Haltech Elite 1500 + VW/Audi 1.8T AWP ONLY

[Dmnted]

Hi All,

I am at the pointy end of my engine build (thread here http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/827764-Aussie-03-A4-Build and considering stand alone rather than Eurodyne Maestro after the engine run in.

I have searched and found this plug in ECU from Haltech however, I can not find anyone that is running the Haltech 1500 plug in on an A4 B6.
http://www.haltech.com/product/ht-150970-elite-1500-vw-audi-1-8t-awp-only-2001-2006/

I have looked into the link ECU and after some custom changes for the fans and thermostat, it will end up being more costly than than the plug and play haltech.
I am just not sure if it will be actually "plug and Play" for my application, so I thought I'd post for some feedback.

The Haltech Elite 1500 + VW/Audi 1.8T does specifically say AWP ONLY although, the compatible cars are listed as:

Volkswagen Golf Mk4 GTI - 1.8 Turbo DBW MY01-06
Volkswagen Bora / Jetta - 1.8 Turbo DBW MY01-06
Volkswagen Beetle - 1.8 Turbo DBW MY01-06
Volkswagon Polo GTI - 1.8 Turbo DBW MY01-06
Audi A3 - 1.8 Turbo DBW MY01-06
Audi A4 - 1.8 Turbo DBW MY01-06
Audi Quattro Sport - 1.8 Turbo DBW MY01-06
Audi TT MK1 (8N) - 1.8 Turbo DBW MY01-06
Skoda Octavia VRS - 1.8 Turbo DBW MY01-06
Skoda Seat Leon - 1.8 Turbo DBW MY01-06
Skoda Toledo - 1.8 Turbo DBW MY01-06

I have an 03 A4 Quattro (base model)
I have found a response from Haltech saying it will work, if the ECU pinouts and the canbus comms are the same as the AWP.

Does anyone have any insights into the AWP pinouts vs AMB?
My car is a BFB but I have swapped an AMB ECU into my car and successfully flashed a stage 1 tune in the past.

I assume the canbus should all work the same or am I way off the mark?

The only thing I can think of that may be an issue is our electro-thermostat in the B6
I'm guessing it might run a bit hotter without the heater opening the thermostat sooner and maybe a CEL but the Haltech wouldn't be looking for it?
I haven't the slightest how the canbus system works

Is anyone is running this ECU or might be able to give me some guidance?

Cheers!

[BARRY]

you will need to replace your thermostat with a manual thermostat as the Haltech does not have the function to control the electronic heater within the AMB's thermostat.

that is the only thing...nothing else would be an issue. I'd assume wiring outside of thermostat will be the same, but I'm not an expert here.

tuning the Haltech is much easier than tuning with Maestro. Haltech uses 1 to 1 mapping whereas Maestro uses multiple maps and calculations which determine what the computer delivers. I've used Haltech many times and do enjoy the ease of tuneability.

CANBUS with newer version of Haltech are programmable...Haltech upfront does not develop CANBUS commands. I don't recall which Haltech devices allow you to map(code, writing code) your own CANBUS functions.

correction...MOTEC allows custom CANBUS function coding. Haltech, you'll have to work with their developers to develop CANBUS communication and function. FYI, each manufacturer has their own protocols and functions utilized through CANBUS. You can purchase a CANBUS snooper/output module if you plan to identify sensors, functions, etc communicated through CANBUS.

here is a device that has been developed for 2008 and newer vehicles to assist with monitoring CANBUS to log functions/actions.
https://comma.ai/shop/products/panda-obd-ii-dongle


Pi Snoop is a software tool used for calibration, diagnostics, measurement, and data acquisition of embedded controls systems.

It allows the user to interact with software while it runs in real time on an embedded system or electronic control unit (ECU). It uses a communications link to gain access to the memory of the ECU for read and write operations. It also loads information about the program running on the ECU so that it is aware of the memory layout, functions and variables present in the ECU software.
https://www.pi-innovo.com/product/pisnoop/

CanKing for Windows is a CAN bus monitor and general-purpose diagnostic tool. It is especially suited for interactive development work. CAN messages can be easily sent and the corresponding impact on the target module observed.
https://www.kvaser.com/canking/

[hightime80]

Oh hot Damn that is so above my pay grade in terms of knowledge....and I was proud of myself for wrestling my old ko3 out of the car lol.

