P0016 down on power, hard start

[nthreasher]

B8 A4 avant 2009, 160k miles

Had to push the key in this morning to get it to turn over for longer than usual. After that, saw CEL, so check code on OBD scanner, and got the P0016
I did drive it, but nursed it for ~3 miles
Sounds fine when engine not under load, but when try to accelerate it is way down on power. I am not planning on driving it now it is in my garage.
THere's tons of threads I know, but I couldnt find answer to my first question on compression check

Questions for diagnosis...

• Can I do a compression check (coil power leads off etc), or just the act of rotating it could cause issues?
• What's the best way to try and figure out if chain has jumped before I go investing in a new chain (and assume old tensioner)
• Will the inspection window for the timing chain tell me anything?
• I changed an ignition coil recently, assuming no correlation, but would putting the old one back in help? old one was fine, just didnt match the other 3 R8 red coils

Any help would be greatly appreciated!!!

[mtroxel]

Compression check is not terribly reliable when you're out of time. And that's what P0016 is telling you. Best coil packs in the world won't change that.

If you have 160,000 miles and have never done the chain/tensioner, it's a really safe bet that's where you P0016 is located. No point in looking through the inspection hole. The only question is if you have bent valves. I might snake a boroscope in there and see if there are any shiny collision spots on the pistons or bottom of the valves.

[nthreasher]

thanks for bent valves, would that lead to any noticeable sound at idle?
also, is it ok to idle, or complete no drive / no start until I figure it out in case of any (further?) valve collisions

[Theiceman]

do not restart this car...
pop off inspection port and inspect tensioner. if tensioner has collapsed you have a very loose chain. have all the timing gear replaced.

[nthreasher]

Boroscope on it's way from Amazon tomorrow... will have a look down in from the top.
For the inspection port, if I can't run it, I can't get it on the rhino ramps, to be able to see what I am doing. And I am definitely not do it on axle stands if I need to be underneath it

for chain and tensioner kit plus necessary timing tools, it's around $800 for parts? at this point this car might be priced by the ton and off to a scrap yard. I was down to 250 miles between a quart of oil anyway!
the Wagon is great, but so many major failings in the 2009 model year have made it a fairly miserable experience for the last 80k miles

[mtroxel]

I go back to, is this the original chain and tensionier? If so, do not bother with the inspection hole. You need a hole chain job. The question is if you have bent valves.

And no, do not even turn that motor over. Certainly not to pull it up onto ramps.

250 miles per quart? You do know that Audi of America is doing piston and ring jobs on these don't you? Mine was done 50,000 miles ago. I barely burn 3 drops between oil changes.

[nthreasher]

I go back to, is this the original chain and tensionier?

250 miles per quart? You do know that Audi of America is doing piston and ring jobs on these don't you? Mine was done 50,000 miles ago. I barely burn 3 drops between oil changes.

Yes original chain and tensioner as best as I know . I haven't changed it since I've owned it

Bought at 83k miles. AoA entertaining up to 80k as their line in the sand (I know others have been lucky and got it done past that). But they had no interest in helping me

[mtroxel]

OK so that's all the more reason to assume the chain/tensioner has lived MUCH longer than many around here have seen. That's got to be changed, and lets hope you have compression. If the boroscope shows no shiny scratches in the carbon on the pistons or valves, you might just do a chain job and get lucky.

[Theiceman]

If you just got the code and down on power you are lucky and it's likely fixable. If the car stalled and wont restart you are likely screwed

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[rcprato]

Unfortunately with the oil consumption and possible timing jump you probably need a complete engine rebuild or replacement engine.
If you are done with the car and body is in good shape there is someone out their willing to do the work to get it back on the road if you pass it on for a reasonable price, the Avant is a sharp vehicle

[Theiceman]

Unfortunately with the oil consumption and possible timing jump you probably need a complete engine rebuild or replacement engine.
If you are done with the car and body is in good shape there is someone out their willing to do the work to get it back on the road if you pass it on for a reasonable price, the Avant is a sharp vehicle

Yeah that's a good point . Its not the timing work, as much as the cost and time put in to get back to an oil burner.
Very likely not worth it unless the plan is to fix timing and trade it in

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[nthreasher]

Cylinders 2 and 3 were down so could get a good look... Scope didn't zoom out far and couldn't get it look back up at valves

Photos are as zoomed out as possible on piston 2 and 3, then a zoom in what looks like swarf in corner of each...

I feel like my piston and valves friends may have made contact...

Do people still advertise mechanic specials.... If I had a spare car and a week idle I'd be searching LKQ , but I don't think that's going to happen. $800 of tires 2k miles ago for a start

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[nthreasher]

Magnet attachment didn't grab anything on scope but I don't know if they are magnetic or not anyway, would have been nice to grab some of whatever that is to confirm its metallic... Looks it

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[mtroxel]

My vote after looking at those pics....I don't see a shiny mark. Get some other opinions around here though. I was thinking of something like this:

[FR_A4]

Looks more like carbon that came loose from injector and plugs being pulled out.
Get a thin tube and vaccum it out, then check your vac.

[S-Liner]

Yea those are carbon pieces. Valve to piston contact is distinct and is easy to identify.

So you have an Avant....want to sell me some parts? 🤩


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[Theiceman]

Yea those are carbon pieces. Valve to piston contact is distinct and is easy to identify.

So you have an Avant....want to sell me some parts? 🤩


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As I thought. That car is totally saveable. Throw a timing chain and tensioner on it. Definitely worth the gamble.

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[mtroxel]

As I thought. That car is totally saveable. Throw a timing chain and tensioner on it. Definitely worth the gamble.

Its still a rebuild. Remember he's going through a qt of oil every 250 miles.

