Clutch Engagement Point Issue?

[Audiostg3]

I am hoping some of you guru's out there can help me with this and another issue that I will post separately. But first the wind up, sorry it's a bit long winded...

I Decided to do an 01E 6-spd manual swap using a SouthBend Stage 3 Daily clutch into my 2003 Allroad as part of Stage 3 K04 upgrades at a supposedly reputable Audi shop (shop A) in Denver knowing the TIP would not handle the new power. The new clutch was very difficult to use right out of the gate and most friends who drove it thought that either my hydraulic system had gone out or I had the Stage 4 Drag clutch installed by accident and not the daily.

However, the clutch engagement point slowly keeps slipping closer to the floor until I have trouble shifting gears and am forced to put my foot under the clutch and pull it up about 2-inches. At which point, the clutch catches at the very top of the pedal release and the pedal is back to full throw again. But then the whole process starts over as the engagement point slowly slips down to the floor again as the clutch throw gets progressively shorter. This makes it hard to have a consistent clutch engagement point and leaves my right foot out of sync with my left foot as I either rev too high before engagement or the engine bogs down and even stalls when engagement point is near the floor. Also, upon startup when the clutch in engaging near the floor, I have had issues backing out of my garage downhill into the street when the brake pedal feels very hard and either I pump it about 5 or 6 times before it bites properly or I have to grab the e-brake to keep from hitting a neighbor coming down the street.

This is all very frustrating and has been going on for 18-months now (well maybe only 12-months as the other 6 months it was in/out of shop A while they kept trying to resolve my lingering build issues on the AR). The Audi shop A has noted the clutch and braking issues with me and at first I was charged for replacing the slave cylinder and adding braided SS lines. This did not work. I had so many issues with my Stage 3 build that they were fixing other things and claimed to not notice the clutch issue most of the time. Finally, on their 5th time trying to fix the clutch issue, they charged me to replace my master cylinder. It seemed great when I picked it up and I felt about 25% less pedal force on the clutch, so I was optimistic. But this still did not work as the same problems started coming back a couple days later. So I have now paid for 2 master cylinders, 2 slave cylinders, and the new braided SS lines that has not fixed my problem and shop A is increasingly blowing me off even though they offered a 3-yr / 36,000 mile warranty on their service.

There were still other unresolved issues with my tune and Shop A was also telling me I had to pay to replace new parts that came with a lifetime warranty. So sensing something was 'fishy in Denver', I went to another reputable Audi/Porsche shop (Shop B) in town to have them do an oil change and inspection of my build before asking them to resolve the lingering issues. They noticed something not right with the clutch and noted that my tune was far from optimal even before I asked them to look at the problems.

Shop B did a little homework and concluded that the clutch pedal assembly must have been from a B5 S4 or early model A6, but this is different than the allroad clutch pedal assembly that has a longer throw and needs a different master cylinder available directly from Audi in Germany.

So my big question is...Has anyone heard of this or dealt with this clutch issue before?

Shop A is claiming they installed the correct parts, has now decided to stop honoring their warranty (the one they sold me on why I should use them in the first place) and won't sit down to talk out the couple remaining issues. But before I spend yet more money on shop B to fix this, I want to know if it will truly fix the issue.

So much bad advice, money and time wasted so far that I wanted opinions of some AZ c5 A6 & AR guru's who are not trying to make $$$ off me. I have loved this car since the first time I set eyes on it 16 years ago, but this once in a lifetime build now has me so broke that I am starting to think about selling a kidney from one of my kids on the black market to stay financially solvent. Please help.

[johnk]

Shop B may be right, but maybe something else is wrong. The clue is that everything was OK for awhile with new master and slave. I had a clutch problem with my 01 2.7 sedan. Slave started leaking and had to pump up or engagement was at floor. New slave put in...blew immediately. Ended up replacing clutch. Shop found all sorts of gunk on shaft that made disengagement difficult, besides worn out disk. My clutch was S4 and had about 180k miles on it. My experience with clutches on other cars has been that clutch gets gradually stiffer with wear as pressure plate adjusts.

Since your clutch is new, they probably cleaned and lubed the shaft with anti-seize. Regardless, I'm thinking that either the disk is binding on the shaft or the wrong disk(too thin). Also the pressure plate may be screwed up. You will probably have to pull the trans and see what's up with the clutch, ugh.

[chris86vw]

Shop B did a little homework and concluded that the clutch pedal assembly must have been from a B5 S4 or early model A6, but this is different than the allroad clutch pedal assembly that has a longer throw and needs a different master cylinder available directly from Audi in Germany.

100% sure that while there may be different parts.. that this has nothing to do with what you are describing.

If you are losing return pressure and need to reach down and pull the pedal back up there is a problem in the hydraulic system that has nothing to do with a possible difference in pedal throw.




Bracket for clutch pedal is identical for B5s and most c5s, there is a change to an L from the R suffix that doesn't supersede however....


Slave cylinder part numbers are identical

Pedal is the same for all

Master cylinder is identical for all.

With all that being the same the bracket doesn't matter.. Shop A couldn't have installed the wrong parts.

[Audiostg3]

Thanks for responses. That gives me something to think about and discuss with shop B.

I also spoke to the owner of another shop C today about my woes and he said that while he hasn't major mods to the c5 AR platform in almost 5 years, that he remembers some difference in the air vacuum setup between the TIP and 6-spd manual. Does that possible difference ring a bell with anybody?

As for the unfortunate need to pull the Trans and inspect the clutch...it seems I have to do this anyway as the passenger side K04 turbo just blew last Friday.

