K24 Build Advice

[hii]

Hi everyone, I have a 2002 6 speed A6 that I am currently in the process of building after my passengers side k03 died. This car is my daily and my goal is to get the most for my money when going through this build. I have tried to do my homework and hope that I can get a lot of feedback on items I am missing and need to add or something that can be taken off that is not that beneficial or necessary.

I am hoping to get advice and guidance from those of you who have gone through this. I would really appreciate you all sharing your wisdom and giving me your input.

Current thought process:

- Turbos BB K24’s (2867’s)
- Tune E85 and 93 (by a remote tuner like Blake or by my local shop)
- Rods SRM (new glyco rod and main bearings, head studs, main studs) rebalanced
- Checking cylinders/pistons re-ring them and cleaned up
- SRM SMIC’s versus fmic (potential blow through MAF, open to suggestions)
- Timing belt/water pump/rollers & tensioners/oil pump/gaskets/seals etc.
- Mounts (motor, trans, rear diff and snub)
- Cams (2.8 vs RS4)
- 2.8 Heads with SAI Blockoff Plates (worth it? Worth having the 2.7 heads ported/polished?)
- Full 3” downpipes to custom exhaust
- Clutch and Flywheel (looking for something that will hold the power and still be daily drivable) southbend, ringer racing
- New fuel pump and injectors (1200cc injectors? Walbro 450 vs 485 vs 525?)
- Larger MAF Housing with Bosch MAF vs blow through MAF
- Wideband set-up with gauge
- Boost Gauge
- New Oxygen Sensors
- New 710N’s
- New N75
- New Fluids
- Random things that pop up and need replaced once in there like fittings, hoses, lines, etc.

Thoughts on the blow through MAF?
Should I do anything with the y pipe as far as upgrading to something different if I don’t go with the blow through MAF?
Thoughts on adding a water/meth injection kit to the mix?
4:1 Center Diff?

Any and all input is greatly appreciated!

Thanks!

[Yuppie]

If this is going to be just a daily then a basic stage 3 w/BWk04s will be pleantly, fun, and not complicated. If this is also going to be your weekend fun runs car then move forward with the build

[RocksForsSale]

RR stage 4+ if doing rods


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine

[csobel]

First question: do you have $20k set aside for all this? Whatever you think it’s going to cost will likely be a lot more. I’m not trying to discourage you but I just did the same build; sourcing parts carefully and getting reasonable used items where it made sense. I also built the engine myself and saved on that labor. It ends up being way more expensive in practice than in theory.

No brake or suspension mods or do you have those already? What you’re talking about building with the 67 trim k24, e85, is going to be well over high 500’s and into the 600’s hp wise. Make sure the rest of the car can keep up... for your safety and that of others.

All that aside, it should be a sick build for sure!

[CELison]

I would not daily drive that set up. Once you open the motor up you’re past the point of no return. You’re going to run into issues that you can’t predict and they’re going to be more frequent than you think. At that power level things are going to go wrong, there’s no getting around it. For a toy, it’s great. But as your primary form of transportation, not so much. My car was a normal stage 3 from 2009 to 2017, then built motor K24s till now. It was much more DD friendly as a stage 3 car. If you can spend 10k+ on mods, you can afford to buy a daily.

[hii]

If this is going to be just a daily then a basic stage 3 w/BWk04s will be pleantly, fun, and not complicated. If this is also going to be your weekend fun runs car then move forward with the build

Thanks for the feedback, the plan is for this to serve as both.

RR stage 4+ if doing rods


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine

Thanks for the input.

First question: do you have $20k set aside for all this? Whatever you think it’s going to cost will likely be a lot more. I’m not trying to discourage you but I just did the same build; sourcing parts carefully and getting reasonable used items where it made sense. I also built the engine myself and saved on that labor. It ends up being way more expensive in practice than in theory.

No brake or suspension mods or do you have those already? What you’re talking about building with the 67 trim k24, e85, is going to be well over high 500’s and into the 600’s hp wise. Make sure the rest of the car can keep up... for your safety and that of others.

All that aside, it should be a sick build for sure!

No, I do not have a plan of spending $20k for this build. Do you think it would take $20k to properly sort this build? I have read through your build thread and it is without a doubt impressive. From what I remember you swapped in an 0A3, built 2.8 head, etc. (many things I would like to do but have a feeling are going to be cost prohibitive). All I'm trying to say is that it looks like your build is more involved and I am thinking about something milder. Please let me know if you think no matter what costs are going to creep up near $20k.

Agreed about the brakes and suspension. I really appreciate the input and advice. I'm curious to see if you think a build like this no matter what will run that high, especially since you have just been through a similar build. Thanks again.

I would not daily drive that set up. Once you open the motor up you’re past the point of no return. You’re going to run into issues that you can’t predict and they’re going to be more frequent than you think. At that power level things are going to go wrong, there’s no getting around it. For a toy, it’s great. But as your primary form of transportation, not so much. My car was a normal stage 3 from 2009 to 2017, then built motor K24s till now. It was much more DD friendly as a stage 3 car. If you can spend 10k+ on mods, you can afford to buy a daily.

