2012 A4 B8 Cylinder 3 Misfire/No Compression Engine Issue Dilemma

[nycturks]

Hey everyone,

Here's my story so far with this car and if anyone is in a similar situation, I'd like to share experiences and get some feedback from others who are familiar with this issue. I recently purchased B8 A4 Quattro Prestige 6 Speed Manual. It's never been modded and had Audi service/maintenance plan up to 65K. Currently, it has around 83K miles. Car looks sexy and super tight on the road BUT it came with a CEL and on and off PEC light at times. I did basic diagnosis at home, it showed P0303 Cylinder 3 Misfire Detected. Like everyone else, I changed the coils, plugs = same issue continues to exist. Car runs rough and engine is shaky at low RPM. My next DIY fix was going to be fuel injector on 3. While I was at local Audi dealership for something different, I talked to a service adviser. He pulled up my VIN and showed me my car is under extended warranty from Audi for injectors 10Yr/120K & timing chain 10Yr/100K. He promised they would change the injectors under this warranty. I later found out there's a class-action lawsuit settlement for timing chain related issues (hmm.. interesting right). He said I wouldn't have to pay anything out of pocket if I authorize them to replace the faulty injectors. If not, I'd be responsible for the $190 diagnostics fee. Few days later, I drop off my car to service hoping them to replace the injectors FREE and they gave me loaner car. He said they normally lend them to 2015 and up owners but he made it happen. He calls me later that same day and says "there's a misfire but the cylinder is bad, really bad because during the leak-down test the piston is shot". I am shocked at this point and confused why would a piston go bad on a well maintained car. I later go to talk to him, he shows me the video/sound of the leak-down test and says don't worry I will talk to my manager tomorrow and try to fight this for you to get it fixed at no cost you (sounds good right?). A day later, he sends me text saying his manager will submit this to AoA but he needs service records of last 2 years. He continues to say they will also ask for authorization to disassemble the engine to further inspect the damage/fault/cause by doing so I would "assume" $5320 charge. Again he mentions you are not paying anything at this time. Once they determine the failure, they will submit it to AoA. He then gives me hope by saying "we have a really good shot here, low mileage, service records on file (up to 65K)". This dealer's service department has mixed reviews on Yelp.

Has anyone experienced anything similar to this? Is this too good to be true? Or, is it simply bait-and-switch method I am being victim to? What do you guys suggest?

Thank you!

[rcprato]

You have some risk here, you are outside the standard power train warranty so if it is not fuel injectors or timing chain tensioner causing the cylinder 3 problem they might be able to get out of covering a repair for no compression

[Theiceman]

depends ,,,, i agree there is risk , but if the defective injector caused the cylinder to run leaned and burned it up he is covered. my impression was the injectors got stuck open though and essentially flooded that cylinder... piston sounds odd... burned valve i could understand.

id want to see a borescope.... see if there is any visible damage, or whether its a scored cylinder. they should have that info before ever taking it apart and can advise you and Audi.

[whats77inaname]

I agree with the borescope. Considering they're literally $30 for a good resolution unit with angle adapters on Amazon (ask me how I know), the fact that they need to tear down is kinda surprising. If they can't do it for you, hell, go buy one and take a look yourself and see.

[helldriver]

I had a cyl 3 misfire for a few years, chased all possibilities, finally moved all cyl head components from 3 to 1, misfire jumped, turned out to be a bad roller rocker arm bearing, I was told also I had a burnt valve after scoping it, it was just carbon build up. So it looked like a piece of the valve was gone.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Audizine mobile app

[Shane Horning]

Might be a cracked piston. My brother cracked #4 piston on his c7 a6 2.0t.20190516_070546.jpg

[nycturks]

Absolutely, a $5300 decision to make. From what I’ve known with dealers over the years, they’re there to make money not necessarily help people for free. I did some research on service advisors and most get commission on service sales they bring in.

- - - Updated - - -

[BeerBrent]

Absolutely, a $5300 decision to make. From what I’ve known with dealers over the years, they’re there to make money not necessarily help people for free. I did some research on service advisors and most get commission on service sales they bring in.

Not all of them. I've been very happy with both the service reps I've work with at the Audi dealership near me. They helped me get my turbo replaced and timing chain/tensioner replaced for $0 (Audi extended warranty).

[nycturks]

I agree with the borescope. Considering they're literally $30 for a good resolution unit with angle adapters on Amazon (ask me how I know), the fact that they need to tear down is kinda surprising. If they can't do it for you, hell, go buy one and take a look yourself and see.

