A different road than K04-064

[Mars2]

A few month ago I bought a super cheap second hand OEM IHI JH5 turbo, Aka K03 ( I don't know why people continue calling it like that)
To study it and see if it was possible to get a hybride built out of it.

When opening it I saw that It got same old style cast compressor wheel as Golf MK6 GTI 40.2/52.5mm

But to my surprised the Turbine Was a very modern Mixed flow 52mm inducer and 44mm exducer with 7 blade and maximum open back to save weight. The Golf GTI Mk6 has 8 blade 45mm/41mm only
What a good surpise knowing that the K04-064 has got a turbine 51mm inducer 44.5mm Exducer with 12 blade and older radial flow shape.


So if I'm not wrong the fact that the JH5 turbine is mixed flow this shape of turbine is the most efficient at the moment and that it's also a bit bigger than the K04_064 turbine let me believe
that the Hot side of this JH5 has more potential than the K04-064 hot side.


So then I search what other compressor wheel are fitted to the JH5 on other platform.
Keep in mind that the K04-064 come with a 46.39mm inducer and 56.08mm exducer compressor wheel 6+6 blade forge CNC wheel
I found that the Audi S6/RS6 4.0TFSI use two JH5 turbo. those are fitted with a 44.2mm inducer and 58mm exducer.
then I found this 4.0TFSI Compressor wheel 44/58mm with 62.46mm extend Tip, narrow nose 6+6 blade Forge alloy cnc .
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Kinugawa-...-/253175182607

I thought mixing this Modern JH5 B8 Mixed flow turbine with a modern 4.0TFSI 44/58mm extend tip could be a very great turbo, plug and play quite cheap.
So I got a company to rebuild that turbo with reinforced 360 bearing, 5 axe CNC ported Compressor housing to fit that 44/58mm compressor wheel.
Then very thing balanced to 250.000 rpm.

That hybrid turbo just arrived to me.
I will instal it in the coming month and get the car tuned for E85.
I will let you know what I put down.
Let's hope that my assumption on the turbine are right and that just did not spend 900 Euro for nothing.

[Chatchie]

Cool info. What software/tuning solution are you using?

[Mars2]

Cool info. What software/tuning solution are you using?

My tuner PBS performance here in France use Winols to create the custom tune and then inject it With B-Flash
the tuning is done on a Dyno.

-Winols
https://www.evc.de/en/product/ols/software/

-B-flash
https://www.bflash.eu

- PBS ( the guy who tune my Car)
https://www.facebook.com/pg/PBS-Perf...=page_internal

[Spawne32]

Kinugawa is the same company as Mambatek pretty much. Rumor has it one of the engineers split off from Kinugawa to form Mambatek on his own but uses the same designs and manufacturers to produce his products as well. If you read my ebay turbo thread, you will see some pretty interesting combinations of custom compressor wheels and turbine wheels they offer for the K04. Those will all fit in the K03 compressor and turbine housings with some machining which you seem to have nailed down. It might be worth investing.

[Depthcharge]

Love the research and creativity here. I wonder how hot it'll run... Would also be interesting to see if some of the other tuning companies could provide suggested values for a flash or a hybrid blade turbo.

[Mars2]

Kinugawa is the same company as Mambatek pretty much. Rumor has it one of the engineers split off from Kinugawa to form Mambatek on his own but uses the same designs and manufacturers to produce his products as well. If you read my ebay turbo thread, you will see some pretty interesting combinations of custom compressor wheels and turbine wheels they offer for the K04. Those will all fit in the K03 compressor and turbine housings with some machining which you seem to have nailed down. It might be worth investing.

I read your full ebay thread. It was very inspiring. You made me realize that the K04-064 had a compressor wheel of 46.39/56.08 and not 46.39/60.5 like mention every where on the net by APR. Thank's for that.

I think we really need to stop to call our OEM turbo a K03. K03 is B&W turbo that never has been on any EA888.2 from the Volkswagen/AUDI/SEAT/SKODA car's.
Our OEM turbo is a IHI JH5 from the family of the IHI RHF5 that is fitted to many cars like all the series of VF turbo from Subaru from the VF20 to VF 58 but also the Turbo of Golf MK7 GTI and R (just those turn in opposite way due to opposite exits side of exhaust) some of Austin MINI, Audi RS6..........

