2.0 TFSI timing nightmare!

[BoostedGogre]

Hi guys, afrer replacement of timing belt and timing chain i have some problems.
I replace timing belt, all pulleys, timing chain and hydraulic tensioner, camshaft adjuster also because old one was broken.
Timing belt is on all markings, i rotate crankshaft manually several times an it's ok. I use plate to lock camshafts, and install timing chain, again couple manual rotations, camshafts looks symmetrical. When i start engine sounds very noisy, in VCDS no errors, but in group 93 first was -6 and then drop to -5 and don't change anymore. I read the normal value in block 93 must be 0 ore +-3?
Any suggestion where is the problem? Timing belt, timing chain or something else?

[macantley]

if the old belt broke, then 95% chance you have bent valves, have you already done a compression check on the engine? I've yet to see a broken belt NOT bend valves, The only luck i've seen is when a timing chain in the back of the head broke while the car was idling did not bend any valves.

[BoostedGogre]

if the old belt broke, then 95% chance you have bent valves, have you already done a compression check on the engine? I've yet to see a broken belt NOT bend valves, The only luck i've seen is when a timing chain in the back of the head broke while the car was idling did not bend any valves.

Car work normally before belt change, it's time to change belt and i decide to change chain, then i noticed problem with old cam adjuster and replace it. But car work fine and smooth, how this is possible with broken cam adjuster i have no idea!
I forgot to run diagnostics before, and i don't know what value has block 93.

[Theiceman]

I'd bet your cam chain timing is wrong.

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[SlvrArrw]

I agree, always return to the last thing you worked on. You may need to re-install everything.

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[BoostedGogre]

Tanks boys, for now prime suspect is cam chain timing. I will re-check everything again.

[Theiceman]

Tanks boys, for now prime suspect is cam chain timing. I will re-check everything again.

Remember it is easy to get wrong when using Audi tool. Count the links to be sure.


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[BoostedGogre]

Remember it is easy to get wrong when using Audi tool. Count the links to be sure.

This tool is absolute crap! Any clue where is the mark and how many links must be?

[Theiceman]

This tool is absolute crap! Any clue where is the mark and how many links must be?

yes .. look for the thread .. " that's all she wrote" on this forum. i started it so you can search on my user name too.

scan through the first few pages , you will get to exactly how to time it and set it up ( post 57 ) . including some great pics on what to look for.

[BoostedGogre]

yes .. look for the thread .. " that's all she wrote" on this forum. i started it so you can search on my user name too.

scan through the first few pages , you will get to exactly how to time it and set it up ( post 57 ) . including some great pics on what to look for.

Thanks man!

[Theiceman]

Good luck

Sent from my SM-G973W using Audizine mobile app

[BoostedGogre]

Little update: Today start all over again and i found tensioning roller mark is waaay from correct position, how this happened i no idea!
Check timing chain, absolutely perfect, i put ex cam on mark and two camshafts are perfectly symmetrical, to be sure i use calliper to measure how high are two lobes on each camshaft - 45.5mm.
Then i check chain links like Theiceman (tanks again), count 20 links between two marks and timing chain is out of suspicion.
Then start with timing belt, i try 10 times but in any possition that tiny mark on camshaft wheel is litlle away from arrow?
This is my best result, on top of the tooth?

[IMG][/IMG]

It's ok? Or i try till that tiny notch is perfectly align to arrow?

[EvolutionArmory]

You don’t align the tooth to the arrow. You align the tiny line with the arrow.

I put a razor blade on the arrow to make sure it lines up with that tiny line. Being careful with the razor blade of course 🤣

I also mark a crank gear tooth with white out and mark it to the engine. This way I have 2 marks to make sure the crank is at TDC instead of just using the crank pulley and cover as timing marks.

Your cam gear appears to be set correctly.

[BoostedGogre]

You don’t align the tooth to the arrow. You align the tiny line with the arrow.

I put a razor blade on the arrow to make sure it lines up with that tiny line. Being careful with the razor blade of course 🤣

I also mark a crank gear tooth with white out and mark it to the engine. This way I have 2 marks to make sure the crank is at TDC instead of just using the crank pulley and cover as timing marks.

Your cam gear appears to be set correctly.

Yes my goal is that tiny line, but it absolutely impossible to align that line to the arrow? My best result is top of the tooth. Or i'm make big mistake somewere, or this marks are crap?
Put a new belt like ELSA says, but no way that line to aligh to arrow, then remove new belt and put back old one same result.

[aviator79]

Remember it is easy to get wrong when using Audi tool. Count the links to be sure.


