Who Sells The Best Stage 3 Setup That Is Smog Legalish For CA

[sidewayzgt]

I’ve been out of the B5 scene for years and am just getting back into it. It will happen after I get rid of or trade my E55. This will be my third stage 3 but first car that I am looking to build myself.

Unfortunately I live in So Cal and emissions are tough! I know that it’s almost impossible to have monster HP in a B5 and have it smog legal. I’ve had 1 K04 car and 1 Frankenturbo car and the F21 car ruled. Now I see that there are Tial and Garrett turbo setups as well. I am looking to do forged rods and pistons. Who sells the best stage 3 kit for the B5 S4 these days that can be semi smog legal for CA? I’m looking for the 500-700hp range. Thanks

[MetalMan]

You know it already, but there's no such thing as "semi smog legal". It's either legal or it isn't... stock or CARB-legal cats are required among other things to be legal, and I'm inclined to believe those won't be good for 500-700hp.
So you're surely suggesting a setup that won't get you into trouble between the biennial smog tests.

I'm unaware if there are any catted DP options which will support 500-700hp, but I'd guess there could be some high $$$ options from Europe as they seem to lean more toward HFC than catless compared to American B5'rs. I suppose you could always chop and weld HFCs into catless downpipes.

You'll also need a stock-looking breather system, which could be a challenge if yours won't be up to the task of 500-700hp worth of crankcase ventilation needs.

You should be able to run stock fuel lines and rails, and injectors shouldn't be an issue of looking non-stock.

RS4 airbox will be necessary, RS4 MAF too?

Fortunately the intercoolers are nice and hidden, so no guesswork there.

I'd suggest something like an APR bipipe instead of upgraded bipipes + silicone TBB, for the sake of stealth.

Tuning could be important; if any emissions systems are touched in the tune, your car's ability to properly pass OBDII readiness could be impacted. Something to keep in mind.

[Turbo Ride]

My Stage 3 2000 car (which is actually for sale btw) has a custom cat set up - factory cats that I had welded into the system (which is F21s to AWE downpipes to Milltek Dual). It is 360-380 whp on a dyno here in Denver that is known to be pretty conservative. Not sure if you are looking for 500-700 whp or at crank? At 370 whp that is probably 400-450ish crank - not super far from 500. add boost? The car passes Denver emissions (probably stricter than most cities, done on a dyno at varying rpms) with flying colors - like it's not even close. Not sure how much more stringent CA emissions are - or all the other bs you have to deal with out there - but just a data point (and small shameless plug for my car :) re: power and cats.

Brandon
'00 S4
'16 Allroad
'91 911 Turbo

[MetalMan]

The car passes Denver emissions (probably stricter than most cities, done on a dyno at varying rpms) with flying colors - like it's not even close. Not sure how much more stringent CA emissions are - or all the other bs you have to deal with out there

Interestingly for post-1999 vehicles in CA, they don't test for emissions at the tail pipe. They rely on the ECU and its emissions functions instead. Also they do a thorough visual check, which ultimately is what most of us are worried about... we could be passing an actual sniffer test (if there were one for 2000+ cars), but fail the visual check for non-compliant cats. Same goes for the air intake; non-stock-looking air intakes will be grounds for failure (unless they're CARB-approved). I specifically bought a CARB-approved intake for my Corvette for that reason.

[TylerT]

Dirty smog solves this problem.

[CELison]

Get a set of mid pipes with cats. Swap them in when you have to do Smog. And just have your rear 02s coded out. No CEL, and you'll pass a sniffer and visual inspection obviously.

[MetalMan]

Get a set of mid pipes with cats. Swap them in when you have to do Smog. And just have your rear 02s coded out. No CEL, and you'll pass a sniffer and visual inspection obviously.

Those mid pipes will need stock/approved cats to "legally" pass CA visual emissions check. And if rear O2s are coded out, that needs to be done the right way so that CA OBDII test machines don't see the ECU as tampered.

[CELison]

Damn. We do OBDII scans too in pa but coded out works just fine here. Cali is rough.

[Gujuhammer]

Damn. We do OBDII scans too in pa but coded out works just fine here. Cali is rough.

Same in IL.

Put V-bands in and swap exhaust when needed?

[dannyn424]

i think you just need an airbox intake, delete emissions coding with readiness set, and downpipes with magnaflow cats which are carb approved....