Non of the wheel fitting B&W K03/K04 will fit the OEM IHI turbo the compressor plate is different, axe diameter of turbine is different....... You need wheel from the IHI RHF5 Family.

My idea was to go a different route using the OEM IHI turbo to take advantage of the very modern mixed flow turbine of the IHI JH5. Also because in my car with EA888.2 fitting a K03/K04 imply a lot of modification.
I hope to get Power similar to a B&W K04-064 with a plug and play turbo.
After all our engine is half of a audi RS6 4.0 TFSI so I know the compressor side is good for HP level of a K04 ( half the HP curve of a stage 2 C7 RS6) and I hope my assumption of the hot side are good and that the turbine size/shape will not become the limiting factor of that hybrid turbo.
https://www.goapr.com/products/ecu_u...si_rs6rs7.html


My hybrid has been put together and balanced by Turbozentrum in Germany after many talk with them on size of compressor and turbine.

The Compressor/turbine ratio is where it should be in between 1.05 and 1.15 ( 58 exducer compressor/ 52 Inducer Turbine= 1.11)
The trim of the compressor wheel is 57. that should in theory give a good transient boost response.
So in Theorie all is good

But all this in theory. let's see real world after my tuner does me a custom tune.
Maybe all this thinking is bullshit But I need to try to know.

[Spawne32]

I think the reason its commonly called a K03 is because the IHI JH5 specifications are either identical or damn near identical (with a fraction of a mm) to the K03 specifications. But you are right, and as time has shown, they are about as reliable as all other IHI turbos. lol Looking forward to seeing your results. ;)

[JLAllroad]

I think the reason its commonly called a K03 is because the IHI JH5 specifications are either identical or damn near identical (with a fraction of a mm) to the K03 specifications. But you are right, and as time has shown, they are about as reliable as all other IHI turbos. lol Looking forward to seeing your results. ;)

Most B8-8.5 failures are wastegate/actuator rod/bushing related, I bet the CHRA is good for well over 100k, even tuned, unfortunately most get yanked well before.




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[Mars2]

I think the reason its commonly called a K03 is because the IHI JH5 specifications are either identical or damn near identical (with a fraction of a mm) to the K03 specifications. But you are right, and as time has shown, they are about as reliable as all other IHI turbos. lol Looking forward to seeing your results. ;)

The size of BW K03 are may be very similar on the compressor side but really really different on the turbine side.

-B&W K03 11 blade radial shape 40mm exducer / 45mm inducer
-IHI JH5 EA888.2 7 blade Mixflow shape 44mm exducer/ 52 mm inducer.

The Exducer side of the JH5 is almost the size of the inducer of the K03. That is really not comparable size's of turbo.
they are almost opposite from my understanding. the limiting factor in the K03 is the Turbine vs the limiting factor in the JH5 EA888.2 is the compressor

I guess most people ( like me) had presume that the EA888.1 and EA888.2 were using turbo of same size turbine and compressor.

Now that I know that they don't. It make total sense for me that EA888.2 in stage 1 and 2 always put more HP than EA888.1
The flow is still limited by the small Compressor wheel so about same boost but with the bigger turbine wheel you can run more advance timing because of cooler EGT.
Their for always more HP on EA888.2
Before I thought it was because of the VVL

Here in France EA888.2 get always 15 to 20 CHP more than EA888.1. Same in USA when looking at APR

In Russia some guy's fited the Exhaust manifold and CHRA form JH5 EA888.2 to a G6 GTI Compressor housing mount that turbo to a G6 GTI EA888.1 and also get this kind of HP gain.

PS: I don't want to be opposite to you it's just that when I an get answer I have to try to make my point and get argumentation for that. that is what is nice with forum because you have to think deeper for argumentation because of the interaction of other's. So sorry if sound like a pain in the ass.

[Spawne32]

Most B8-8.5 failures are wastegate/actuator rod/bushing related, I bet the CHRA is good for well over 100k, even tuned, unfortunately most get yanked well before.




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The wastegate flap is still part of the IHI turbo though. Mine has 80k on it and the seals have begun leaking unfortunately.

[JLAllroad]

The wastegate flap is still part of the IHI turbo though. Mine has 80k on it and the seals have begun leaking unfortunately.

