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  1. #1
    Active Member Four Rings EvolutionArmory's Avatar
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    3 inch downpipe discussion. Is it worth it?

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    So I currently have a 3 inch test pipe connected to the Billy Boat cat back with a 2.5 inch downpipe and I’m wondering if upgrading to a 3 inch downpipe would be worthwhile.

    I think the general consensus will be no, a 2.5 inch downpipe should be enough for a K04 but one part of my logs makes me think 2.5 might be too restrictive, my N75 logs.

    Attachment 139188

    In this graph you can see a sharp climb in N75 duty cycle at 6500. This could be caused by a few things and I wonder if hitting an exhaust restriction at that high RPM range is just making the ECU throw a ton of boost to help meet demand caused by having a bottle neck in pipe diameter.

    I was thinking of buying the ECS cat and downpipe and selling the cat because all I need is the 3 inch downpipe. I would then buy some 3 inch 316 SS pipe and neck that down to my Billy Boat piping as far away from the turbo as possible, right at the resonator. So it would be 3 inches from the turbo right down to the very front of the resonator, a few feet from the turbo.

    What do you think? Is a 3 inch downpipe beneficial on a stage 2 or K04 B7?
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  2. #2
    Active Member Four Rings EvolutionArmory's Avatar
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    Another idea I think might help is the addition of heat wrap on my test pipe and a turbo blanket on the turbo and manifold. Keeping the heat in will allow the exhaust gas to flow better through the 2.5 inch pipe and my N75 duty spike should go down in theory. The whole turbo will flow more efficiently in theory.
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    APR tune [email protected]

    Jackal tune 10.68@129

    stock blower, stock cats, stock suspension.

  3. #3
    Veteran Member Three Rings bwdysart's Avatar
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    I don’t have the knowledge to comment on whether it will help, but I’m interested in a high flow cat for stage 2, I would be willing to buy it off you.


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  4. #4
    Active Member Four Rings EvolutionArmory's Avatar
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    I’m going to check with ECS and see if they have any interest in selling their 3 inch downpipe by itself. If they don’t then I’ll buy the whole package and we can work something out with the cat.
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    APR tune [email protected]

    Jackal tune 10.68@129

    stock blower, stock cats, stock suspension.

  5. #5
    Active Member Two Rings
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    Let us know about the downpipe. I asked when it first came out and didn't get an answer.

    I'm working on the same thing.

  6. #6
    Active Member Four Rings EvolutionArmory's Avatar
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    Well the downpipe should bring the N75 spike down if the 2.5 pipe is a restriction. If it’s not, the turbo is out of its efficiency range, which it shouldn’t be as other cars have much higher MAF readings. BUT...my turbo isn’t a K04-064 and who knows what JHM put in there and call it a K04 😀

    I just ordered a PTP Lava Blanket. We’ll see what that does. Then I’ll wrap the test pipe. The downpipe upgrade will be last.
    2016 S4 premium plus, Glacier White Metallic, black optics, carbon trim, magma interior. APR dual pulley Ultracharger and TCU, APR intake, Merc HX, CWA100, APR A01 wheels, ECS rotors, Michelin PS4S, 034 trans mount, AEM 400cc’s meth

    APR tune [email protected]

    Jackal tune 10.68@129

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  7. #7
    Veteran Member Four Rings vce1232000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EvolutionArmory View Post
    I just ordered a PTP Lava Blanket. We’ll see what that does.
    Want to a blanket also. Let me your results when you do
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  8. #8
    Active Member Four Rings EvolutionArmory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vce1232000 View Post
    Want to a blanket also. Let me your results when you do
    I will. I’m doing logs after each addition.
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    APR tune [email protected]

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  9. #9
    Active Member Four Rings EvolutionArmory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bwdysart View Post
    I don’t have the knowledge to comment on whether it will help, but I’m interested in a high flow cat for stage 2, I would be willing to buy it off you.


