Performance exhaust manifolds 4.0TT

[ZTM pearl]

[ATTACH=https://www.audizine.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=132819&d=1563949463&th umb=1&stc=1https://www.audizine.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=132818&d=1563949412&th umb=1&stc=1CONFIG]132818[/ATTACH]billet exhaust 1.jpg

Has anyone had any experience with the Milletech or TTE Global performance exhaust headers for the 4.0TT? or are there any other headers? Can't find anything on forum search. The TTEs list for 2570 euro ($2866 US) and the Milletech for 2900 Euro ($3231 USD). I have seen 100Hp stage 2 gains quoted. Anyone bought them, or seen dyno figures, or flow rates, or heard stories? Is anyone interested in these if they were available without the Audi tax? A local fabricator can do them in stainless steel (which is 10 gauge I think, or 3.4mm I think) and they would be cheaper if a jig was made and a number manufactured. I don't know the number, guessing 10. I presume if the quality was good and the metal thick enough they would last. Any thoughts ? I've been quoted $2,500 AUS ($1750 US, 1566 euro) to have them made up on the car, and less than half that if a jig is made up. Making the jig is maybe $1600 US, no idea what it would be in the states. The TTEs look cast and the Milletech look fabricated, but I'm totally out of my depth with all of this. Of course a bunch of you guys could have it done where you are. Am I right in thinking that this mod has been a trifle overlooked, and is reasonable dollars per hp, (after a tune maybe, in value for money) or am I missing details which would explain why there appears to me to be not a lot of stuff about it. The manufacturer I spoke to said he thought 100 hp might be optimistic, closer to 80 maybe, but that's another guess. I'm kind of tempted to have them made up on the car when the RS7 +4mm turbos go on and the bulk discount thing is probably not worth the hassle. Over to you and thanks.

[ZTM pearl]

billet exhaust 2.jpgbillet exhaust 4.jpgbillet exhaust 7.jpgbillet exhaust 9.jpg

Hey guys, what's up? 3 hours, 54 views, no comments.
Look at the stock manifold, what a piece of crap.
Even uglier on the inside I bet.
Has nobody ever bought one, or knows somebody who knows somebody?
What am I missing ?
UPDATE: apologies, full disclosure, I'm a newbie. I just noticed most posts only get about 1 comment per 100 views.

[daytona rs7]

http://dmt-racing.com

if you get in touch with them, im sure you can get a price for manifold only.

[15 Phantom S6]

Not sure if anyone really knows how much of a restriction the OEM manifold is... On top of that, a good flowing manifold with a good amount of reserve air in the chamber will create a need for tuning to take advantage of it. This is where most will shy away and not proceed any further..

I'm sure if one of the tuning companies did the testing, provided the upgraded tune and all the data shows some nice gains, everyone who mods for power would jump on board.. If people have to reinvent the wheel to use an aftermarket manifold, then the situation will remain as it is now. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think most folks on this board want proven and complete tuning solutions and don't have the time or desire to be guinea pigs on this type of car..

[Dasquade]

I tought most tuners told the stock manifolds are 'good' enough and not worth upgrading untill stage 3 (RS models).
Just curious, did audi build their stock manifolds (half/half tubes per dual cilinders) purely for the COD in mind or it there actually science behind it?
I suppose the manifold would benefit from large full size tubes all the way but 80-100HP gain?

[ZTM pearl]

The prices quoted above are for manifolds only. The DMT website stuff looks pretty cool, thanks daytona.

I will be going to stage 3 and a tune of course, will be essential.
It will all be done at once and unfortunately if a performance exhaust manifold is fitted it won't be possible to work out if it's doing anything useful, except by guessing.
If not many people have done it, then maybe there's a reason.
On the other hand, I can't imagine DMT and others doing it if it didn't work. They've got a lot of dyno results and performance figures.
If they're quoting 1155 hp and sub 10s 1/4 then they must know something. They seem pretty results based.
Perhaps Milletech and TTE Global have got documented dyno gains.

[ZTM pearl]

Hullo again. C'est moi. I contacted DMT, Milletech and TTE. DMT were helpful, Milletech were very helpful, and still waiting on TTE. This is a screenshot from the DMT WhatsApp conversationDMT.jpg

Click on the image to get a legible view.

From that conversation I get the impression that anyone who feels they have eliminated all the major choke points while retaining OEM manifolds might not be 100% correct.

website: http://dmt-racing.com/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pg/vsperfor...=page_internal

WhatsApp: +7 967 170-77-66


I've no idea what generations he is talking about with regards to engine quality. Perhaps someone who knows something can comment.
I'll post the Milletech stuff. Whoever it was who sent me that is an asset to the company.