My thought process is when you open the engine up you are getting a chance to make sure everything is as it should be and you are freshening it up with new bearings, forged rods, etc. The cost to throw rods in and make sure everything checks out internally to me looked like a good value proposition. Are your thoughts once you open the engine up it introduces more issues and the issues after the build will likely be more frequent? Or are you saying that at that power level issues will arise more often or both? I do understand that the higher the power level the sooner I will find out about weak points and as a result have things that go wrong quicker. I know you have been through several different turbo setups and I appreciate your input, are you seeing a big difference in the amount of trouble you are having with your car now with a built motor and k24's vs. when you were a normal stage 3?

I'm curious what your and others thoughts are on doing a build like this and having some different tuning, for example a lower boost setting for everyday driving in an attempt to keep things from going wrong and then a higher boost setting for weekend cruising and having fun.


I really appreciate all of the input and advice so far, please keep it coming.

[CELison]

These motors are very stout. If you pulled the heads off yours, I guarantee the cross hatch is still there. Plenty of 200k+ mile stage 3 cars with great compression. They almost never have issues related to the rotating assembly/rings/ect. The problem isn't rebuilding the motor, it's the power you will want to make on your freshly forged tower of power. When you make 650chp on a motor that was designed for 250chp, issues are going to pop up more often than a normal stage 3. Of course you can run a mild power level, but there's not fun in that. At least for me, I'm in kill mode all the time in case I run into any fun on the highway. E85 in the car for 2 years besides storing it over winter. If you're prepared to put up with the issues, then let it rip. But it was 25 degrees and snowing this morning. If I had to fiddle fuck with my car at 7am in this shit I would not be too happy.

If you can afford it, buy a cheap reliable daily. Jeep XJ, 2.8 B5 (I've owned both) ect. There will at least be times when your car is down for a couple days and you need to get places, or it will have issues, but be drivable, but you won't want to drive it bc something is fucked up. At least for me, it's a headache I wouldn't want.

Issues that came up after going the built motor route. All of these would be very annoying if it were my daily. Obviously these are not all built motor issues, just b5 issues.

1. clutch began to slip on E85
2. Heads lifted at full tilt (think I fixed this, but jury is still out)
3. Fuel pump couldn't keep up
4. Fuel fittings leaking with fuel injection clamps
5. wg needed adjusting (again)
6. wideband took a shit
7. 2 coolant leaks
8. coolant res cap failure

When this stuff happens, it's nice to be able to just let the car sit in the garage until you have time to fix it right.

[VR6Bomber]

Is it now twice a week that we have to discourage someone with grand plans to DD a stg3?



I can't add anything to what has already been said above, all very good advice.

No, I do not have a plan of spending $20k for this build. Do you think it would take $20k to properly sort this build?

For your perspective:

I am having a motor built right now:

$6k on the bottom end (via the cheapest route: IE's and JE's 1mm overbore, bearings, seals, new oil pump, chains, ARP mains, balanced checked, new flywheel, the basics and nothing crazy)
$6k on the top. (mildly worked/built 2.8 heads)
So $12k for the long-block including timing gear and accessories.

$5k on a pair of TTE's. (just for the turbos, no inlets or hardware, etc)

Did you see how fast we got to $17k....

We didn't get to fueling or tuning yet...



Many 2.7 projects never get finished because they end up costing way more than originally projected.

Whatever you think it will cost, double it. That's the best advice I can give.

[Alchemy]

Hi everyone, I have a 2002 6 speed A6 that I am currently in the process of building after my passengers side k03 died. This car is my daily and my goal is to get the most for my money when going through this build. I have tried to do my homework and hope that I can get a lot of feedback on items I am missing and need to add or something that can be taken off that is not that beneficial or necessary.

I am hoping to get advice and guidance from those of you who have gone through this. I would really appreciate you all sharing your wisdom and giving me your input.

Current thought process:

- Turbos BB K24’s (2867’s)
- Tune E85 and 93 (by a remote tuner like Blake or by my local shop)
- Rods SRM (new glyco rod and main bearings, head studs, main studs) rebalanced
- Checking cylinders/pistons re-ring them and cleaned up
- SRM SMIC’s versus fmic (potential blow through MAF, open to suggestions)
- Timing belt/water pump/rollers & tensioners/oil pump/gaskets/seals etc.
- Mounts (motor, trans, rear diff and snub)
- Cams (2.8 vs RS4)
- 2.8 Heads with SAI Blockoff Plates (worth it? Worth having the 2.7 heads ported/polished?)
- Full 3” downpipes to custom exhaust
- Clutch and Flywheel (looking for something that will hold the power and still be daily drivable) southbend, ringer racing
- New fuel pump and injectors (1200cc injectors? Walbro 450 vs 485 vs 525?)
- Larger MAF Housing with Bosch MAF vs blow through MAF
- Wideband set-up with gauge
- Boost Gauge
- New Oxygen Sensors
- New 710N’s
- New N75
- New Fluids
- Random things that pop up and need replaced once in there like fittings, hoses, lines, etc.

Thoughts on the blow through MAF?
Should I do anything with the y pipe as far as upgrading to something different if I don’t go with the blow through MAF?
Thoughts on adding a water/meth injection kit to the mix?
4:1 Center Diff?

Any and all input is greatly appreciated!

Thanks!

