LSPI prevention - Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W-40

[skis4hire]

There is a new formulation out for this oil in 2019 that has SN-PLUS certification for LSPI prevention, in addition to VW502 approval.
This is the first VW502 oil I've found that is also SN-PLUS certified. Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W-40. You can get it at NAPA and other places.

Why would anyone care about SN-PLUS?
This is a recent specification that is specifically designed to mitigate LSPI events in the engine.
I had this oil tested and it has 1300ppm of Calcium which is a pretty good value for prevening LSPI, see below.

There is a thread here about LSPI with some background - the 2.0 TFSI is certainly an at-risk engine and perhaps more so if you're tuned.
https://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...ection-Engines

The upshot is you should avoid high load (boost) at low RPM (that is, downshift before strong acceleration if you're in a mid to high gear).

It has been found that the motor oil you use actually has an impact on the probability of an LSPI event.
See: https://www.infineuminsight.com/en-g...-pre-ignition/

You want Calcium levels as close to 0.10% (1000 ppm) as possible - typical oils have values of 2000 or even 3500ppm which are bad for LSPI.
I will also be posting a used oil analysis of Mobil1 0w40 but I expect the calcium levels to be >3000ppm

[Novarider]

So how exactly does oil effect LSPI? If it's in the article I missed it. Yes it says lower calcium helps but doesn't say why or how.

[Stazi]

Two things:
1) SAE 40 weight oil seems a bit high for this engine.
2) Downshifting usually increases rpms and lowers the load, so your explanation os an LSPI precondition isn’t accurate.

LSPI occurs if your low in the rpms and then stomp the pedal, this drastically increasing the load (and boost) on the engine.


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[Theiceman]

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[adamazing]

If anyone is interested in the older VW502 formula, it's super cheap at Napa right now, $5.99 per quart. They're clearing out the old inventory for the new stuff mentioned in OP's post. I confirmed price is valid in-store as well.

https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/PCA5...=pen+550040834

[skis4hire]

So how exactly does oil effect LSPI? If it's in the article I missed it. Yes it says lower calcium helps but doesn't say why or how.

I don't believe it has been determined, the studies so far are observational only.
The calcium in the oil I believe is in the form of calcium sulphonate.
From what I've read, it is the breakdown of this molecule that forms deposits and/or particles that can catalyze the pre-ignition event.

[skis4hire]

Two things:
1) SAE 40 weight oil seems a bit high for this engine.
2) Downshifting usually increases rpms and lowers the load, so your explanation os an LSPI precondition isn’t accurate.

LSPI occurs if your low in the rpms and then stomp the pedal, this drastically increasing the load (and boost) on the engine.

for (1) - Why is that? I've heard theories on why 30 is better than 40 and vice versa.
5W40 is recommended by Audi, with 5W30 recommended as an alternative. I know that doesn't really mean much. FWIW I've always used Mobil1 0W-40.

for (2) - yes we are agreed. I'm saying downshifting keeps you out of the range where LSPI is most likely.

[Spawne32]

Two things:
1) SAE 40 weight oil seems a bit high for this engine.
2) Downshifting usually increases rpms and lowers the load, so your explanation os an LSPI precondition isn’t accurate.

LSPI occurs if your low in the rpms and then stomp the pedal, this drastically increasing the load (and boost) on the engine.


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It's not a SAE 40 weight, its a SAE 5w40 weight which is recommended for most turbocharged engines of european descent. In fact I actually find I get better gas mileage using 0w40 weight oil.

[Stazi]

5W-40 and SAE 40 have the same kinematic viscosity at 100°C, but the 5W will have a lower cold temp cranking viscosity (i.e. dynamic viscosity) than a straight 40 weight oil, and to that point 0W-40 will have an even better cold temp dynamic viscosity.

So yes, they still are both the same kinematic viscosity at 100°C which is right around the running temp of your engine (212°F), so that is why I think an SAE 40 or 5W-40 oil both seem quite high in viscosity. Now, that will help with engine protection, but will hurt fuel efficiency and rob you some power.

Sorry, I’m a lubrication engineer....I can’t help nerding out.

[Spawne32]

5W-40 and SAE 40 have the same kinematic viscosity at 100°C, but the 5W will have a lower cold temp cranking viscosity (i.e. dynamic viscosity) than a straight 40 weight oil, and to that point 0W-40 will have an even better cold temp dynamic viscosity.

So yes, they still are both the same kinematic viscosity at 100°C which is right around the running temp of your engine (212°F), so that is why I think an SAE 40 or 5W-40 oil both seem quite high in viscosity. Now, that will help with engine protection, but will hurt fuel efficiency and rob you some power.

Sorry, I’m a lubrication engineer....

Sorry I thought you were confusing it with a straight 40 weight. Does the molecular bonds that make a 5w-40 weight not cause some difference in viscosity compared to that of a straight weight SAE 40?