[ZTM pearl]

How much are your S7/RS7 exhaust manifolds?
Hi
At the moment we have the best offer for you
We have one full set of billet manifolds + stage 2 turbos in stock

I already have the turbos

Ok
So you need only manifolds
yep

Ok . We need aprox 2 weeks to make them
Price for set is 2900€. + Shipping
ok thank you

12:15 AM
Hi again. What sort of hp gain can be expected from your S7/RS7 after market exhaust manifolds at about the stage 3 level? I have an S7 on which I will be installing RS7 +4mm turbos. Thank you again for your time. Regards, Greg.🙂


You will install oem rs7 turbos
Or hybrids ?
ZZZZZZZ
4:59 AM

We have seen 50-100 hp gain but it all depends on other mods you have
On stock rs6/7 turbos we have from 30 to 50 hp gain
But with hybrids its way more because with our manifolds there is no knock so you can tune your car way more and if you have water / meth than you can have 100 hp more with them

M1.jpgM2.jpgM3.jpgM4.jpgM5.jpgM13.jpgM14.jpg


Oem manifolds are really bad
Our manifolds have 40 mm on all cylinders vs stock manifold has all different , even 26 mm on some ports
6:44 AM
Thank you very much for that very useful information and the beautiful photos of your manifolds and the totally fugly ones of the OEMs. (I just woke up BTW). I will be using hybridized RS7 turbos, 4mm over, with meth injection. 😁👹🥰

Thats great for power


We installed over 30 turbo setups on those cars
And I would always put manifolds
Car drives so much better
Than with stock manifolds
And on hybrid turbos there is a big difference in torque delivery because manifolds are bigger
So you have max torque later
Which is better for engine and gearbox especially

This is installed on s8 , but it's the same on rs6 and rs7

M11.jpgM12.jpg




And our turbos
We tested 12 different turbo wheels in last 2 years
And this combo is the best

(Can only do 10 file uploads per post so I have to do another post with the photos of their turbos)

Sounds pretty good. I would like to put your comment and photos on the forum, then when you get lots of enquiries you can think of me


Addendum:

1. Communication with Milletech was done via Facebook messenger on the Facebook site called "Group buy at Milletech"

2. When I said that I thought that the OEM Audi exhaust manifolds were probably even more ugly on the inside, I was wrong, my bad. They clearly transcend mere ugliness and are heavily into the obscene category.

[ZTM pearl]

Here begineth my next post

M7.jpgM8.jpgM9.jpgM10.jpgM6.jpg

And here it endeth

[4Ringsof4ury]

What sort of eldritch abomination are those oem exhaust manifolds? I need bleach for my eyes after seeing those.

[15 Phantom S6]

The engineering that went into all the hidden restrictions inside the manifolds is crazy.. Talk about overthinking and over designing.. It's a wonder we can get the power figures we get with the OEM manifolds..

I wonder if the maze of restrictions in the RS7/RS6 manifolds are the exact same in the S6/S7 manifolds??

[kaploww]

They are the same part.

[Damir85]

Milletech, dmt, vs performance all thoose turbos are from turbosystems

[Hofahome]

Milletech, dmt, vs performance all thoose turbos are from turbosystems

Just looked up turbosystems and found a vid of an A8 (not S8) doing 0-60 in 2.8. But redline was past 7k!!




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ntsantos]

After seeing the pics of the stock manifold, I would say the aftermarket manifolds are an absolute must if you're planning on bigger turbos. I don't think they're worth it as a standalone upgrade. It would cost a fortune to fit them up to any existing turbos. Great share though. I thought these manifold were snake oil or minimum gain at best, but those stockers....damn.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Audizine mobile app

[ZTM pearl]

As suspected, the guts of the OEMs are very ugly.

[OlyS6]

I think higher flowing manifolds are a good idea, but it sure looks like the OEM manifolds are designed to try to reduce the heat generated in the engine bay (hence the folded-over design). I wonder if the larger internal diameter manifolds covered in ceramic or similar would both give better performance and try to keep engine bay temps similar?


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[kaploww]

The stock manifolds are very specifically engineered.

The aftermarket manifolds I have seen so far have not impressed me.

[Chiromikey]

I’m no expert but logic tells me that the OEM manifold is chambered for a reason, it’s designed for twin scroll turbos. This “performance” exhaust manifold seems to be missing that very important design element.

[wwhan]

I’m no expert but logic tells me that the OEM manifold is chambered for a reason, it’s designed for twin scroll turbos. This “performance” exhaust manifold seems to be missing that very important design element.

+1, The manifolds were designed for good response and driveability, NOT just peak HP.

