Let’s talk big HP B5’s and fast drag times

[csobel]

Questions for discussion:

—Who do you guys think holds the fastest B5 S4 1/4 mile time?

— What qualifies as a B5 S4? Does it need a 2.7t? Interior? What kind of gearbox? What I’m getting at is, at what point is a B5 S4 just a shell and not really the real thing?

— What would it take to build a monster?

Cheers

[rdcyclist]

1. Someone ran a 9.something.
2. To me a VR6 turbo conversion is no longer a B5S4 but that's IMHO. Engine should be based on the 2.7 long block. 3.0 and a single would still be a B5. Any gearbox. Gutted with AC delete is fine but it's got to have the exterior body.
3. Lotsa moolah...

[Mocke]

RS4 limo run 10.1 officially, 9.9 unofficial with 890whp setup.
3L stroker v6, stock 01 tranny.

[VR6Bomber]

Usp 8.70 @170 ?

/vr6


I guess if you weld the diff, strip to the shell, and swap the motor, its a purpose-built 'racecar' at that point.

[landfill]

Vr6 is still an Audi/vw product
so definitely still a b5 s4. Also
the USP car is still using everything
Audi minus the rear diff. Everything’s
been beefed up but same layout
more or less. It’s also not gutted
and weighs 3,000lbs per NSCRA
rules.

It’s gone faster than 8.7 to date and
that’s with Chris still shifting gears.
It is a dogbox 01e but doesn’t have
a sequential shifter.

The only 9 second 2.7t cars I know
of that aren’t gutted are the TTE cars
in Europe. Other than that everyone’s
chasing a ghost with this platform.

Guruman and tweets did 10’s a decade
ago on tials and gt’s. You had fasts4
with a gutted k04 car in the 10’s too.
With the 2.7t you have to spend twice
the amount of money and break twice
the amount of shit compared to other
platforms to hit 9’s or low 10’s.

To put it in perspective a stage 2 rs3
or ttrs can pull a high 10 pass. Also
the old I5 can be built and made reliably
fast for way cheaper.

[christianb5s4]

To put it in perspective a stage 2 rs3
or ttrs can pull a high 10 pass. Also
the old I5 can be built and made reliably
fast for way cheaper.

A big component to those cars achieving those numbers is the DSG, it's such a huge advantage over the 01E.

[Mocke]

I have logged gear changes with std 01 tranny and compared to DSGs that changes gears in 0.01sec. We loose about 1.5sec in just gearchanges 1-2, 2-3, 3-4th and faster cars even 4-5th
This puts us way behind ofc and the times doesn’t look so impressive.
So, if we play with thought that we could avoid gearchange timeloss as DSG cars, all B5s that did 10s are actually in low 9s which all of the sudden makes it super quick.

[csobel]

Has anyone done a DSG swap yet?

[chris86vw]

Has anyone done a DSG swap yet?

The front engine longitudinal DSG sucked, failure prone and didn't hold power which is why most of the high power cars used the TC based ZF not a DSG, even the S4 dropped it and went to the ZF for the B9


The transverse DSG is an entirely different box and much stronger, or least seems to be so far in the applications like the transverse RS cars.



Also the B8+ cars moved the front wheels further forward/engine back in relation to each other. The output flanges for the front shafts are actually in front of the flywheel.

[Silverex]

Dogbox ;)

[landfill]

^^^This, for cutting serious
times. They all have custom
gearing and a lot of them are
clearing the traps still in 4th
at 160-180mph.

Also the stage 2+ e85 ttrs in 6
speed is still really quick for a
stock turbo 2.5L car. The DSG
trannies are unreal though. Fast
shifts but a numb driving experience
IMO even with software.

[Mocke]

I got a buddy in US who’s building 770r car with AZR. Will be using DogBox as well. If he doesn’t brake some records - non will.

[slowrideBC]

I will finally be running this year. See what happens

I got a buddy in US who’s building 770r car with AZR. Will be using DogBox as well. If he doesn’t brake some records - non will.

gonna take alot more than 770 and a dog box to break some records

[S4James]

Lol


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine

[AudiSportB5S4]

My opinion on it is there are two buckets for drag times with our platform. One bucket is anyone still running the stock engine as a base (including of course those who have a slightly oversized variant with a bore/stroke) and then another bucket is those with different engines all together which I think at this point is mostly just a VR6. I don't however dismiss those with a different engine as not being S4s, you just can't really compare the two directly as it isn't apples to apples. Clearly with USPs car as the prime example, in order to get the S4 into the seriously fast territory you have to go pretty extreme measures.

All these years after Marc ticked off the 10.7 in his gutted RS4-K04 car it's funny to think people keep trying to throw more HP at the problem to solve it. I never got really into drag racing, but using the new RS3s as an example isn't the problem mostly with our tranny?

