Staggered tires and AWD

[omniphil]

Hi Guys,

Something I have never understood about staggered tires on an AWD car.

I know the tire width doesn't really matter as long as the height is the same so front and rears rotate at the same speed. But with our staggered setup the rear tires are half inch taller that the fronts, So the fronts are rotating faster than the rears, wouldn't that put some extra stress on the center diff?

[Potatohead_RS3]

Well first off there is no center diff, just a haldex unit.

Second the original RO2 tires are sized so they are very close to same height, this is why you are finding some guys complaining of very easy to trigger traction control when they change to another brand.

[r26372]

Also this setup is done to allow the back end to be a bit more lively when cornering. Won't be like a rwd M2, but would be even less fun with square setup.


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[omniphil]

Well first off there is no center diff, just a haldex unit.

Second the original RO2 tires are sized so they are very close to same height, this is why you are finding some guys complaining of very easy to trigger traction control when they change to another brand.

Ok, but there has to be something rotating at different speeds in the drive line somewhere?

Hmm, I was planning on switching to Pilot Sports when the PZeros wear out (Which seems like will be quickly)

[sti-tom]

Hi Guys,

Something I have never understood about staggered tires on an AWD car.

I know the tire width doesn't really matter as long as the height is the same so front and rears rotate at the same speed. But with our staggered setup the rear tires are half inch taller that the fronts, So the fronts are rotating faster than the rears, wouldn't that put some extra stress on the center diff?

I found the big height difference to be alarming at first as well, especially considering the fronts will wear at a faster rate then the rears making it even more then a .5" it starts out at. This would have caused some massive issues on my STI or GTR, but it is a lot more acceptable with the Haldexs these things have. To even it out as much as possible for my racing set of wheels/tires, I went with a 265FR and 235R to get the difference down to .1".

[Potatohead_RS3]

Ok, but there has to be something rotating at different speeds in the drive line somewhere?

Hmm, I was planning on switching to Pilot Sports when the PZeros wear out (Which seems like will be quickly)

Haldex is basically a unit with clutches inside at the rear diff that lock and unlock (or anywhere in between) according to what the computer is telling it to do, it is constantly adjusting, some differential front to rear is not only ok, but normal. They always have to allow some wiggle room to allow for tire wear and what not as well.

Like sti-tom said the easy fix is to put a 265 tire on the front when you replace them, but I'd also have to check how many will work on a (stock) 8.5" wheel. Personally I will probably stick with 255 and if I have problems just turn the TC into sport mode more often.

Also FWIW I had ~7300 miles on my tires when I took them off for winter and the front are like 90% pooched. lol

[omniphil]

Haldex is basically a unit with clutches inside at the rear diff that lock and unlock (or anywhere in between) according to what the computer is telling it to do, it is constantly adjusting, some differential front to rear is not only ok, but normal. They always have to allow some wiggle room to allow for tire wear and what not as well.

Like sti-tom said the easy fix is to put a 265 tire on the front when you replace them, but I'd also have to check how many will work on a (stock) 8.5" wheel. Personally I will probably stick with 255 and if I have problems just turn the TC into sport mode more often.

Also FWIW I had ~7300 miles on my tires when I took them off for winter and the front are like 90% pooched. lol

So then I am guessing that most of the time the rear tires are disconnected from drivetrain, so then the speed difference is not an issue most of the time.

7300 miles on the stock tires, yikes, I'm hoping to get to November with mine then put winter tires on the stock rims.
I wonder what size people are going with for winter tires on staggered rims.

[defau1t]

I had a nail+leak in one rear tire, Audi just replaced (under tire warranty) the one tire yesterday. If the other side is worn (12k miles), should they have replaced both rears?

[Potatohead_RS3]

You never want side to side to be more than about 3/32 different at most, so I would say yes they definitely should have done both. And that rep there needs a smack because that's an easy sale for the second one

[S3DUDE]

I had a legitimate staggered AWD car from factory (Porsche 911/964 Carrera 4 Cabrio) and the car came with 205s(Front) and optional 255(Rears). One time I put 215s in the front and the car made all kinds of grinding noises and it will shake bad. It was undriveable pass 15mph and had to be towed to the factory just to find out that the AWD system was very delicate. If I were you I would use the tire rack calculator and pick something equivalent in diameter.

Out of of 16 or 17 sports AWD cars that I had the mismatch staggered set up is the only one that gave me issues. My current RS3 does not have the staggered wheels.

[hilltop804]

Ok, but there has to be something rotating at different speeds in the drive line somewhere?

Hmm, I was planning on switching to Pilot Sports when the PZeros wear out (Which seems like will be quickly)

Just make sure you do research, I believe Michelin tires were one of the brands that had TC issues when staggered.

[Skyler@Achtuning]

Haldex is basically a unit with clutches inside at the rear diff that lock and unlock (or anywhere in between) according to what the computer is telling it to do, it is constantly adjusting.

Just to touch on this subject, the rear haldex filter on the MQB cars gets clogged up with clutch material and debris extremely quickly (~15k miles). This can lead to loss of rear differential function if not addressed. Fortunately the servicing is pretty straightforward and inexpensive, just be sure to service it regularly.