What's a good borescope for reasonable price? I would assume my $190 diagnostics fee (if I don't end up car fixed there) would cover this and they would give me the results right?

[whats77inaname]

What's a good borescope for reasonable price? I would assume my $190 diagnostics fee (if I don't end up car fixed there) would cover this and they would give me the results right?

$21 and you're all in.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06WRNGYXY...ing=UTF8&psc=1. I use it with my Surface Pro. No issues, good video and very, very inexpensive.

You can also get the wireless one for a little bit more:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MYTHWK4/ref=emc_b_5_t

I don't have that particular one, so I can't speak on it, but the resolution is higher, and you can use the attachments package:
https://www.amazon.com/Depstech-Magn...dp/B06Y2WGSXW/

[nycturks]

I had a cyl 3 misfire for a few years, chased all possibilities, finally moved all cyl head components from 3 to 1, misfire jumped, turned out to be a bad roller rocker arm bearing, I was told also I had a burnt valve after scoping it, it was just carbon build up. So it looked like a piece of the valve was gone.

I don’t think the carbon cleaning has been done to this car. That’s another DIY fix or do I have to take it to a shop who does thins type of work ?

[whats77inaname]

I don’t think the carbon cleaning has been done to this car. That’s another DIY fix or do I have to take it to a shop who does thins type of work ?

If you're handy, you can DIY:
https://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...Valve-Cleaning

[nycturks]

Might be a cracked piston. My brother cracked #4 piston on his c7 a6 2.0t.20190516_070546.jpg

How many miles were on the car when this happened? And do you know the cause?

[Shane Horning]

How many miles were on the car when this happened? And do you know the cause?

It had around 110k miles when it happened . He bought the car with 90k and since he owned it the engine would have a slight knock when freereving around 3k rpms. Then when we pulled the motor apart we found all the cylinders were scarred so I wonder if the previous owner overheated the engine. It split the piston after about 30 seconds of wot and its stage 2 but didn't think that would do it

[old guy]

Google LSPI (low speed pre ignition). Looks pretty similar to your damage.

[nycturks]

Google LSPI (low speed pre ignition). Looks pretty similar to your damage.

I am hoping (fingers-crossed) this is not my piston. I am supposed to hear back from the dealer today. I'll update status here.

[old guy]

I am hoping (fingers-crossed) this is not my piston. I am supposed to hear back from the dealer today. I'll update status here.

Oops! I just realized that it wasn't your picture posted above. Hopefully it is something less significant.

[nycturks]

UPDATE 5/18: SA contacted me saying injectors and timing chain are not failing components at this time, there are no codes in the system for any failing injectors or engine being out of time. He continues "we have codes for cylinder 2 and cylinder 3 misfire with the diagnosis we can only determine 20% leakage into cylinder 2 with leak-down test. If we disassemble, we can tell the exact failure either piston ring or injector causing the piston to fail. We are recommending to replace all pistons. When we know exactly what needs to be replaced, we can submit it to AoA for assistance on repairs for either replacing all the pistons etc. There is only warranty extension on the injectors and timing chain but our diagnosis doesn't show these as failure. I understand you not wanting to authorize the disassembly ($5320) in fear of being responsible of all the charge. Once we submit to AoA and approve assistance, 50%, 75%, 100% coverage that charge gets adjusted based on that coverage."

I didn't authorize the tear-down and asked if I can replace the injectors only. He said he'll follow up again Monday 5/20 but nothing today yet.

This is more and more looking like bait-and-switch to me now as they are not willing to replace any of the extended warranty items (originally that's what I took my car in for) but insisting on tearing down the engine. Also strange that it's cylinder 2 not 3 now (maybe a typo?). Why would Audi assist if service is claiming injectors and timing are not the issue at this time? This car no longer has any power-train warranty @83K.

[Zuzuwu]

I don't trust dealers at all. I would take the car back and do as a few other people said and look at it with a bore scope. Also perform a compression test. Leak down is whatever, it's a static test, not really helpful for a misfire. Compression test all cylinders and see if the one misfiring is indeed lower. If it's lower, then at that point a leakdown test will help identify where it is losing pressure. If you either A: visually see piston damage with the scope, or B: find the cylinder with low compression and leakdown past the rings, you need to contact audi and see about having the engine repair covered. A faulty injector will damage a piston really quickly, and since the injectors are under extended warranty any damaged caused by them should be covered. Many manufacturers will "good will" repairs like this.
Under no circumstance would i authorize a $5300 tear down (an absolutely absurd price) with no guarantee of it being covered. For that price I'd just have an independent shop rebuild it and still save a few thousand. However, from my experience, I'd be shocked if audi didn't cover most or all of this repair if it is actually an internal engine failure.