Sent from my SM-G973W using Audizine mobile app

I am not sure I agree with this. 19 teeth on cam gears so to be off would be nearly 19* off if one tooth off and only way tool would still fit if that far off would be to have an obvious excess of chain slack below tensioner. Tool is meant to fit in loose. If tool is tight then you have an issue.

Counting teeth slots is definitely a good thing to do, but if lobes aligned, no slack below tensioner and slots aligned I don't think it would be easy to get wrong. I bring this up as I worry I got it wrong but I just do not see how I could have. And if was 19* off car should run like shit. I have low compression but think thats cause my valves leak. Going to check cam position with VCDS but IDK if will tell me anything...

EDIT,
I may be wrong on this as I think I got my timing wrong. IDK how but clearly counting teeth slots is the only way to be sure.

[GeeB7]

To be fair, I just did my chain and the best way to count is the same way the guy from astral auto repairs on youtube does it, be careful though, make sure the orientation of the chain is exactly the same, it's easy to get confused.

My money is on the chain being 1 tooth out on the intake camshaft.
I know you re-checked it but be aware, they shouldn't be exactly symmetrical, that's a myth.

The intake camshaft should be a touch higher than exhaust, trust me.
If they appear exactly symmetrical, chances are you have the intake camshaft retarded by one tooth.

Once the chain tensions with hydraulic pressure, THEN it will become symmetrical.

I hate to be that guy but ya need to check it again bruh.

[BoostedGogre]

That means a lot of guys are in huge huge mistake! Symmetry of cam lobes is main marker of chain adjustment, if that is wrong many cars are with wrong timing!
Yesterday i reassemble my car, intake cam is still -4 in group 93, i make a little test run, engine work fine and smooth, easy make 200km/h, buuuut car is park on a slope and when I release handbrake on a first gear it's start to move. That means low compression, but before car stays on that hill without problem, so may be you are wright and when cam lobes are symmetrical some valves are slightly open and engine lost compression!?!?!

[GeeB7]

Perhaps, boosted, sounds plausible and I do hate to be seen to say many people have it wrong, I'm only going on information i found when I did some research to do my own.

The difference is minimal, it's a very very slight deviation from symmetrical, not a lot.

To most it probably appears exactly symmetrical and they get it right as a result but the information I found was pretty legit and I have no issues that way. I'm not an expert, take what I say with a pinch of salt.

Just think it's worth mentioning if it's possibly the case.

I'd say check out the astral videos on timing chain job, I decided to follow his guidance on counting the links to get it spot on.

The issues I'm having with my car missing some boost are not related, they were there before I did the chain and tensioner. The fault code for high pressure (upper limit exceeded) went away after I did it so I know I got it right. Being off one tooth is the only known cause for that code that I could find.

Again, I'm no expert but it sounds like a tooth out. Maybe just take cover off and count using his video as a guide.
You probably got it right and it's some other detail being difficult, these cars have a knack for that lol.

[BoostedGogre]

Perhaps, boosted, sounds plausible and I do hate to be seen to say many people have it wrong, I'm only going on information i found when I did some research to do my own.

The difference is minimal, it's a very very slight deviation from symmetrical, not a lot.

To most it probably appears exactly symmetrical and they get it right as a result but the information I found was pretty legit and I have no issues that way. I'm not an expert, take what I say with a pinch of salt.

Just think it's worth mentioning if it's possibly the case.

I'd say check out the astral videos on timing chain job, I decided to follow his guidance on counting the links to get it spot on.

The issues I'm having with my car missing some boost are not related, they were there before I did the chain and tensioner. The fault code for high pressure (upper limit exceeded) went away after I did it so I know I got it right. Being off one tooth is the only known cause for that code that I could find.

Again, I'm no expert but it sounds like a tooth out. Maybe just take cover off and count using his video as a guide.
You probably got it right and it's some other detail being difficult, these cars have a knack for that lol.

AUDI say everything between +-7 is ok, now my car is on -4, so if i don't find 10000% sure and correct position of the chain i don't touch it.
Guy from astral video says 19 tooth, if follow ELSA and symmetrical lobes rule is 20 tooth between marks?!?!? Where is the truth??? I hope together we find out!
Good news is obviously the engine tolerate this experiments without bending valves!
You say lobe of intake cam must be higher, but lobes are symmetrical when between marks are 20 tooth, if count 19 intake cam will rotate 1 tooth counterclockwise so his lobe will drop down not up!
So i hope somebody know with 1000% sure and share with us exact position of this piece of ......???

[BoostedGogre]

Aaand 10 minutes later mystery solved! I count links on guy from astral auto video, he count 19 links and put a blue mark but if we count carefuly he use a 20-th link absolutely exact like pictures of Theiceman share!
So for now one thing is sure, chain has a inner and outer links, one mark must be on inner link other on a outer!