Actually it is the second one to blow in 15,000 miles since the upgrades and my other issue I was going to post about separately. The shop A warrantied it the first time and now is telling me to pound sand and suddenly claims that the parts on my build (the ones that they recommended to me) went too far beyond OEM. So, there is another very expensive endeavor to correct on top of the clutch issue.

Everyone tells me to sell the thing, but I wouldn't get a quarter for every dollar I put in it. Besides, I love so much that I just can't let go. Especially that Stage 3 boost which my kids call 'Super Bonzai Power!' So I will endeavor to just try one more time to fix my hot mess of a wagon in order to keep my mid-life crisis alive. But man it sure has decimated my financial safety net!

[chris86vw]

I also spoke to the owner of another shop C today about my woes and he said that while he hasn't major mods to the c5 AR platform in almost 5 years, that he remembers some difference in the air vacuum setup between the TIP and 6-spd manual. Does that possible difference ring a bell with anybody?

There are and I was wondering if that was related to your power brake issues.


PM the shops you are dealing with if you don't mind.

[m_haiser]

you have a hydraulic leak.

[Audiostg3]

But if it is a leak, is must be a mysterious one as there is no evidence of leaks and hasn't lost any fluid in a year???

Guess, I'll find out next week when we rip this bitch apart again to R&R turbos.

[johnk]

Blown master cyl. seals typically show no external leaks. Just internal fluid churning. Leak at slave will be small volume and hard to see. When my slave blew, the leak was into the trans bell housing. My slave failed over 6 weeks and the fluid level dropped only about 1/8". When you pull the trans, put a new slave and master in.

Your current clutch is requiring way too much pressure to disengage. My guess is that you will have to replace clutch. Also, make sure the pressure plate is correct. I personally would put in an RS4 clutch. Mine lasted nearly 200k miles. Was a bit stiffer disengaging than stock.

Your turbo issues sound unusual. My stage 1 car has original K03's at 290k miles. Still blowing the doors off. You could have a bad tune. I personally would get a commercial tune rather than something concocted by a shop. Good luck.

[Audiostg3]

Johnk - Thanks for inputs! I guess we will have to do full clutch system inspection when we get back into the shop in a couple weeks as I had to give shop A 10-day notice per CO vehicle Repair act to correct or have it done at Shop B and then try to collect in court.

But both the slave and master were replaced since this started happening. So I wonder if something could make them blow twice?

Tune was a Stukler stage 3- tune at first before the intake and injectors were installed, then Shop A apparently put another 'custom' stage 3 tune on it RIGHT before it blew the first time. I deduced this as when Shop A would not adjust tune anymore, went over to shop B to see tech who left shop A and had worked on my car and had first contacted Stukler about the tune. He contacted Stukler who said he was surprised that no revisions to the base file were ever requested from him. So shop B had Stukler make a four revisions to help dial it in and the power difference was significantly noticeable. But as far as I know Stukler has an excellent reputation from folks on the AZ boards.

Turbo issue at this point is suspected to be due to lack of oiling issue. BW wouldn't warranty the first set due to lack of journal bearing lubrication on passenger side turbo. I had been told as part of build turbo oil feed/return lines would be replaced and found out after the build that this was not done and requested I had it again, but all shop A did was replace the oil return seal that was slowly leaking and first turbo failed right after the full Stage 3 upgrades. Then second turbo lasted about 10k miles before it blew again on the same side.

Hence at this point, it is highly suspected (99%) that the issue is due to oil feed lines being coked up a bit and limiting oil flow to lubricate bearings and they both overheated. But once we get in there a detailed analysis/autopsy will be done to determine what is going on with both turbos and clutch and the first thing to get replaced is the oil feed lines. Hopefully, not much else will need replacing. However, this is an Audi with a fickle tempernment so who knows how much lighter my wallet will become.

[johnk]

What could make the clutch master and slave blow twice is excessive pressure required to disengaged clutch. Until you fix the cause, you'll keep blowing cylinders. re tune: I'm not familiar with Stukler. When I referred to commercial tune, I meant APR or GIAC, not a small shop. Your tune could be fine...and the least of your worries.

[Audiostg3]

Aha...I could see how that makes sense and maybe the clutch was installed wrong from the get go.

Will be interested to see what it looks like when we get in there, but obviously need to pull everything apart and inspect in detail related to clutch & turbos. Then unfortunately, it seems I will need to get an affidavit from the lead mechanic at Shop B as to diagnosis for when I go to court to try and recoup my costs.

Yeah, I really love the RS4 clutch too as it shifts so crisp and smooth. But the Southbend Stage 3 Daily was recommended to me by Shop A as being able to handle the full Stage 3 power of around 480 ft-lbs at the crank. Compared to RS4 clutch, the pedal effort on my SB clutch was nearly 2X of the RS4 when I would have expected it to be like 15% heavier feel. Heck, it is so heavy that in Denver rush hour stop and go traffic on I-25, I have had lactic acid build up so bad that I could barely use my left leg and even used my right leg on a couple occasions.

This has been a long, painful and expensive process. I thought I had tried to do it right and replaced almost everything under the hood except rebuild the top/bottom end of the engine. If I had know apriori there would be so much trouble getting a stable build, then I would not have done it. But now I can't afford to back out. Besides, when it does run, the power is pretty amazing and seems to satisfy my mid-life crisis! At least until I lose my license

[johnk]

Disengagement pedal feel should be close to RS4. I would contact South Bend and get a statement from them on clutch pedal effort.