[julex]

and if you really don't like to run cats, then make two sets of midpipes... one with proper CARB cats, one without and flanges on both sides. For when you need the smog done, just swap in catted midpipes and that's that.

[CELison]

and if you really don't like to run cats, then make two sets of midpipes... one with proper CARB cats, one without and flanges on both sides. For when you need the smog done, just swap in catted midpipes and that's that.

Edit: nvm

[landfill]

What Julex said but also in Cali
they’re very strict on the visual
inspection. Everything has to
look factory or be CARB approved.
The ecu also can’t show any signs
of reprogramming.

Another option atleast back in 2015-16
was to find a dirty smog shop but they
will ask you for a decent amount of
money to pass your car. I don’t know
if that’s a viable option anymore.

- - - Updated - - -

3rd option is leave commiefornia.

[protocol_droid]

What Julex said but also in Cali
they’re very strict on the visual
inspection. Everything has to
look factory or be CARB approved.
The ecu also can’t show any signs
of reprogramming.

Another option atleast back in 2015-16
was to find a dirty smog shop but they
will ask you for a decent amount of
money to pass your car. I don’t know
if that’s a viable option anymore.

- - - Updated - - -

3rd option is leave commiefornia.

definitely important for everything to look stock to pass visual. i took my stg3 to an smog station with blue lobster claws and the guy said to me ..." we cant pass you visually". I laughed in disbelief over a lobster claw silicon hose violating visual smog. insanity. under my hood the engine bay looks stock as a result.

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[landfill]

^^^ Political BS. I’ve seen
cops in Cali write multiple
tickets to the same person
over supposed mods.

The future looks grim for most
as the green movement barrels
forward. Last I heard in 10 years
we won’t have airplanes or cows
that fart. If saving the planet means
losing all enjoyment in anything
fossil fueled then count me out.

[james 408]

smog legal cat, just leave it in who cares about 10 unicorns. Tune that isn't retarded, you good. It's only illegal if they can prove it's illegal. This is primarily measured by chrominess of the engine bay, see fast and the furious for education training.

Just don't go in there trying to pull one over on the smog guy, and maybe pick a guy that isn't particular about asking too much. For a lot of 'em... "is it stock" is enough of a test for them to fail you. Others take a more liberal approach to the language. There isn't enough case law to separate the two, just don't start bragging about your mods when the cop asks. Akbar please.

It's just smog, visual (including cat ID), and readiness... the preobdII has some other checks on basic function depending on the year, but that's really it. The hillarious part is this catches up totally normal nothings, like the computer not resetting on the readiness after a service. Stock for stock. Now if you get like state reff'd, I dunno that process... you done f'd up though or met a real winner in a uniform, I'll tell you that. I'd imagine it'd be comedy, and just don't say anything stupid.

What I'm saying ultimately is that 500-700 might not happen fully under the literal interpretation. Cat alone gas emissions depending on the tester's right foot and the tune, I mean the europe $$$ suggestion is just illegal on its face even if it's better -- you're playing absurdity. Just do something reasonable in the middle ground, don't have a loud exhaust and all your intake/exhaust stuff visually cop wants to punch you, keep the exhaust and driving behavior reasonable, and talk to any mechanic I know, they'll make it happen.

Actually, now that I think about it, there are laws surrounding alternative fuels you may be able to entertain. It is california after all, if there isn't an exception for the absurd, you're not doing it right.

[Calif_Kid]

I'm located in Norcal (SF Bay Area) and I also suggest having the top of the engine and the intercoolers look basically stock (so no FMIC). I used to have a really nice 2001.5 AWE stage3 S4, and the top of the engine looked completely stock except for the RS4 Y-pipe. The engine originally had AWE manifolds (headers), but when they cracked, I switched to Vast ported manifolds. None of the smog shops I took it to ever bothered to check the cats/downpipes. Originally, they used to check tailpipe emissions and the car passed OK, but when they just checked for readiness, I just made sure those were OK before taking the car in. Some of the smog shops around you might do a visual check, and others might not bother. Personally, I found a cheap smog shop (thru Craigslist) near me, and he really liked the S4, and I even mentioned that it had larger turbos and intercoolers etc., but that didn't bother/concern him at all, so I went to his smog shop for basically all of my smog tests as he was fast, cheap, and didn't do a visual check.

