EA888 Gen3 into B6, is it possible?

[BARRY]

Excluding engine mounts if custom need to be built...Would it be possible to install an EA888 Gen3 into the B6 chassis?

[SleeperAvant]

lol......

[Nollywood]

lol......

This is one of the reasons platforms either don’t advance, they stagnate.

Barry, anything’s possible, with enough money, determination and skill. I would say yes.

Years ago, it was virtually unheard of to see the 07K engine in anything other than a small chassis Audi or Volkswagen with a transverse engine layout.

Today, thanks to pioneers like Hank of Iroz, these potent motors can be installed in Audi models with longitudinaly-mounted engines, running through an 01E, 0A3, 012 or 02X.

[BARRY]

EA888 Gen3 is the best 4 cylinder turbo engine sourced from Europe...its a pretty valid question. Also, these motors are by comparison plentiful versus the 2.5 R5 20v TFSI which would require quite a bit of customization to fit. the 2.5 is an amazing engine.

The EA113 uses the same transmission bolt pattern as the 1.8t as does the RS4 and S4 V8's, parts across the VAG family for the most part are hugely compatible. Valid question still.

[BARRY]

https://stancedubs.bigcartel.com/pro...k2-3-4-chassis

Image of VW /Audi 2.0t tfsi/tsi, 3.6 VR6, TTRS, CR Tdi Swap Harness
$995.00
These harnesses are specifically tailor-made for the 2.0t tfsi/tsi, 3.6 VR6, TTRS, CR Tdi motors for all swaps into the following chassis: Mk2/3 (ce2) and the Mk4/TT.

They are made to run like OEM, utilizing the FSI injection.

Specification Requirements:
The FSI ECU needs to have the immo disabled as well as a swap file reflash. This is available from some tuners.

You need to use the FSI gas pedal.

Most importantly you’ll need the FSI chassis harness because the second ECU connector is one with the harness. In order for us to customize the harnesses, the original FSI chassis harness will need to be sent to us. (Please see forwarding address below.)

An RPM converter will need to be used for the rpm to work, unless you have a can-bus cluster (Mk4/TT).

[BARRY]

I believe this is in regards to EA113...the information is useful.

https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...1#post84439378

pete@integrated

We have one running on our engine dyno right now, which is essentially the same as wiring it into any old chassis... It's not too bad, no more difficult then a 1.8t swap into a mk2 etc. You will have to get some harnesses and strip them down, go through each wire / plug and figure out what is necessary and what is not, label them, put them aside, etc. Then figure out where the ECU needs switched power, constant power, and so forth. The MED9 ecu is pretty similar to the older ME7 box your car has so most of the functionality is already there. You would most likely want to get it immobilizer defeated, I don't think getting the MK4 ignition barrel and cluster to work with the immo in the MED9 box is a practical concept. Other option is to use a MK5 cluster and ignition, but that's not very easy either.

You better be thrifty with a bently manual wiring diagram because unlike the 1.8t swap there is no "how to" out there with wire colors etc already labeled out.

[BARRY]

The ECU for 1.8 TSI EA888 Gen1 is Bosch Motronic MED 17.5. The 1.8 TFSI engines for Audi applications (CABA, CABB, and CABD engines) feature the Fuel Stratified Injection (FSI) system and variable oil pump. The first generation of 1.8TSI EA888 was produced until 2010, but the second generation appeared already in 2008 (a year later after Gen1 was released).

[Charles.waite]

EA888.2 is what any longitudinal audi will have from the b8 generation. They have Valvelift and are different than the gen1 in that regard.

I would double check that harness is for the EA888, not the FSI 113 B7 engines. They're very different, and not really the same at all. The Gen3 is definitely superior to the Gen2, as it has port injectors for valve cleaning (and easy fueling additions!), manifold-less turbo, MUCH more robust fueling support, and, I believe, native E85 support. B7 engines use MED9, Gen1 & Gen2 EA888s use MED17 as you said but the Gen3 uses SIMOS not Motronic.

The EA888s really are solid engines. I mean, I DID have to replace the timing chain system on my wife's Q5 with only 65k miles on it....but its not the worst thing since at least they're on the front of the engine. Other than that, really great torque and responsiveness and much smoother than the B7 EA113 without the cam follower/fueling achilles heel of that platform.