I'm glad your head is in the right spot with tackling the accessory stuff as well. My $.02 is to focus on maintenance items & go for a K04 stage 3 car on E85. For daily driving it's hard to argue with a well put together k04 car where you're into full boost just north of 3,000rpms. Save the $ you want to spend on the engine internals and focus on a proper suspension and brakes, it well breath new life into the car.

You'll be happy and the car will last a LONG time. My k04 car has been in it's current state for over 10 years according to all the maintenance records I have, once you start cranking on these blocks all the weak links begin to become apparent and frustratingly annoying where as most well cared for k04 cars only need timing belts, clutches, olil changes, spark plugs, and the occasional reseal @100k intervals.

[m_haiser]

These motors are very stout. If you pulled the heads off yours, I guarantee the cross hatch is still there. Plenty of 200k+ mile stage 3 cars with great compression. They almost never have issues related to the rotating assembly/rings/ect. The problem isn't rebuilding the motor, it's the power you will want to make on your freshly forged tower of power. When you make 650chp on a motor that was designed for 250chp, issues are going to pop up more often than a normal stage 3. Of course you can run a mild power level, but there's not fun in that. At least for me, I'm in kill mode all the time in case I run into any fun on the highway. E85 in the car for 2 years besides storing it over winter. If you're prepared to put up with the issues, then let it rip. But it was 25 degrees and snowing this morning. If I had to fiddle fuck with my car at 7am in this shit I would not be too happy.

If you can afford it, buy a cheap reliable daily. Jeep XJ, 2.8 B5 (I've owned both) ect. There will at least be times when your car is down for a couple days and you need to get places, or it will have issues, but be drivable, but you won't want to drive it bc something is fucked up. At least for me, it's a headache I wouldn't want.

Issues that came up after going the built motor route. All of these would be very annoying if it were my daily. Obviously these are not all built motor issues, just b5 issues.

1. clutch began to slip on E85
2. Heads lifted at full tilt (think I fixed this, but jury is still out)
3. Fuel pump couldn't keep up
4. Fuel fittings leaking with fuel injection clamps
5. wg needed adjusting (again)
6. wideband took a shit
7. 2 coolant leaks
8. coolant res cap failure

When this stuff happens, it's nice to be able to just let the car sit in the garage until you have time to fix it right.

my GF has a 98 XJ that is my backup when my AR is down lol got it from work for $200 with a cracked head and bad water pump.
its been on the road for like a year now and has cost me less than $600 total including a used head and all new cooling system besides rad.

[hii]

These motors are very stout. If you pulled the heads off yours, I guarantee the cross hatch is still there. Plenty of 200k+ mile stage 3 cars with great compression. They almost never have issues related to the rotating assembly/rings/ect. The problem isn't rebuilding the motor, it's the power you will want to make on your freshly forged tower of power. When you make 650chp on a motor that was designed for 250chp, issues are going to pop up more often than a normal stage 3. Of course you can run a mild power level, but there's not fun in that. At least for me, I'm in kill mode all the time in case I run into any fun on the highway. E85 in the car for 2 years besides storing it over winter. If you're prepared to put up with the issues, then let it rip. But it was 25 degrees and snowing this morning. If I had to fiddle fuck with my car at 7am in this shit I would not be too happy.

If you can afford it, buy a cheap reliable daily. Jeep XJ, 2.8 B5 (I've owned both) ect. There will at least be times when your car is down for a couple days and you need to get places, or it will have issues, but be drivable, but you won't want to drive it bc something is fucked up. At least for me, it's a headache I wouldn't want.

Issues that came up after going the built motor route. All of these would be very annoying if it were my daily. Obviously these are not all built motor issues, just b5 issues.

1. clutch began to slip on E85
2. Heads lifted at full tilt (think I fixed this, but jury is still out)
3. Fuel pump couldn't keep up
4. Fuel fittings leaking with fuel injection clamps
5. wg needed adjusting (again)
6. wideband took a shit
7. 2 coolant leaks
8. coolant res cap failure

When this stuff happens, it's nice to be able to just let the car sit in the garage until you have time to fix it right.

I appreciate your input and the phrase "freshly forged tower of power." Would you dissuade against DD'ing a stage 3 in general (I know you had multiple turbo issues but outside of that)? Not sure if during any of that 2009-2017 your stage 3 was a DD. Also, would be great to have a daily driver and have this car just be a fun weekend car but it's not in the cards with the current living situation in the city, ie parking/storage so seeing if it can be both. It's not perfect, but seeing what those who have been through it and wiser than I think.

I understand running at a mild power level similar to a "normal" stage 3 during most driving and having a higher boost tune for weekends/spirited drives may not be ideal for you, but I am thinking it sounds like a solid option for what I am looking for. Do you think it could potentially accomplish a balance of normal stage 3 reliability with extra power available for certain occasions? I'm very interested in thoughts on this.

Is it now twice a week that we have to discourage someone with grand plans to DD a stg3?



I can't add anything to what has already been said above, all very good advice.







For your perspective:

I am having a motor built right now:

$6k on the bottom end (via the cheapest route: IE's and JE's 1mm overbore, bearings, seals, new oil pump, chains, ARP mains, balanced checked, new flywheel, the basics and nothing crazy)
$6k on the top. (mildly worked/built 2.8 heads)
So $12k for the long-block including timing gear and accessories.

$5k on a pair of TTE's. (just for the turbos, no inlets or hardware, etc)

Did you see how fast we got to $17k....