I’ve heard of a few considering going this route but once you pull a 100k turbo most don’t want to put it back in.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-0T-VW-Aud...cAAOSwSupbq5hu


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[Mars2]

I got a very helping guy to measure his IHI JH5 turbine from a AUDI C7 RS6 4.0TFSI and it's 51.5mm inducer and 44mm exducer. So very close to the IHI JH5 turbine we have that is 52mm inducer and 44mm exducer.
His number are not 100% accurate as with 9 blade turbine you don't have 2 blade 180° degree from each other. but it should be very close to ours.

The Audi RS6 C7 JH5 turbine is 9 blade radial flow vs our 7 blade Mixflow.


Capture 2019-12-30 à 17.07.08.jpgCapture 2019-12-30 à 17.06.47.jpg

[Depthcharge]

any updates? Super curious how it's performing once you get it installed and what the differences are in the tune values if anyone wants to follow your path.

[Mars2]

I had a work window to instal it last week but my tuner was not available.
Now too much work. Begening of February should be less work I hope my tuner will have some time for me then.

[BennyB8]

I had a work window to instal it last week but my tuner was not available.
Now too much work. Begening of February should be less work I hope my tuner will have some time for me then.

Sad to hear it, but really excited for it to happen!


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[Mars2]

I Have install this weekend my hybrid JH5 with OEM turbine and C7 RS6/RS7 Compressor wheel 44mm inducer/ 58mm exducer with extended tip 62mm Billet 6+6 blade.
Today I did some log.
Looking very promising already with the Stage 2 Tune I will soon get a custom tune for this hybrid I'm just waiting for new WG to arrive to crank up the Cracking pressure to 10 PSI ( now 4.25 PSI on oem WG)

It spool very similar to OEM JH5 22.5 PSI at 2800 Rpm

I did some MAF Log:

@ 3100 Rpm I have 170G/s
@ 4600 Rmp I have 234 G/s
from 5000 rpm to 6400 Rpm I have a plateau around 238-240G/s

My stage 2 tune peak at 22.5 PSI from 2800 to 4100 rpm then taper to 11.5 PSI at 6200 Rpm only 9 PSI at 6700rpm

Target on Custome tune for this turbo is to copy boost curve of Audi RS6 C7 Stage 2 so 26-27 Peak boost tapering to 21 PSI if enough fueling with 100% E85. Install 3 bar MAP
Should make some descent power.

PS: my stage 2 tune run 22° max timing at 6200 Rpm. Very agressive. Still 0° of timing pull on the 4 cylinder's with this turbo. Thank you E85

[Mars2]

One thing that I forgot to speak about is how simple the installing this turbo is compare to a K04.
Has the turbine stay OEM you don't need to remove the downpipes, exhaust manifold.....
You just need to remove water line, oil line, all the air pipe's and then unscrew the screw that tight the CHRA to the turbine housing and remove the half turbo ( CHRA plus Cold side)
That save a lot of time.

If some company was proposing such an Upgrade they could sell only half Turbo like they do for C7 4.0TFSI. This could bring the price down a lot.
https://sillyrabbitmotorsport.com/rs...o-upgrade.html

[Spawne32]

what are the power numbers? also the E85 numbers I don't really care about, i wanna see what it does on pump gas. as thats what 90% of us have to run.

[Mars2]

I will never run on Pump Gas.
My car is not flexfuel it's dedicated tune only for E85.
93 and 91 here is almost 2.5 time more expansive than E85.
So did not drive with 91 or 93 since 2008 :) :) :) only E85 when I'm in France.
When on Maui I put 91 in my very old F150

The turbine and compressor wheel size is exactly in between a IS20 from G7 GTI and a IS38 from G7 R.
So you can imagine what power/torque it should do on 91 and 93

[bb-tt]

Perry and I both push ~330 g/s with the ko4.

[Spawne32]

Perry and I both push ~330 g/s with the ko4.

yeh thats what i thought, 230 g/s is pretty much stock is it not?

[Spawne32]

I will never run on Pump Gas.
My car is not flexfuel it's dedicated tune only for E85.
93 and 91 here is almost 2.5 time more expansive than E85.
So did not drive with 91 or 93 since 2008 :) :) :) only E85 when I'm in France.
When on Maui I put 91 in my very old F150

The turbine and compressor wheel size is exactly in between a IS20 from G7 GTI and a IS38 from G7 R.
So you can imagine what power/torque it should do on 91 and 93

well you said 238-240G/s, and like bb-tt said, the k04 pushes about 330 g/s, so I would expect about 240-250whp. shane put down 285whp with the ebay k04 pushing 285 g/s but i cant say for sure how aggressive his tuning is.