[Mocke]

The problem is not in horse power. Its in the tranny. Thats a known fact.
USPs car is hardly to compare to. Its a purpose built drag car.
What do we have left?
Phills 10.1 and lots of 10.7 cars.
770s with E85 n Meth can easy make 700+ whp. With 01 tranny out of the equation beating 10.7 should be done in a bad try.

[VR6Bomber]

Are we now referring to the manual shift as a 'problem'?




If so, I'm going back to MG forever, where people still shift their cars!
/Get off my lawn!

[csobel]

The problem is not in horse power. Its in the tranny. Thats a known fact.
USPs car is hardly to compare to. Its a purpose built drag car.
What do we have left?
Phills 10.1 and lots of 10.7 cars.
770s with E85 n Meth can easy make 700+ whp. With 01 tranny out of the equation beating 10.7 should be done in a bad try.

Has anyone seen improvements going to a different manual tranny like the 0A3 or TDI or other?

[Alchemy]

This has perturbed me for some time now. I mean we are talking about what is arguably one of the most, if not the most, notorious AWD platform in the car world yet hearing of 10s with power levels well in access of 700whp is rare. Is this because the people dropping the dough to use take the 2.7t don't care enough about it to keep breaking shit from hard launches or is it because the gearing ratios are just not up to snuff for superior 1/4 times? Perhaps a mixture of both?

Personally I like roll racing.

[S4James]

on a roll i beat a mid 10s dsg car... but I cant do better than mid to low 11s

transmission is poor.

[kramrs2]

The 01E, specially with the 2.7 powerband and the stock gear ratios are the problem in my opinion.
There is a guy in Poland I think, that is running low 9 on a single 2.7 with an auto gearbox. And its not that powerful. He was running low 10s with 600hp. NOT whp.

[landfill]

It’s not the tranny itself but
the gearing. You can buy
different ratios from Europe
or a tdi box for starters but
the ones that are really quick
are the straight cut custom gears.

Also a lot of the drag guys weld
the center diff and are using LSD
or lockers front and rear.

A quick example of the gearing problem
is how quick you have to shift out of
1st after launching out the hole. Also
for people that are up there in numbers
they end up having to shift into 5th gear
right before the traps which shave a few
10th’s or more off your times.

On factory drivetrain you will blow diffs,
snap axles & cv’s, chip 1st & 2nd gear,
lose synchros, and much more before
having to worry about any of that though.

[landfill]

@Mocke I thought philips car
went high 9’s already. That
10.1 pass was awhile ago and
seems rather low for 1200-1300
CHP?

[Mocke]

He did 10.1 officialy and 9.9 unofficially with old tte950 setup.

Haven’t seen any 1/4 times with latest 12-1300setup besides 341khp/ 1/2 mile.

Seen they are aiming at 14-1500 with new sleeved block now.

[Mocke]

@VR6Bomber There is nothing else here but proper manual in all 3 cars i own. Wouldent have it other way.

But! Manual shifter is a Slowdown compared to DSGs and getting fast 1/4.

[Drehmoment]

He did 10.1 officialy and 9.9 unofficially with old tte950 setup.

Haven’t seen any 1/4 times with latest 12-1300setup besides 341khp/ 1/2 mile.

Seen they are aiming at 14-1500 with new sleeved block now.

The LImo was never a 1/4 build, ever, those runs were for fun but the entire set up was always geared , literally, (has straight cut gears) for Vmax or high end acceleration .

The current build goal is to reach 400km/h plus......that is 249 miles per hour.

[landfill]

I’d love to see a b5 going 250mph.
It’d be cool to see him going up
against Jeff Garners urs4. I hope
Philip goes to Santa Poda too. I’d
like to see him shatter some v6 twin
turbo records.

@vr6bomber Ha I feel the same. The
guys over on MG would never consider
driving a DSG or doing a DSG swap lol.

I’m only considering a b8.5 or b9 s4
in DSG as my daily. Maybe I’m getting
old that I don’t want to sit in rush hour
and row gears.

[james 408]

Are we now referring to the manual shift as a 'problem'?




If so, I'm going back to MG forever, where people still shift their cars!
/Get off my lawn!

agreed. I'm same with launch control though. At some point you're just a passenger on an engineering exercise. You listen to the hardcore drag guys and it's about tweaking the software, not anything he did wrong. bleh. CVT this thing at 7 grand, press the launch button... and this is a sport?