We didn't get to fueling or tuning yet...



Many 2.7 projects never get finished because they end up costing way more than originally projected.

Whatever you think it will cost, double it. That's the best advice I can give.

Sorry, same question as I asked CELison. It sounds like you wouldn't recommend DD'ing a stage 3 in general? If you don't think it is a terrible idea to DD one what are your thoughts on the build with a mild tune and extra power available for certain occasions?

I appreciate your input and in regards to cost I have not doubled the amount I think it will cost but I have put a decent cushion in place for miscellaneous items that could very well arise. I'm not planning on a full motor build really just forged rods, new bearings, studs, balanced, re-ringing pistons, timing belt/water pump job and reseal. The only other thing at this point that I'm considering is a different set of cams and possibly doing something with the heads. I really do appreciate all the input and don't want to be the next person selling off parts in the classifieds because I got in over my head. For a fully built motor like you are having done, I completely agree it's more than I have budgeted. The price difference between the forged rods, bearings, studs, re-ringing pistons and balancing I see being a difference of around $1k in parts. I am really not trying to be argumentative, I want to make sure I'm not missing anything or going in blind which is why I am asking these questions and again very appreciative of all the recommendations and responses.

I'm glad your head is in the right spot with tackling the accessory stuff as well. My $.02 is to focus on maintenance items & go for a K04 stage 3 car on E85. For daily driving it's hard to argue with a well put together k04 car where you're into full boost just north of 3,000rpms. Save the $ you want to spend on the engine internals and focus on a proper suspension and brakes, it well breath new life into the car.

You'll be happy and the car will last a LONG time. My k04 car has been in it's current state for over 10 years according to all the maintenance records I have, once you start cranking on these blocks all the weak links begin to become apparent and frustratingly annoying where as most well cared for k04 cars only need timing belts, clutches, olil changes, spark plugs, and the occasional reseal @100k intervals.

I appreciate your input and I do want to make sure that I do what I can, within reason, to make it as reliable and fun as possible. The proper suspension and brakes will definitely happen, I just forgot to add those in the original post. It is refreshing to hear that you have had over 10 years on your K04 setup. Do you mind providing your thoughts on the forged rods with a mild tune with the goal being to not constantly be pushing the block and seeing the weak links, while also having a high power tune for certain occasions? (Sorry for all the repetitive questions, this seems like it could be ideal for me in theory but I'm not sure if it would translate to the real world results I'm hoping for).



I am really appreciating all of this advice and it is definitely making me consider what makes the most sense. Please keep the information and advice coming!

[VR6Bomber]

Would you dissuade against DD'ing a stage 3 in general

I wouldn't DD a 20 year old car period.
even more-so; a heavily modified one.

[b6a4]

I daily a k24 car. I usually get a nice full boost highway pull before work and after. Sure things break. Just fix them as they go.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine

[ruiz]

Yuppie gave some sound advice. Just get bw k04s with full supporting mods (or not) and be done with it, you'll be plenty happy with the power, it's good usuable power for a daily. Just make sure your motor has good compression and slap the new turbos/mods on. You're in MD so I can only assume you're close to Bmore or DC, in which case you can bus/Metro/Uber your way to work/wherever if you can't have a 2nd car. You'll be kicking yourself in the ass if you go balls to the wall with your build and something breaks every other week. I have a pretty simple full stage 3 and I thought I went through EVERYTHING, but nope, shit is still popping up. I would have burned my S to the ground if I didn't have another car.

[CELison]

A PJ K04 car is going to be more reliable than a built motor car for sure. That being said, these cars are 20 years old now, so you're going to have issues here and there regardless. If I were you, speaking from experience, I wouldn't have a b5 s4 be my only form of transportation. Not in 2019. I was sort of daily driving mine over the summer to work. It's only 10 miles. I would like to believe my car is a good example of a built motor b5. All maintenance is done, everything works, no leaking fluids, no burning fluids. Had to fix something in my company parking lot at least 3 times. Granted, once was after giving my boss a 140mph joy ride, but still.... built motor cars require a lot of attention, and you don't want to have to deal with that shit day in and day out.

[csobel]

No, I do not have a plan of spending $20k for this build. Do you think it would take $20k to properly sort this build? I have read through your build thread and it is without a doubt impressive. From what I remember you swapped in an 0A3, built 2.8 head, etc. (many things I would like to do but have a feeling are going to be cost prohibitive). All I'm trying to say is that it looks like your build is more involved and I am thinking about something milder. Please let me know if you think no matter what costs are going to creep up near $20k.

Howdy,

First off good on you for putting yourself out there and getting so much advice. I did go pretty far on my build but I also did it carefully--buying new when it made sense, used when I could get away with it. In some ways your build will cost less but in other ways it will cost more. For example, those 67 trim turbos (which look awesome and trust me I'm envious haha) will definitely need the Tial wastegate upgrade, and now you're at almost 3500 for turbos with a good install kit. I was at more like 2k for the turbos... I'm told the BB are less daily friendly, especially the 67 trim but both spool slower and have more top end than the JB K24. I would consider doing the JB if you plan to daily this, and it will save you almost $2k.