[audrobotic]

So yes, they still are both the same kinematic viscosity at 100°C which is right around the running temp of your engine (212°F), so that is why I think an SAE 40 or 5W-40 oil both seem quite high in viscosity. Now, that will help with engine protection, but will hurt fuel efficiency and rob you some power.

IÂ’m curious - do you think every trip you should try to get up to that 212 F temp - because I have a short drive to work during the week and the most I can get is about 180 F.

Another note - I was getting a slight knock at low rpms (typical LSPI conditions) so I started using sport mode and manual mode to avoid it. I have since gone to a different oil (was apparently something from Pennzoil from Audi dealer, now Castrol from german indy) and I think it has improved because I have not heard any knock although I have not really let the rpms drop very often when climbing hills and such.

I was also starting to burn oil with the Pennzoil, but now I have not seen any oil burning the Castrol (yet, after about 2300 miles, still full on MMI). I am wondering if the short trips were part of the oil burning, because around the time I switched to the Castrol I also activated the oil temp screen, and starting taking a slightly longer route to work (something like 2.5 miles instead of 2.0 miles) to get the oil temp higher to around 180 F.

[Stazi]

Sorry I thought you were confusing it with a straight 40 weight. Does the molecular bonds that make a 5w-40 weight not cause some difference in viscosity compared to that of a straight weight SAE 40?

Viscosity is varied through polymer length (and therefore molecular weight). Longer the polymer, higher the viscosity (thicker the oil, and higher the weight of the molecule). Also most oils are made at specific viscosities, and manufacturers then blend oils of different viscosities to get in between these. So for example 220 cSt and 100 cSt are two common viscosity grades (note, these figures have nothing to do with SAE oil “viscosity” numbers you see on engine oil bottles). So by mixing 100 and 220 in different ratios, they can make 160 cSt, 140, 180, etc.

With these varied “winter” weight oils, they mix in some lower viscosity oil to a higher viscosity oil and also add viscosity modifiers to try and improve the VI (viscosity index) of an oil. The higher the index the more constant a viscosity stays across the temp range, typically measured from 40°C to 100°C. Also ZDDP and other AW (antiwear) additives are used to reduce where at low seeds and startup.

The main issue with all this is that mineral oil only has a upper service temp of 100°C max and PAO (poly alpha olefin, aka “synthetic” oil) only bumps the upper operating temp to 120-140°C. What these upper temps mean is that when tested they will be able to reach a certain amount of hours with an F10 failure rate when plotted on a Weibull slope. To put it simply, when you run at the max temp of an oil it breaks down FAST! Hence, mineral oil sucks. PAO is better - yes that extra 30°C of upper headroom will quadruple the oil life (tested and confirmed).

That’s why with mineral oil’s are used to say at 3000 miles oil change was required an hour with synthetics you can typically say 10 to 12,000 miles, although lawyer will start breaking down immediately and as the oil begins to oxidize it will oxidize the smaller Palma chains first and so what you see is that your viscosity continues to rise and rise and the oil gets thicker and has a lot of impurities carbon and varnish that deposit all over the engine.

There are other oils like esters, ethers, PAG, and PFPE but these have other issues and also COST way more.




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[Spawne32]

Of your expert opinion, what brands do you recommend? I have always stuck with shell rotella T6 5w40 however recently switched to castrol edge 0w40.

[aschmi07]

IÂ’m curious - do you think every trip you should try to get up to that 212 F temp - because I have a short drive to work during the week and the most I can get is about 180 F.

Another note - I was getting a slight knock at low rpms (typical LSPI conditions) so I started using sport mode and manual mode to avoid it. I have since gone to a different oil (was apparently something from Pennzoil from Audi dealer, now Castrol from german indy) and I think it has improved because I have not heard any knock although I have not really let the rpms drop very often when climbing hills and such.

I was also starting to burn oil with the Pennzoil, but now I have not seen any oil burning the Castrol (yet, after about 2300 miles, still full on MMI). I am wondering if the short trips were part of the oil burning, because around the time I switched to the Castrol I also activated the oil temp screen, and starting taking a slightly longer route to work (something like 2.5 miles instead of 2.0 miles) to get the oil temp higher to around 180 F.

Curious about this too. My drive is about a mile... 5k changes on the dot.

[Stazi]

Lower engine temp is fine. 180°F will extend oil life over 210°F by a factor of 2. Remember, heat is an oils enemy.

I use Castrol 5W-30, which is fine for northern climates. Those guys in the south can probably use 5W-40.

I would NOT go down to 0W-xx because the viscosity at post start up temperatures is half! This is where the most damage occurs, conversely, don’t jump up to 10W as now the cold temp viscosity are doubled, and at start up the pumping effort is too high and you could be inducing excessive wear at startup.

You want the oil to get through the engine ASAP at startup, but don’t want it too thin or too thick. It’s a tricky balancing act.