Frankly, I'd assume there will need to be a boatload of custom wiring, and likely some retrofitting of newer electronics into the b6 stuff, like cluster/ECU/chassis modules, etc.

I would say it would be a solid swap, but getting it running reliably will be an endeavor. I'd honestly suggest, if you're putting in the effort, just do a 3.0t. Those engines freaking rip with very little downside. Why are you focusing on the 1.8t vs the more prevalent and more powerful 2.0t? They're basically the same thing...

[V70R]

Now this is a fun topic.

Considered this before I started stock-piling parts for my B5. Much as what Charles said, every time Ive driven an EA888 gen 2 Motor I realize how much more power there is under the curve, it’s awesome. Couple things-

EA888 motors do share the same bellhousing bolt pattern as our 06A 1.8T’s and all 4 cylinder water cooled engines since the late 70’s.

EA888 crankshafts use 8 bolts, so 06A and EA113 flywheels would not work. It is possible that 240mm transverse flywheels would work as an option- the 02Q manual transaxle has been used since the Mk5, and is still used on transverse EA888 applications at least through 2013. The B6 Passat flywheel interchanges to B7 A4’s from many different catalogs, so an 02X or 0A3 trans with this flywheel would be an option.

I’ll add some more stuff later, but it’s a feasible swap...just not a cheap one. I’d estimate it in the $6-7k range range if someone did all the labor.

[EuroxS4]

EA888 gen 1 engines are biggest piles of shit i've ever seen!!! That's why no one is swapping them. Besides oil consumption issues from 2009-2012 but more or less til 2014, turbocharger failure,timing chain failure/strech/jumped timing,constant coolant leak for water pumps,oil leaks, injector replacement, high fuel pressure pump replacement, Cam lobe migration and balance shaft seizing on the block are just some of the main reasons why this engine is awesome!!! NOT!! You can't rehone the block as it has a special nikasil so by doing so get ready to eat plenty of oil!! These engine are far from reliable. The later or more recent engines are a bit better. But yeah thats the main reason. How many EA888 engines you want?? I have 4 long blocks in my garage as spares for parts.

Gen 3 are better but still suffer from alot of similar issues.

For 6-7k I rather drop a 2.5 turbo engine into the car or a built 2.7 for that much money.

[Charles.waite]

My 2012 CAEB engine has had timing chain stretch and....thats it. The chains are a bitch, yea, but its been less problematic than my b7. I think I top up one quart over an 8k miles OCI? Not terrible. Its a gen2 valvelift engine, but still they're not that bad. With an IE tune its a damn fun engine and I'd love for it to replace my b7s stupid FSI nonsense.

[SleeperAvant]

For 6-7k I rather drop a 2.5 turbo engine into the car or a built 2.7 for that much money.

Or this … https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a2...ngine-pricing/

[EuroxS4]

Or this … https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a2...ngine-pricing/

For that price I’ll buy a whole car lol. Could probably scoop up a imported rs4 for that price.


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[BARRY]

https://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...-Avant-400awhp

3.0T in a B7...seems a shop in Canada has this swap locked down. I wonder what the cost is. I'd assume getting the EA888 Gen3 into the B6/B7 would follow the same exact process as the 3.0T as they both use the SIMOS engine computer. One of my buddies has a B8.5 S4 and has told me fuel economy with his car is not very good. Its rated at 18 city / 28 highway. The EA888 Gen2 in the current A4 is rated at up to 24 city / 32 highway. Would love to be in the 30's with a lighter chassis. I'd assume 34mpg would not be out of the question.

[Charles.waite]

https://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...-Avant-400awhp

3.0T in a B7...seems a shop in Canada has this swap locked down. I wonder what the cost is. I'd assume getting the EA888 Gen3 into the B6/B7 would follow the same exact process as the 3.0T as they both use the SIMOS engine computer. One of my buddies has a B8.5 S4 and has told me fuel economy with his car is not very good. Its rated at 18 city / 28 highway. The EA888 Gen2 in the current A4 is rated at up to 24 city / 32 highway. Would love to be in the 30's with a lighter chassis. I'd assume 34mpg would not be out of the question.

Their build is sorta janky with piggybacked ecus and immo defeat by sticking a key in a box in the trunk and stuff. It’s not the most seamless integration tbh but it runs fine evidently so that’s something.