Here's something that a lot of people don't consider or realize until you're 10k deep into the build. Psychologically, once you start spending a lot of money on your engine, your anxiety that something will go wrong with the engine and thrash your nice setup will start to soar and you'll end up replacing many more things than you originally intended to replace when you were just in the planning phase (honestly, rightfully so a lot of the time). It won't feel like anxiety per se, you'll just start to feel REALLY good about replacing parts left and right. Trust me, once you start looking at the worn heads after already spending $4k on the engine and 3.5k on turbos, you are not going to want to take chances with a CCT with 200k on it, or some lifters that are barely squeaking by, when the consequences of them failing could be upwards of 10 grand in damage. This is just an example but there are many areas where that will happen before you finish the build.

The pistons could be good but they could not be. 1/2 of the 2.7's that I tore down had very bad clearances and the other was just ok. Are you going to be ok with "just ok" clearances when you're pushing 650whp through 200,000 mile old pistons? That doubt and uncertainty will definitely enter in. There are hidden costs once you open the engine up that you just find out about "once you're in there".

After taking another look at your list, I'm pretty confident you'll hit $20k without a doubt if you go with the built engine plan, etc. You may not have to spend all that right away, but you will have to spend it to get the car on the road. Maybe you'll be fortunate and only spend $15k, but I'm willing to wager it'll be more than that. Like another member said, there are thread after thread of people selling all their big stage 3 or single turbo gear and I suspect part of the reason is at the very least that it was too hard and too expensive.

Anyway, not trying to lecture you--if you take the jump I think it'll be sick. Just be prepared.

[DieselElectric]

I drove mine for a while with the bb k24s, e85, and methanol on a blow through PRO-M maf for a while and didn't have any issues. Daily drove it with a stock engine and f21s for a few years before that after going from stock to f21s in a weekend.

You will spend what you want to spend. I have under 10k in my car and it runs great. I can't bring myself to invest a lot into and engine that might crack the block anyway, so I saved a lot by just installing rods, honing the cylinders, standard bearings, and even cheap cast rings. Checked the heads with a straight edge, and slapped them back on. The crank didn't even come out of the block, did not touch a single main bolt since all the rod bearings looked good. The cylinders had more taper than I wanted to see after the hone, but it hasn't been an issue now 15,000 or so miles later. Literally a basic budget engine rebuild with fancy snails bolted to it and supporting fueling. (Single walbro 450, 1,000cc injectors, stock lines and rails, d12 methanol nozzle with 80/20 m/w mix.)
It's worked for me. People frown on not balancing the engine, and building the heads. But, I'd personally be more pissed if I spent 5 grand on an engine just to crack the block and have to do it all over again.

Sure, my car would be faster with 2.8 cams, upgraded intake manifold and throttle body, but when I compare it to "fully built" cars I see, the saved cash was worth it. Point of diminishing returns and all that.

End of the day, if you know your way around and engine, you can make your own decisions on where you are willing to save, and where you are willing to spend.

First time around I took my car from stock to the f21 setup mentioned above for under $3500 by buying used parts and taking my time acquiring everything.

[hii]

Yuppie gave some sound advice. Just get bw k04s with full supporting mods (or not) and be done with it, you'll be plenty happy with the power, it's good usuable power for a daily. Just make sure your motor has good compression and slap the new turbos/mods on. You're in MD so I can only assume you're close to Bmore or DC, in which case you can bus/Metro/Uber your way to work/wherever if you can't have a 2nd car. You'll be kicking yourself in the ass if you go balls to the wall with your build and something breaks every other week. I have a pretty simple full stage 3 and I thought I went through EVERYTHING, but nope, shit is still popping up. I would have burned my S to the ground if I didn't have another car.

Thanks for your input, I appreciate you sharing your experience going full stage 3. If you don't mind me asking when things are popping up, are most little items that are annoying that need addressed or things that render the car unusable until fixed?

A PJ K04 car is going to be more reliable than a built motor car for sure. That being said, these cars are 20 years old now, so you're going to have issues here and there regardless. If I were you, speaking from experience, I wouldn't have a b5 s4 be my only form of transportation. Not in 2019. I was sort of daily driving mine over the summer to work. It's only 10 miles. I would like to believe my car is a good example of a built motor b5. All maintenance is done, everything works, no leaking fluids, no burning fluids. Had to fix something in my company parking lot at least 3 times. Granted, once was after giving my boss a 140mph joy ride, but still.... built motor cars require a lot of attention, and you don't want to have to deal with that shit day in and day out.

Thanks for the reply, I hear what you're saying. Definitely making me think twice about what to do and I appreciate all of the information based on your experience.

Howdy,

First off good on you for putting yourself out there and getting so much advice. I did go pretty far on my build but I also did it carefully--buying new when it made sense, used when I could get away with it. In some ways your build will cost less but in other ways it will cost more. For example, those 67 trim turbos (which look awesome and trust me I'm envious haha) will definitely need the Tial wastegate upgrade, and now you're at almost 3500 for turbos with a good install kit. I was at more like 2k for the turbos... I'm told the BB are less daily friendly, especially the 67 trim but both spool slower and have more top end than the JB K24. I would consider doing the JB if you plan to daily this, and it will save you almost $2k.