[Mars2]

If you read I have 240 with Stage 2 tune so only 11 PSI at 6200 Rpm. How much will a K04 make with 11 PSI? with OEM turbo same tune I was 220
Let's see what I get with 24 PSI at 6200rpm when my tuner implement same boost curve as Audi RS6.
Next weekend I will instal my wastegate modified to 11PSI cracking pressure ( Turbozentrum forgot to do it when they worked on my turbo) and then I will get my tuner to work on it.

This what John banks reply me about boost curve of RS6.
Capture 2020-02-21 à 09.40.06.jpg

[Spawne32]

awaiting your results, i hope it looks good

[Depthcharge]

So much anticipation haha.

[Traptalk]

Excited to hear if thing is capable of holding that kind of boost into the red Line, I don’t think anyone’s k03 is making 22psi at 6200rpm

[Mars2]

Today I went to get back from friend my piggy back MAP fooler.
Instal it and logged max MAF on way back.

So with 1920 hPa ( 13.3 PSI) at 6200 rpm I got 261G/s. Sea level 16.5 °C outside temperature.

My 11 PSI wastegate should be here friday.
So Turbo out again on the weekend to instal new WG.
Hope I can get tune next week because after I leave for work in Thailand 2 week and then until 15 of May on Maui ( Hawaii)
So next window for tuning here in France is after 15 of May.

[Mars2]

My OEM Wastegate that Turbozentrum forgot to modify to get a cracking pressure of 11PSI ( 0,8bar) just got back here this morning.
this weekend I'm taking out the turbo to install it.
I hope that next week I can get it tuned. Will call my tuner for an appointment.

IMG_4922.jpgIMG_4920.jpg

[Mars2]

Just finished remove turbo to instal new wastegate and put it back on My IHI JH5 hybrid with RS7 compressor wheel.
I'm stil on stage 2 software.
I did two quick shit log with iPhone vcds to see max MAF on the way back from my friend that got a lift to do the work.
I like the 230G/s at3300 rpm
The Van is pushing really strong Remenber I'm on E85 with 21° of timing at 6200 rpm and almost 23° at top end.
I will do some better log tomorrow with timing and timing pull.

IMG_4926.pngIMG_4925.png

[Perry01]

Why waste time logging data with Stage 2 software?

[Spawne32]

Why waste time logging data with Stage 2 software?

In all fairness, "stages" really don't mean much of any thing other than how much boost the tune is commanding (and obviously minor changes to accommodate that). For example, I ran the "stage 3" F23L and K04 tunes from eurodyne on a factory K03, and all it does is run that turbo balls to the wall. You wind up going from about 18psi on stage 2 to almost pegging the map sensor. Obviously you can't get the most power out of it as it was designed for but the "stages" as they put them are merely marketing tools. What is Mars realistically going to do when he goes "stage 3", hes going to turn the boost up, lower ignition timing, and optimize the fuel requirements.

[Mars2]

In all fairness, "stages" really don't mean much of any thing other than how much boost the tune is commanding (and obviously minor changes to accommodate that). For example, I ran the "stage 3" F23L and K04 tunes from eurodyne on a factory K03, and all it does is run that turbo balls to the wall. You wind up going from about 18psi on stage 2 to almost pegging the map sensor. Obviously you can't get the most power out of it as it was designed for but the "stages" as they put them are merely marketing tools. What is Mars realistically going to do when he goes "stage 3", hes going to turn the boost up, lower ignition timing, and optimize the fuel requirements.

Yes exactly.
I logged stage 2 to see how much gain already like that to have some data.
Also my tuner asked this as he don't want me to book appointment if their is no space to gain anything on boost.
Look like their is space for more boost so I will now book my tuner.

[Mars2]

What is intresting with having log and car on dyno at each step is that you get a lot of data.
You can for exemple get accurate Crank HP/ MAF value ratio.
My car has been already 4 time on dyno

For exemple:
- on OEM tune 93 pump gas with Wagner IC no snow screen and drop in filter with a bit more than 10° of timing it did 213CHP and was at 160G/s so the ratio is 1.31
- on stage 1 with 14° of timing it did 278CHP and 206 G/s so the ratio was 1.34
- On stage 2 ( no cat and intake) with 21° of timing it did 319CHP and 226.5 G/s so a ratio of 1.405.