Sent from my SM-P550 using Audizine mobile app

[Theiceman]

" I think we have a really good shot here" ??
Lol
More like he has a really good shot at making some bonus.

Sent from my SM-G973W using Audizine mobile app

[whats77inaname]

Considering one can pick up a 50K-ish mile B8.5 engine for around $3300 shipped, I'd be hard-pressed to gamble $53xx with the dealer.

[nycturks]

I don't trust dealers at all. I would take the car back and do as a few other people said and look at it with a bore scope. Also perform a compression test. Leak down is whatever, it's a static test, not really helpful for a misfire. Compression test all cylinders and see if the one misfiring is indeed lower. If it's lower, then at that point a leakdown test will help identify where it is losing pressure. If you either A: visually see piston damage with the scope, or B: find the cylinder with low compression and leakdown past the rings, you need to contact audi and see about having the engine repair covered. A faulty injector will damage a piston really quickly, and since the injectors are under extended warranty any damaged caused by them should be covered. Many manufacturers will "good will" repairs like this.
Under no circumstance would i authorize a $5300 tear down (an absolutely absurd price) with no guarantee of it being covered. For that price I'd just have an independent shop rebuild it and still save a few thousand. However, from my experience, I'd be shocked if audi didn't cover most or all of this repair if it is actually an internal engine failure.

So, you are suggesting to contact AoA myself with the problem and results of bore-scope, compression, and leak-down tests? Would they still cover the engine/pistons repair if the injectors are not at fault (as per my SA injectors and timing are not the issue). It's hard to believe that the injector are not causing the problem. There must be a reason why they extended the warranty to 120K on these. How likely a bad injector will damage the piston and or cylinder? I was reading up on the CAEB engines that they are built weak especially pistons and piston rings.

[nycturks]

Considering one can pick up a 50K-ish mile B8.5 engine for around $3300 shipped, I'd be hard-pressed to gamble $53xx with the dealer.

This is my last resort option to just do a whole engine swap from a 2013-2016 B 8.5 CPM engine code. I hear that these are built way better than the earlier CAEs. If AT engine, can I just swap the fly-wheel from mine (6 speed)?

[whats77inaname]

This is my last resort option to just do a whole engine swap from a 2013-2016 B 8.5 CPM engine code. I hear that these are built way better than the earlier CAEs. If AT engine, can I just swap the fly-wheel from mine (6 speed)?

Although that would seem logical to me, as that was the case when I converted my VehiCROSS from automatic to a manual, I can't say for sure w/out more research. Given that they made MTs A4s during that time, if it were me, I'd be inclined to find one of those first.

[nycturks]

" I think we have a really good shot here" ??
Lol
More like he has a really good shot at making some bonus.

haha, they gotto make that commish! I bet they have sales quotas to meet for raises and promotions etc.

[nycturks]

2012 A4 Missfire Cylinder 3 - Cold Start - prior to taking it to the dealer

[nycturks]

Although that would seem logical to me, as that was the case when I converted my VehiCROSS from automatic to a manual, I can't say for sure w/out more research. Given that they made MTs A4s during that time, if it were me, I'd be inclined to find one of those first.

I know someone who swapped CAE from 2009 A4 Manual with CPM from 2015 A4. Just swapped the fly-wheel I think.

[Zuzuwu]

So, you are suggesting to contact AoA myself with the problem and results of bore-scope, compression, and leak-down tests? Would they still cover the engine/pistons repair if the injectors are not at fault (as per my SA injectors and timing are not the issue). It's hard to believe that the injector are not causing the problem. There must be a reason why they extended the warranty to 120K on these. How likely a bad injector will damage the piston and or cylinder? I was reading up on the CAEB engines that they are built weak especially pistons and piston rings.

Shit, i would contact them right now with the whole story of it being a dealer maintained car with an undiagnosed misfire and now supposed piston damage at only 85k. They might cover the tear down.
The fact that the dealer is charging you 30+ hours for tear down that will take 3 hours tops would make me very hesitant to trust them.