[Dmnted]

Thanks Barry, some great info there.

I wonder if a colder thermostat can be fitted to the standard electro-thermostat housing, or a B5 A4 thermostat retrofit?
The machining in the block looks different on the AEB to the AMB from photos I can find.

From my understanding, our mapped thermostat has a mechanical element that opens at a set temperature of 100 degrees Celsius. The thermostat housing also has a heating element, that the computer uses to open the thermostat earlier for emissions purposes, by heating the coolant locally.
So fitting a colder thermostat should null and void the need for the mapped thermostat that the haltech doesn't have maps for.
It will effect emissions on the car, but that is out the window anyway with Haltech.

The notes for Haltech Elite say The CAN dash support was developed on a 2003 VW Beetle - other models may not be supported or have reduced dash functionality.
I am hoping I wouldn't need to do any CAN coding and the dash would be close to functioning as it normally would.
Surely the can bus protocol VAG group used should be pretty close for the same year model beetle and A4 (Both 2003).

Does anyone know of a B5 thermostat and housing would fit in the B6 or a lower temp thermostat can be fitted into the B6 housing?
My thermostat housing is down with my engine builder so I can't have a good look at it right now.

[Wet0willy01]

I've opened up the awm block you accept the amb thermostat. An awm thermostat and housing should fit no problem.

[Wet0willy01]

I am curious about this as well... keeping an eye on this thread. I want to contact them about this because I have a few questions myself.

[Dmnted]

Thanks Wet0Willy, you have confirmed what I thought would work.
I must have spent at least 10 hours searching parts yesterday and comparing.

It looks like the B5 A4 Thermostat housing (06B121121L) will mate up with the lower radiator hose in the same position.
The AWM coolant return hard pipe (06B121065AC) looks to snake around and connect into the block where our J plug is.

I found this photo showing both on the AWM, Dont take any notice of the circles
Awm_thermostat.jpeg

The return line for the oil cooler is in a slightly different position on the hard pipe, so an AWM oil cooler return hose is needed too (06B121058)

The B6 connection between the coolant supply hard pipe and the top of the B6 electro-thermostat, could just be capped at the hard pipe or possibly run the B5 supply pipe.
I found thermostats in 80, 82 and 87 Degree Celsius options.
Anyone have an idea on what the optimal temp to run would be?
I would assume having a low temp could mess with fueling with the ECU thinking it is still in cold start?

Hopefully that solves the B6 thermostat issue for standalone

Apparently the standard B6 radiator fans are an issue on the Link ECU, so I would like to verify they will work with Haltech or find a solution for that too.

[BARRY]

Radiator fans are not an issue...or should not be. If anything you'll simply need a rewire.

I have never found the need to utilize a lower temperature thermostat other than factory. even in race situations. modern engines have optimized coolant flow and usually an upgrade to the radiator would suffice. If you live in a hot climate and plan to drive hard, lower could benefit you. With Haltech, as with most standalones, you will specify when additional injection addition stops at what engine coolant temperature. I believe the number for the aftermarket thermostat is when the thermostat begins to open, but it has been a while since I've looked into that.

what you have to be worrisome is that, if you are over cooling your engine, internal combustion will not be optimized and increased cylinder wear can occur. If you really want to just avoid all of this, you can look into running of an electric water pump, Haltech will be able to have full control of this and you will be able to bypass your factory water pump as well as thermostat entirely. Flow and temperature management will be handled by the ECU.

[EuroxS4]

According to some literature the canbus support with this ecu is based of a 2003 vw beetle. Not sure if that helps any.

[Dmnted]

Thanks Barry,

I am hoping for the ECU pinout to be the same so there is no rewiring required.
With the J293 - Coolant Fan Control Module, controlling the electric cooling fan, and the ECM-(J220) sending the fan signal via single wire PMW feed, it shouldn't be a big job anyway.
I know Haltech can control fans with a PWM duty cycle based on Temp.

I am in Sydney Australia so it can get hot, well for me anyway (high 30's early 40's Celsius).
I'll do some more research on the effects of running the engine cooler.

Haltech_fan.jpg

Cheers EuroS4, fingers crossed the canbus protcol doesn't change too much between models.

[Dmnted]

Hi All,

Just an update on this.

