4, will need to read more but I probably will go with S4.

VinnyS4 pointed out the clutch / slave line and I had a look at the it and such a pain to get that routed and probably I will get this instead


http://www.myaudis4.com/usp-slave-cy...l-clutch-line/

This one is for a left hand drive and I need right hand.

[Dondbg]

Edit:

That how it should look like so all is good.



——————-


Today I removed the drive shaft



And by looking at the rear dif I see what appears to be a missing piece , something broken



I couldn’t find a the metal piece, but how this could happen? Or this is how it should be

Never been there before ....

[VinnysS4]

That’s a locking notch so the bolt doesn’t walk out like some axle bolts have.

Looking good so far man! Btw. I have opened b6, 05.5 b7 b7, late model b7.... the aluminum upper center RS4 guide fits. Have yet to find one it doesn’t fit.


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[QWIKSVO]

Hi, the part numbers for the guides: RS4 guide part numbers: 059109469E-upper, drive chain; 059109469F-left, drive chain. I am doing this job on one of my S4s right now and just bought these last week. This car only has 65,000 and the left guide one the drive chain is already broken.

I highly suggest you watch the "JHM Timing Chain Kit Installation Visual Walk Through - Audi B6-B7 S4 and C5 Allroad 4.2L" video on YouTube here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6LfxKY-RSE It is very good. Also, I have a pdf of the factory service procedure for timing chains that I will post if I can figure out how.

[Dondbg]

Thanks heaps guys.

Since I’m in NZ, I want to order from now the timing kit so by the time I pull the second engine it should be here, I’m planning to replace guides and tensioners only and re use the chains as I never read any where they stretch or I’m wrong ?
If so and after looking online and watching JHM video i figured that I do not need to remove the chain sprockets the ones I circled in red ?



And the rails / guides circled in green are the ones to use upgraded RS4 ones right ?

059109469F
059109469E


Below is from Europaparts.


Do you guys recommend Europaparts kit or JHM, both use upgraded guides, I don’t see any difference.

[All_Black_A4]

Thanks heaps guys.

Since I’m in NZ, I want to order from now the timing kit so by the time I pull the second engine it should be here, I’m planning to replace guides and tensioners only and re use the chains as I never read any where they stretch or I’m wrong ?
If so and after looking online and watching JHM video i figured that I do not need to remove the chain sprockets the ones I circled in red ?



And the rails / guides circled in green are the ones to use upgraded RS4 ones right ?

059109469F
059109469E


Below is from Europaparts.


Do you guys recommend Europaparts kit or JHM, both use upgraded guides, I don’t see any difference.

Correct. The ones circled in green are the upgraded guides.
I guess you could get by without removing the ones circled in red. At least the exhaust sprocket you could leave in place but for piece of mind you may want to take the mechanical adjuster off and check the pin holes on both of them to make sure they're not wallowed out. Yeah, you'd have to replace the 2 bolts and some new o-rings for the adjuster but while the engine is out it's a whole lot easier to do. Those with more knowledge/experience will be able to confirm if that's a good idea or not.
I kinda just use the common sense approach I'm not sure how it would work when it comes to torquing the new bolts though if the exhaust ones are already torqued to spec.

I can't comment on whether you should choose JHM or Europa parts kits. I've bought neither I do plan on using Europaparts for most of my timing stuff. I don't need to purchase a complete kit, just the upgraded guides and most of the tensioners. I'm re-using the chains also. I'll be using JHM and ECS for the miscellaneous stuff like gaskets, seals and bolts etc. I'm not going to bother adding it all up til the job is done

[Dondbg]

Correct. The ones circled in green are the upgraded guides.
I guess you could get by without removing the ones circled in red. At least the exhaust sprocket you could leave in place but for piece of mind you may want to take the mechanical adjuster off and check the pin holes on both of them to make sure they're not wallowed out. Yeah, you'd have to replace the 2 bolts and some new o-rings for the adjuster but while the engine is out it's a whole lot easier to do. Those with more knowledge/experience will be able to confirm if that's a good idea or not.
I kinda just use the common sense approach I'm not sure how the would work when it comes to torquing the new bolts though if the exhaust ones are already torqued to spec

I can't comment on whether you should choose JHM or Europa parts kits. I've bought neither I do plan on using Europaparts for most of my timing stuff. I don't need to purchase a complete kit, just the upgraded guides and most of the tensioners. I'm re-using the chains also. I'll be using JHM and ECS for the miscellaneous stuff like gaskets, seals and bolts etc. I'm not going to bother adding it all up til the job is done

I have a used mechanical and electrical adjusters from an S4 I wrecked with 90k km engine, will inspect them and hope they are good as spares.



Been looking around; ECS, Europa and JHM, if I went with guides and tensioners only and added all to cart will end up with very similar price vs buying a kit with the chains, will check with the dealer as well especially I can get up to 27% of the retail price and make the call but I have a feeling I will buy from Europa the whole kit.

And I plan to swap the check valves and gaskets

Will see what I can get from eBay, Eastern Europe sellers got good deals on genuine parts.

So today I managed to remove more bits from the donor S4



Left only the paddles and the clutch line and I reckon that’s all I need from this car

[Dondbg]

Ok the mechanical adjusters I have are no good, the hole is not perfect circle, not sure how much is too much, can someone confirm ?