From SSP 920223:

"In passenger cars with twin turbochargers, turbine housings are predominantly single-branch designs, where the intake cross-section into the turbine has no divider in the center. As a result, the impulse energy of one branch could interfere with the adjacent branch over this common entry area. The new dual branch design of the 4.0L V8 enabled separation of the two exhaust manifold tracts until right before the turbine housing intake."

"Twin-Scroll Design
Exhaust passages from two cylinders at a time run separately from each other in the exhaust manifold and turbocharger housing. They are joined just before the turbine, preventing reciprocal interference of exhaust flows. This guarantees a rapid buildup of torque and outstanding response."

"Both exhaust manifolds are designed as double-airgap insulated manifolds. Because each cylinder has its own exhaust path to the turbine, the exhaust gas flows of specific cylinders are directed separately to the turbochargers.

Exhaust gas flows are brought together according to the firing order of the individual cylinders:
• Bank 1: Cylinders 1 and 3, 2, and 4
• Bank 2: Cylinders 5 and 6, 7, and 8"

[Chiromikey]

Thank you wwhan for confirming my thoughts. These “performance” manifolds just took our twin scroll turbos backward a decade in development and turned them into regular less efficient turbos most likely creating less boost.

[kaploww]

Thank you wwhan for confirming my thoughts. These “performance” manifolds just took our twin scroll turbos backward a decade in development and turned them into regular less efficient turbos most likely creating less boost.

Boost will ultimately be the same. Just slower spool.

[Chiromikey]

Boost will ultimately be the same. Just slower spool.

For the most part you’re right but not if we’re looking for the most efficiency. It’s more complicated than I can explain properly but without the separate chambers there can be loss of exhaust pressure going into the turbo because the gasses have access to other cylinders where there may be valve overlap between those cylinders.

[ZTM pearl]

Boost will ultimately be the same. Just slower spool.

Thanks kaploww
I don't know if slower spool or turbo lag is likely to ever be much of a problem in these motors with the hot V setup where the turbos sit right on top of the exhaust manifolds. You didn't actually say that it would be a problem, you just implied it would theoretically be slower. As you know, there would be pros and cons with any changes made. High range power gain might compensate low range power loss.

[ZTM pearl]

Thanks wwhan, that was really interesting and very useful information which I've never seen before. As we know, the Audi engineers have created a masterpiece where everything works in perfect harmony. It's very sad when people with poor impulse control come along and install bigger turbos and higher boost, larger intake pipes, heat-exchangers and water pumps, de-cat downpipes, new exhaust systems, reprogrammed ECUs and so on, and screw everything up. They create a different environment and to an extent what's been worked out on the stock motor may not be still applicable. That diagram makes excellent sense, but once people start to vandalise the motor, what works and what doesn't, IMHO, is determined by the 1/4 mile and the dyno. If these manifolds are good for 50-150 hp in stage 3, as alleged (mostly by the people who sell them) then discussion needs to take that into account. If that's crap, then it's a different story. Personally, If I put one on, I'll be hoping it doesn't work, so that I don't have to spend my waking hours fretting about my drive-train, although it is claimed that power delivery is smoother and drive-train longevity is enhanced by the softening of the low down output. That might be of some reassurance. It seems to me that by maintaining that pulse design, but with less restrictive plumbing, might be a valid approach that nobody appears to have tried before, that I know of.

[ZTM pearl]

[QUOTE=OlyS6;13781276]I think higher flowing manifolds are a good idea, but it sure looks like the OEM manifolds are designed to try to reduce the heat generated in the engine bay (hence the folded-over design). I wonder if the larger internal diameter manifolds covered in ceramic or similar would both give better performance and try to keep engine bay temps similar?

I agree OlyS6, I would assume any increase in under-bonnet temperature would be detrimental, and the stock manifolds look like they might insulate heat better, or maybe they just act as a heat soak.

[ZTM pearl]

"For the most part you’re right but not if we’re looking for the most efficiency. It’s more complicated than I can explain properly but without the separate chambers there can be loss of exhaust pressure going into the turbo because the gasses have access to other cylinders where there may be valve overlap between those cylinders."

Chiromikey, my understanding is that virtually all mods done in the chase for horsepower are attempts to increase flow volume and velocity, and in these circumstances, I would think that pulse control would have decreasing importance, and that minimisation of friction would have more impact.

[ZTM pearl]

The stock manifolds are very specifically engineered.

The aftermarket manifolds I have seen so far have not impressed me.

With all due respect kaploww, please don't tell me you think the stock manifolds look better.audi-v8-1.jpg

I can't see that manifold on the Audi Le Mans engine.

[kaploww]

The stock exhaust manifold has more in common with the Le Mans engine exhaust manifolds, than the manifolds in the OP do.