I have been in contact with Haltech on support for the B6 1.8T platform.
They have a record of one A4 using the plug and play kit however didn't specifically mention if it was a B6.
I have asked if the model year was recorded.
The customer reported that the car ran, but got an ABS light.
Their suspicion is that this is related to the CAN, as no support has ever been done for it.
The engine ran and the car drove however, no further feedback was given.

I have offered my car for them to develop the additional support needed, to correctly run the B6 1.8T Platform including the electro-thermostats.

They have a heavy workload at the moment however, they are considering it for a few months time.

[BARRY]

will you still move forward with the B5 thermostat mod? or will you wait until they can develop the mapping for electronic thermostat?

[Dmnted]

I'll have to wait Barry and leave the OEM thermostat in place.
If I convert to the B5 Thermostat, they wont be able to develop a true plug and play for the B6.
I'd love to simply plug it in, load the base map and commence tuning with all the standard systems working, including canbus support.

[Wet0willy01]

Please do

[BARRY]

cool! hopefully they're able to get this going soon! tuning a haltech is many times simpler than Maestro. hopefully also full control of N75 for boost control! Haltech does support boost control mapping in general.

[Dmnted]

They dropped me a email last night to contact them when I am up and running after my build.
They said they will see how they are positioned at that time, and seem to be genuinely interested in helping out.
I will keep you posted, but it will be a few months before I get my engine back from the builder and everything back in the car.
I'm aiming for late July early August.

[Wet0willy01]

Updates?

[Dmnted]

Sorry Barry, no updates yet.
It is going to take me a little while before I am in a position to progress with this.

I have had a few delays with my build but I am not too far away from starting it now.
I then need to get some tyres and rego because it's been off the road for a few years.
I am going to run the engine in using Eurodyne then move onto Haltech.

I did find a guy on the Haltech Forum who has an Elite 2500 running with a SEAT Leon 1.8T with Haldex.
In the end he had it running standalone with tac , no oil warning and the ABS/ESP light off.
There was an issue with the Canbus wire which he had to cut and bypass.
Not sure if the Leon has our type of thermostat though?

https://forums.haltech.com/viewtopic.php?t=14072

[Wet0willy01]

https://www.haltech.com/wp-admin/adm...c8b7fab07&op=1

There doesn’t seem to be a designated output for the thermostat. Not to say you possibly couldn’t control it with a spare output or reassign one designated for the n249 or n112. I’m also curious about the ability to use another analog input for the second knock sensor instead of going to the 2500 for it.

[Wet0willy01]

Based on the ECU comparison chart the 1500 is only capable of one knock sensor.

[joshkntz]

Why not go for the TTLink ecu?

[Dmnted]

Why not go for the TTLink ecu?

Hey Josh, the TTlink ECU requires a custom setup for the B6 ECU Controlled thermostat and a few other things, so it is not Plug N Play either.

You are right WettWilly, only one knock sensor on the 1500 although it is not too much different than the 2500.
I am hoping they can develop the plug n play so that end users can use either ECU depending on their budget.

[B6A4GT3076R]

Hey Josh, the TTlink ECU requires a custom setup for the B6 ECU Controlled thermostat and a few other things, so it is not Plug N Play either.
.

Not really. The ECU can (and will) control everything needed.

A 'traditional' thermostat can be retrofitted to remove the heater element.

[Dmnted]

Not really. The ECU can (and will) control everything needed.

A 'traditional' thermostat can be retrofitted to remove the heater element.

Correct, but it is not a plug and play for the car as it stands.
Is the manual conversion for the thermostat that i mentioned earlier in the thread, the only thing required to run the TTLink ?

[B6A4GT3076R]

Correct, but it is not a plug and play for the car as it stands.
Is the manual conversion for the thermostat that i mentioned earlier in the thread, the only thing required to run the TTLink ?

Nothing on these cars is truly PnP.

(1) You'd need to setup a PWM for the radiator fans x2 (1x main, 1x supplementary for AC) or remove this system and revert to a traditional relay-type switch controlled by the ECU. I went with the latter, removing the failure prone PWM controller for the fans in the B6.
(2) You'd want to install a wideband O2 separate from the factory one. Reason? None of the "supposed" PnP ECU's have the factory O2 sensor(s) wired in. The downstream (narrowband) O2 sensor is useless. Remove this. The Upstream (downpipe) wideband is useless when you install your own aftermarket wideband O2 with controller.