[BzzzBom]

So, what are you all replacing the staggered tires with when the OE ones are toast? What brand and sizes did you use and did you have any issues?

[SolarRS3]

I know guys have had problem with mp4s but after contacting tirerack and verifying circumference 255/30 235/35 they said it would be no issue. At the moment i have 225/40 blizzak at 26.1 circumference with no TC issues.

[Potatohead_RS3]

I know guys have had problem with mp4s but after contacting tirerack and verifying circumference 255/30 235/35 they said it would be no issue. At the moment i have 225/40 blizzak at 26.1 circumference with no TC issues.

It’s not the diamter itself the problem, it’s the difference front and rear. 255/30R19 is definitely shorter than 235/35 in pretty much all cases, by about 1/2”. The easy way around it is to run with the TC in sport most of them time or you could possibly even go to a 265/30 in the front.

[javbomb]

I swapped my staggered tyres to Michelin PS4S 245/35 squared and the car has never been better.

This definitely has less issues than the factory Pirellis for me. I used to have the TC light blinking all the damn time even from the first month of ownership. Straight line 50km/hr in 3rd and it would blink at art throttle. Much, much better now. My car hated the OE staggered tyres.

[r26372]

I swapped my staggered tyres to Michelin PS4S 245/35 squared and the car has never been better.

This definitely has less issues than the factory Pirellis for me. I used to have the TC light blinking all the damn time even from the first month of ownership. Straight line 50km/hr in 3rd and it would blink at art throttle. Much, much better now. My car hated the OE staggered tyres.

Odd, when I'm in Sport mode and on staggered with stage 1+ tune I rarely get a traction light. Certainly not in 3rd gear. Not saying stock tires are great, but very strange you are get lights blinking in 3rd gear at part throttle.


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[javbomb]

Odd, when I'm in Sport mode and on staggered with stage 1+ tune I rarely get a traction light. Certainly not in 3rd gear. Not saying stock tires are great, but very strange you are get lights blinking in 3rd gear at part throttle.


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Yeah it's a classic case of something completely other than a real traction issue. Its much more something like rolling diameter.

Stage 1+ myself now, and same conditions the car will pull properly for the most part.

[CW98]

I swapped my staggered tyres to Michelin PS4S 245/35 squared and the car has never been better.

This definitely has less issues than the factory Pirellis for me. I used to have the TC light blinking all the damn time even from the first month of ownership. Straight line 50km/hr in 3rd and it would blink at art throttle. Much, much better now. My car hated the OE staggered tyres.

Question on the 245/35's - are you using these on the stock staggered wheels? Was wondering if the 245 is a bit of a stretch for the rear 8.0 width.

[BzzzBom]

Arened the wheels the same? I thought the difference was only in the tires. Also, does Audi alter the suspension for the staggered configuration?

[javbomb]

Question on the 245/35's - are you using these on the stock staggered wheels? Was wondering if the 245 is a bit of a stretch for the rear 8.0 width.

Yes and no issue at all.

[TK42ONE]

I’m runnning 265/35r18 front and 245/40r18 rear with no issues. They .4” different in diameter or 1.6%


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[CW98]

Arened the wheels the same? I thought the difference was only in the tires. Also, does Audi alter the suspension for the staggered configuration?

If you have the Dynamic package with the 255 front tires, the front wheels are 8.5 width to accommodate and rears 8.0.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes and no issue at all.

Good to know, thanks.

[Canvasoso]

I swapped my staggered tyres to Michelin PS4S 245/35 squared and the car has never been better.

This definitely has less issues than the factory Pirellis for me. I used to have the TC light blinking all the damn time even from the first month of ownership. Straight line 50km/hr in 3rd and it would blink at art throttle. Much, much better now. My car hated the OE staggered tyres.

Are you using the stock wheels?

Never mind, just saw someone else asked the same. I may go with this setup. I currently have the PS4's with the stock staggered sizes and I have to drive in sport mode all the time or the TC light would come up constantly on my Uni Stage 1+. I also get some weird vibrations during certain torque accelerations and the car pulling to one side when letting off the gas after acelerating, I'm guessing quattro trying to correct some variation on rolling diameter that may be computing and feels like all of the sudden getting hit by a side wind.

Do you have pictures that you could share of your square tire setup on the stock staggered wheels?

Thanks!

[javbomb]

Are you using the stock wheels?

Never mind, just saw someone else asked the same. I may go with this setup. I currently have the PS4's with the stock staggered sizes and I have to drive in sport mode all the time or the TC light would come up constantly on my Uni Stage 1+. I also get some weird vibrations during certain torque accelerations and the car pulling to one side when letting off the gas after acelerating, I'm guessing quattro trying to correct some variation on rolling diameter that may be computing and feels like all of the sudden getting hit by a side wind.

Do you have pictures that you could share of your square tire setup on the stock staggered wheels?

Thanks!