I eventually sold the S4, and still have a 2001 A6 2.7T manual, and I had to take it to a different smog shop recently, and the guy was kind of nuts - he had a letter from say 10 years ago about doing a visual for any smoke coming from a car, so he took say 30' to warm up my car, rev'ing it with a large stick while he was at the rear of the car looking for any smoke from the exhaust pipes. I'll never ever go back to that guy again, as all he really had to do, was to check readiness which should take say 5-10', and send me on my way. Anyway, having the engine look stockish from the top (so probably standard airbox maybe with Darintake mod) would probably be best, and hopefully find a smog shop near you that just checks readiness and doesn't spend time on the visual checks, and if you find a shop like that, then keep going back to them. - Jim

[james 408]

The alternative fuel laws appear unchanged. Seen this done before, but now that I think back on it there's a cutoff date and I think it was diesel? I think generally you contact them for an exemption, not sure on the the specifics... an EO process for instance I imagine costs money. There's rules that aren't readily available without a few tries in the search engine or a lot of skim reading, beyond what's listed below. Seems others were subjected to smog on E85... successfully:

https://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...-smog-with-e85

Otherwise you do the wink and nod... You could spend all day trying to figure out exactly what is/is not legal, but tbh you're playing in a grey area. As long as you check the boxes that are tested for, you're good. The reason most guys wouldn't care to visual inspect things like downpipes/turbos/injectors is I would imagine the law and caselaw is not specific enough to declare something illegal under the language they use -- and more specifically, towards the smog guys getting popped. The cat, for instance, is a different matter... it's been made clear. As have the headers. The exhaust itself has somewhat separate rules under the cvc (similar to oem is the general language, with other constraints). Turbos fall into the same category of no mans land, but generally speaking, you want to change it, you probably need an EO or some manufacturer to list it as a replacement part for that engine, based on interpolating language and intent haphazardly under the general guidelines they set out below. In fact I know I've seen dozens of turbo kits that have gone through this process, just not for our platform.

Links: here's the branch that generally handles the carb certification stuff (like cats) if you wanna dig around:
E85: https://www.arb.ca.gov/fuels/altfuels/e85/e85.htm
The general lunacy: https://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/operators.htm
Basically any emissions related component needs to either be a replacement part "meeting OEM specs", or explicitly shown through the executive order process (i.e. cats marked carb legal, E-rod, many tuner's for other platforms, etc.): https://ww3.arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermkt/replace.htm Check the boxes, and you good. Keep in mind this isn't the only source of regulation, there are non-smog rules as well (generally under the CalVehCode rules) including noise, and features, for instance on your exhaust. Again this is not tested anywhere, and the cop will just write the ticket without gathering any evidence (i.e. freebie in court, just say the state has no evidence of a crime -- best to follow the law here, but I've gotten a ticket for that even though I'm compliant, cop was just retarded). Tuning needs to be on the stock chip... just read.

As for tuner's, I don't know any that have gone through the carb certification process on anything for our platform. They label everything offroad only somewhere in the fine print, and most likely don't understand a damn thing beyond recommending a hotsmog -- some will even overtly lie to you about the legality of their system while each individual explaining this to you has no friggen clue what the law is.

Generally all these rules and the ARB's ability to regulate/enforce it are granted under the CVC or other relevant statute. Under the law, there are rules that require you to register your car in California, and exemptions/requirements NOT to do so depending on the facts and circumstances, the individual's residency, who properly owns title, your purpose/duration in california, etc etc. Generally most cops have no friggen clue here, and will cite some x number of day requirement and erroneously conclude your a resident based on no data whatsoever, and therefore determine you're subject to these laws due to residency.

Disclaimer: this is not legal advice, and cannot be applied to any set of facts and circumstances. This information cannot be used to break the law, and I am not advocating for that, quite the opposite. This is a tangled web of obscure rules, and I am merely trying to share what I can gather in a car forum.

[james 408]

The process to get a part approved, more specifically:

https://ww3.arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermkt/forms/forms.htm

Basically they try to shift the control of this stuff to manufacturers... but most tuners have done the opposite and just deliberately misinform consumers and don't bother doing independent lab testing/submitting process. As a result, odds are most customers don't even realize they're breaking the law, and certain tuners prefer it that way. I know I for one was never told they were doing illegal modifications, nobody said a thing at any point in the transaction, and I received nothing labeling anything offroad use only. Even for cats, they'll 'our downpipes have passed' their way around the issue rather than just calling it like it is. They've probably got the fine print on the invoice or pamphlet in the box, somewhere, and are going to throw you right under the bus should something go wrong to boot.