[aviator79]

I am not sure I agree with this. 19 teeth on cam gears so to be off would be nearly 19* off if one tooth off and only way tool would still fit if that far off would be to have an obvious excess of chain slack below tensioner. Tool is meant to fit in loose. If tool is tight then you have an issue.

Counting teeth slots is definitely a good thing to do, but if lobes aligned, no slack below tensioner and slots aligned I don't think it would be easy to get wrong. I bring this up as I worry I got it wrong but I just do not see how I could have. And if was 19* off car should run like shit. I have low compression but think thats cause my valves leak. Going to check cam position with VCDS but IDK if will tell me anything...

So after posting this and finishing putting car back together, I can only hope that I got timing chain installed wrong.
The low compression was a clear indication I had issues but thought was because I never got valves to seal perfectly. Thou I bet compression is closer to 170ish due to that vs the 130s I am getting. After drove car it was clear the timing is off. Also got a cam position CEL.

When I did mine I was going off this picture:
https://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...1#post12610356
But could not see marks on chain gears to count from anyways.

Trying to find a polydrive m10 so I can fix today as the one I bought was for head bolts is way to long. Thinking I am just going to cut it.

[Theiceman]

I am not sure I agree with this. 19 teeth on cam gears so to be off would be nearly 19* off if one tooth off and only way tool would still fit if that far off would be to have an obvious excess of chain slack below tensioner. Tool is meant to fit in loose. If tool is tight then you have an issue.

Counting teeth slots is definitely a good thing to do, but if lobes aligned, no slack below tensioner and slots aligned I don't think it would be easy to get wrong. I bring this up as I worry I got it wrong but I just do not see how I could have. And if was 19* off car should run like shit. I have low compression but think thats cause my valves leak. Going to check cam position with VCDS but IDK if will tell me anything...

EDIT,
I may be wrong on this as I think I got my timing wrong. IDK how but clearly counting teeth slots is the only way to be sure.

lol i guess you agree now then ? :)

[Theiceman]

So after posting this and finishing putting car back together, I can only hope that I got timing chain installed wrong.
The low compression was a clear indication I had issues but thought was because I never got valves to seal perfectly. Thou I bet compression is closer to 170ish due to that vs the 130s I am getting. After drove car it was clear the timing is off. Also got a cam position CEL.

When I did mine I was going off this picture:
https://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...1#post12610356
But could not see marks on chain gears to count from anyways.

Trying to find a polydrive m10 so I can fix today as the one I bought was for head bolts is way to long. Thinking I am just going to cut it.

that pic is just plane wrong that you refereed to , that is your problem ... go to the thread reference further up for pictures of what you are looking for ..

there is a line on the cam adjuster on the exhaust cam and a dot on the tooth of the intake cam .. this is where slots 1 and 20 go.

if you cant get it right after using post 67 and 68 in that thread then you should probably take a break , as it shows everything you need. if you did that and it still doesnt work something else is wrong.

[aviator79]

Timing chain looks to be off but cant see the marks with chain on. So going to remove it.
Cam lobes are off, provably 13* so clearly chain off a tooth. Sort of a relief. Explains compression. Wish could check with chain on but just to tight to see marks.

Cutting tool then hopefully removing adjuster bolt.

[medrads2020]

Timing chain looks to be off but cant see the marks with chain on. So going to remove it.
Cam lobes are off, provably 13* so clearly chain off a tooth. Sort of a relief. Explains compression. Wish could check with chain on but just to tight to see marks.

Cutting tool then hopefully removing adjuster bolt.

Here is a DIY for the timing chain I posted earlier this year. Use steps 48-55 as a guide for setting the correct timing.

[Theiceman]

Timing chain looks to be off but cant see the marks with chain on. So going to remove it.
Cam lobes are off, provably 13* so clearly chain off a tooth. Sort of a relief. Explains compression. Wish could check with chain on but just to tight to see marks.

Cutting tool then hopefully removing adjuster bolt.

you wont be so relieved if you bent a valve :) ... but i think you will be fine ...

the reason i don't count links as oppose to spaces , is because a sprocket tooth does not sit on a "link" it sits on the spaces between, i realize it is semantics but in this case i think it is important. , and this removes all confusion.

[aviator79]

you wont be so relieved if you bent a valve :) ... but i think you will be fine ...

the reason i don't count links as oppose to spaces , is because a sprocket tooth does not sit on a "link" it sits on the spaces between, i realize it is semantics but in this case i think it is important. , and this removes all confusion.

Luckily 1 tooth off still keeps valves clear of pistons. I only wish had seen your thread before installing head. Would have saved me some time.