[nycturks]

UPDATE 5/21: Dealer finally contacted me and here's what they said "We have not performed borescope test and exhausted the $190 diagnostics already. We need advance diagnostic to perform borescope. Lead tech stated that over 20% leakage into that cylinder and denoting a piston ring failure in that cylinder soon there'll be no compression and complete cylinder failure. I originally thought injector however diagnostics showed that's not the case. I know you're not considering disassembly so I'll get the vehicle ready for you to pick up. Without this disassembly, we will not have all information to bring to AoA for consideration for assistance". WOW, What a waste of time and $190!

I called Audi Customer Experience and filed an official complaint against this dealer. I will also be filing with DMV CA and BBB. I texted him letting him know this and that this is BS. He quickly replies " I never told you I would replace the injectors and sounded like injectors could be at fault. Now, he says "me doing a COMPLIMENTARY diagnostic and given you a loaner. There are no charges to you here."

[Zuzuwu]

UPDATE 5/21: Dealer finally contacted me and here's what they said "We have not performed borescope test and exhausted the $190 diagnostics already. We need advance diagnostic to perform borescope. Lead tech stated that over 20% leakage into that cylinder and denoting a piston ring failure in that cylinder soon there'll be no compression and complete cylinder failure. I originally thought injector however diagnostics showed that's not the case. I know you're not considering disassembly so I'll get the vehicle ready for you to pick up. Without this disassembly, we will not have all information to bring to AoA for consideration for assistance". WOW, What a waste of time and $190!

I called Audi Customer Experience and filed an official complaint against this dealer. I will also be filing with DMV CA and BBB. I texted him letting him know this and that this is BS. He quickly replies " I never told you I would replace the injectors and sounded like injectors could be at fault. Now, he says "me doing a COMPLIMENTARY diagnostic and given you a loaner. There are no charges to you here."

I don't understand why they haven't submitted the repair request to audi. If they know for sure it's the rings, then what's the problem? Why would you tear it down before audi even requests it? Go to a different dealer, that place is a joke.

Sent from my SM-P550 using Audizine mobile app

[whats77inaname]

This read, and the dealer's actions, have been borderline ludicrous. I fail to understand how one of the easiest and cheapest things that could possibly be done to help diagnose the issue (borescope) wasn't done at. all. OP, highly suggest you get that done.

[nycturks]

I don't understand why they haven't submitted the repair request to audi. If they know for sure it's the rings, then what's the problem? Why would you tear it down before audi even requests it? Go to a different dealer, that place is a joke.

They said that they will need to show AoA the fault and cause (disassembly) in order to submit it for assistance. Then, AoA would send field techs to review the case and make decision.

[nycturks]

This read, and the dealer's actions, have been borderline ludicrous. I fail to understand how one of the easiest and cheapest things that could possibly be done to help diagnose the issue (borescope) wasn't done at. all. OP, highly suggest you get that done.

I asked the same question. Their response was we already exhausted the (now "COMPLIMENTARY") $190 diagnostics fee and won't be able to do further diagnosis.

[nycturks]

UPDATE 5/22: I have an active case open with AoA Customer Experience team for this incidence. I picked up my car yesterday. They didn't charge me for the whatever diagnostics they did or didn't do at this time. SA told me they tried to help me but they weren't authorized to do any further work without the authorization from me and apologized for any inconvenience. I asked him what were you going to submit Audi for what exactly (referring to the piston replacement and Audi covering it)? When I spoke to Audi Customer Experience rep they told me that any consequential damages would NOT be covered under the extended Injector warranty. He seemed like he didn't even know about Audi not covering any consequential damages caused by other parts that are in warranty. His response was we've seen AoA help customer to cover some of the damages as good will. They gave me MPI for the car (I'll post this). I asked for all the diagnostics reading results (i think they call this GSS or GSR report?) they said they haven't "uploaded" it yet but will email it tomorrow.

Attachment 122466

[Zuzuwu]

They said that they will need to show AoA the fault and cause (disassembly) in order to submit it for assistance. Then, AoA would send field techs to review the case and make decision.

Sounds like a lie. Maybe audi does it differently, but at the dealer i work for we submit the symptoms and basic findings to the manufacturer or warranty company first, then they will request tear down if they have an intention of covering it. I have never seen anyone tear down an engine at the customers expense before even submitting the case to the manufacturer.
I mean, what's their plan? Tear apart your running car, send it to audi, audi might just say no immediately, and now you owe them $5300 and your car is in pieces? It makes NO SENSE at all.