So whatever you decide, you've got company.

[coolgraymemo]

I'm located in Norcal (SF Bay Area) and I also suggest having the top of the engine and the intercoolers look basically stock (so no FMIC). I used to have a really nice 2001.5 AWE stage3 S4, and the top of the engine looked completely stock except for the RS4 Y-pipe. The engine originally had AWE manifolds (headers), but when they cracked, I switched to Vast ported manifolds. None of the smog shops I took it to ever bothered to check the cats/downpipes. Originally, they used to check tailpipe emissions and the car passed OK, but when they just checked for readiness, I just made sure those were OK before taking the car in. Some of the smog shops around you might do a visual check, and others might not bother. Personally, I found a cheap smog shop (thru Craigslist) near me, and he really liked the S4, and I even mentioned that it had larger turbos and intercoolers etc., but that didn't bother/concern him at all, so I went to his smog shop for basically all of my smog tests as he was fast, cheap, and didn't do a visual check.

I eventually sold the S4, and still have a 2001 A6 2.7T manual, and I had to take it to a different smog shop recently, and the guy was kind of nuts - he had a letter from say 10 years ago about doing a visual for any smoke coming from a car, so he took say 30' to warm up my car, rev'ing it with a large stick while he was at the rear of the car looking for any smoke from the exhaust pipes. I'll never ever go back to that guy again, as all he really had to do, was to check readiness which should take say 5-10', and send me on my way. Anyway, having the engine look stockish from the top (so probably standard airbox maybe with Darintake mod) would probably be best, and hopefully find a smog shop near you that just checks readiness and doesn't spend time on the visual checks, and if you find a shop like that, then keep going back to them. - Jim

I had a shop turn away my bone stock C4/urS6 Avant because it was a "Gray Market" car. He opened the driver's door and cited a sticker saying "Made in Germany" as the reason that the car was "Gray Market." I ended up stopping at one of those drive thru smog stations that had me in and out within 15-minutes.

[landfill]

Your suggestions are like trying
to argue law with the police. That’s
a battle you won’t win. The fact
is most leo’s and smog shops out
your way take this BS very seriously
nothing can look modified on the
visual. If something is modified it
has to have the carb approved stamp
on it or is therefore illegal in CA.

You can’t have any check engine or
other warning lights on. You can’t have
tampered with ecu if they can somehow
uncover that. You have to pass a sniffer.

Is there some places that are more lenient
or don’t follow all the rules sure. Such is
life. It’s still an inconvenience and a load
of bullshit. Most smog shops escpecially
if they’re STAR approved and state approved
they are most likely smog nazis.

You say shit’s easy peazy but there’s two
guys in here who already stated they were
failed over the most petty of BS. One being
a blue silicone lobster claw. Most of the star
places have this approach.

[landfill]

@memo it’s funny about the story
with the urS cars going to smog.
They all ask what goes to that
port on the wastegate cap. When
you tell them nothing it’s just there
they look very confused.

[james 408]

the beauty of enforcement. Most likely you just get turned away if they have a problem at the smog level, in my experience. I guarantee you can smog anything though if you want to, see it all the time, still. It's so absurd even cars I'm 99% sure would pass most inspections still pay for a hotsmog just cause they don't really understand. Even seen straightedges with stock vehicles that can't get their computer reset asking for a recommend. Black market is alive and well.

[coolgraymemo]

@memo it’s funny about the story
with the urS cars going to smog.
They all ask what goes to that
port on the wastegate cap. When
you tell them nothing it’s just there
they look very confused.

That's exactly what made that technician suspicious.

[Calif_Kid]

You can’t have any check engine or
other warning lights on. You can’t have
tampered with ecu if they can somehow
uncover that. You have to pass a sniffer.

As far as I understand the smog tests here in California, just having no check engine light on is not enough, but that there is a requirement that the readiness counters are set - I'm not sure if they allow say one readiness counter to not be set. I found that out when I swapped the ECU on my A6 and then immediately went to have it smogged, and I didn't drive it enough for the readiness counters to be set. They used to do a sniffer test, but say 4-5 years ago, they did away with that, and I believe that the current requirements are listed at https://www.bar.ca.gov/Consumer/New_...heck_Test.html. My main point is that some shops may not do much of a visual check. - Jim

[wpfahl]

I always read the codes before heading in for my bi-annual prayer session. I use the BlueDriver scanner because it seems to have the best support of the cheap reader companies. One readiness monitor is allowed in Ca. Ca is defiantly a PITA for having a non stock ride.