[ZTM pearl]

Thanks kaploww, that's good enough for me. Do you have the Le Mans manifold part number? (just kidding).

[kaploww]

I don’t even know why I bother...

[ZTM pearl]

Well kaploww, like one of my teachers at school said, many, many decades ago, "we have both failed, but at least I tried".

[kaploww]

Except I haven’t failed...

I wouldn’t run those manifolds for specific reasons, like... engineering reasons... thermodynamic reasons... and fluid dynamic reasons...

You and your teacher can enjoy your participation trophies together.

You know what they say... those who can’t do... teach.

[ZTM pearl]

That's a lot of reasons, I'm convinced.
My teacher, of course, wasn't talking to me when he said that.
I wonder if, hypothetically, these alleged "performance manifolds" removed 20 hp at 2,000 rpm, and added 40 hp at 6,000 rpm would that make life easier for the drive-train components, such as the DSG in the S7 and the axles in the RS7. I've not seen an axle break, but assume it happens on launch.
Many tuners limit boost in lower gears to help with traction problems. I don't know how often that is done with the AWD 4.0TTs, as it would obviously be more of a rear wheel drive problem (with the exception of McLarens). I'm not sure of how many 10 second AWDs have significant traction issues, but theoretically a manifold which favours power at a higher rev range may help. I'm not in that category, just idle speculation.

[esemes]

That's a lot of reasons, I'm convinced.
My teacher, of course, wasn't talking to me when he said that.
I wonder if, hypothetically, these alleged "performance manifolds" removed 20 hp at 2,000 rpm, and added 40 hp at 6,000 rpm would that make life easier for the drive-train components, such as the DSG in the S7 and the axles in the RS7. I've not seen an axle break, but assume it happens on launch.
Many tuners limit boost in lower gears to help with traction problems. I don't know how often that is done with the AWD 4.0TTs, as it would obviously be more of a rear wheel drive problem (with the exception of McLarens). I'm not sure of how many 10 second AWDs have significant traction issues, but theoretically a manifold which favours power at a higher rev range may help. I'm not in that category, just idle speculation.

That'd completely alter the dynamics of the car as it is known. It's not scrabbling the tires as - is stock, so driving on mostly public roads, within reason, would make the car feel less engaging in most daily encounters. Is there a boost - by - gear option in tuning these (admittedly had this car for a very short time)?

[ZTM pearl]

That'd completely alter the dynamics of the car as it is known. It's not scrabbling the tires as - is stock, so driving on mostly public roads, within reason, would make the car feel less engaging in most daily encounters. Is there a boost - by - gear option in tuning these (admittedly had this car for a very short time)?

Agreed, a high flowing exhaust manifold on a stock car probably would result in a less engaging drive. This motor is known for it's low down responsiveness and larger diameter inlet and exhaust, in isolation, would lower charge velocity and compromise flexibility. A high flow exhaust manifold is generally only recommended, even by those who flog them, when all other restrictions have been eliminated. At this point, an extra 50 to 150hp is claimed, in addition to the 150 to 250 hp already achieved from the usual stage 3 mods of larger turbos, heat exchanger, downpipes and exhaust, inlets, ecu tune etc. By this stage, the amount of time spent in the lower rev range is negligible, and a fairly engaging drive is pretty much a given, I should imagine. We will really only know when someone with a modified car puts on one of these manifolds and does before and after testing. Until then everything is speculation, but to me they look like they would increase maximum output.

[kaploww]

No to the word salad you just posted above.

The manifold in the OP is what Audi would have done if they didn’t want to spend a few million paying engineers to build an exhaust manifold.

It’s a log manifold.

There is NO ONE in the performance or OEM business who has taken off an exhaust pulse length tuned exhaust manifold, thrown on a log manifold, and said “Well that was a good idea.”

[jacobyb]

No to the word salad you just posted above.

The manifold in the OP is what Audi would have done if they didn’t want to spend a few million paying engineers to build an exhaust manifold.

It’s a log manifold.

There is NO ONE in the performance or OEM business who has taken off an exhaust pulse length tuned exhaust manifold, thrown on a log manifold, and said “Well that was a good idea.”

Got a chance to meet this man this week. He knows what he is talking about and is almost guaranteed smarter than the rest of us. Trust his logic. He knows exactly what he is doing/talking about..

[wwhan]

Got a chance to meet this man this week. He knows what he is talking about and is almost guaranteed smarter than the rest of us. Trust his logic. He knows exactly what he is doing/talking about..

Who are you referring to?

Yes, Kaploww makes sense,

but that log manifold as an improvement, no.

[kaploww]

I’ve analyzed the exhaust manifold thoroughly.

There are ways to make improvements.

A log manifold is not one of them.