Sent from my SM-P550 using Audizine mobile app

[Spawne32]

Sounds like a lie. Maybe audi does it differently, but at the dealer i work for we submit the symptoms and basic findings to the manufacturer or warranty company first, then they will request tear down if they have an intention of covering it. I have never seen anyone tear down an engine at the customers expense before even submitting the case to the manufacturer.
I mean, what's their plan? Tear apart your running car, send it to audi, audi might just say no immediately, and now you owe them $5300 and your car is in pieces? It makes NO SENSE at all.

Sent from my SM-P550 using Audizine mobile app

Yes, that's exactly what they planned to do, thats how you rope customers in and why they are called "stealerships". Audi's reputation for trash customer service continues. So not only do we have shit cars but the dealers always try to scapegoat to get out of admitting the fact that the cars are shit.

[Zuzuwu]

Yes, that's exactly what they planned to do, thats how you rope customers in and why they are called "stealerships". Audi's reputation for trash customer service continues. So not only do we have shit cars but the dealers always try to scapegoat to get out of admitting the fact that the cars are shit.

The fact that the dealers are independently owned is the cause of 99% of problems with customer service in the automotive industry. The whole system needs to change. If the dealer was audi-owned he would have an answer on the spot, instead we work through a biased middle man who's trying to make a profit on both ends. Plus, if audi were to warranty the engine in this case it would only cost them a few hundred bucks directly to the technician instead of thousands to a dealership. The whole thing is a scam and it's the reason i do all my own work.

Sent from my SM-P550 using Audizine mobile app

[nycturks]

Yes, that's exactly what they planned to do, thats how you rope customers in and why they are called "stealerships". Audi's reputation for trash customer service continues. So not only do we have shit cars but the dealers always try to scapegoat to get out of admitting the fact that the cars are shit.

It is almost too good to be true - dealer replacing all your injectors and doing oil change after all for free. I mean I get it, they are a business and they have to pay rent, utilities, marketing, and salaries. I would however not expect it to be so dishonest.

[nycturks]

Plus, if audi were to warranty the engine in this case it would only cost them a few hundred bucks directly to the technician instead of thousands to a dealership. The whole thing is a scam and it's the reason i do all my own work.

Completely agree! Dealers are one of the shadiest businesses out there from sale to service to even parts. Audi makes shitty cars with shady sales/service people then refusing to take responsibility for anything goes wrong with their product&service. Audi CSR simply said, we will not cover consequential damages to the engine caused by faulty injectors due to vehicle is out of warranty. Should I check with another dealer in my area OR is that another waste of time?

[Spawne32]

The fact that the dealers are independently owned is the cause of 99% of problems with customer service in the automotive industry. The whole system needs to change. If the dealer was audi-owned he would have an answer on the spot, instead we work through a biased middle man who's trying to make a profit on both ends. Plus, if audi were to warranty the engine in this case it would only cost them a few hundred bucks directly to the technician instead of thousands to a dealership. The whole thing is a scam and it's the reason i do all my own work.

Sent from my SM-P550 using Audizine mobile app

It is almost too good to be true - dealer replacing all your injectors and doing oil change after all for free. I mean I get it, they are a business and they have to pay rent, utilities, marketing, and salaries. I would however not expect it to be so dishonest.

It's a problem with PEOPLE. Not just dealerships as a whole, because i've had a handful of dealerships that were perfectly helpful and cared about the customer and did the job right. But for some reason, the car business attracts the worst kinds of people, if its not sleazeballs who try to rip the customer off, its the $18/hr employee who acts like he owns the company and you are causing him to lose company profits by fixing your car.

I can be understanding to an extent that they probably get alot of scumbag customers at these places, but when your a person who just spent...40...50...60k on a vehicle, and that vehicle is falling apart, WHILE being under a warranty that you also paid for in addition to the vehicle, they should be doing everything within the best of their ability to make sure that vehicle runs properly and cover something that they guaranteed. The idea that dicking people over makes the company more money is a fallacy, providing good customer care brings back more repeat customers for business EVERYTIME and generates more revenue then dealers who act like douchebags.

When I first bought my car, used, i had to fight with the dodge dealer that sold it to me for a fuckin month over a leaky water pump before they finally agreed to send it to Audi themselves down the road for proper diagnosis and repair. All because they didnt want to shell out the grand it cost to fix the water pump, instead they argued with me for weeks saying it was residual coolant I kept seeing from when they did a hose change. Which miraculously kept reappearing after every time they powered washed the engine bay. And because of that sour taste it left in my mouth, I will never do business with them again, nor will anyone I know. So what did it accomplish pretending like the problem didnt exist? Ill never understand it.