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    I sent you a PM. I just ordered the 3 inch cat and downpipe kit. Let me know how you want to arrange payment for the cat.


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    APR tune [email protected]

    Jackal tune 10.68@129

    stock blower, stock cats, stock suspension.

  10. #10
    Veteran Member Four Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by EvolutionArmory View Post
    I sent you a PM. I just ordered the 3 inch cat and downpipe kit. Let me know how you want to arrange payment for the cat.


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    Selling a test pipe? If he doesn't buy I may be interested.
    Audi A4 Avant Quattro 400 CHP build thread.

  11. #11
    Active Member Four Rings EvolutionArmory's Avatar
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    No, selling a 3 inch cat. I run a test pipe. He’s got first dibs on it since he asked already.
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    APR tune [email protected]

    Jackal tune 10.68@129

    stock blower, stock cats, stock suspension.

  12. #12
    Active Member Four Rings EvolutionArmory's Avatar
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    I’ll also have my Billy Boat 2.5 inch downpipe for sale once I swap to the 3 inch. PM me if interested.
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    APR tune [email protected]

    Jackal tune 10.68@129

    stock blower, stock cats, stock suspension.

  13. #13
    Veteran Member Four Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by EvolutionArmory View Post
    No, selling a 3 inch cat. I run a test pipe. He’s got first dibs on it since he asked already.
    I see. Looking to just go test pipe if the CTS Turbo HFC fails emissions this month.
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  14. #14
    Active Member Four Rings EvolutionArmory's Avatar
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    Downpipe is now ceramic coated, I bought a stainless 3 inch 4 foot center section today for 25 bucks, ordered a 3 inch clamp and a 3-2.5 neck down for the center section that will be welded to the center pipe. I’ll neck it down right before the resonator which will give me several feet of 3 inch exhaust away from the turbo. It should be far enough from the turbo to not be a restriction. I should have it installed next week.

    Attachment 140979


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    APR tune [email protected]

    Jackal tune 10.68@129

    stock blower, stock cats, stock suspension.

  15. #15
    Active Member Four Rings EvolutionArmory's Avatar
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    So Friday is the day. My plan it to run 3 inches from the turbo and reduce it right before the resonator so I have several feet of 3 inch pipe. I bought 4 feet of 3 inch pipe and welded the reducer to one end. I’ll clamp the pipe to the downpipe and cut my 2.5 inch pipe about 4 inches from the resonator. This should eliminate any possible restrictions at WOT. I also bought a second reducer in case the 3 inch center section has fitting issues and I’ll only run 3 inches to right before the transmission support.

    Attachment 141829


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    APR tune [email protected]

    Jackal tune 10.68@129

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  16. #16
    Established Member Two Rings
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    If you guys are selling the ECS high flow cat and a used downpipe that will work with it, let me know :) I'm ok going from 3" to 2.5" dp :)

  17. #17
    Active Member Four Rings EvolutionArmory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gotrek View Post
    If you guys are selling the ECS high flow cat and a used downpipe that will work with it, let me know :) I'm ok going from 3" to 2.5" dp :)
    The cat was sold from the second I bought it. Sorry.

    I will probably have a Billy Boat downpipe for sale later today though.
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    APR tune [email protected]

    Jackal tune 10.68@129

    stock blower, stock cats, stock suspension.

  18. #18
    Established Member Two Rings
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    Let me know :)

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  19. #19
    Active Member Four Rings EvolutionArmory's Avatar
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    Some disappointing news. So the ECS 3 inch downpipe only works with their cat. I went to bolt it up to my test pipe and the downpipe flange bolt pattern is way different. Won’t work.

    Hopefully the guy who bought the cat wants this downpipe too. 😭
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    APR tune [email protected]

    Jackal tune 10.68@129

    stock blower, stock cats, stock suspension.

  20. #20
    Established Member Two Rings
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    Change the flange on it. They are all pretty available and shouldnt cost more then 20$ to get it welded on... Unless they did something really custom.. post a picture. I might be interested if hes not. Want to see it though.