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[landfill]

Yes the check engine light is
just the no brainer. You can
still fail readiness and have
soft codes that don’t set the
light.

[landfill]

I agree it all depends on who
you bring it to. It still doesn’t
sound like a reasonable scenario
just typing here.

Most people with modded cars
out there go to dirty smog and
don’t waste there time calling
and shopping around. Or going
on a hope & prayer.

[wpfahl]

Best to have a friend in the biz.


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[Calif_Kid]

For finding a shop in California, if the registration sheet says that you need to take the car to a 'Star Station', then I suggest checking out Craigslist for cheap Star Stations as they probably want to get you out as quickly as possible to maximize their profits. Google Maps will have more stations, but Craigslist may have some of the cheapest, some of which may work out in your favor...

PS - the person I sold my S4 to mentioned that the smog station he went to asked about the RS4 Y-pipe, and wanted info about it, and I mentioned that it was an actual Audi part, so wouldn't have a 'carb' part number, so hopefully the smog shop wouldn't or shouldn't question it. - Jim

[james 408]

it's probably technically still illegal as it's not for the engine/model/year under the guidelines, but one could argue and it's unique to each part in terms of language. Same for the coil kit replacements (although again one could argue the language is softer on this one). EO sticker works the same way though, you get one for the intake and they might call the whole search off -- even seen fake stickers for entirely wrong platforms.

I think following the spirit of the law is a good barrometer for having a rational defense under the letter of the law. You start throwing fake stickers on there or start trying to fool people, you start running afoul of more serious crimes. Oem looking, and maybe rust spray if it's too shiny -- keeping it dirty helps as well. Generally if asked, I'd emphasize it's just a standard maintenance replacement part where applicable, as opposed to a mod.

Basically cop pops the hood, and if it's clearly aftermarket (brushed aluminum intake with __ motorsport etched in it) you're going to be having a conversation. And this probably isn't their first rodeo in terms of escuse lists (i bought it this way... yada yada isn't going to help, unless you make him laugh while you're doing it -- which it depends on both you and the officer on that one). Most of these guys know the rules are stupid, but I'm telling you, you get a young cop with a stick up his utility belt, you're in for a rough ride, say nothing, and hope he doesn't know the law or what he's looking at... little book his way into the wrong cvc citation with any luck. In my experience, these are the same guys pulling you over for absurd reasons in the first place, though, and looking to search. I've never had an experienced officer give me the drill, they just don't care about technical nothings, you literally don't even have to say anything, just nod and laugh as appropriate and don't waste his time by doing ___.

[christianb5s4]

Long story short, every modification is basically illegal technically speaking. I am not aware of a single manufacturer that makes mods for these cars that is CARB compliant as the process is very time consuming and costly to the manufacturer which is an instant non-started for any manufacturer that makes stuff for the B5 S4.

Even installing a CARB compliant cat isn't enough because it needs to be the exact CARB part specified for this car aka there are no aftermarket parts available. I run a full OEM RS4 intake setup (airbox, accordion hose, y-pipe, lobster claws etc.) and it looks completely stock. You can't see the injectors and can barely see turbos but no average SMOG shop will tell those are aftermarket or not even if they do look. The biggest thing they look for are coded out rear o2s (the SMOG machine does not care about coded out EVAP or secondary air injection) and catalytic converters.

My advice is to have a stealth exhaust, avoid going to car shows, and not driving like an idiot. There are always SMOG solutions available at a price. Most people who get nailed for these things by LE get pulled over for other reasons then these tickets get tacked on. SEMA is in the process of appealing the exhaust law change to revert it back to being a fix it ticket right now.

[james 408]

Yepper. I'd be curious how the actual process goes, obviously approval would be slow cause it's a government regulation department, but as far as independently testing the part on a vehicle, it really wouldn't be that expensive (as I imagine it). Then again retesting it 5 times or raising sample sizes could price you out pretty quick. My guess is they just got afraid of the government and decided to not deal with it.

Flying miata did it... among a bunch of others on fairly small market items. Out of state small scale tuners... less than a year to approve.

[xFvse]

Do all oem rs4 bits with ko4s. Youll pass smogs with stock downpipes


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