Here's something that a lot of people don't consider or realize until you're 10k deep into the build. Psychologically, once you start spending a lot of money on your engine, your anxiety that something will go wrong with the engine and thrash your nice setup will start to soar and you'll end up replacing many more things than you originally intended to replace when you were just in the planning phase (honestly, rightfully so a lot of the time). It won't feel like anxiety per se, you'll just start to feel REALLY good about replacing parts left and right. Trust me, once you start looking at the worn heads after already spending $4k on the engine and 3.5k on turbos, you are not going to want to take chances with a CCT with 200k on it, or some lifters that are barely squeaking by, when the consequences of them failing could be upwards of 10 grand in damage. This is just an example but there are many areas where that will happen before you finish the build.

The pistons could be good but they could not be. 1/2 of the 2.7's that I tore down had very bad clearances and the other was just ok. Are you going to be ok with "just ok" clearances when you're pushing 650whp through 200,000 mile old pistons? That doubt and uncertainty will definitely enter in. There are hidden costs once you open the engine up that you just find out about "once you're in there".

After taking another look at your list, I'm pretty confident you'll hit $20k without a doubt if you go with the built engine plan, etc. You may not have to spend all that right away, but you will have to spend it to get the car on the road. Maybe you'll be fortunate and only spend $15k, but I'm willing to wager it'll be more than that. Like another member said, there are thread after thread of people selling all their big stage 3 or single turbo gear and I suspect part of the reason is at the very least that it was too hard and too expensive.

Anyway, not trying to lecture you--if you take the jump I think it'll be sick. Just be prepared.

Not taken as a lecture at all, I really appreciate the well thought out and informative post that is what I am here looking for. The JB is definitely an option I am open to. Not sure if the engine ends up not being opened and rods are skipped if a JB K24 or a K04 variant makes more sense. I have combed through a few threads on that subject that seemed pretty split. As far as the while you are in there mentality that you are describing, I agree with you. I have tried to make sure that I account for as many things as I can while also having a solid cushion for unexpected items. I am not there yet so I am not going to pretend that I know how I will respond or what I will do, but I do agree with you that I can easily see this happening and it is important to be cognizant of.


I really appreciate you going through everything and making sure that I know what I am getting into depending on what direction I go. That is why I am here is to try to hear as many sides, opinions, experiences, etc. So that I can make the most informed decision possible based on all this great discussion.


Please continue sharing thoughts, advice, experiences and recommendations (even if it is just agreeing with something someone already posted) as all of this is helping me. Thanks again to everyone.

[hii]

I drove mine for a while with the bb k24s, e85, and methanol on a blow through PRO-M maf for a while and didn't have any issues. Daily drove it with a stock engine and f21s for a few years before that after going from stock to f21s in a weekend.

You will spend what you want to spend. I have under 10k in my car and it runs great. I can't bring myself to invest a lot into and engine that might crack the block anyway, so I saved a lot by just installing rods, honing the cylinders, standard bearings, and even cheap cast rings. Checked the heads with a straight edge, and slapped them back on. The crank didn't even come out of the block, did not touch a single main bolt since all the rod bearings looked good. The cylinders had more taper than I wanted to see after the hone, but it hasn't been an issue now 15,000 or so miles later. Literally a basic budget engine rebuild with fancy snails bolted to it and supporting fueling. (Single walbro 450, 1,000cc injectors, stock lines and rails, d12 methanol nozzle with 80/20 m/w mix.)
It's worked for me. People frown on not balancing the engine, and building the heads. But, I'd personally be more pissed if I spent 5 grand on an engine just to crack the block and have to do it all over again.

Sure, my car would be faster with 2.8 cams, upgraded intake manifold and throttle body, but when I compare it to "fully built" cars I see, the saved cash was worth it. Point of diminishing returns and all that.

End of the day, if you know your way around and engine, you can make your own decisions on where you are willing to save, and where you are willing to spend.

First time around I took my car from stock to the f21 setup mentioned above for under $3500 by buying used parts and taking my time acquiring everything.

Thanks for the response and for sharing your experience with your different builds. I have read through your build thread. Posting this thread that was my initial goal, to get some input on new cams being worth the extra work and cost vs new heads etc. Now I'm rethinking what direction makes the most sense. Problem wise have you noticed more issues with your current setup versus the stock engine f21's (obviously not a fair comparison time wise, but your general observations so far)? Any general recommendations from you having gone through both the f21 swap and then also to forged rods and k24's? Anything you would do differently etc.? Thanks again.

[ruiz]

Most were annoying little things and the car was still driveable, but now I'm chasing boost leaks after boost leak. I've corrected about 5 so far. Hasn't been driveable for a few weeks now; going at it full swing tomorrow and should be good. My NA V8 hasn't left me stranded yet

[Silverex]

Just curious why are you going with the gtx2867 vs the gtx2863?

[JKorteS4]

Here's something that a lot of people don't consider or realize until you're 10k deep into the build. Psychologically, once you start spending a lot of money on your engine, your anxiety that something will go wrong with the engine and thrash your nice setup will start to soar and you'll end up replacing many more things than you originally intended to replace when you were just in the planning phase (honestly, rightfully so a lot of the time). It won't feel like anxiety per se, you'll just start to feel REALLY good about replacing parts left and right. Trust me, once you start looking at the worn heads after already spending $4k on the engine and 3.5k on turbos, you are not going to want to take chances with a CCT with 200k on it, or some lifters that are barely squeaking by, when the consequences of them failing could be upwards of 10 grand in damage. This is just an example but there are many areas where that will happen before you finish the build.