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  21. #21
    Active Member Four Rings EvolutionArmory's Avatar
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    V band clamping it would be an option if I could afford to have the car down for a few days to have the test pipe and downpipe flanges removed and changed. Gotta figure out how far I want to take this. I don’t like throwing too much money at a wrong decision trying to make it work right.
    2016 S4 premium plus, Glacier White Metallic, black optics, carbon trim, magma interior. APR dual pulley Ultracharger and TCU, APR intake, Merc HX, CWA100, APR A01 wheels, ECS rotors, Michelin PS4S, 034 trans mount, AEM 400cc’s meth

    APR tune [email protected]

    Jackal tune 10.68@129

    stock blower, stock cats, stock suspension.

  22. #22
    Active Member Four Rings EvolutionArmory's Avatar
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    Attachment 142068
    Attachment 142069


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    APR tune [email protected]

    Jackal tune 10.68@129

    stock blower, stock cats, stock suspension.

  23. #23
    Established Member Two Rings
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    Pretty :) whomever welded that was good.

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  24. #24
    Veteran Member Four Rings texasboy21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gotrek View Post
    Pretty :) whomever welded that was good.

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  25. #25
    Veteran Member Four Rings vvenom800tt's Avatar
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    Sawzall?

    I went from stock exhaust to a 3" turbo back so i cant quite say if its worth it over 2.5".

    Just that mine is too loud and i need an extra resonator.
    Quote Originally Posted by EvolutionArmory View Post
    V band clamping it would be an option if I could afford to have the car down for a few days to have the test pipe and downpipe flanges removed and changed. Gotta figure out how far I want to take this. I don’t like throwing too much money at a wrong decision trying to make it work right.
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  26. #26
    Veteran Member Three Rings bwdysart's Avatar
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    Is there a way for me to take the log you were going to take, or would switching the stock cat for HFC at the same time invalidate the results?

    Maybe we could find someone with a 2.5” dp and a high flow cat to compare against, even though It’s not perfect we could probably gain some insight.


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  27. #27
    Active Member Four Rings EvolutionArmory's Avatar
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    Comparing logs against someone else won’t tell you much unless they’re running a similar turbo, set up the same way with similar supporting mods and the same software. You’re on a K03 with stock cat and exhaust so a 2.5 kit would be more than enough.

    The point of the logs I wanted to take was to see if a 2.5 system after the cat was a restriction on something bigger than stock since the standard size for aftermarket performance exhausts for our cars is 2.5. I would have done a log with the 2.5 downpipe and then one with the 3 inch to see if N75 duty got more efficient at high RPM’s and if MAF values increased. If you had a JHM K04 running the same tune as me I’d be interested in that data.

    On your own car you’ll absolutely see some changes but you’re going from stock size to much bigger. Going from stock to 3 inch for you will be as big as you’ll ever need on a K03. K04 is at the point where 2.5 is most likely big enough too but might benefit from bigger.
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  28. #28
    Stage 2 Banner Advertiser Four Rings Jake@JHM's Avatar
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    For turbo applications the larger the exhaust the better it will be (for the most part). If you were to install an electric cutout after the test pipe and were to dyno back to back with it opened/closed you would see a decent spike in torque.

    Rule of thumb:

    Turbos - Getting exhaust out is key (larger exhaust)
    Superchargers - Getting air in is key (larger throttle bodies and intakes)

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  29. #29
    Active Member Four Rings EvolutionArmory's Avatar
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    No doubt. Big enough to the point of diminishing returns. And I agree with you totally that a turbo needs to push more air out before it can get more air in.

    The question is, does 2.5 cut it once you go above K03 power and 3 inch is the diminishing return on a turbo that small? I think 2.5 will flow K03 airflow just fine but not be able to handle upper RPM airflow as efficiently as it should on a K04 or bigger.