With that you can see that if I was still with OEM timing of 10° I would need at least 20G/s that have now to make same CHP. SO about 290G/s

Knowing that I can discuss with my tuner of what strategies we will apply. Lot of boost in the rpm that that is hard on the turbo and will increase the MAF their for maybe making my fueling struggle to deliver enough E85 or Go less boost that make the turbo work less hard in the rev and very agressive timing making MAF value lower and easier for my fueling to deliver enough E85.
It will be some compromise in between those two option.

PS: I don't believe in the 1.25 ratio MAF to CHP for every car what ever is the timing. This is something from the past with MPI car. One of the big advantage of GDI is to inject gasoline directly in the cylinder so you take full advantage of the dynamic octane increase from gas evaporation. William Knose from Delicious tuning did some testing on the GT86 that have both GDI and MPI Runing only on GDI made substantial gain compare to running with combined GDI and MPI. Allowing more timing when tuning only on GDI. When you make the math of for exemple audi B8 93 stage 2 that run around 300 CHP for about 220-225G/s you are also not at 1,25 ratio more something around 1.34-1.35

[Chatchie]

Why would you log/Dyno crank ho when you have who right there? Doesn't make sense to me.

[Mars2]

Why would you log/Dyno crank ho when you have who right there? Doesn't make sense to me.

What???

[Traptalk]

Typo on his end. He meant “whp” not “who”

He is essentially asking why you are bothering with estimated crank figures when you can measure from the wheels directly with a dyno

[Mars2]

1-Because in Europe nobody use WHP
2- Because in europe Most Dyno will not even show WHP
3- Because in Europe many tuner use MAHA dyno and MAHA has crazy algorytme for WHP. on some car it's almost 38% lower than CHP.

I don't say it's good or bad it's just something we don't use here. Like we use metric and not imperial.....

Some exemple of Maha Dyno result:

Golf MK6 35 edition same engine as MK6R ( EA113 with K04-064) 389 CHP( that is a bit high) but only 240WHP 38% Power loss on a FWD!!!!!
If use wheel HP it will be a crazy hart breaker
https://www.facebook.com/25928359424...type=3&theater

or RS3 stage 2 516 CHP ( that is normal power for a stage 2) only 359WHP again 38%
On this one the fade red line is OEM before tune you can see that it's perfect 400CHP like Audi claim
last on Maha the more power the more the pourcentage of powerless increase. At 100 hp you might have 20% and then at 700HP 42%. Very crazy algorytme.
https://www.facebook.com/25928359424...type=3&theater

If you compare CHP from Dynojet and MAHA they are quite similar. But if you compare WHP of Dynojet and MAHA then MAHA is 20 to 25% lower.

Also with CHP you can compare same engine output from different platform FWD, 4WD
My T6 tsi will always put more WHP than your audi A4 B8 with same mode. Because it's haldex and as it is so long my back wheel are always 2 feet behind the rear roller so i have to unplug the Haldex to run it on dyno on FWD.

My T6 ON the Dyno when I was going Stage 1 you can see how far are the back wheel.
Capture 2020-03-05 à 16.51.46.jpg

[Depthcharge]

Makes sense to me. I'm curious about smoothing out the dips at 3200 and 4800 RPM with the hybrid turbo set up. Can anyone with Stage III and K04 log boost pressure at those RPMs?

[Perry01]

He is essentially asking why you are bothering with estimated crank figures when you can measure from the wheels directly with a dyno

I am also perplexed as to why anyone would put their wheels on a dyno and then convert the known number (WHP) to an estimated number (CHP) and rely on the estimated figure for comparison. What’s most important is the amount of power a vehicle puts to its wheels because the wheels are what propels a vehicle forward.

There are dyno’s that attach to a motor’s flywheel (engine dyno) that will accurately measure crank horsepower, if an accurate (not an estimate) CHP is desired, then remove your engine and put it on an engine dyno.

[Spawne32]

I am also perplexed as to why anyone would put their wheels on a dyno and then convert the known number (WHP) to an estimated number (CHP) and rely on the estimated figure for comparison. What’s most important is the amount of power a vehicle puts to its wheels because the wheels are what propels a vehicle forward.

There are dyno’s that attach to a motor’s flywheel (engine dyno) that will accurately measure crank horsepower, if an accurate (not an estimate) CHP is desired, then remove your engine and put it on an engine dyno.

because it makes it sound like its making more power than it is of course ;)