I'm not sure I understand the swap/lightweight rules either, versus transmission is somehow different. It all seems arbitrary. Imho you've violated it being a b5 s4 the second you changed anything, including the k03. From there it's just arbitrary, and without some desire to level competition, or set some speed/price ratio that might be relevant to a consumer, I don't understand why anyone would care.

i mean a top fuel car has no radiator, no transmission, and a multiplate clutch system controls power delivery, and the clutches tend to fuse themselves together after a run. It's absurdity, and wholly uninteresting once you've figured out how to engineer it. Bringing this crap to our platform? bleh. why bother.

Speed per dollar. Speed per practicality. And what I view as king: Smiles per dollar. And yeah it's slightly cool to see a b5 shell haul, but imho, speed isn't king. Someone gets a k03 car running 11s is kinda cool, arguably cooler than cvt 9 second turd nobody wants for any other reason than a drag run.

How these things should be discussed:
https://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...b-4sec-0-to-60
(and yes they're wrong about the '60 or 0-60 if he's thinking of the same video, the OP was right about ~4 sec 0-60 -- it was a budget build on slicks if it's the same basic setup I've seen come accross the platform once or twice. Drag times are significantly dictated by your '60 foot on low hp / high grip cars, almost entirely in fact absent some atmospheric/software/shifting anomaly. Driving the wheels off a k03 at ~12 sec from the videos I've seen in the past, for the same price as the turbo swap. Not a 1/4 mi guy in particular ($ and arbitrary), but impressive stuff, and looks fun.

You want a monster? well don't even buy an s4 shell, but if you do, don't use any of it. can be done pretty cheap.

[csobel]

agreed. I'm same with launch control though. At some point you're just a passenger on an engineering exercise. You listen to the hardcore drag guys and it's about tweaking the software, not anything he did wrong. bleh. CVT this thing at 7 grand, press the launch button... and this is a sport?

I'm not sure I understand the swap/lightweight rules either, versus transmission is somehow different. It all seems arbitrary. Imho you've violated it being a b5 s4 the second you changed anything, including the k03. From there it's just arbitrary, and without some desire to level competition, or set some speed/price ratio that might be relevant to a consumer, I don't understand why anyone would care.

i mean a top fuel car has no radiator, no transmission, and a multiplate clutch system controls power delivery, and the clutches tend to fuse themselves together after a run. It's absurdity, and wholly uninteresting once you've figured out how to engineer it. Bringing this crap to our platform? bleh. why bother.

Speed per dollar. Speed per practicality. And what I view as king: Smiles per dollar. And yeah it's slightly cool to see a b5 shell haul, but imho, speed isn't king. Someone gets a k03 car running 11s is kinda cool, arguably cooler than cvt 9 second turd nobody wants for any other reason than a drag run.

How these things should be discussed:
https://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...b-4sec-0-to-60
(and yes they're wrong about the '60 or 0-60 if he's thinking of the same video, the OP was right about ~4 sec 0-60 -- it was a budget build on slicks if it's the same basic setup I've seen come accross the platform once or twice. Drag times are significantly dictated by your '60 foot on low hp / high grip cars, almost entirely in fact absent some atmospheric/software/shifting anomaly. Driving the wheels off a k03 at ~12 sec from the videos I've seen in the past, for the same price as the turbo swap. Not a 1/4 mi guy in particular, but impressive stuff, and looks fun.

I agree it’s arbitrary... unless there is a sanctioning body that’s establishing the rules. I have to disagree that top fuel dragsters are “crap”... building the fastest thing on earth is not a small feat and the level of engineering and development that goes into them is very high. Not to mention the skill to drive them repeatedly without taking flight and cratering.

[james 408]

Agreed, doing 4 seconds would be fun even as a passenger. But it scales as you go through the NHRA ranks. Shape, do I press a button to shift, do I have to moderate anything at all? I'm saying a 9 second cvt with an s4 shell and auto launch is a turd. Maybe at full weight that's impressive as an engineering feat, but... what are you doing, and why.

Not that even that doesn't make sense if you want to beat/surprise street cars consistantly, maybe that's fun (it is, it just gets old). Just saying you gotta determine what you're trying to do before you determine what you're trying to build/compare. Budget? Skill? Street legal everywhere? Faster than ___? Made by who? all valid/arbitrary points people made well before I did. And if you want some degree of vanity, you need to tick off the popular ones. At least enough for somebody to rightly say: you don't like the hannover limo, usp (10 years ago?) or the alm brothers are dope? What an idiot.

[landfill]

The sad truth is that when you’re
trying to be the fastest the only way
to achieve certain goals is by going
Auto. If it’s strictly a sanctioned drag
car I wouldn’t care but if it’s something
I will drive on the street and at the track
for me it has to be manual.

The fastest 6 speed Supra runs like an
8.5 in the 1/4 and that’s with a robotic
skilled driver. All the TH400 and power
glide Supras are all in the 7’s and lower.