You will still get TC intervention due to tune, but only on WOT for me. I DONT get it in a straight line at ridiculously low speed part throttle on smooth road anymore, so I would almost say TC is now working as intended since the rolling diameters are finally properly matched (my theory). So if I am going to drive hard, I will still use TC Sport. I absolutely dont get any strange quattro crap you just mentioned though.

Here are pics

This is 10 Front / 10 Rear Spacers

[Canvasoso]

You will still get TC intervention due to tune, but only on WOT for me. I DONT get it in a straight line at ridiculously low speed part throttle on smooth road anymore, so I would almost say TC is now working as intended since the rolling diameters are finally properly matched (my theory). So if I am going to drive hard, I will still use TC Sport. I absolutely dont get any strange quattro crap you just mentioned though.

Here are pics

This is 10 Front / 10 Rear Spacers

Thanks for the pics. That looks great. It actually looks very similar to the stock Pirelli's where the fronts had a bit of a stretched loo compared to the rears. I'll go this route when the time comes to change my staggered PS4's.

[TheContrarian]

Certainly the 245/35/19 size at all 4 corners looks more natural. It doesn't look like the front wheels are riding on a rubber band, and the wheel well is properly filled up.

[NoogMan]

Happens to me a lot.....staggered with Contis. Have about 1k miles on the Contis. I may mess with pressures a bit....mainly drop them from the 44/39 they are currently at.

[TZilla]

I had the traction interference issue with the OEM tires/staggered wheels in 3rd at times as well when traction couldn't have been an issue. I just always drove with ESC full off.

[BzzzBom]

Is ANYONE happy or at least content with OEM staggered Perelli tires?

[besttom]

Is ANYONE happy or at least content with OEM staggered Perelli tires?

Mine are shot… I'm at 13k miles and can't get a straight answer on what to replace them with… I want to go PS4S, but hear all the traction control issues

[NoSuchSol]

I swapped my staggered tyres to Michelin PS4S 245/35 squared and the car has never been better.

This definitely has less issues than the factory Pirellis for me. I used to have the TC light blinking all the damn time even from the first month of ownership. Straight line 50km/hr in 3rd and it would blink at art throttle. Much, much better now. My car hated the OE staggered tyres.

Do you think a 245/40 would be too large squared?

[whitewaterguy87]

I see a lot of people going PS4S, Would a Pilot Sport Cup 2 be a better option with the better grip?

[Potatohead_RS3]

I see a lot of people going PS4S, Would a Pilot Sport Cup 2 be a better option with the better grip?

For street driving, no

[whitewaterguy87]

For street driving, no

I thought the newer Corvette Zo6 comes OEM but I really don't know much at all with tires and set-up!

[Potatohead_RS3]

I thought the newer Corvette Zo6 comes OEM but I really don't know much at all with tires and set-up!

Lots of cars that will/should see track time have them. Compared to a normal summer tire they will offer more dry grip but less wet grip and also last half as long, and make a lot more noise. Plus if you are exceeding the limits of regular summer tires on the street you are driving like a maniac.

[whitewaterguy87]

Lots of cars that will/should see track time have them. Compared to a normal summer tire they will offer more dry grip but less wet grip and also last half as long, and make a lot more noise. Plus if you are exceeding the limits of regular summer tires on the street you are driving like a maniac.

I see what your saying! What about drag racing or really good 0-60, on stage 2 and up cars? Will the Michelin PS4S still be a great all purpose tire or should someone with those plans getting a set just for the drag strip? I know YouTube can be very misleading but it looks as if some people are running Hoosier Drag radials as DD?

What kind of mileage difference are we talking about with Drag radials vs something like the PS4S

[Potatohead_RS3]

I see what your saying! What about drag racing or really good 0-60, on stage 2 and up cars? Will the Michelin PS4S still be a great all purpose tire or should someone with those plans getting a set just for the drag strip? I know YouTube can be very misleading but it looks as if some people are running Hoosier Drag radials as DD?

What kind of mileage difference are we talking about with Drag radials vs something like the PS4S

Drag strip use only, better off to get a second set of wheels with drag radials. It will be cheaper in the end by not wearing your sticky tires on the street, and it will also perform better.

[eastsvx]

Hi all:

I went from the staggered setup to a square 245/35/19 on stock wheels (8.5” W on front, 8” W on rear). Love the restored AWD balanced feedback from the steering. One thing I noticed is when driving to a slow roll, the transmission does not shift into first gear until the lesser end of 4 mph. I will pull form this speed in second gear with a slight vibration as if a manual car was at a low speed in a high gear. Any way to fix this? Hard reset?

Also - When I’m in manual mode and driving more spiritedly, the car shifts into gears with more of “drop in gear” feedback, rather than the old, smooth punch it had before the tires were switched. Is this a calibration issue with the transmission?

[ThunderDent]

I’m wondering about tire sizes as well.

I’d like to still run staggered set up, but do a little more meaty tire front and rear in the same proportions.
I’m going to run 11mm spacers at all 4 corners I believe to go with it. I like an aggressive flush look.

Thoughts on what would work best?