[BARRY]

EA888 gen 1 engines are biggest piles of shit i've ever seen!!! That's why no one is swapping them. Besides oil consumption issues from 2009-2012 but more or less til 2014, turbocharger failure,timing chain failure/strech/jumped timing,constant coolant leak for water pumps,oil leaks, injector replacement, high fuel pressure pump replacement, Cam lobe migration and balance shaft seizing on the block are just some of the main reasons why this engine is awesome!!! NOT!! You can't rehone the block as it has a special nikasil so by doing so get ready to eat plenty of oil!! These engine are far from reliable. The later or more recent engines are a bit better. But yeah thats the main reason. How many EA888 engines you want?? I have 4 long blocks in my garage as spares for parts.

Gen 3 are better but still suffer from alot of similar issues.

For 6-7k I rather drop a 2.5 turbo engine into the car or a built 2.7 for that much money.

if someone offered a bolt in or fully installed 2.5L for 7k...i'm sure many of us would be ready to pay up. I know I would. California is touchy with modifications though, so for us out here, we're fairly limited as nothing can be modified pre-catalytic converter. So if your manifolds or catalytic converters are pointing the wrong way, you're a bit screwed unless you have enough room to snake things around post catalytic.

we all love the B6 and B7...that's why we're here. i'm onto my 4th B6 and not my last.

[EuroxS4]

if someone offered a bolt in or fully installed 2.5L for 7k...i'm sure many of us would be ready to pay up. I know I would. California is touchy with modifications though, so for us out here, we're fairly limited as nothing can be modified pre-catalytic converter. So if your manifolds or catalytic converters are pointing the wrong way, you're a bit screwed unless you have enough room to snake things around post catalytic.

we all love the B6 and B7...that's why we're here. i'm onto my 4th B6 and not my last.

07K engine are cheap roughly $5-700 long block with harness and ecu. See iron motorsports for custom parts to drop it into a b6.They have everything.


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[Charles.waite]

^^ Would be nice if they put parts they make on their website!

Iroz makes some crazy stuff for the I5 engines though.

[EuroxS4]

^^ Would be nice if they put parts they make on their website!

Iroz makes some crazy stuff for the I5 engines though.

They did have it all listed before,not sure if they moved away from it all but they made everything you need to drop it into a b5,b6,b7.

[BARRY]

with this info...the 2.5L will never be California BAR compliant.

https://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...1#post10918406

I am in the middle of an 07k swap into a b7. I will say its no cakewalk. not in any aspect possible.

where to begin.


Lets start talking about mounting it.

First off its a transverse engine, which means the oil pan doesn't have the cutout for the sway bar and subframe, so you will have to make one. Also keep in mind, oil pan on these engines is a two piece design. One is the tray, which is a shallow steel piece. The other piece is a tall thick piece of aluminum that is a girdle for the block, it has a windage tray built into it, as well as mounts for the oil pickup and a very important part which is the timing chain guide. So this is not as easy as it sounds. Luckily Iroz sells them. One thing I do not know, Do the oil pans from Iroz have the same bolt pattern as our transmissions? I mention this because currently my engine isn't bolted to my transmission by any of the bottom 3 oil pan bolts that are the smallest ones in the set of 11 for the transmission, the 07k just don't have holes there.

Next is mounting it in th engine. Oh the passengers side you have plenty of room, the starter bolts up if you cut out some of the aluminum backing plate on the engine, the started will bolt up just fine. However the only place to mount something to the engine is far in front, and the mount for this side is very far back, so you have to design a very long motor mount that stretches back and it sort of creates a long lever effect which makes building a reliable motor mount tough. On the drivers side, you will find that the oil filter housing is pretty much sitting on the motor mount bracket. This means you are going to have to relocate the oil filter and oil cooler. Yank em out. this side is much easier to build a regular mount for. Iroz sells a kit, and you can buy an oil filter relocation block which is really nice too.

On the transmission, there are about four bolt holes that line up to the 02x, Also the vacuum pump in the rear of the engine is placed rather low and hits our bellhousing, so be preppared to cut out a giant chunk of your bellhousing.

There is not enough space to run the stock exhaust manifold so youll have to buy a new one, preferablly a turbo manifold, why spend twice?

The radiator support will not fit either, you will have to relocate the fans to the outside or push out the whole unit about 2". The valve cover, and injector holder rail, also hit the hood so you have to grind that down, and get a new valve cover.

The intake manifold fits but the throttle body is angled right into the firewall, so you will need to build a longitudinal style manifold. or cut up your firewall and relocate your battery.