The pistons could be good but they could not be. 1/2 of the 2.7's that I tore down had very bad clearances and the other was just ok. Are you going to be ok with "just ok" clearances when you're pushing 650whp through 200,000 mile old pistons? That doubt and uncertainty will definitely enter in. There are hidden costs once you open the engine up that you just find out about "once you're in there".

After taking another look at your list, I'm pretty confident you'll hit $20k without a doubt if you go with the built engine plan, etc. You may not have to spend all that right away, but you will have to spend it to get the car on the road. Maybe you'll be fortunate and only spend $15k, but I'm willing to wager it'll be more than that. Like another member said, there are thread after thread of people selling all their big stage 3 or single turbo gear and I suspect part of the reason is at the very least that it was too hard and too expensive.

Anyway, not trying to lecture you--if you take the jump I think it'll be sick. Just be prepared.

This.

I started a 605.2 build in Sept. Built motor, top n bottom, yada yada yada.. After budgeting everything out, I was pretty confident 12k would cover everything.
It didn’t.
Things come up. Then more things come up!!
I suffer from a pretty severe case of “while we’re in there” too. The paranoia and anxiety are real!
On the homestretch now I think. Both CCTs failed, sequentially, after putting the new motor in. On the dyno this last week, c clip blows off wg actuator. Find out Monday how long it’ll take to find one of those lol!
Good luck!
Lots of really good advice on this thread. Agree with almost everything I’ve read so far.
As for DD, that was also my original plan. No way at this point am I planning on DD it now. The down time for the simplest thing is something I can’t afford.

[CELison]

The anxiety part is very real. I used to go WOT way more on my stage 3 set up. When you get close to 600whp, it feels like something is going to break doing pulls. Then you’re thinking of how much more money and time it’s going to take to fix it. The more you modify a car, the greater the chance of something going wrong. No getting around it.

[S4James]

ya. Ive taken mine the 11 hour drive to H20 a few times, and now.... now i would be nervous.

[CELison]

I drove mine from Easton Pa to my buddy’s in philly, then from philly to H20. Rompered on it from thurs-sun then drove it home. Didn’t miss a beat. The stage 3 car that was with us snapped a tbelt in MD and had to get towed to Rhode Island home.

[hii]

Most were annoying little things and the car was still driveable, but now I'm chasing boost leaks after boost leak. I've corrected about 5 so far. Hasn't been driveable for a few weeks now; going at it full swing tomorrow and should be good. My NA V8 hasn't left me stranded yet

Hope everything went well the other day. I appreciate the response and it is good to know that most were little annoying things with the car still being drivable.

Just curious why are you going with the gtx2867 vs the gtx2863?

After talking with a tuner with first hand experience with the turbos as well as SRM.

This.

I started a 605.2 build in Sept. Built motor, top n bottom, yada yada yada.. After budgeting everything out, I was pretty confident 12k would cover everything.
It didn’t.
Things come up. Then more things come up!!
I suffer from a pretty severe case of “while we’re in there” too. The paranoia and anxiety are real!
On the homestretch now I think. Both CCTs failed, sequentially, after putting the new motor in. On the dyno this last week, c clip blows off wg actuator. Find out Monday how long it’ll take to find one of those lol!
Good luck!
Lots of really good advice on this thread. Agree with almost everything I’ve read so far.
As for DD, that was also my original plan. No way at this point am I planning on DD it now. The down time for the simplest thing is something I can’t afford.

Thank you for your input and sharing your experience. All of this information is great and helping me get a clearer picture of what to expect. I hope you get good news tomorrow.


I appreciate everyone's input. I know K04's are being recommended a lot and a good bit of conversation is being had about being nervous or anxious about driving hard. In general is there a power sweet spot/magic number for the 2.7t as far as a performance/reliability balance? I have read that 475ish wheel torque tends to be the number to stay under without rods, I'm not saying that is true just what I have seen and heard a few times. I understand it is based on the individual car, tune, etc. but just looking for thoughts and opinions on what those with more knowledge than me about these cars find the magic number being before things seem to be constantly going wrong. I am probably searching for something that is non-existent but figure it doesn't hurt to ask. Maybe a number for stock motor and one for a motor with forged rods? Any and all input is greatly appreciated!
Thanks again!

[csobel]

After talking with a tuner with first hand experience with the turbos as well as SRM.

I'm curious to hear what you have heard about these vs. the 63 vs the JB? I'm mostly ignorant; I've just seen them on the web page and would be curious to hear.

What about the Tial 605's? I'm sure you've spent a lot of time thinking about all the options. I personally kept going back to the K24's because they seem to really put down some power and have been extensively used now.

Thanks!

[Silverex]

^+2
I’m curious why they recommended the 67 unless you told them you were looking for max power.

IMO the 2863 is a better match since the power potential should be really similar but spool quicker. If you were 2.8/3.0L I’d get moving up to the 67, but I have no first hand experience running them on this platform just stating what I’ve noticed on other cars.

The pistons could be good but they could not be. 1/2 of the 2.7's that I tore down had very bad clearances and the other was just ok. Are you going to be ok with "just ok" clearances when you're pushing 650whp through 200,000 mile old pistons? That doubt and uncertainty will definitely enter in. There are hidden costs once you open the engine up that you just find out about "once you're in there".
.