None is truly PnP. There's always an element of wiring (additional) to make use of the available functions for both Link & Haltech...

The Haltech unit is a patch-between style setup (loom converter between ECU and actual car loom), whereby the Link is directly plugin to the existing car loom.

Either option should have CANBUS signals sorted. I know with experience that the Link unit has 2x types of VWAG CANBUS signals available.

[EuroxS4]

Depending on what your budget is . I think this is the best way to go without having to run a all new harness. So this adapter harness and their ecu.


https://www.maxxecu.com/products/pluginecu/audi_me75

[J_L]

Depending on what your budget is . I think this is the best way to go without having to run a all new harness. So this adapter harness and their ecu.


https://www.maxxecu.com/products/pluginecu/audi_me75

That thing look plug and play to me, no need to modify the coolant system

[BARRY]

MaxxECU doesn't list that it controls thermostat heater element.

if it does, this maybe a viable solution as it does support Flex Fuel as well. I really am a person who needs real time map editing.

[Dmnted]

When I have time to progress this, I will pass all these comments onto Haltech to see what they can do.
I am guessing they have the ability to run all the standard sensors and thermostat and the only change needed would be to tapp their air temps sensor in.

[BARRY]

Haltech has the ability to utilize factory temperature sensors. Calibration will need to be completed to ensure appropriate functionality.

Yeah, the IAT sensor is located just after the throttle body on the manifold on our 1.8Ts.

[J_L]

MaxxECU doesn't list that it controls thermostat heater element.

if it does, this maybe a viable solution as it does support Flex Fuel as well. I really am a person who needs real time map editing.

voilà

[BARRY]

photo doesn't show.

[BARRY]

well...in 6 months or so...if Haltech is working fully...It would sway me to possibly move away from Maestro. If not, I'd be interested in a group buy for the MaxxECU.

don't really enjoy the mystery tuning of Maestro. you map things hoping the computer calculates what you want, but doesn't always.

[Wet0willy01]

I just hate my throttle body limp mode that doesn’t allow me to keep boost between shifts.

[Wet0willy01]

MaxxECU doesn't list that it controls thermostat heater element.

http://www.maxxecu.com/webhelp/wirin...udi_me_75.html

Thermostat control, PWM fan outputs... looks like it’s all covered.

[joshkntz]

http://www.maxxecu.com/webhelp/wirin...udi_me_75.html

Thermostat control, PWM fan outputs... looks like it’s all covered.

What's the difference between the BEX and AMB motor because this seems like it could be the way to go.

[EuroxS4]

What's the difference between the BEX and AMB motor because this seems like it could be the way to go.

everything you need to know about BEX:

https://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...rmation-Thread


It looks like its just software differences in ecu and bigger injectors and turbo. More or less a 225hp tt engine just in a a4 .

[Wet0willy01]

still investigating the MaxxECU. Found this listed on their website-

"•Audi A4 (EU spec), (ECU number 8E0 909 518 AS/0261 208 500) <-- AC fan might not work, under investigation."

http://maxxecu.com/webhelp/can-oem_a...1_8t_me75.html

[Stroked1.8t]

For 2 years my setup is no maf, gm map sensor, no N249, no n75, no cat, no rear O2 sensor, OE thermostat housing, OE fans and controller, retained cruise control, retained CAN communication, gained 2 step, launch controll, edit everything. Every light on my dash board is off.
http://www.ignitronecu.com/

[BARRY]

For 2 years my setup is no maf, gm map sensor, no N249, no n75, no cat, no rear O2 sensor, OE thermostat housing, OE fans and controller, retained cruise control, retained CAN communication, gained 2 step, launch controll, edit everything. Every light on my dash board is off.
http://www.ignitronecu.com/

wow...how have you not shared this with any of us before. seems like the best option for us as it is purpose built for the 1.8t. i really wished this was available way way back then as so i didn't have to purchase Maestro. tuning actual standalones are so much faster and easier for me. i do have to say though, these last few weeks I have learned lots about Maestro. it still isn't my first choice, but i could tune it really well as of now. i'm currently working on lean burn tuning on my vehicle to see if there is any benefit.

AUXILIARY DEVICES
Fuel tank ventilation (EVAP)
Secondary air injection
Continued coolant circulation pump drive
Coolant fan control
Electronic thermostat control