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[ps2cho]

Lower engine temp is fine. 180°F will extend oil life over 210°F by a factor of 2. Remember, heat is an oils enemy.

I use Castrol 5W-30, which is fine for northern climates. Those guys in the south can probably use 5W-40.

I would NOT go down to 0W-xx because the viscosity at post start up temperatures is half! This is where the most damage occurs, conversely, don’t jump up to 10W as now the cold temp viscosity are doubled, and at start up the pumping effort is too high and you could be inducing excessive wear at startup.

You want the oil to get through the engine ASAP at startup, but don’t want it too thin or too thick. It’s a tricky balancing act.

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What about a 0w-40 option?
My MB’s use 0-40 and in Arizona it would be nice to use just one oil for all our vehicles. I know 5-40 would work in all, but I’m curious on your opinion if 0-40 vs 5-40 in warm southern climates?

Also remember folks MB spec is higher than VW spec but MB meets VW as well so should theoretically be higher quality. Ie Mobil1 0-40.

[Stazi]

5w-40 for hotter climates. 0w-40 is too thin especially in warm weather.


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[Spawne32]

Lower engine temp is fine. 180°F will extend oil life over 210°F by a factor of 2. Remember, heat is an oils enemy.

I use Castrol 5W-30, which is fine for northern climates. Those guys in the south can probably use 5W-40.

I would NOT go down to 0W-xx because the viscosity at post start up temperatures is half! This is where the most damage occurs, conversely, don’t jump up to 10W as now the cold temp viscosity are doubled, and at start up the pumping effort is too high and you could be inducing excessive wear at startup.

You want the oil to get through the engine ASAP at startup, but don’t want it too thin or too thick. It’s a tricky balancing act.

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Ill give the pennzoil ultra platinum 5w30 a whirl next time around since its 19.99 on amazon for 5 quarts. About the same price I get the rotella T6 5w40 for. I am curious to see if it results in more oil consumption or not. Right now I can go almost a full oil change without needing anymore than a quart, which is about 5000 miles.

[Novarider]

What Castrol 5W-30 oil meets the VW spec? Last time I changed my oil I was going to try Castrol but couldn't find any that said it met VW standard.

[jfo]

5w-40 for hotter climates. 0w-40 is too thin especially in warm weather.


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The values below of typical oil seem to contradict this. I don't know which brand this data represents and can't confirm it's accuracy without further research. But it appears to show that 0w-40 is thicker than 5w-30, when both cold and hot. Is this correct?

cSt @ cold 40*C (104*F) / cSt @ hot 100*C (212*F)

0W20 = 44.9 / 8.5, or 5.3 times thicker when cold

0W30 = 53.8 / 9.6, or 5.6 times thicker when cold

0W40 = 79.9 / 14.3, or 5.6 times thicker when cold
-----
5W20 = 51.6 / 9.0, or 5.7 times thicker when cold

5W30 = 62.4 / 10.8, or 5.8 times thicker when cold

5W40 = 87.2 / 14.7, or 5.9 times thicker when cold


Edit: I see that you were comparing 5w-40, not 5w-30.

[adamazing]

What Castrol 5W-30 oil meets the VW spec? Last time I changed my oil I was going to try Castrol but couldn't find any that said it met VW standard.

Castrol Edge Syntec

[Nano909]

Castrol Syntec 0-40 FTW

[Novarider]

Castrol Edge Syntec

I checked Castrol website and the regular 5W-30 in the black bottle does not say VW 502 but 5W-30 A3/B4 in the gold bottle does. The 0W-30 and 0W-40 in the black bottles meet VW 502. Also 5W-40 in the black bottle says VW 502.

[skis4hire]

Stazi thanks for the oil education here.
When I was looking for SN-PLUS oils, I noticed that most of them do not have any Euro certification including VW502, and are spec'd as ACEA A1/B1.
The VW502 all seem to be ACEA A3/B4 which I understand have a higher TBN spec, but none of these are API SN-PLUS.

Do you have any insight on why that is?

For example, Castrol has these:
The regular "Castrol EDGE 5w30" is SN-PLUS but does not have any Euro certifications and is ACEA A1/B1 only.
The "Castrol EDGE 5W30 A3/B4" is ACEA A3/B4 and has the Euro certifications, but is not SN PLUS

The only exception I found is the Pennzoil Euro 5W-40 which is VW502 and SN-PLUS.

I also see ACEA C3 oils with VW502 spec which I find confusing because C3 seems to have a lower TBN requirement.

[clettngx]

How is this oil treating your A4?

[clettngx]

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How is this treating your A4 iceman?

[Theiceman]

Meh... its just oil....

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[audrobotic]

Meh... its just oil....

And that is the best endorsement an oil can get! I push the pedal and the car goes!

[Theiceman]

Lol

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