This is a 90k km engine, the one I’m fixing got 231k km so pretty sure the hole over there would be shaped like an egg!



Add adjuster to the list


BUT .... edit

If I’m not getting camshaft error over advanced on today I guess my adjusters are still fine, so a bit of wear is ok

[Dondbg]

@AllblackA4, see this


https://youtu.be/z3EagRJN8sc

At the beginning he explains how to tell if you have a bad adjuster ... ideal issues, misfires and cam codes, my S4 motor runs smooth so I’m saving the $$ for adjusters.

[All_Black_A4]

@AllblackA4, see this


https://youtu.be/z3EagRJN8sc

At the beginning he explains how to tell if you have a bad adjuster ... ideal issues, misfires and cam codes, my S4 motor runs smooth so I’m saving the $$ for adjusters.

I've watched that one numerous times as well

The mechanical adjusters I removed from my last part out had very little wear on them at all. Engine had over 204K kms. I'll check the set on the engine that I'm doing the timing job on and use the best pair of the 4. For the price of a few O-rings it's well worth it to check them

[Dondbg]

I've watched that one numerous times as well

The mechanical adjusters I removed from my last part out had very little wear on them at all. Engine had over 204K kms. I'll check the set on the engine that I'm doing the timing job on and use the best pair of the 4. For the price of a few O-rings it's well worth it to check them

Link for the Orings and I don’t think we can get the black spring perch ?

[All_Black_A4]

These are the ones.

https://jhmotorsports.com/products/e...-adjuster.html

I haven't seen the black spring perch thingy you speak of. I've read the replacement/aftermarket ones weren't all that good. Didn't fit right. Pretty sure unless they're completely destroyed you can reuse them. That's probably what I'll end up doing.

[VinnysS4]

These are the ones.

https://jhmotorsports.com/products/e...-adjuster.html

I haven't seen the black spring perch thingy you speak of. I've read the replacement/aftermarket ones weren't all that good. Didn't fit right. Pretty sure unless they're completely destroyed you can reuse them. That's probably what I'll end up doing.

As far as I know, and I looked, there is no replacement spring perches available separate on the market. JHM are the only ones that have these in their adjuster rebuild kit and even those don’t fit properly. I contacted JHM about them and they told me to buy their $750 rebuild kit. I made a set out of some aluminum sheet metal for my car. 40k miles on them and they work fine. They are not hard to make. It only required a hole punch to punch out the inner circle and then the outter size diameter circle. Then I took a file and shaped them how I wanted. I have some pics laying around.

That being said, if they are still in one piece, you can reuse them.


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[Dondbg]

The set of spare adjusters perches I have are in one piece so if mine are toast I have a spare.




Got heaps of junk



The shipping of these little things to NZ is insane but I have to buy the orings.

Back to the main topic, I’m going to use the manual donor car engine harness which got the reverse light plug already so one wire run is not required I guess ? But the champs who worked on this engine before broke most of not all connectors



But discovered that the airbag sensors uses the same one, will spend some time replacing them



The clutch switch will need to run, will trace it on the manual donor car and and figure out where it should connect , easy right ? Lol never

With the limited time I have still trying to take the paddles assembly out, I didn’t expect it be such PITA, pulling the engine is easier, have unscrewed all the obvious bits but from reading on the B5 forum I guess it is held by the brake booster bolts, pretty tight space for me to squeeze in, will go back there again tonight.

[Dondbg]

Didn’t imagine these two are holding the assembly



Moved the column out of the way



Now the assembly started to move and will move it out the way next

[Dondbg]

Spent like 1.5 hours today, took few bits off


But the brake booster rod sits in a plastic clip in the brake pedal it is very hard to remove



There is very little space to work there and I have to remove the assembly as I couldn’t see a way to remove the clutch pedal alone.

I guess I need to unscrew the booster rode but damn that small space.

I must say this is harder than pulling the engine lol.

[All_Black_A4]

Spent like 1.5 hours today, took few bits off


But the brake booster rod sits in a plastic clip in the brake pedal it is very hard to remove



There is very little space to work there and I have to remove the assembly as I couldn’t see a way to remove the clutch pedal alone.

I guess I need to unscrew the booster rode but damn that small space.

I must say this is harder than pulling the engine lol.

Yeah I've never liked pulling the pedal assembly. I leave that til the end. I'm getting to old to be working upside down in tight cramped spaces
I find it easier to undo the bolt/rod connecting the pedal to the brake booster than trying to pry it out of the clip on the pedal. Takes a little longer but less chance of breaking something...pardon the pun .

[VinnysS4]

Question... can’t you just add the clutch pedal to the pedal assembly? I’m pretty sure that’s what I did. The pedal box is the same.

If you have the manual harness, nothing else is needed for the reverse lights.

You will need to add a wire to the brake pedal/clutch assembly so the computer knows you depressed the clutch. There are 2 switches on the pedal assembly. One is for cruise control.

Keep up the good work!


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[Dondbg]

That was “easy”




And about two flat heads and.... I say ya sure, only way is unscrewing they nut




This how I ended doing it, I know I shouldn’t use vice grip but i don’t care about this booster




@vinny, I don’t see the clutch paddle can be separated, is it possible RH and LH ones are so different, the one I’m looking at is like been pressed in.

Next is to trace the clutch switch wires to where they go or someone can please tell me :)