[Theiceman]

Oh right


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[nthreasher]

Thanks all, I'm optimistic I won't be totally wasting my time ordering chain and tensioner kit. Anyone have a recommendation on where is best to order from? ECS , Europa, eBay etc.. surely it's a function of price as they should all be same parts aside from I saw some threads that preference is to have Italian tensioner stamped IT

Acknowledging it still has a fairly awful oil addiction, I'm good throwing oil in every few hundred miles for now. I've been doing it for over 4 years... So if it survives timing belt surgery I'll just keep on doing it

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[S-Liner]

Deutsche auto, they have a kit. Stay away from the China made shit on eBay.


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[Theiceman]

I would suggest a fix and trade in

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[nthreasher]

I would suggest a fix and trade in

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Yep, that's where it's heading assuming all goes well with fix

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[Theiceman]

Good luck. I've done this job a couple times so reach out if you get stuck

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[nthreasher]

DAP kit on the way. There's a quite a few 'audi/vw timing tool kits' around. What are the actual tools inside those kits I need, or better off just getting the kit

Assume cam locking tool, anything else in there that's needed for this? I have triple squares already from various other jobs I've done on the car

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[Theiceman]

the biggie for me were two fold ...

the special socket with the two circular prongs on it for loosening the oil control plunger ( no idea what it is really called... )

the other biggie is being able to hold the harmonic balancer while loosening/tightening the bolt.
both shown in this video

https://www.google.com/search?q=edge...TF-8#kpvalbx=1

[tomsgtr]

Do a compression test and leak down to gauge the health of the engine. Go from there

[nthreasher]

tools ordered, timing chain kit coming, alldatadiy manual download... likely will attack it on the weekend

Question though... if the timing is out... I wont be able to rotate it all to TDC with the vibration damper mark in place, and the camshaft timing marks to the top all at the same time?
Is there going to be more to this, i.e. opening up cylinder head, removing camshafts or something else?

Rotating the crankshaft could lead to (possibly further) contact with valves.

Or am I totally misunderstanding? and/or hoping it is just a sloppy chain due to tensioner and timing is still ok...

[nthreasher]

Finally got around to this... Upper cover off only so far so haven't looked at tensioner.
But I assume I'm gonna find it gave up, chain is off on intake camshaft...

So what's my order of events here...
Do I need to get tension back (with new tensioner) before I can rotate to TDC... Or is TDC rotation out of question now if cams might be out of time with the crank?

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[nthreasher]

Red dots are where the timing marks are

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[Theiceman]

your chain is off that sprocket already .. get all the cover off , take the plugs out and see if you can slowly turn it to tdc .. if you you hit valves stop and you may have to manually turn cams. even if you cant there are marks on the sprocket s so you can align with chain to get back in time. just take it slow and it will work out.

[MLSE92]

Cylinders 2 and 3 were down so could get a good look... Scope didn't zoom out far and couldn't get it look back up at valves

Photos are as zoomed out as possible on piston 2 and 3, then a zoom in what looks like swarf in corner of each...

I feel like my piston and valves friends may have made contact...

Do people still advertise mechanic specials.... If I had a spare car and a week idle I'd be searching LKQ , but I don't think that's going to happen. $800 of tires 2k miles ago for a start

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You said it is drinking oil... could the debris be collapsed piston rings?


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[nthreasher]

your chain is off that sprocket already .. get all the cover off , take the plugs out and see if you can slowly turn it to tdc .. if you you hit valves stop and you may have to manually turn cams. even if you cant there are marks on the sprocket s so you can align with chain to get back in time. just take it slow and it will work out.

So I accidentally advanced the right hand side cam... When taking off the bridge, I was following alldatadiy manual and it didn't say to hold cam with wrench while you loosen ! Should have focused more on the YouTube guy tearing the oily q5 apart

Advanced crank a little, looks like it would hit it's tdc point, and so would left cam. But right is a mess

So time to take off chains, etc, and manually rotate that cam into place (can I rotate back, or is it all the way clockwise?

Note - didn't take off the lower cover yet... Need to go and get a 24mm socket

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[nthreasher]

Here is tensioner in case it's clear to someone whether it contributed

Also found the broken off piece in the bottom when I removed the lower cover. Off a guide rail for the lower chain, not sure if that contributed to anything

Giving up for today. Maybe take a day off and resume Sunday

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[Theiceman]

Doesnt much matter clockwise or not now untill you get the timing chains back on. That tensioner looks intact but really hard to tell. Just take your time and stop and figure it out if you hit resistance.

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[nthreasher]

Doesnt much matter clockwise or not now untill you get the timing chains back on. That tensioner looks intact but really hard to tell. Just take your time and stop and figure it out if you hit resistance.

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Cheers. Will take it slow and figure it out. Overthinking it today, so best to take a break

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[nthreasher]

Guide on timing chain had broken in two. Chain cut a notch out metal on back of lower timing cover too

Put it back together, new chains etc. All timing marks perfect, piston was TDC with TDC gauge in the spark plug hole...
Fired it up and it was all wrong, no metallic sounds, but engine was rocking. Also was a harder start still
P0016 or whatever code still there too. And then a ton more

I'm giving up now. Assume there was likely top end damage after all.

Compression for cyclinder 1 and 2 was about 40 psi

So time for a new thread for best way to get this thing out of my garage and at least get a few hundred. I don't want to take time to part it

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[mtroxel]

Compression for cyclinder 1 and 2 was about 40 psi

Go have a couple beers. Get a good night's sleep. Now that you have new timing parts, you might think about pulling the head. If it's just bent valves, now you have a valve job at a machine shop and your back in business.

Just a thought....