Wiring is not anywhere near as close to being as easy as a 2.7. Audi did a very nice job of making their engines modular, there are 4 plugs on an audi ECU that actually go into the cabin and to the dash, this is standard on most all audis so when you want to do an engine swap, its just moving a few pins. On the 07k, its a mess....We dismantled the entire dash, pulled out 20-30 lbs of wiring, and it took me like a week to do the wiring, and get all the schematics working.

Stock clutch should work, I haven't confirmed this but the bolt pattern is the same, and the engine seems to be in the exact same spot as the 2.0t, in relation to the transmission.

Then there is the issue of tuning it.

As far as turbo, an efr 8374 is what i have been recommended on all angles.

I had spoken with Eric Urness, APR's new calibration engineer who came from the evo performance side, and he had run like 4-5 of the EFR turbos and highly recommended either an efr 8374 or a gtx3676 or 82.
I spoke with integrated engineering who also recommended the 8374, and even Hank Iroz said it is one of his favorite turbos, making 700 whp, and seeing full spool by around 3700 rpm. Which is insane.

It appears that Iroz also sells a manifold that will work.

feel free to PM since I don't stop by the b6 section too often, that is how far i've gotten

[Charles.waite]

Yea Martin never came close to finishing that either.

[b6Hate4]

I know this isn’t what you want to hear, but man..test drive an S3. The whole car is just light years ahead of the B6 yet feels extremely similar. The handling, brakes, power and all the work is done. I get what you’re doing though and applaud any attempt you make to swap a B6.

Yes they do only come in DSG, and that was a deal breaker for me too until I drove one. It’s my first automatic car, and the damn thing is so fun to drive I don’t even care.

[EuroxS4]

I know this isn’t what you want to hear, but man..test drive an S3. The whole car is just light years ahead of the B6 yet feels extremely similar. The handling, brakes, power and all the work is done. I get what you’re doing though and applaud any attempt you make to swap a B6.

Yes they do only come in DSG, and that was a deal breaker for me too until I drove one. It’s my first automatic car, and the damn thing is so fun to drive I don’t even care.

S3?? Come on man, that thing is a vw with a haldex unit. I rather drive my ancient a4 than a new s3. Not impressed with the car in the least. Plus s3 is a 4 banger not a 5 cylinder. If there is any car that audi makes that I would never own the a3/s3 and q3 are in the top 2 for sure along with the TT.

[Charles.waite]

I don’t know, the new 3s are really good looking and a bet are a blast when tuned. They’re the right size too, the newer B8s and b9s are huge. The new A3 is like a reincarnation of the b5. And the RS3 is badass all around.

My sole issue with them is the absence of manuals. That’s 100% dealbreaker for me. Even driving one won’t convince me. But they’re sweet sweet cars. Someone needs to manual swap one, then we’d be in business. The only other car I’d consider right now is a Golf R because it has a manual. S3 is out even though it’s what I would want.

[BARRY]

if I was ever a person to ever start with a new car ... yes the RS3 and S3 are sweet rides... exterior is about the right size too...thing is inside the roominess does not compare for someone my height of 5'7-8", let alone my friends who are 6 foot who ride along on those 4 hour drives to the ski resorts.

RS3 Avant...sure it's getting closer but with 2 or so inches chopped from the rear leg room area.

Some people purposely buy cars with barely usable rear seats so they never have to be the one to pick up the keys...that I am not. I drive. I customize...I have that disease.

[b6Hate4]

S3?? Come on man, that thing is a vw with a haldex unit. I rather drive my ancient a4 than a new s3. Not impressed with the car in the least. Plus s3 is a 4 banger not a 5 cylinder. If there is any car that audi makes that I would never own the a3/s3 and q3 are in the top 2 for sure along with the TT.

Just a suggestion. Calm down.

I hear the same old “its a haldex” crap argument from every self proclaimed Audi elitist who has never driven an S3. For a daily driver or a lightly modded car it’s fine. I’m not new to Audi, nor quattro, and having driven my S3 this past winter it worked just fine and never missed a beat.

[Charles.waite]

Right?

By that metric, the b9 is just a Jetta because it’s not full mechanical AWD. Haldex is fine. And what does “it’s just a 4 banger” mean? Don’t we all drive and modify 4 bangers?

The ideal platform for me would be a b7/b8 avant with the engine from an RS3 and a 6mt. But that’s never going to happen.