I’m pretty sure the Puerto Rican’s with the
2jz corolla drag car are in the 5’s. I forgot
if they’re el Freddie or del otro I forgot
their names.

I’m more for trying to push the limits of
a 6 speed rather than going Auto any day.
It just sucks all the manufacturers are phasing
them out.

James what vanity? Are you saying you don’t
like people who push the envelope with these
cars? If you don’t approve of it then we have
to agree with? We’re losers for admiring these
cars?

[VR6Bomber]

This might be a whole other can of worms, however.
Technology is great right?,
It saves lives and can accomplish the menial tasks and allows us the time to do more important things and so forth...


Does a DSG 'enhance' the driving experience because its performance is 'faster', or is it contributing to the loss of 'essential' skills?

Can you truly have a motorsportman who doesn't even need to know how to drive a manual?




Lets send a self-driving tesla down the track and just cut out the human and shifting 'problems' altogether..!

[james 408]

James what vanity?

No I just recognize we're all vain to a degree, myself included.

So just like part of the appeal of an audi is its reputation/respect from others, so too would that influence my build choices. And aligning with others' tastes is something one should consider under than umbrella.

It's all part of my philosophical math as to what arbitrary rules a fast b5 needs to adhere to... if others don't agree well then consensus is you've failed at the task :)

For me, and apparently vr6, maintaining driver input is paramount, for others it's the amount of original components (some more than others). So either you've got to be the fastest outright by strapping an audi badge onto a drag car, or you've got to play a bit of arbitrary to carve your niche fastest.

I think the reality is, if you take an s4 shell, and crack into the 7's, I don't care what's powering it or what it weighs, I might take a pot shot at you, but at the end of the day I'm going to have to shutup and admit that's pretty cool, and if someone wants to argue it's no longer a b5 let em, but it'll pass the duck test (looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, it's a duck). Same thing if you take a ko3 car into the 10s.

[landfill]

Me personally I wish technology
froze in the early 2,000’s. This shit
I see people use nowadays is completely
unnecessary IMO. I don’t need Alexa,
FaceTime, self driving cars, refrigerators
with screens, garbage cans that talk to
me. The new generation can save all of that.

[Mocke]

As it has become nowadays with all RS3s MQBs, TTRs etc... doing some crazy times, i think the grandfathers of 1/4 would turn in their graves.
Its not a driver skill any longer, sadly.

[slowSfaux]

Me personally I wish technology
froze in the early 2,000’s. This shit
I see people use nowadays is completely
unnecessary IMO. I don’t need Alexa,
FaceTime, self driving cars, refrigerators
with screens, garbage cans that talk to
me. The new generation can save all of that.

Haha this is how I feel. Every new appliance we bring home wants to connect to our wifi. Like, wtf? You're a refrigerator... Just keep my beer cold.

[landfill]

Seriously all I need my fridge
to do is store my food and beer.
I don’t need to see through the
door, write a grocery list on a screen,
surf the web or watch tv on the
door.

What ever happened to just going
to the store and using a list or
remembering what you need. The
appliances and cars for that matter
do everything except give you a blowjob.

[xFvse]

The sad truth is that when you’re
trying to be the fastest the only way
to achieve certain goals is by going
Auto. If it’s strictly a sanctioned drag
car I wouldn’t care but if it’s something
I will drive on the street and at the track
for me it has to be manual.

The fastest 6 speed Supra runs like an
8.5 in the 1/4 and that’s with a robotic
skilled driver. All the TH400 and power
glide Supras are all in the 7’s and lower.

I’m pretty sure the Puerto Rican’s with the
2jz corolla drag car are in the 5’s. I forgot
if they’re el Freddie or del otro I forgot
their names.

I’m more for trying to push the limits of
a 6 speed rather than going Auto any day.
It just sucks all the manufacturers are phasing
them out.

James what vanity? Are you saying you don’t
like people who push the envelope with these
cars? If you don’t approve of it then we have
to agree with? We’re losers for admiring these
cars?

Dsg swap the bitch


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine

[landfill]

^^Always a possibility.
How deep are your pockets
and or skill set. Wasted
time IMO. You could probably
make a custom adapter for
a TH400 or another good
domestic tranny for less
headaches, time, and money.

If you’re interested hit up Aaron
aka speeding G60 on here. He’s
putting in a domestic auto into
his 2.0t coupe quattro drag car.

[DieselElectric]

Also
for people that are up there in numbers
they end up having to shift into 5th gear
right before the traps which shave a few
10th’s or more

This is true. I'm bouncing off the limiter across the line in 4th gear. I could shift and attain a higher mph, but would then be much further from that 10 second number.

Kind of puts me in a wierd spot. More power then is going to make the quest harder to attain unless I added a lot more power to make that final shift worthwhile.