    I think my car would benefit from a 3 inch system. Does my spike in N75 duty at 6500 support my theory in your opinion Jake?
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    APR tune [email protected]

    Jackal tune 10.68@129

    stock blower, stock cats, stock suspension.

  30. #30
    Stage 2 Banner Advertiser Four Rings Jake@JHM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EvolutionArmory View Post
    No doubt. Big enough to the point of diminishing returns. And I agree with you totally that a turbo needs to push more air out before it can get more air in.

    The question is, does 2.5 cut it once you go above K03 power and 3 inch is the diminishing return on a turbo that small? I think 2.5 will flow K03 airflow just fine but not be able to handle upper RPM airflow as efficiently as it should on a K04 or bigger.

    I think my car would benefit from a 3 inch system. Does my spike in N75 duty at 6500 support my theory in your opinion Jake?
    Yes for optimal turbo performance you want an exhaust big enough to where it has the same restriction as no exhaust. For most people this unrealistic as for as noise and how big of pipe you can fit where. People oftentimes get confused because they hear people say that your engine needs back pressure from the exhaust or you lose performance which is somewhat true, but not at all for turbo cars because the engine gets all the back pressure it needs AT the turbo, which is why anything after the turbo needs to get out as fast as possible, which is where larger exhaust comes into play.

    Your car would definitely benefit from a 3" over 2.5" however most of torque gains to be had will be down low, as the turbo can ramp up much faster and harder without the restriction. If I remember correctly, Derek picked up 25wtq when using his electric cutout at the DP.

    The spike in the n75 duty is because of the high RPM. The higher the RPM of the engine, the more CFM the engine is flowing, thus the turbo is needing the wastegate fully shut in order to maintain the requested boost. So by going to a larger exhaust, you may actually see the n75 spike, even more, do to the efficiency of the larger exhaust. Not that its a bad thing, as long as the software and turbo are working together to meet requested vs actual.

    The flowing of the exhaust is the reason we did the Downpipe-Y. A lot of aftermarket downpipes had used the stock sized flange, with a large pipe on either side effectively making it a cork. We made flanges with a true 3" ID and included gaskets with a larger 3" ID so that there was no cork. The downpipe then splits into dual 2.5" when used with an S4 system for most of the length of the exhaust providing as much exhaust flow as you reasonably can. We knew we could use the S4 2.5" systems (like Fast Intentions) because we had already made much more power using that same system on the S4.

    The dual 2.5" from the S4 is equivalent to a single pipe that is just over 3.5"

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  31. #31
    Veteran Member Four Rings oVeRdOsE's Avatar
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    I always was under impression for max raw power, the exhaust need to be free flow as possible, no restriction by air friction.
    At least this is what I've learned in fluid mechanics.

    However, back pressure is needed depending of the setup management ( ecu programming, sensor, valves, etc) Which here we probably need, since for most people this is a road car, designed with an exhaust, .


    And about the blanket, was is the cons having one? Does the extra heat around the blanket is over what the OEM turbo can handle ?

  32. #32
    Active Member Four Rings EvolutionArmory's Avatar
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    I didn’t install the blanket yet. It is REAL tight in there and the turbo would need to come out to be able to install it. No time for that right now. As far as the extra heat goes, the housing can take it. The turbo is water cooled and a hot exhaust housing is good for performance. The heat staying in the turbo will make it spool faster and may give you some top end efficiency. Ever notice how a 2nd or 3rd dyno pull usually makes more power than the first when the housing is hot and the intercooler isn’t heat soaked yet? Keeping the heat in is good. Better flow.

    And you don’t want any back pressure post exhaust housing. None.
    2016 S4 premium plus, Glacier White Metallic, black optics, carbon trim, magma interior. APR dual pulley Ultracharger and TCU, APR intake, Merc HX, CWA100, APR A01 wheels, ECS rotors, Michelin PS4S, 034 trans mount, AEM 400cc’s meth

    APR tune [email protected]

    Jackal tune 10.68@129

    stock blower, stock cats, stock suspension.

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