[b6Hate4]

Right?

By that metric, the b9 is just a Jetta because it’s not full mechanical AWD. Haldex is fine. And what does “it’s just a 4 banger” mean? Don’t we all drive and modify 4 bangers?

The ideal platform for me would be a b7/b8 avant with the engine from an RS3 and a 6mt. But that’s never going to happen.

The Haldex of 2019 is also very different from the haldex of 2004. It’s proactive, using ESP and throttle position to engage it prior to any slippage. I can launch in a rain storm with the same amount of wheel spin as my B8 A4, B6 A4, B5 S4, or B6 S4. Unless you’re Ken Block you’ll be none the wiser.

[Matt Devo]

Right?

By that metric, the b9 is just a Jetta because it’s not full mechanical AWD. Haldex is fine.

The B9 A4 2.0TQ 6-sp feels exactly like a FWD Jetta, and it's not fine.

[b6Hate4]

The B9 A4 2.0TQ 6-sp feels exactly like a FWD Jetta, and it's not fine.

Exactly?

[Matt Devo]

Exactly?

no, in fact the clutch on the Jetta had better feel/modulation

[b6Hate4]

no, in fact the clutch on the Jetta had better feel/modulation

Oof. I cant speak for the new manuals, but that’s rough.

[Matt Devo]

Oof. I cant speak for the new manuals, but that’s rough.

yeah, I test drove one of the B9 Ultrasports, planning to buy one, but couldn't get over how bad it felt. Clutch was light as a feather and had no feel. Everything was dead/numb. And it felt nothing like a proper Torsen quattro vehicle.

[Charles.waite]

Yea that likely has more to do with the dumbing down of the b9 platform than drivetrain stuff specifically.

I know my wife’s q5 feels way less connected than my b7. It’s stable and a hell of a highway cruiser, but just not as engaging. Granted it’s a crossover but still.

[EuroxS4]

Just a suggestion. Calm down.

I hear the same old “its a haldex” crap argument from every self proclaimed Audi elitist who has never driven an S3. For a daily driver or a lightly modded car it’s fine. I’m not new to Audi, nor quattro, and having driven my S3 this past winter it worked just fine and never missed a beat.

Just so you know I drive those shitboxes on the daily and that’s all they are in comparison to every other product they make. But nice try. Never liked haldex never will. Mechanical awd > haldex any day of the week. If I wanted something with haldex I’d buy a vw and pay half the price.


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[b6Hate4]

Just so you know I drive those shitboxes on the daily and that’s all they are in comparison to every other product they make. But nice try. Never liked haldex never will. Mechanical awd > haldex any day of the week. If I wanted something with haldex I’d buy a vw and pay half the price.


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To each their own I suppose. After owning numerous heavily modded Audi models of every generation sans B7 I can say I dont feel a huge difference between them and the S3 for daily driving, or even when hammering on it for that matter, not that I’m sliding around driving like Ken Block but taking multiple trips in very snowy areas when I head up to the mountains to snowboard.

[EuroxS4]

To each their own I suppose. After owning numerous heavily modded Audi models of every generation sans B7 I can say I dont feel a huge difference between them and the S3 for daily driving, or even when hammering on it for that matter, not that I’m sliding around driving like Ken Block but taking multiple trips in very snowy areas when I head up to the mountains to snowboard.

Personally A3/S3 is nothing special. Its the cheapest audi they make and truth be told its more vw than audi. Not a bad ride for someone looking to get into a audi but for someone thats been with the brand for some time and having driven just about everything audi has to offer A3 definitely isnt anywhere on my list of cars to own. B8 a4 were ok but not great. I'd rather drive that as least it has full time awd and not a haldex system and can be had in a stick shift.

[V70R]

Just a suggestion. Calm down.

I hear the same old “its a haldex” crap argument from every self proclaimed Audi elitist who has never driven an S3. For a daily driver or a lightly modded car it’s fine. I’m not new to Audi, nor quattro, and having driven my S3 this past winter it worked just fine and never missed a beat.

Haldex is awesome. Both my old S60R and V70R were the older style Gen III Haldex and I got around in our snow just as well as my Quattro cars. Both also had better hand-cal’d fuel economy than my B5 or USP, and actually made power. Just as Charles said, the S3 is an awesome car for the money, and is an awesome balance between size and power Audi has right now.