What were the bad clearance specs? Were the measurements done after block was honed?

[christianb5s4]

Whatever you think it will cost, double it. That's the best advice I can give.

Or to be even safer, triple it. There are so many unforeseen issues that come up with a motor build that you can try to account for but will never be able to fully predict what you'll find.

As VR6 said, doubling your projected cost is realistically the only way to see what your true budget should be. Doing it right is much more expensive but yields a much more reliable, well performing car. Don't skimp or you'll more than pay for it down the road.

Also, if built well I don't see any reason to not DD a built K24 car. I did for a year and a half and had no issues, Not to say there haven't been some kinks needing to be worked out off the fresh build, but overall the car has been very reliable. I now have an A6 for DD duty and it takes the edge off of things.

[ubeermench]

I started with 12k set aside for my build and already at 30k. Things come up and don't want to do everything twice because I cheaped out

[csobel]

Measured before the block was touched, the clearances ranged from .004 up to .006 on some bores. Visually everything looked fine; you could still see some crosshatch and there were no big scratches or anything. It was just worn.

[m_haiser]

I started with 12k set aside for my build and already at 30k. Things come up and don't want to do everything twice because I cheaped out

where/how did you get that heat shielding for the manifold/cyl head?

[ubeermench]

where/how did you get that heat shielding for the manifold/cyl head?

Had some material left over from another build and just formed it to fit. I think you can buy the material from amazon. Should be called Heat shield plating or something like that

[ReggieNoble]

Had some material left over from another build and just formed it to fit. I think you can buy the material from amazon. Should be called Heat shield plating or something like that

Are those manifolds custom? That's one hell of a bend/ loop on the driver's side manifold.

Sent from my LM-Q710(FGN) using Audizine mobile app

[ubeermench]

Are those manifolds custom? That's one hell of a bend/ loop on the driver's side manifold.

Sent from my LM-Q710(FGN) using Audizine mobile app

Ya, they're the last manifolds to come from WDR. Modified them a bit since they weren't quite finished.

[hii]

I'm curious to hear what you have heard about these vs. the 63 vs the JB? I'm mostly ignorant; I've just seen them on the web page and would be curious to hear.

I am no expert in these either and am going off of a combination of research and what I have been told. The general theme that I am getting is that the ball bearing versions offer greater power capability along with increased reliability over the JB. I unfortunately have not seen much information comparing the two BB trims on the 2.7t and the differences in their performance. If anyone has some information on that, it would be great.

What about the Tial 605's? I'm sure you've spent a lot of time thinking about all the options. I personally kept going back to the K24's because they seem to really put down some power and have been extensively used now.

Thanks!

I definitely considered the Tial 605's as well as several other turbos, like you said I kept coming back to the K24's as well due to their proven performance and characteristics.

^+2
I’m curious why they recommended the 67 unless you told them you were looking for max power.

IMO the 2863 is a better match since the power potential should be really similar but spool quicker. If you were 2.8/3.0L I’d get moving up to the 67, but I have no first hand experience running them on this platform just stating what I’ve noticed on other cars.




What were the bad clearance specs? Were the measurements done after block was honed?

I unfortunately don't have an answer on that, only thing I can say is when talking with everyone I didn't ask for max power. Would love to know more information between the two BB trims and see any data that is out there.

Or to be even safer, triple it. There are so many unforeseen issues that come up with a motor build that you can try to account for but will never be able to fully predict what you'll find.

As VR6 said, doubling your projected cost is realistically the only way to see what your true budget should be. Doing it right is much more expensive but yields a much more reliable, well performing car. Don't skimp or you'll more than pay for it down the road.

Also, if built well I don't see any reason to not DD a built K24 car. I did for a year and a half and had no issues, Not to say there haven't been some kinks needing to be worked out off the fresh build, but overall the car has been very reliable. I now have an A6 for DD duty and it takes the edge off of things.

I started with 12k set aside for my build and already at 30k. Things come up and don't want to do everything twice because I cheaped out

I appreciate that, definitely making sure to reevaluate my figures to make sure that I am understanding what I am getting into and being as prepared as possible. Also, really nice to hear from first hand experience that you DD a built K24 car for that long with no issues. That is great input. Thanks again.


Thanks for everyone's input and if anyone has information/data or first hand experience between the two ball bearing offerings of the K24 that would be greatly appreciated!

[christianb5s4]

Thanks for everyone's input and if anyone has information/data or first hand experience between the two ball bearing offerings of the K24 that would be greatly appreciated!

Based on what I've seen, there's very little performance difference. IMO if you don't plan on building the motor you should stick with K04s and E85. If you do plan on building the motor, K24s are fantastic because you can actually extract the full potential out of them.

[CELison]

Based on what I've seen, there's very little performance difference. IMO if you don't plan on building the motor you should stick with K04s and E85. If you do plan on building the motor, K24s are fantastic because you can actually extract the full potential out of them.

This. K04s on E is a fantastic set up and much much cheaper. Around town, it's faster too. Built motor K24 cars need some room to stretch their legs.

[m_haiser]

I just wish there was E85 nearer to me. nearest station is over 2 hours away

[S4James]

same.. almost an hours drive away. completely impractical.